National Disability Radio

On this episode of National Disability Radio, we sit down with award-winning recording artist, advocate, and author Lachi for a powerful conversation about disability pride, music, and unmasking. Lachi shares her journey, from navigating the music industry as a blind artist, to founding RAMPD, a coalition amplifying disability culture across the industry. We talk about what it means to say “I identify as blind,” move beyond the medical and social models of disability into a cultural model rooted in identity and joy, and remind listeners that no one can defeat someone who hasn’t given up. From glam canes to Grammy stages, this episode is about claiming space, rejecting internalized ableism, and turning perceived flaws into flexes. Transcript: Alden Blevins: It’s Lachi? I feel very- Lachi: Lachi like Versace. Alden Blevins: Lachi like… Oh, I love that. Michelle Bishop: That is the best way to explain it. Lachi: I mean, but you know what I’m saying? Come on. Alden Blevins: Well, we’re really excited about having you today because we’re all music lovers in this group here. Michelle Bishop: Yes. Alden Blevins: We talk about music all the time. Michelle Bishop: So much. Lachi: Good, good, good, good, good, good, good. I’m in the right place. Michelle Bishop: Hi everyone. Welcome back to National Disability Radio, the official podcast of the National Disability Rights Network. I am Michelle Bishop, 1/3 of your podcast hosting team. Stephanie Flynt McEben: And I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben, public policy analyst here at NDRN. Alden Blevins: I am Alden. I am a communication specialist at NDRN and I am so excited today, like I mentioned, we’re all lovers of music, so we got a guest that I’m really excited about. Lachi is an award-winning recording artist and a recording Academy Grammy’s national trustee. She’s also a disability advocate who’s been breaking barriers in the music industry and beyond. She’s the founder of RAMPD, which by the way, is such a fun play name. I really love that. And the author of the upcoming book, I Identify as Blind. So without further ado, Michelle, you’ve got some questions to kick us off, I think. Michelle Bishop: Yes. We’re so excited to have you with us. As Alden said, we are. We’re huge music lovers. I’m pretty sure we spend most of our meetings where we allegedly plan this podcast just talking about music. So you’re absolutely in the right place today, but to get us started, I mean, you’ve been open about the fact, and I’m just really interested in this as a disability rights podcast. You’ve been really open about the fact that it took you some time to really embrace your identity as a blind and disabled woman, especially in the industry that you’re in that often really rewards conformity. Can you tell us a little bit more about that journey for you, both as an artist and as someone navigating just the world with a disability? Lachi: Okay. Yeah, for sure. Hey, everybody. Lachi here, Lachi like Versace. I am a Black woman with cornrows, chilling here in New York in my studio. I also identify as blind, I identify as neurodivergent, and I identify as an Aries. So do with that what you will. Michelle Bishop: All the important points right there. Lachi: All the important points like name, age, sign. Thank you. Okay. Yeah, but I’m really glad to be here. And thank you for that question, and thank you for having me. So music has always been a very integral part of my life of growing up. Where other babies would kick in the womb, when she was pregnant with me, I was playing the piano in the womb. I don’t know how she got a piano in there, but she’s not a liar, so I’m going to take her word for it. When I was super-duper young, I didn’t really have a lot of friends, especially because of the fact that I had differences and this and that. And so I would take to music to, I guess, understand the world better and have the world understand me better. I just knew how to express myself through song and it just said the things I needed to say. It was the prayer I needed. And because of music, I started to find confidence in how to speak and how to behave and how to act. And as I got older, when I was growing up, disability was not necessarily a thing people talked about a lot in schools and teachers didn’t know what to do. My parents didn’t really know what to do. And so I would always just turn to music. It’s actually right now I’m working on a children’s album because I think that kids need to hear music that has to do with disability and neurodivergence, as well as their parents as they grow up. When I got into college, I started wanting to do music, but I studied business and finance because when I told my parents I wanted to do music, they were like, “That’s not how you spell doctor.” because they are Nigerian immigrants and everybody else in my family went to either med school and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, “No, I want to do music.” But I did get a