Two Old Bitches: Stories from Women who Reimagine, Reinvent and Rebel

American sculptor Jeanne Silverthorne, 73, is an “artist’s artist” known for cast rubber pieces and installations drawn from her studio, turning everyday objects and people into “metaphors for the inevitability of age and decay, …tempered with humor, hope and humanity.” (For photos of a favorite work of ours, Banshee: Self-Portrait at 73, see our website and social media.) She has showed her work at leading New York galleries for decades (currently at the Marc Straus Gallery) and in one-person exhibits including PS1 and the Whitney Museum in New York and the Institute of Contemporary Art in Philadelphia. Jeanne is on the faculty of the School for Visual Arts and has written extensively about art in a range of publications, most recently in the Brooklyn Rail with “Playing It Out” about aging as an artist. She is witty and wise, and surprisingly shy though you’d never guess it. More about that in our lively conversation with the delightful, insightful and gifted Jeanne Silverthorne. ------------------------------ Visit www.twooldbitches.com Follow us on Instagram @twooldbitches, Twitter @TwoOldBitches, Facebook @TwoOBPodcast Created, Produced and hosted by Joanne Sandler &  Idelisse Malavé Edited by Jeyda Bicer Social media management by Loubna Bouajaj  

You know those “aha” moments, those flashing lights of clarity, the thundering realization that you’ve met your passion? We realized that so many of the women we’ve talked with on TOB have had these at different points in their lives. And these epiphanies, turning points and serendipitous happenings continue throughout our lives. So, as we start 2023, we went back to different conversations with the extraordinary women we’ve interviewed on TOB to understand the amazingly diverse ways that epiphanies help us to turn lemons into lemonade, discover our calling, and fully own the ways that we are aging and saging. Immersing yourself in their insights and surprises may be one of the best ways to start a new year! We hope you enjoy and please let us know if you’ve had a life-changing epiphany or turning point that you’d like to share. We’d love to record it.  In this episode, we will hear from (in this order): Jennifer Finley, Chiemi Kurasawa, Lucero Gonzalez (read in English by Sandra Garcia Betancourt), Claron McFadden,Ellen Bravo, Donna Uchizono, Sandra Guzman, Isa Infante, Dina Bursztyn, Srilatha Batliwala, Nadine Hack, Trudy Berlin, Ashton Applewhite and Renata Joy. With our deep appreciation to all of them for so generously sharing their wisdom.

Gifted ceramic artists Rosanne Ebner, 67, and Liberty Valance, 73, have worked with clay for five or six decades. They say laughing that “it just happened,” yet it is clear that their art is an irresistible and abiding calling. It surfaced for Liberty in preschool where she created her first works–an elephant and ashtray she still has— and for Rosanne in high school. Liberty and Rosanne are also generous and skilled teachers. They are both instructors at the Brickhouse Ceramic Art Center, a wonderful space in Long Island City, NY, where they are longstanding members of a diverse intergenerational community of teachers, students and affiliated artists connected by craft and care, and where members are making ceramics into their nineties. Idelisse – who solidified her profound love of clay over the past 9 months at Brickhouse -- has been enthralled by the ways this community satisfies its members human need for a sense of belonging, mutual support and celebration. In our conversation, all three share the joys of losing themselves and the awareness of time when engaging deeply in creative practice. If you’re curious about what Rosanne and Liberty mean when they describe working with clay as a collaboration where often “the clay knows better” or about the story of how Liberty Valance got her name (Hint: It involves a short-lived marriage and a spiritual teacher), you’ll want to join us for a big-hearted and laughter filled conversation about art, work and life with these two dearest of friends. Check out some recent ceramic art by Rosanne, Liberty and Idelisse right here! 

