“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

It’s been quite a year! Kelli and Nolan bare it all in their 2024 wrap-up. Get their must-read books, binge-worthy podcasts, and raw personal journeys - including Kelly's identity crisis and Nolan's toughest year yet. Plus, hear why 2025 might be the year to go 'risk on' and why your company's headcount could be holding you back. No fluff, just real talk from two HR leaders who've been there.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:53) Reflections on 2024(07:24) Best of 2024 - Books(11:13) Best of 2024 - Podcasts(14:47) Sponsor: Metaview(16:20) The Real Talk: Our Raw 2024 Stories(19:16) Bold Predictions and Why 2025 Will Hit Different(28:45) That’s a Wrap 🎁 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Are digital workers coming for your job? In this episode, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos— our resident AI expert— breaks down the rise of AI-powered SDRs and what it means for the future of work. From 11x.ai's $75M raise to replace human sales reps, to broader implications for recruiting and tech roles, discover why VCs are betting big on AI labor. This is a candid discussion about job displacement, productivity gains, and why getting your hands dirty with AI might be your best career move.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINSiadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—CHECK OUT: Metaview: https://www.metaview.ai/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:00) 11x.ai and Their Products (Alice & Mike) (02:03) Discussion of VCs' Interest in AI Labor Market (03:43) Labor vs Software Market Size Comparison (05:37) Evolution of Software Sales Models (07:18) Current State and Limitations of AI SDRs (08:15) Discussion of AI Job Displacement (09:01) Types of Roles Most Affected by AI (12:42) Historical Context of Automation in Tech (14:12) Future of Work and AI Integration (16:39) Sponsor: Metaview (17:59) Company Spending and Hiring Philosophy (20:00) Future of Recruiting and AI Integration (23:21) Historical Job Evolution and Future Opportunities (25:15) Importance of Hands-on AI Experience (26:24) Impact of AI on Engineering Productivity (27:05) AI's Effect on Recruiter Efficiency (27:53) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Ever wondered why your HR team feels like a bunch of separate countries? Tune in as Kelli and Nolan reveal why mixing your People Ops like finger paint might be the secret sauce to scaling – and why that messy feeling means you're actually crushing it.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:21) Dear Heretics Question: Cross-Functional HR Collaboration (01:11) The Missing Link in HR Teams (02:42) DoorDash's GM Model & Early Learnings (04:36) The Weekly Business Review Magic (05:13) Building One Cohesive HR Experience (07:09) The Color Gradient Approach to HR (08:01) Sponsor: Metaview(09:42) Pod Structure: SWAT Teams for People Ops (10:38) Embracing Regular Reorgs (11:44) Why Messy HR is Good HR (12:29) Mobility as a Silo-Breaker (13:05) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Chris Yeh – author, venture partner, and co-writer of Blitzscaling (with Reid Hoffman) – shares insights from his multifaceted career as a Silicon Valley insider. Yeh discusses staying relevant in tech, the necessary skill of unlearning, and why traveling with potential partners might be the best way to assess compatibility. Yeh gives our listeners a masterclass in adaptability and authentic leadership.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire athttps://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINChris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisyehNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—RELATED LINKS:* Infinite Learning - Why Unlearning Is The Critical Learning Skill | Chris Yeh | TEDxGrandviewHeights* The Lightning-Fast Path to Building Massively Valuable Companies: https://www.blitzscaling.com/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (01:20) Chris's Palpable Energy (02:54) Passion vs Skill (04:08) Charisma in Leadership (08:09) Unlearning Old Things (14:29) Sponsor: Metaview(15:41) Writing a Book with Reid Hoffman (23:57) Picking and Prioritizing Projects(24:58) Staying Relevant (27:15) Blitzscaling: Adaptability & Resilience (32:21) What Would Chris Take Back from Blitzscaling? (37:01) Picking Companies as an Employee (40:25) Assessing a Founder (43:15) Bias in Assessments (45:16) Negotiating Founder Shares (51:55) Choosing Principles over Numbers (51:55) Offer Package Hack (53:28) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Tired of hearing "HR needs to be more business-focused" without any real direction? In this episode, Kelli and Nolan cut through the noise with actionable insights from veteran CPO Jeff Diana. Learn why joining sales calls, understanding your P&L, and getting your hands dirty in customer support might be your secret weapons. Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire athttps://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINJeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana-a1906212/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:14) HR is a Business Function: Action vs. Rhetoric(02:09) The Business-First Approach Do's and Don'ts(04:19) Fostering a Deeper Understanding of the Business(06:01) Product Certification and Experiential Learning(06:57) Understanding a Founder's Emotional Investment (even if it seems irrational)(08:52) Knowing the Numbers(13:14) Strategic Time Investment and Knowledge Acquisition(15:56) Including Customer Success in Knowledge Gathering(16:18) Sponsor: Metaview(17:38) Internal Reviews and Cross-Functional Collaboration(19:01) Internal Best Practices and Efficiency(20:47) Growing Fluidity Between HR and other Business Functions(21:14) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Ever wonder what happens when HR leaders get real about C-suite scrutiny? Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as they spill the tea on transforming those dreaded "show me the numbers" moments into power moves. Turns out, the secret sauce isn't hiding from spreadsheets—it's owning them with style.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:14) Increasing Scrutiny of HR budgets from CEOs, CFOs, and Board Members(01:50) Stakeholder Management and Proactive Planning(04:42) Assume Good Intent and Take Ownership(06:35) Earned Trust and Common Experience(08:05) Sponsor: Metaview(09:12) New Roles and Re-establishing Credibility and the CFOs Perspective(10:36) Advice and Next Steps(12:07) Closing and Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

From pioneering parental leave strategies to 3 AM workout sessions, Warner Bros Discovery's SVP of People Donald Knight reveals how vulnerability, authenticity, and physical discipline shape exceptional leadership. Donald joins Kelli and Nolan in a candid conversation about evolving HR, squandered DEI opportunities, and building lasting relationships in hyper-growth environments.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsRECOMMENDED PODCAST:🎙️ Unpack Pricing - Dive into the dark arts of SaaS pricing with Metronome CEO Scott Woody and tech leaders. Learn how strategic pricing drives explosive revenue growth in today's biggest companies like Snowflake, Cockroach Labs, Dropbox and more._KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINDonald: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldfknight/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (00:39) Donald's initial reluctance to join HR and his perspective shift (02:32) Evolution of the HR profession (04:06) Pushback against employee-centric HR practices (07:22) The "war for talent" and its aftermath (10:53) The focus on immutable traits in diversity initiatives (14:05) Sponsor: Metaview (15:17) Importance of company stances and differentiation (19:15) Donald's paternity leave plan and its impact (25:35) The recruiting process and its unexpected outcomes (32:45) Donald's experience working with founders (39:50) Donald's favorite interview questions and their rationale (44:30) Donald's fitness journey and its importance (49:20) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Didier Elzinga, Culture Amp's CEO, drops bombshell insights about why most leaders get growth wrong, reveals shocking data about manager vs. leader impact, and explains why treating feedback like an all-you-can-eat menu is destroying companies. Didier sits down with Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for a conversation about company culture, data, and mapping the world of work on two axes—trust versus mission.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsRECOMMENDED PODCAST:🎙️ Unpack Pricing - Dive into the dark arts of SaaS pricing with Metronome CEO Scott Woody and tech leaders. Learn how strategic pricing drives explosive revenue growth in today's biggest companies like Snowflake, Cockroach Labs, Dropbox and more._KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINDidier: https://www.linkedin.com/in/didierelzingaNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(02:50) From Harry Potter to CultureAmp CEO (04:51) CultureAmp in the Film Industry & Anonymous Feedback (08:40) Culture-First Companies & the Importance of Resilience (13:24) Current Trends in Employee Engagement & Expectations (15:12) Sponsor: Metaview(16:24) The Future of Employer-Employee Relationships (19:20) Enduring Truths in Culture & Growth (21:13) Growth, Ambiguity, and Leadership (23:54) Data-Driven Insights & Addressing Gender Gaps (27:20) The Director to VP Transition & Hard Lessons (31:45) Influencing Change & the Power of Data (33:55) The Value & Limitations of Engagement Surveys (37:45) Defining Strategy & the Feedback "Workout" (39:01) CultureAmp's Non-Negotiables & Growth (43:07) The Power of Storytelling & Authenticity(46:32) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

How do you navigate a founding CTO's transition when they're struggling to scale? Kelli and Nolan share hard-won wisdom on avoiding common pitfalls: don't rush to judgment, build trust first, and respect the deep bonds between founders. Instead of plotting replacements, focus on supporting growth - and remember that even the best transitions happen through relationships, not force.