day job after school, after college, and didn’t love it because this girl is not going to exist behind a desk. So I ended up going to South by Southwest and I got signed actually from playing the guitar at a hole in the wall spot that nobody was at, except for this A&R apparently. So we got signed to an imprint under EMI, which was a major label back then, and we started touring and music then became my life. Now today, why wouldn’t I pay my respects back to music? I mean, it’s because of music that I was able to really lean into who I am, my disability, my confidence, et cetera. So because of that, because of how much music has given to me in my life, I’m here using music to give back to other people with disabilities. Now, your question was essentially, how do you sit here and try to bring about change for disability in an industry that is not only about conformity, but also about like, “Hey, pick me to exploit.” is essentially what the music industry is. You’re raising your hand to be exploited and that’s what kind of authenticity is that? But at the end of the day, music is some of the truest forms of storytelling. And I think to myself, just the way that hip hop has amplified Black culture and the way that country music has amplified rural culture and the way that different global musics have represented different global cultures. I want to use music to amplify disability culture. I want to use music to amplify disability stories and feelings that are difficult to put words to, that are words of the soul, which is essentially what music is. And so I started going to studios and realizing things weren’t as accessible as they should be. I started speaking with organizations and realizing things weren’t as inclusive as they should be. And the response I kept getting was like, “Oh, well, there’s nobody with a disability in the music industry, so why would we make these measures?” And so I have made it my life’s goal through RAMPD, which by the way, the best thing we ever accomplished was our acronym, not us working with the Grammys to get sign language on the red carpet, not us getting these partnerships with title, Live Nation, Spotify. I mean, we’ve done so much, not just for artists, but also for professionals. And we’ve started to realize something really interesting with the work we’ve done with RAMPD. We are getting people joining our membership who are director level folks, who are label owners, who are like the big wigs that write the checks, and they’re like, “I’m neurodivergent. I’m actually hard of hearing. I have a TBI.” And so when I originally set out, they said, “We don’t do disability inclusion because nobody’s disabled.” That was three years ago. Now I’m like, not only are there neurodivergent and disabled music professionals out here, but we all are. So really to conclude, it’s just that everyone is navigating trying to make it out in this world, but everyone’s masking. Everyone feels that they have to change some part of themselves to be as close as they can to what success looks like, be as close as they can to what “beauty” looks like, what winning looks like. But really all it is internalized ableism. And I say, as soon as we drop that internalized ableism and we really start to sit in who we truly are and we start to recognize our perceived flaws as flexes, that’s when we truly start to win. And so that’s what we’re finding out with RAMPD, that people are like, “You know what? I’m tired of navigating this difficult industry with the added layer of having to mask.” And so that’s why I do what I do. Michelle Bishop: Yes. And honestly, as ridiculous as it sounds that they say to you, “Oh, there aren’t any people with disabilities.” When I tell you, we see that in everything that we do. I do voting work at NDRN and we’ll have elections officials tell us, “This polling place isn’t accessible, but there aren’t any people with disabilities that vote here.” And it’s like, “What? You realize we’re everywhere and we do all sorts of things.” Maybe the reason they think there’s no people with disabilities here is because they’re stuck outside and they can’t get in because you didn’t make it accessible, just a thought. But I mean, it sounds like coming up against all that is really, correct me if I’m wrong, helped you to develop that identity and that disability pride in the industry. When did you first say, “I identify as blind.” and what did that mean for you? Lachi: Well, so when I first came into really doing the disability thing, really leaning in, I wanted to find out more influencers or thought leaders and such with disabilities. I didn’t really know that many people. This is pre COVID, 2018, 2019, that kind of thing. And so I came across an influencer, her name is Molly Burke, and we’re great friends now, but I didn’t know her back then. I had just seen her tagline and it had said, “I’m Molly Burke and I’m a YouTuber who happens to be blind.” And for some reason I was like, “I don’t know if I love the happens to be blind thing.