Donna Uchizono is the first and only American-born choreographer of Asian ancestry to receive notable national and international recognition in the history of modern dance.  She’s received a Guggenheim and a “Bessie,” been commissioned by the likes of Mikhail Baryshnikov and Oliver Sachs, and toured her eponymous dance company around the world. We mention this first because – as you will hear in our conversation with Donna – it is a reality that she stresses not as a boast, but as an indictment of the dance field. She spotlights the difficult journey that all dancers from excluded groups confront and the importance of creating spaces of solidarity and recognition for others, especially young dancers. Donna’s poignant story of discovering that she was destined to be an abstract choreographer (not a gynecologist), her creation of a now 30-year old dance company committed to innovation and collaboration, and her decision to stop performing in her own pieces offer insights into the joys and challenges of growing up and growing older in these times. Our conversation with Donna was the third in our series of episodes with choreographers/dance artists (see Marlies Yearby and Jody Oberfelder) who re-enforce, compellingly, that getting older and bolder – even for individuals whose lives are based on extraordinary physical feats -- is a never-ending and scintillating process of discovering how to work with what we have.   Check out Donna Uchizono’s website where you will find information about performances of the Donna Uchizono Company, including upcoming pieces that she will be choreographing and presenting with the New York City Ballet in 2023.

Gutsy, vital, creative Jody Oberfelder is committed to a life of ‘becoming,’ recognizing that becoming older is also about learning to trust your voice and continue to advance. This New York-based choreographer, director and filmmaker – leading Jody Oberfelder Projects (JOP) -- considers herself ‘mid-career’ at 68. She continues to challenge herself to create live performances that are inclusive and collective and that center each participant’s experience (check out her performances of Walking to Present in Brooklyn and Life Travelers on bridges in Munich, London and Philadelphia). She’s loved ‘making stuff up’ since childhood and continues to do so in public spaces and theaters around the world. In her words: “I think the challenges as I move forward in life and get older and older and older and older and older is not to mistrust that every wrinkle is earned.” TOB Idelisse met Jody in a Feldenkrais class and they are both passionate followers of their amazing teacher, Rebecca Davis; just as we think you’ll become passionate followers of Jody Oberfelder once you hear her illuminating and heartfelt reflections on aging, creativity, inclusivity and the importance of a daily practice.     

“I have to create, because that is an extension of my breath,” is just one of the many insights into living deeply and meaningfully as an artist that 62-year old director and choreographer extraordinaire Marlies Yearby shared during our illuminating conversation in this episode. The multiple honors she’s received include Tony and Dora-award nominations for her choreography of RENT, the Drama League Award for the Los Angeles production of RENT and critical acclaim for her company, Movin’ Spirits Dance Theater. Her activism and creativity also extend to healing and wellness as the creator of the “In Our Bones” creative process; to food activism in her newest project, Seed Awakening on the Eve of Blue, a multi-media space combining music, technology, science, voice and theater; and a recent foray into Digital Arts and the new world of Non-fungible tokens (NFTs). Her unstoppable and fearless curiosity and creativity buoyed our spirits as we know they will do for our listeners. And we trust you will not hesitate to find one of her performances, buy one of her Digital Art pieces and become as avid a Marlies Yearby follower as we have become!  Marlies is the first in our three-part series of talks with choreographer and dance artists and – wow! – what a way to begin! Stay tuned for our upcoming conversations with Jody Oberfelder and Donna Uchizono. Coming soon!!