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:52) Avoid Premature Judgments(04:43) Nuance and Relationship Building(07:43) Sponsor Message: Metaview(08:55) Further Discussion: Investing in Existing Leadership(11:25) Additional Insights: Truth and Trust(13:02) The Risk of Premature Action(14:23) Summary and Emotional Dynamics(14:46) Board Involvement and Conclusion(15:37) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Melanie Naranjo, Chief People Officer at Ethena, joins Kelli and Nolan to tackle the surge in employee litigation facing modern companies. In an era where employees are increasingly using legal terms like 'discrimination' and 'retaliation,' how can companies balance protecting themselves from frivolous lawsuits while ensuring legitimate grievances are properly addressed?Explore how social media, changing workplace expectations, and generational shifts are fueling this trend, while offering practical insights on navigating these challenges. The conversation balances protecting employee rights with managing unfounded claims, providing valuable perspectives for HR professionals and business leaders trying to build fair, transparent workplaces.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH MELANIE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINMelanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-naranjo/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:10) Rising Employee Litigation(03:25) Traditional & Contrarian Responses(06:10) Deeper Issues & Lack of Transparency(07:30) Subjectivity & Company Liability(09:30) Litigation as a Trend & Setting Expectations(11:40) Employee Perspective & Open Dialogue(15:40) Company Burden & Employee Expectations(15:43) Sponsor: Metaview(18:10) Clear Expectations & Self-Selection(21:40) Internal Training & Consistency(23:20) Value of Community & Legal Counsel(26:10) Key Takeaways & The Bambi Golden Rule(28:08) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Today Kelli and Nolan tackle a real-world HR career challenge: a candidate who received feedback that while they could handle their current role, the hiring manager was unsure about their ability to scale with company growth.Drawing from their extensive backgrounds in recruiting and HR leadership, they help listeners navigate everything from interview feedback to career growth, offering insider perspectives that challenge traditional HR thinking and empower professionals to take control of their career narrative.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (01:00) Dear Heretics Question - Scaling HR (02:45) Understanding Hiring Manager Requirements (04:24) Focus on Aptitude and Mindset (04:58) Recruiters' Current Challenges (06:13) Anticipate Feedback and Be Proactive (07:00) Highlight Strengths and Address Gaps (07:35) Proactive Preparation for Interviews (08:22) "Show Up With A Solution" (08:40) Sponsor: Metaview (09:52) Value of HRBP Experience (10:47) Don't Underestimate Your Experience (11:02) Narrative is Key (11:25) HR and Sales Parallels (11:46) Focus on Personal Narrative (12:13) Gain Experience Inside Your Company (13:36) Turn Feedback into Growth (14:05) Architect Your Own Experience (14:18) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

How do you lead product when your CEO is the product visionary? Pendo's Chief Product Officer Trisha Price reveals the delicate dance of setting boundaries with founder-CEOs, the evolution of HR from gatekeeper to strategic partner, and why she uses AI to write letters to her 102-year-old grandmother. A candid conversation about power, trust, and the changing face of tech leadership.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINTrisha: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/—TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (01:20) Navigating a Founder-CEO, Product Guru Dynamic (03:00) Establishing Boundaries and Trust(06:40) The Importance of a Lengthy Recruiting Process (09:40) Assessing Product Leaders (14:40) Managing Stakeholder Input and AI Pressure (17:50) Managing the Tension Between Sales and Product (20:10) Navigating the AI Hype Cycle (24:20) Tricia's Personal Use of AI (26:40) Emerging Female Executives in Tech (30:40) The Future of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I) (36:00) The Evolution of HR and the "Department of No" (40:50) Working with a Great HR Leader (43:40) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

On Election Day 2024, Nolan and Kelli examine how to navigate an increasingly polarized workplace during a contentious election. They discuss the decline of 'presidential' discourse, the impact of social media on political rhetoric, and practical strategies for business leaders managing divided teams. Their candid conversation offers insights on maintaining professionalism and unity when half the country faces inevitable disappointment.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (00:13) The Election and Preparing for a Divisive Outcome (04:00) Supporting the Winner (05:10) Homogeneous Support and the Undoing of Progress (08:12) Sponsor: Metaview (09:35) Social Media and Mental Health (10:20) The Addiction of Election Results (11:25) The Importance of Routine and Mental Health (12:20) TikTok and Chaos (12:21) Confusing Voting Laws (12:53) Historical Context and Election Integrity (14:00) Navigating a Divided Workplace (14:25) Setting Expectations Before the Election (18:04) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Former Dashlane HR leader Ciara Lakhani shares her unfiltered journey from New York to Paris tech, debunking myths about French business culture while revealing the art of cross-cultural leadership. From smoke breaks with works councils to earning trust through authenticity, Ciara offers practical wisdom on navigating international business dynamics and building bridges between American and French work cultures. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccessSupport HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINCiara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ciaralakhani/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Elevate People:https://elevatepeople.io/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (01:50) Ciara's move to Paris in 2020 (04:54) Challenges of being an HR exec in another country (05:53) Stereotype against French HR people (07:08) Communication style in France (08:30) Assimilating with French HR professionals (10:30) Generalizations about France (11:45) Learning the nuances of French labor laws (13:35) Navigating HR in different countries (15:18) Sponsor: Metaview(17:18) Punitive government in France (18:39) Being a translator in HR (19:50) Working with lawyers (20:45) Org politics in France (23:04) Unpacking the co-founder story (23:50) Org navigation and politics in Paris (27:30) Earning trust in a new culture (29:50) French tactics and meeting people where they are (30:00) Ciara's transition to being independent (31:38) Assimilating into French culture (33:00) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this segment of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan discuss "empty suit executives" – a term coined by product leader Tyler Hogge, highlighting executives who manage from above but scoff at doing the work themselves.Is the era of the status-seeking executive dead? Explore how AI, increased competition, and evolving workplace culture are killing the 'empty suit' leader. From Silicon Valley's trenches to corporate boardrooms, discover why authenticity is replacing authority, and why rolling up your sleeves might be the new key to power in modern business.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.--Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINK/S:The Empty Suit Executive by Tyler Hoggehttps://tylerhogge.com/2024/10/16/the-empty-suit-executive/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (00:29) The Empty Suit Executive (03:43) Shift in Management Styles and the Rise of Doers (05:34) Clash Between Founders and "Empty Suit" Executives (06:17) The Changing Dynamics of Large Tech Companies (07:17) Venture-Backed Companies as a Bellwether (09:00) Sponsor: MetaView (10:06) Recognizing Our Own "Empty Suit" Tendencies (11:30) Building a Brand and Leading by Example (12:40) New Era of Leadership (13:30) Adaptability in a Competitive Landscape (14:04) The Rise of AI (14:36) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli talks with Silicon Valley prodigy turned seasoned operator and former Google director Jared Fliesler.From revolutionizing feedback systems to challenging the "founder mode" hype, Jared shares raw insights from his journey as Silicon Valley's youngest executive. But that's just the beginning – he also unveils the psychological trap keeping high achievers perpetually unfulfilled (hint: it's not what you think), and shares the counterintuitive secret to genuine satisfaction. Whether you're a startup founder, HR leader, or ambitious professional, this episode will fundamentally change how you think about performance, leadership, and success. Warning: your perspective on workplace traditions will never be the same.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH JARED, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINJared: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredsf/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:First Call Coaching:https://www.firstcall.co/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:13) Intro(00:59) Radical Performance Review Process (06:18) Getting the CEO on Board(08:48) People Operations as Core Business(10:20) The Move Away from Performance Reviews(10:50) Feedback Systems for Introverts(12:07) The Semantics of Performance Reviews(12:48) Experimenting with Performance Reviews(13:52) Founder Mode(19:18) Sponsor: Metaview(20:10) Copy-pasting Culture Decks(20:54) Revolt Against Traditional Management(21:46) Fandiger Mounder(22:16) Treating People Like Wrists(24:14) Being the Youngest Person in the Room(27:37) The Importance of EQ(28:42) Layoff Experience(30:35) The Ego Trap(32:38) Founder Coaching(33:03) Jared's Coaching Practice(37:21) Hiring and Firing in Hyper Growth(37:54) Hire With Speed, Fire with Respect(42:00) The Cost of PIPs(43:04) The Importance of Respect(43:52) The Hedonic Treadmill(48:06) Gratitude as the Antidote(48:22) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this candid episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan dive deep into workplace burnout and share vulnerable insights on maintaining resilience in high-pressure roles.From conquering impostor syndrome to escaping the corporate echo chamber, they offer practical strategies—like daily routines, nature walks, and building authentic relationships—while reminding leaders that it's okay not to have all the answers.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.--Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:20) Practical Approaches to Reducing Burnout01:48) Key Insights on Managing Professional Burnout(05:01) A Perspective on Failure(07:14)  Confronting Negative Self-Talk in High-Pressure Roles(08:36) Sponsor: Metaview(09:48) Importance of Saying "I Don't Know"(10:17) Finding Balance: Avoiding Professional Extremes(12:53) Breaking Free from the Corporate Echo Chamber(14:08) The Signifiance of Strong Relationships(15:13) Sharing and Collaboration(16:34) The Tangible Nature of Energy(17:07) Understanding Energy's Impact in the Workplace(18:17) Gaining Fresh Perspectives Through History & Experience(19:00) Practicing Gratitude in Professional Life(20:09) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Peter Walker, Head of Insights at Carta, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich for a round 2 discussion to talk about the hidden currents reshaping the startup world.From the brutal reality of today's hiring landscape to the unexpected reasons top companies avoid IPOs, Walker challenges conventional wisdom, exploring how the "Big Stay" phenomenon and emerging equity models are redefining employee-company relationships. With startling data on fund performance and company shutdowns, this conversation poses a provocative question: Are we witnessing the end of the startup golden age, or the birth of a new, leaner ecosystem?*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINPeter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Carta:https://carta.com/data/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:29) Hiring Market Remains Brutal(05:06) Tenure Correlation in Layoffs(10:08) The "Big Stay"(10:15) Sponsor: Metaview(11:27) Venture Ecosystem Driven by Investor Returns(15:34) M&A Activity is Rising(17:22) Emerging Fund Managers Under Pressure(19:37) Employee Compensation Trends(21:16) Company Valuations(25:13) Dissonance Between IPO Market and Public Market Performance(29:14) Series A and Beyond Round Activity(32:05) Resetting Expectations in Venture(37:38) Emerging Models for Employee Equity(40:23) Equity Returning to the Pool(42:16) The 90-Day Exercise Window(43:48) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In a world where AI blurs the line between genuine skill and digital deception, HR professionals face an ethical minefield. As candidates leverage AI to cheat interviews and fake applicants infiltrate tech companies, the very fabric of recruitment is being tested. Kelli and Nolan explore the unsettling convergence of technology and human ambition, challenging us to redefine trust, authenticity, and competence in the modern workplace.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.--Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:13) Candidates Cheating on Interviews with AI(02:40) Interviewing is High Stakes(04:07) AI is Getting Better(05:21) AI Native Candidates(06:49) The Importance of Human Qualities(7:44) Sponsor: Metaview(08:56) Quality Over Quantity(10:18) Referrals and Bias(11:04) Soft Skills Are Hard to Replace(11:17) Fake Candidates(12:43) The Need for Verification(13:36) Poor Recruiting Practices(14:02) Proof of Personhood(14:32) A Chasm of Technology(15:15) Expect the Unexpected(16:02) Awareness is the First Step(16:19) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Seasoned executive recruiter and venture capitalist Andy Price joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich for an inside-the-room look at the intricate dance of hiring, retaining, and evolving top-tier talent. Andy has assembled leadership teams for companies like Snowflake, DocuSign, Confluent, Amplitude, and ServiceNow.From the critical role of empathy in leadership transitions to the long-term value of investing in talent development, Price's insights challenge listeners preconcieved notions about hiring and maintaining world-class execs. This episode is a compelling exploration of how the right people, in the right roles, with the right support, can transform good companies into great ones. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coHR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH ANDY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINAndy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyprice1/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Artisanal Ventures:https://artisanalv.com/—TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (00:39)Why is the hit rate for execs so low? (03:47) How to mitigate a bad executive outcome (04:18) The Artisanal process to mitigate a bad outcome (07:44) Back channels in executive recruiting (11:05) When should a CEO back channel? (12:40) How many back channels are too many? (14:00) Dealing with personality fit issues after hiring an exec (16:34) Sponsor: Metaview (17:46) The importance of onboarding and post-hire support (18:47) How to vet search firms (22:37) Name-dropping in executive recruiting (25:13) Founders trying to run searches on their own (29:05) The importance of staying close with search firms (30:13) Hiring for experience vs. trajectory (34:16) The importance of orchestration in executive transitions (35:40) The role of ego in executive transitions (36:13) Involvement of layered executives in the interview process (38:53) Setting expectations for layered executives (39:22) The importance of studying successful executive transitions (40:40) How to help up-and-comers scale (43:03) The importance of advisors and coaches (45:36) Executive career management (48:43) Executive tenure and the importance of grit (51:17) Importance of doing meaningful work before seeking new roles (51:55) Importance of authenticity in the executive world (52:38) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com