Alden Blevins, the newest host of National Disability Radio, has a personal journey with autism and ADHD that has shaped her perspective on disability rights and advocacy. Alden was misdiagnosed with anxiety and depression as a child, and did not receive the correct diagnosis of autism and ADHD until her late 20s. Alden describes her experience navigating the workplace and healthcare systems as an autistic individual, emphasizing the challenges of “passing” as neurotypical and the importance of self-accommodating. We also discuss the evolving public perception and representation of autism, noting that while awareness has increased, the diversity of the autistic experience is often overlooked. When it comes to policy and advocacy, Alden highlights the need for greater autistic representation and input, as the perspectives of those with high support needs or who use augmentative communication are often left out of importangt onversations To recharge and find joy, the PodSquad turns to their interests, particularly music and pop culture, which play an important role in ever important their self-advocate self-care regime. To view or download the full transcript, click here. Michelle Bishop: How could we not talk about Taylor getting engaged and dropping a new album? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes. Oh my gosh. Michelle Bishop: Taylor, she understood the assignment and she was like, “The world needs me to bring them joy right now.” Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes. Alden Blevins: Oh, absolutely. I’ve been totally enjoying some good escapism by entering into the Taylor verse, and that’s been helpful for my mental health as of late, so. Michelle Bishop: Maybe we should do our podcast. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Welcome to National Disability Radio. Alden Blevins: Let’s go ahead and do that. So I’m the newbie here in the mix today. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yay. Alden Blevins: Yes. But I will welcome everybody to National Disability Radio and introduce myself and say that I am Alden Blevins. I am a new addition to the NDRN team. I started last year around November. Before that, I happened to work at the Virginia Protection and Advocacy organization, disAbility Law Center of Virginia for two years. So I have learned a lot from the PNAs in the disability community, and I’m super stoked to be here today. Michelle Bishop: Love it. Welcome. Alden Blevins: Yeah. Michelle Bishop: Stephanie, were you going to introduce yourself? Stephanie Flynt McEben: I was just going to say, Alden, we are super excited to have you as a producer and host. So yeah, we are super excited to have you with us on our pod squad team. But yeah, I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben and I am NDRN’s public policy analyst and I guess it’s one third now, one third of your podcast hosts. Michelle Bishop: One third, one third. I’m Michelle Bishop. I’m the manager for voter access and engagement, and I usually have to introduce myself first every single episode, so looking- Alden Blevins: Oh, wow. I didn’t mean to steal your thunder. I just wanted us to get into the mix. Michelle Bishop: And I know you’ve got hella professional experience, but also one of the things we highlight on National Disability Radio is also the lived experience of having a disability and why that is also as important and as valid and useful as the professional experience and data and that sort of thing. Alden Blevins: Absolutely. So I have my own experience with disabilities. I identify, as the kids say, AuDHD, meaning I both have autism and ADHD, and that has shaped so much about how I moved through the world. Other than that, some more lived experience I have is that I started my career out working in public education, which just happened to teach me a lot about the systems and the barriers that everyday people face. And in addition to my own lived experience with disability, my mom is also a power chair user. Sometimes she uses a walker. She uses various mobility aids. She’s had a disability for most of my life growing up, so while I bring my own perspective, I’ve also got a lot of experience with a different type of disability through my experiences growing up with my mom. Michelle Bishop: I’m sorry, did you call it AuDHD? I’ve never heard that before. That’s amazing. Alden Blevins: Yes. AuDHD. A-U-D-H-D. Michelle Bishop: Yes. I love it, I love it. We’re already learning new things. This episode is about you as our new pro host. So back us all the way up. Let’s let our listeners get to know you a little bit. Can you talk about your journey to joining NDRN? Alden Blevins: Yeah, absolutely. So like I mentioned, I did start out working in public education and from there I moved into nonprofit work first with the National Alliance on Mental Illness of Virginia. And then again with the Virginia PNA, the disAbility Law Center of Virginia. I feel like each step to getting to NCRN has been a new layer of experiencing how disability rights touches every aspect of our lives. I feel like I’ve really learned a ton. And today I see the world through the lens of ableism, and I want to be in a world where people with disabilities, whether visible or invisible, are valued for who they are. At its core, I believe people like me deserve to exist and know that we are valid to show up however we show up. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Alden, I know that you’ve talked a little bit about your experience and what interested you in joining NDRN and the network. Can you talk a little bit more about what disability rights work means to you personally? I know that for me, that’s just something that we automatically connect to. I know for me as a multiply disabled person, that’s definitely something that I take with me when it comes to doing my work from the day-to-day. And I imagine that you’ve got similar points, but would love to hear you expand a little bit more on that. Alden Blevins: Yeah, absolutely. Again, I see everything through that lens of ableism because of my own personal lived experiences. I have my own things that have happened to me through the lens of employment, through the lens of healthcare that are related to my own disabilities. So when I hear stories of other people struggling with some of the same instances of ableism or the same barriers that I struggled with, I’m able to really empathize with them and put myself in their shoes. So I think that my own disability identity has definitely helped me understand better what the world of disability rights means and why people maybe have more pride or try to cultivate that self-acceptance in their disability identities because I think that’s what feels the best and the most affirming to me. And I try to bring that to my work here at NDRN. Michelle Bishop: 100%. Absolutely. Disability, we talk about it all day every day in this work that we do on this podcast, but it’s not this abstract thing. Disability and disability rights are very real. It’s something that we live every day. It shapes so much about our lives, our personal lives and our work. Can you walk us through that journey for you? You talked about how it impacted your education, you and the workplace, healthcare advocacy. Can we take it back to, tell me about young Alden? Did you know you had AuDHD at the time when you were in school? And how did that impact you? Alden Blevins: I definitely did not know that I had autism and ADHD. I went through some processes of misdiagnosis. When I was really small, I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression at age 10 due to extreme fluctuations in behavior and my ability to cope. They were interpreted by my family as dramatic moods or tantrums, but what I was actually experiencing were autistic meltdowns. But because clinicians in the ’90s didn’t really see me or any young girls for that matter as autistic, they missed the root causes of my behavior. I began taking anxiety meds and I continued with that all throughout high school and early college, but there were still a lot of other sensory and social things that the diagnosis just didn’t explain. I always knew there was something different about me. I remember feeling like an alien as a very little kid, and I did continue to struggle a lot with meltdowns and mood regulation through early adulthood. Alden Blevins: I was misdiagnosed with that anxiety and depression for years. Later, I eventually acquired another misdiagnosis of bipolar. The clinicians just generally lacked knowledge about how autism presents in women and girls throughout the 90s and 2000s. And especially because I had already made it to adulthood without the diagnosis, they didn’t necessarily have the knowledge to interpret what do these symptoms look like on an adult woman. I get the comment a lot of like, “You’re nothing like my 8-year-old nephew who loves trains.” And I’m like, “I am a 32-year-old woman, so I am different from your 8-year-old nephew.” And sometimes people don’t necessarily realize what that diagnosis can look like kind of on different people. Alden Blevins: But once I finally did get my diagnosis of autism and ADHD, I began self-accommodating. The diagnosis really gave me the confidence to claim my place in the disability community. And I began starting thinking about myself as a member of the disability community. But before that I didn’t, which is honestly a little silly because under my old diagnoses of anxiety and depression, I was struggling just as much, but that didn’t feel like to me a valid enough explanation for everything or a reason to need extra help. These labels fit me better, that they were really helpful for me in contextualizing what were the root causes of some of the things I was experiencing. So no, little Alden did not know at all, and she did not find out fully until she was 29 years old. So it’s been a journey. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I can only imagine that is… Oh my goodness, definitely been there, done that. I know that I had a similar journey with my own mental health disabilities. There’s just so m

Jack is going off to law school. So the gang sits down to reminisce on his time at NDRN, share a few stories from behind the scenes, and hear a joke from Stephanie that gets a good laugh out of us. Full transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-august25/ Jack Rosen: Like we have any sort of agenda for today, so just sort of going to get what I get. Turn that into a podcast, I guess. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Sure. Michelle Bishop: And that’s different from any other episode because… Jack Rosen: It’s not, it genuinely, I guess is not, I suppose at some point we’d have a guest and questions we thought we should ask them. Michelle Bishop: Oh. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I’m the guest and I have the questions. I don’t know. Jack Rosen: I’m pretty sure you’re not the guest. Michelle Bishop: It’s fine. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I’m pretty sure Jack is the guest. Jack Rosen: I’m sort of the guest. Stephanie Flynt McEben: What? Michelle Bishop: Wait what? Stephanie Flynt McEben: This episode is for Jack, isn’t it? Jack Rosen: It would be very funny if we just made it the Stephanie episode, even though we’ve done like two of those. Stephanie Flynt McEben: No. That would make me feel like such a bad chicken nugget. Jack Rosen: Even though we’ve already done- Stephanie Flynt McEben: This is all about you. Michelle Bishop: We already did a Stephanie wedding episode. Jack Rosen: We did a whole one about you getting married. Stephanie Flynt McEben: We’ve already done a bunch of episodes about me doing chicken-nuggety things like, come on. Michelle Bishop: Oh, that reminds me. My mom wants to hear about the legally blind Uber driver. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I forgot that I slipped that into an episode. Michelle Bishop: Yeah, she’s still listening and she has some follow-up questions. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I love this. Michelle Bishop: Well pack might have to address that at some point. Jack Rosen: Well, Stephanie, do you want to address it? I mean, let’s give the people what they want, I guess. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, I guess we can give the people what they want. Michelle Bishop: Yeah, we have one listener, so we should probably follow up on that for her. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And Carol, thank you so much for being a dedicated, loyal listener to this wonderful podcast. So I will give a slighter Cliff Notes version just so it doesn’t take up the whole hour. So I am waiting for a car outside of, I can’t remember which Metro stop it was, but I had to go get something, and so I just figured I’d take an Uber home from the Metro because that particular Metro was a lot easier to get a car and it would only be a 20-minute ride. Okay, fine. This is what I’ll do. And so I get out of the Metro station, I’m trying to find my driver or whatever, yada, yada, and I can’t even remember his name. Maybe we should just call him Bob for anonymity. I am bad at saying that too. But yeah, so Bob pulls up in some sort of Toyota of some sort and I get in the car and we start driving and I noticed that I’m hearing a lot more horns, but I’m just not thinking about it because it’s rush hour DC traffic. And then we started, he was like, “You know, I’ll be honest with you, I’m legally blind. I can only see out of one eye.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” And I’m just trying to think of some of the things that he said, but he said different things that were essentially low vision, blind hacks or what have you. I’m trying to remember the specific hacks, but honestly, when he said, “I’m legally blind,” I was kind of like, “Huh, Jesus, take the wheel. Please get me home safe.” So it was a wild ride. No, that was not an intended pun but we can make it a pun. Jack Rosen: So you’re saying he might’ve had limited vision in the one eye? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, potentially. But, he said that he was only legally blind, he was legally blind or totally blind out of one eye, and then he could see out of the other eye just fine. Jack Rosen: You don’t sound convinced he could see just fine out of the other eye. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I’m not. I don’t want to say it. Jack has to say it. Jack Rosen: I don’t want to say it. Michelle, kick us off as always. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, Michelle, you do that. Yeah. Michelle Bishop: Why is it always me? Okay. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Because you’re such a good public speaker and I’m really sad right now. Jack Rosen: We’re already dealing with enough change. I don’t want to deal with more. Could you please kick us off? Michelle Bishop: On this very special episode of National Disability Radio, we say goodbye to our pro-host extraordinaire, Jack Rosen, who is leaving NDRN to go to law school. Yay, Jack. We need an applause. We’ve never had an applause. Can we- Stephanie Flynt McEben: I know I keep saying that. Oh my gosh. But seriously, Jack, we’re going to miss you so, so, so much. And you have been an amazing pro-host with the most. Jack Rosen: I also have bad news. I definitely did not have enough time left to add in the applause, but… Stephanie Flynt McEben: Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap clap, there. I’m trying not to, oh man. That made me sound facetious. I might have to- Jack Rosen: No, we’re keeping that in. Michelle Bishop: That’s definitely staying in. The part where Stephanie was very salty with you is definitely staying in. This is still the most professional podcast in the business. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes, it is. Michelle Bishop: We pay the big money for the good effects. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes. Jack Rosen: But thank you Michelle. I am sad to be leaving NDRN. It’s been five years here. I started back, for those who don’t know, I started back in 2020. It was actually pretty early COVID. It was May the fourth, because I’ll always remember it’s Star Wars Day. Michelle Bishop: Yes. You started- Stephanie Flynt McEben: May the fourth be with you. Jack Rosen: And it’s funny, NDRN was pretty much the last job interview I had at the start of COVID because nowhere else in the world was hiring. And I interviewed with Michelle and David Hutt and our former ED for a position on the voting team, and I told them at the time like, “Hey, my background is really in politics and comms. I’m a person with a disability. I have ADHD. And I’ve received services throughout my life for it, but I don’t know a ton about the disability rights movement, but I’m willing to learn.” And I got lucky enough that they decided to take a chance on me. And so for the first two years I was here, I worked for Michelle helping get out the vote in the role that our friend Monica is in now. Then about three years ago, I switched over to the communications team, and one of my first projects there was that we had this podcast they wanted to restart and for, God, yeah, three years now since, we have been putting this out together, meeting once a month, usually meeting twice a month because we’re disorganized and what we do is create a podcast episode and then every time forget to do the intro and outro to it. A little behind the scenes, we have never recorded one of those in the same time we’ve recorded the interview. Michelle Bishop: They have to know because sometimes one of us just isn’t .there Stephanie Flynt McEben: Or is sick or something. Thank you- Michelle Bishop: For part of the episode, how come Stephanie was in the interview, but she wasn’t there when they did the intro? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Right. They have questions. Michelle Bishop: We’re super good at this. Stephanie Flynt McEben: We have all the questions. We are sorry guys. Sometimes we have migraines, sometimes things happen in life. Michelle Bishop: Also, Stephanie made us start the podcast. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I did not. Michelle Bishop: That was 100% Stephanie. I was the only host that was left, Justice and Erica were already gone. And Stephanie was like, “I want to host a podcast. We need to do this podcast.” And then they were like, “I guess Jack has to do it and produce it.” Stephanie Flynt McEben: So what you’re saying is that I made Jack and you do this against your will. Michelle Bishop: Yes. Stephanie Flynt McEben: No. Jack Rosen: You definitely added a significant chunk of my workload. This is one of my core responsibilities. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I’m sorry. Michelle Bishop: We remember it the same way. It was totally Stephanie. Stephanie Flynt McEben: It was not. Jack Rosen: I kind of think it was you Stephanie. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Lies, slander, blasphemy. Jack Rosen: I know Michelle did not want to start doing this again. Michelle Bishop: Another episode. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I kind of made it worth it with my awesome jokes, right, yeah? Michelle Bishop: Oh, um… Stephanie Flynt McEben: No? Jack Rosen: I’ve enjoyed Michelle’s reaction to them a lot. When did we, now I’m wondering when we started adding the puns. I think it was- Michelle Bishop: From the beginning. Jack Rosen: It wasn’t the first episode. I’m looking right now. It was the second one Stephanie. Stephanie Flynt McEben: It only took me one episode. Jack Rosen: It took you one episode, and then on the third one we added, I believe Stephanie’s iconic sound. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes. Michelle Bishop: For Stephanie’s Joke of the Month. Everyone else needs to know what we are living with over here with Stephanie and the puns. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I’m sorry that you guys have been personally victimized by me for almost four years now. Jack Rosen: So yeah, after five years here, I decided it was time to make a little bit of a career change and I decided to go to law school. I decided, I’ll say hopefully a career change, but not necessarily a field change. The law school I picked out is one that has a disability law clinic and a strong focus on public interest. It’s sort of funny. It all comes full circle that I can remember five years ago telling you guys, I don’t know a lot about this, but I’d like the opportunity. And it was something

We wrap up our series on the battle for the passage of the ADA with none other than Senator Tom Harkin. Senator Harkin was the lead sponsor of the ADA in the Senate and has spent his career being a steadfast ally to the disability community. In this interview we talk to him about what that was like, where we need to go from here, and he even stumps us with a bit of disability rights trivia. Full transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-harkin/ Michelle Bishop: Welcome back to another episode of National Disability Radio. This is the final in our series on the anniversary of the ADA. So before we jump into a very special guest that we have for you this episode, I am one of your podcast hosts, Michelle Bishop, the voter access and engagement manager at NDRN. Stephanie Flynt McEben: And I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben, public policy analyst here at NDRN, and another host, or one of our other hosts, for our podcast today. Michelle Bishop: Okay. Clearly taking his side, Stephanie. Clearly taking his side. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Okay. Okay. But Jack has proven that he is worthy of host, Michelle Bishop: Producer and pro host extraordinaire, please introduce yourself. Jack Rosen: Thank you, Stephanie. I appreciate the support. Hi, producer and host, Jack Rosen, here. Really excited about today’s episode. This guest has been at the top of our wish list for a while now, and we are so thrilled to have him on. So I suppose we want to just get into it. Michelle, why don’t you tell the folks that we have on today? Michelle Bishop: We’re really excited today to be talking to the honorable Senator Tom Harkin, who was so instrumental in so much of the early disability rights movement and passage of the ADA. In 1974, Tom Harkin was elected to Congress from Iowa’s 5th Congressional District. In 1984, after serving 10 years in the US House of Representatives, Senator Harkin was elected to the Senate and reelected in 1990, 1996, 2002, and 2008. He retired from the US Senate in January of 2015. I use the term retired loosely. He is still very active in the movement. As a young senator, Tom was tapped by Senator Ted Kennedy to craft legislation to protect the civil rights of millions of Americans with physical and mental disabilities. He knew firsthand about the challenges facing people with disabilities from his late brother Frank, who was deaf from an early age. What emerged from that process would later become his signature legislative achievement, the Americans with Disabilities Act. In September 2009, following the death of Senator Ted Kennedy, Senator Harkin became chairman of the Senate Health Education, Labor and Pensions, or as we know it, HELP Committee. Senator Harkin believed that to serve in this capacity was to carry on the legacy which helped lead to the passage of the Affordable Care Act. In 2015, Senator Harkin and Ruth Harkin establish the Harkin Institute for Public Policy and Citizen Engagement at Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa to inform citizens, inspire creative cooperation, and catalyze change on issues of social justice, fairness, and opportunity. The institute works to improve the lives of all Americans by giving policymakers access to high quality information and engaging citizens as active participants in the formation of public policy. Senator Harkin, thank you so much for joining us today. Jack Rosen: So we’re sitting here today with Senator Tom Harkin for our series commemorating the 35th Anniversary of the passage of the ADA. This is Producer Jack Rosen. I am joined by my co-hosts, Michelle Bishop and Stephanie Flynt. And to kick things off, we wanted to ask you, one thing we’ve found when talking to some of the folks who were involved in the passage of the ADA is that they recalled that was quite a fight to get people with HIV, AIDS and mental illness, as well as substance use disorders covered at the time, especially being 1990 and there was a lot of stigmatization of people with HIV, AIDS. Could you talk a little bit about that fight and why it was important for you to make sure those groups were included? Senator Harkin: Well, yes, because we didn’t want to leave any element of a disability group out of the coverage of the bill, want to be comprehensive. You start carving out one group, then there’s somebody else will carve out somebody else and the thing falls apart. The HIV, AIDS thing came up because there was so much misinformation about AIDS and how people got it. And a lot of it, let’s face it, was based on homophobia at that time. And we had some purveyors in the country and in the Senate of that kind of discrimination. Former Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina is predominant among that. And so they tried to do whatever they could to carve out that portion of our populace. Well, we were successful in the Senate in keeping it out, but the House at the last minute added what was called the Chapman Amendment. Chapman was a congressman from Texas. I think that’s right, from Texas. And at the last minute they added the Chapman Amendment to preclude coverage of the ADA for anybody with HIV or AIDS. It wasn’t just AIDS, it was HIV too, a huge populace. Well, as we pointed out at the time, everyone thought well, you only got HIV if you were practicing unsafe, same-sex. But we knew from medical studies and stuff that that just wasn’t so, it was absolutely not so at all. Well, Chapman Amendment came on at the last minute. Now keep this in mind, it’s a little bit in the weeds here on legislation. But we had passed our bill in September of 1989. It went to the House, got stuck in the House all winter until we had what was called the Capitol Crawl in March. After that, it began to get loosened up and we got it through the House, but not until the last minute the Chapman Amendment was at. And so when we went to conference… Okay, so the Senate had one bill, the House had another bill. When we went to conference, the Senate voted to instruct conferees as did the house, to instruct conferees to accept the Chapman Amendment. Well, of course, I’m the head of the subcommittee. I’m the person leading the charge on this and negotiating with the house. And we met with the disability community. And basically, I’ll tell you, the disability committee held together. They said, “If they’re out, we’re out. We won’t have a bill.” They had worked for so long and so hard to get this done. Well, so here’s what happened. We enlisted a person who had been sort of with us all along, but sort of dragged along kicking and screaming, and that was Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah. And finally, the disability community came to him and some people he knew in Utah and said, “Look, we can’t afford to let this bill die. We got to save this bill.” And so a few people came to meet with Senator Hatch and convinced him to have a substitute for the Chapman Amendment that basically said that in disregard of HIV, AIDS, et cetera, that we would rely upon the latest and best medical and scientific studies and results in order to determine the