What are you streaming these days? Two Old Bitches always wants to know, especially if you find shows that feature pithy, provocative and stereotype-busting roles for women of a certain age. Luckily, we're seeing some uptick in those (though not nearly pithy and provocative enough and mostly white women....). That's why we're back with two of our three magnificent Screen Bitches -- Debbie Zimmerman (commentator extraordinaire and fearless leader of feminist film organization Women Make Movies) and Malaga Baldi (goddess literary agent and country bumpkin) -- to explore three recent shows that really grabbed our attention. Good Luck to You Leo Grande is streaming on Hulu and features the inimitable Emma Thompson as a recently widowed woman in her fifties who hires a sex worker in search of her first orgasm. Hacks (Season 2) stars the always-mesmerizing Jean Smart -- who won her second Emmy for Hacks as lead actress in a comedy series this year -- and is streaming on HBO. And we have a lot of conflicting views and feelings about the fourth season of Borgen, a Danish political series streaming on Netflix and starring Sidse Babett Knudsen. If you want media commentary from an unapologetically old-bitch/feminist perspective (and who wouldn't??), listen to this lively episode, tune in to the shows we're talking about, and let us know what you're watching. Can't wait to hear from you! and p.s.: Screen Bitch Aruna Rao was on 'unpaid' vacation in Norway when we recorded this episode. We hope to have her back next time!

As soon as we learned we landed an interview with Judy Gold, stellar comedian, actor and writer, Two Old Bitches started grinning and giggling. What a coup! Once we actually began talking with her, we laughed out loud, and often, at her insightful zingers. Judy, whose comedic heroes are Joan Rivers and Phyllis Diller, makes you laugh, and think. Approaching 60, her many credits include: countless stand-up comedy performances; two Emmys for her work as a writer and producer on The Rosie O’Donnell Show; two off-Broadway shows, “The Judy Show: My Life as a Sitcom” and “25 Questions for a Jewish Mother;” two books, “Yes I Can Say That: When They Come for the Comedians We’re All in Trouble” and “25 Questions for a Jewish Mother;” a weekly podcast, “Kill Me Now;” and roles on television series from the more recent Better Things to Madame Secretary, 30 Rock, Law & Order, Ugly Betty” and “Sex and the City.” Why doesn’t Judy Gold have her own series? It’s past time, Hollywood! In the meantime, for a much needed dose of her edgy humor, listen to this funny episode.  (Special thanks to literary agent and Screen Bitch Malaga Baldi for putting us in touch with Judy.)

Fifteen years ago, Ayesha Pande, a successful editor with top publishers (e.g. Farrar Straus and Giroux) struck out on her own to build a mission-driven literary agency with an antiracist focus based in Harlem. Ayesha Pande Literary has flourished and is known for launching an award-winning, bestselling and inclusive list of authors, scholars, and emerging writers. Its team of almost all BIPOC women agents represent acclaimed authors such as Ibram X. Kendi (How To Be An Antiracist), Danielle Evans (The Office of Historical Corrections), Jean Chen Ho (Fiona and Jane) and Lisa Ko (The Leavers). Ayesha is on the board of the AALA (Association of American Literary Agents) where she founded the Committee on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, and helped launch the non-profit Literary Agents of Change. Entering her 60s, she is a “woman who has not yet peaked.” We are delighted to introduce you to Ayesha and her charming Jack Russells, Milo and Lola, whose occasional barking enlivened our conversation.

What does it take to be a man whom we interview on Two Old Bitches? Stephen P. Williams, 64, only the second man on our show in five years, is an excellent example of just what it takes. A journalist, author, visual artist and the creator of Stephen’s People, a newsletter on aging, he is as fascinated by getting old as we are. (Full disclosure: his piece on Old Men sex dolls in his newsletter also captured our imagination!) Stephen has written that as a boy growing up in Kansas,  he “leaned back under a cottonwood and felt wind, the sky and the leaves, all connected. That pure sensation guided everything that followed.” He has written a number of nonfiction books --Blockchain: The Next Everything is the latest-- and six as-of-yet unpublished novels. In the midst of the pandemic, he set off on a road trip captured in his video, art and word project, Postcards from Pandemic. With curiosity, thoughtfulness and wit, he brings a fresh and realistic take on aging to Stephen’s People --and did we mention he gives damn good dating advice? Listen to our conversation with Stephen and then subscribe to his weekly newsletter.

How do we respond to this political moment? Pessimism is tempting and optimism may feel foolhardy, yet a sense of possibility fueled by hope made enduring sense to us when we spoke with Lecia Brooks and Lisa Veneklasen in 2021. After the Biden/Harris victory, long-time activists Lecia and Lisa tapped into their wisdom and clear-eyed assessment of what we’re facing and what’s possible in the struggle for overdue and drastically needed social and political change. For the past 16 years, Lecia has worked at the well-known Southern Poverty Law Center, a regional and national catalyst for racial justice, most recently as Chief of Staff. She plays a key role in their work to expose and dismantle white supremacy and nationalism.  Almost 20 years ago, Lisa founded Just Associates (JASS) and recently stepped down from her role as Executive Director. JASS is a transnational feminist movement building organization that strengthens the voice, visibility and collective power of women to transform the world. Lisa and Lecia’s analysis and insights about these times -- including the power of older women to make change happen -- galvanize and provoke us to think differently about this political moment.    Learn more about this episode here!

Maya is a nationally renowned racial justice and equity activist and advocate who ran for mayor of New York City in 2021. She should have won! In our conversation with her in 2018, she shared that she was no longer an optimist, but hadn’t given up hope. She has “a passion for the possible” combined with a laser focus on fighting for our democracy. If you watch TV news (MSNBC), you likely saw her share her sharp analysis on the assault against our country’s values and heard her wise counsel on priorities for collective action, including activism on the upcoming census. Now 58, she has litigated, lobbied the U.S. Congress, and developed programs to transform structural racism in the U.S. and in South Africa.  Maya recently served as Counsel to New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio, chaired the New York City Police Department’s Civilian Complaint Review Board, founded and led the Center for Social Inclusion, and is now Senior Vice President for Social Justice at the New School. Maya's guidance, struggle and compassion in these perilous times are enough to turn these Two Old Bitches into possibilists as well. And you?  Click here for the original post.

Our conversation with activist historian and organizer, Leah Wise, now 75, originally aired in 2017. She spoke with us about the threat to democracy then which has only worsened now. She challenged us to think deeply about the responsibility of generations to carry young people forward as they step up and take over. Our conversation with Leah was rich in history and wisdom, her life reflecting the intersecting struggles and gains for racial, gender and economic justice in the Southeast of the United States and worldwide over the past 40 years. Leah offers us feisty commentary on the sexism that infused (and continues to) so many progressive movements, on the legacy of “polio personality”, and on her odyssey from civil rights activist to low-wage steel worker to leader of Southerners for Economic Justice and a network of similar groups across the Southeast. She offers heartfelt insights into the joys of paying attention to things that slipped by earlier: gardening, the feeling of the sun on your face, starting a sewing crafts business in your 70s, and the pleasures of grandchildren. And she leaves us with a resounding call: to join together to re-build the infrastructure of democracy. 

In honor of Mother's Day we are bringing back this classic from season 4. “Two of my heroes are mother and my grandmother…My mother taught me to be a woman. She was the strongest person I’ve ever met. And someday I’ll be the woman she wants me to be” - Tracy Hyter-Suffern It’s complicated. Mothers. They’re sometimes cast as heroes and role models, often as victims or villains. In almost 40 conversations with other old bitches, mothers emerge as essential to the fabric of so many parts of our histories, our present and our futures. Drawing from those conversations, we’ve pulled together a few clips to share with you, from Inca Alexandrina Mohamed or Joy Kane talking about their mother’s dreams for them or Maya Wiley talking about her fears for her teenage daughters. So, on this Mother’s Day, take a minute to listen to this episode of Two Old Bitches with a mother, a daughter or someone else who you can talk to about the place of mothers in our lives. And, consider supporting the mothers and families who have been separated at the border. Check out www.familiesbelongtogether.org and the “Until Every Family Is Reunited” campaign. This episode features: Dodo Berk (Season 1, Ep. 10), Elaine Finsilver (Season 1, Ep.06), Tracy Hyter-Suffern (Season 4, Ep. 8), Renata Joy (Season 4, Ep. 5), Joy Kane (Season 3, Ep. 10), Inca Alexandria Mohamed (Season 2, Ep. 9), Hendrica Okondo (Season 3, Ep. 8), Diane Scanlon (Season 2, Ep. 10), Hrag Vartanian (Season 4, Ep. 9) and Maya Wiley (Season 3, Ep. 7). We thank them and all of the Old Bitches who have shared their lives on our show!

We have long marveled at Ellen Bravo’s ability to balance the demands of being a feminist activist and author. Her books are driven by the same social change values and objectives that have fueled her many decades of organizing for justice and equity for women and families. She is the former director of 9to5 –yes, the group that inspired the movie– and co-founder of Family Values @ Work, a successful network of state coalitions working for family-friendly policies that have secured locally mandated paid family and medical leave for over 55 million people across the country. While working more than full-time leading these groups, she also wrote five books! Her most recent novel is Standing Up: Tales of Struggle, co-authored with her husband Larry Miller. In it they share enlivening stories about “regular people” who work hard while “caring for kids, holding relationships together, and wrestling with multiple forms of oppression” and still manage to “stand up, slow down, form unions, leave an abusive relationship, or just stir up good trouble.” Ellen, 78, recently chose to dedicate herself to writing full-time and is at work on a new novel. Pick up her latest book –it’s a great read!– or one of her earlier ones, and listen to our equally great conversation with this warm, brilliant, funny and big-hearted gender and racial justice champion. For more information about Ellen, including upcoming book tour appearances, check her website. Standing Up: Tales of Struggle is available on Amazon, as are her earlier novel, Again and Again and her most recent nonfiction book, Taking On the Big Boys: Or Why Feminism Is Good for Families, Business, and the Nation.

What a treat to talk with a fierce feminist who’s been a force of nature for more than half a century! At 71, Nadine embodies a lifelong commitment and ever-evolving talent to amplify her passion for social justice. Her volunteer work in 1964 on Shirley Chisholm’s campaign for New York State Assembly and at Women Strike for Peace with Bella Abzug immersed her in an understanding that sexism, racism, classism and militarism are inextricably linked. She’s been an intersectional organizer ever since. At 60, she left her lifetime home, New York City, and moved to a UNESCO Heritage city in Switzerland, becoming the first woman Executive-in-Residence at IMD Business School in Lausanne, Switzerland. Eleven years later, she’s still there. Nadine continues to be a “Master Bridge-Builder” as CEO of beCause Global Consulting, and senior advisor of Global Citizens Circle, as noted by her alma mater, Harvard and by Nobel Peace Laureate Desmond Tutu in the foreword to her upcoming book, The Power of Connectedness. We celebrate our sister-old-bitch, Nadine Hack, who is acutely aware of “her sacred obligation to carry the torch” as long as possible, and know our listeners will be inspired by her wisdom on voice, aging and the power of the collective.    -------- Follow Nadine Hack at:  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nadinehack Twitter: @nadinehack Instagram: @nadine.hack LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nadinehack  Forbes Councils: https://bit.ly/35rRBOT  beCause Global Consulting: https://www.because.net  Global Citizens Circle https://globalcitizenscircle.org 

Stories transport us across time and space, bring us together, help us make sense of our lives and the world, make us laugh and cry, and even change our minds. Stories fuel social change and personal change. Their power drives us, as Two Old Bitches, to collect edgy elder women’s stories to share with story-loving listeners of all genders and ages. And to discover and tell our own stories. In this episode, we each share a personal story crafted in a recent storytelling class. Yes crafted, because storytelling is an art, one that can be honed, and it’s a joy to hone it in the company of others as we did in our most recent workshop. Joanne shares “What Happens When Your Heart Really Does Belong to Daddy?” a story of gendered power dynamics in the workplace decades ago that still drives her passion for justice today. Idelisse shares “Girdles,” a childhood story of the physical and psychological constraints foisted on women and girls that shaped her, in more ways than the obvious.  You can listen to our stories on audio AND – for those who like the combined audio-visual effect – check out Idelisse and Joanne telling their stories to each other. And guess which one of us tried (with partial success) to tell her story and hula hoop at the same time? We’d love to hear from you! We are going to host a Two Old Bitches storytelling salon/class in the spring. Please let us know if you’re interested and have ideas or questions. Write to us at 2obpodcast@gmail.com and share your brilliance!  

What’s better than ‘talking shop’ with a serious and sensational sister traveler? That was the joy that TOB experienced when we interviewed Sari Botton, founder of the recently-launched substack magazine, Oldster. Oldster takes a fresh look at what it means to age at any stage of life, featuring writers of all genders and age groups. It fully reflects the brilliance and wizardry of Sari who, at 56 years old, bring decades of writing, editing and teaching experience including as former Essays Editor for Longreads; editor of the award-winning anthology Goodbye to All That: Writers on Loving and Leaving NY and its New York Times-Bestselling follow-up, Never Can Say Goodbye: Writers on Their Unshakable Love for NY. We met Sari almost ten years ago when she co-directed the upstate New York story-telling initiative TMI Project. She is a storyteller extraordinaire, a musician, a time traveler joyously struggling – like all of us – to figure out what is ‘age appropriate’ and shoring up future plans by buying lottery tickets! We hope you’ll listen in, subscribe to Oldster, listen to the Oldster podcast, and stay tuned to TOB as we continue to explore storytelling in future episodes.  

There could be no greater gift to Screen Bitches than finding the HBO-Max series Hacks, starring Jean Smart. We brought together three of our most dedicated Old Bitch streamers – Malaga Baldi (literary agent), Aruna Rao (women’s rights thinker and consultant), and Debbie Zimmerman (head of Women Make Movies and world-recognized expert on women and media) – to explore what is so powerful and ground-breaking about 69-year old Jean Smart’s mesmerizing portrayal of an aging comedian (think Joan Rivers) whose Las Vegas career is stalling.  In pairing Smart with a young comedian – played by Hannah Einbender – who is sent to freshen up Smart’s material, we see the way women of different generations confront and embody the sexism and ageism of the entertainment world. As Megan Garber wrote in The Atlantic, this is a genre-defying series, part psychodrama, part satire, sometimes an intergenerational character study and other times a classic workplace comedy. We all agreed that Emmy-winning Smart offers a “Smart-a-licious” portrayal of aging. As Debbie noted, “for God's sake, how often do you see a woman in her sixties get laid on television?” You can see Hacks on HBO-Max. It’s a subscription service, so you’ll have to pay. You can watch the first episode for free on YouTube. And, as you listen to the podcast, you’ll hear excerpts of Smart’s biting and self-effacing humor throughout. Let us know if you’ve seen movies, streaming series, podcasts or other media that you think offer unique representations of gutsy, defiant older women. Write us at 2obpodcast@gmail.com and maybe you, too, can be a Screen Bitch!

Prepare to be utterly astounded as you listen to our conversation with Isa Infante! This self-described “life force,” follows her heart and her values, wherever they take her. That means challenging good ole boys in Tennessee by running for mayor of Knoxville and as the Green Party candidate for governor. It means passing by a bar, hearing bluegrass music, and deciding to start a women’s bluegrass band, even though she could only play three chords. It means deciding, at 63, to go to law school. At 79, she is considering her next move. Three years ago, after decades in Tennessee, she decided that living in the mountains felt claustrophobic, googled “low-income senior housing on the beach” and re-located to the North Shore of Massachusetts, now waking up every morning to see a vast ocean that moves constantly. We can only imagine how the shifting sand and surf will inspire Isa’s next adventure. Music credits: Melody Walker/Front Country, Mixtapes Rebecca Frazier, 40 Blues Sierra Hull, Black River