further course of action. Anyway, it was just… got rid of the Chapman Amendment and substituted this language of we’ll take the latest scientific… And we sold it on that basis. We sold it to the Senate, even though they instructed them to accept the Chapman Amendment. We went back to them and said, “Look, this is a great compromise. Who can argue that we shouldn’t use the best scientific and medical information and data?” And that’s what we did, and that was the end of it. And so then the House went back and they passed it and it came back to the Senate and we substituted our bill, because we had some different things in it. So we took my bill, the bill we’d drafted and made it the final bill and sent it to the White House. That’s a long story, but it was very involved. Michelle Bishop: It’s actually one of my favorite stories, though, I have to say, Senator, about the passage of the ADA. It was such a moment in time and the way that the disability rights community really stood together- Senator Harkin: Yeah, you did. Michelle Bishop: … in a business where it would be very easy to say, “Okay, we’ll cut these folks out and we’ll get this for the rest of us.” The way the community really stood together and the way that you released stood your ground as well for what was right for people with disabilities. Senator Harkin: Well, I’ll tell you a little story that happened before, before the Chapman Amendment, but it was right about that same time. We still had some people in the disability community that were just… They wanted this, they wanted that, and I understood that. So I got Pat Wright and some others too from California. Who am I thinking of? I just lost the name in my… Anyway, Pat Wright was there from Oakland. Who am I thinking of? The Ed Roberts Center? Michelle Bishop: Yes. It’s actually the original independent living center in Berkeley, the Ed Roberts and the Rolling Quads and… Senator Harkin: What’s it called? It was called… There’s just been a disconnect between my brain and my vocal cords. Michelle Bishop: Sir, that happens to me frequently. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, same. Senator Harkin: Okay, back up. So Pat Wright, who had been with us from the very beginning, fighting for this from the outside, so I got Pat and I said, “Look, bring together as many in the disability community you can, and we’re going to meet in that big hearing room in the Dirksen building that I had jurisdiction over.” And it was like five o’clock in the afternoon and it was packed. Everyone was there. National Federation of the Blind, National Association of the Deaf, Cerebral Palsy, on and on and on and on and on and on. They were all there. And I had Bobby Silverstein with me. And Bobby was my staff director who really, really probably single-handedly was more responsible for the ADA than any other single person. So I said to Bobby, I said, “Look, get all these people together.” I said, “I’m goin

On part two of our series commemorating the fight for the passage of the ADA, we have on long time activist Jim Dickson. Jim talks with us about the challenges they faced in getting the ADA passed, what changes he’d still like to see, and surprises us with a fun story about a former guest and friend of the podcast.   Full transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-jim-dickson/ Jack Rosen: You know, Michelle, we feel like this part of your life is more mysterious. What was living in St. Louis like? Okay, started that wrong. I’m trying to just get you to give us some St. Louis trivia. Mysterious was the wrong choice of word there. Michelle Bishop: Mysterious? Is it the biscuit? Jack Rosen: I wanted you to talk about the spaghetti and chili. That’s what I’m trying to get to, and I didn’t know how to get there. Michelle Bishop: I don’t know anything about that. I don’t even know what you’re referring to. I do know there’s definitely fish fries every Friday, and it’s always fried catfish with a side of spaghetti, if that’s what you’re thinking of. And we invented toasted ravioli, and most things that matter, like ice cream cones were invented at the 1904 World’s Fair in St. Louis. And there’s St. Louis-style pizza, but it doesn’t have mozzarella on it. It has Provel cheese, which is I’m pretty sure only exists in St. Louis. And pretty much everyone has some sort of connection to Nelly or Nelly’s mom. That’s about it. Jack Rosen: You know what? I was thinking of Cincinnati. Michelle Bishop: Gotcha. I gave all that, and you were thinking of something from Cincinnati. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Is Cincinnati famous for its pizza? Michelle Bishop: Is Cincinnati famous for- Stephanie Flynt McEben: For anything? No offense to any Cincinnatians. Michelle Bishop: Shout-out to Disability Rights Ohio. We love you. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yas. Michelle Bishop: Our bad. Our bad. I was just in Cleveland. It was cool. Do you not know Midwestern cities, Jack? Can you not tell them apart? Is it all the same to you once you get past like Buffalo? Jack Rosen: Well, then there’s Los Angeles on the other side of the country. Michelle Bishop: Hi. Welcome back to National Disability Radio. I’m Michelle Bishop, one of your co-hosts and the voter access and engagement manager at NDRN. Stephanie Flynt McEben: And I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben, public policy analyst, and also one of your hosts for this wonderful podcast here at NDRN. Michelle Bishop: And then we also have a producer, who’s just a producer. Why don’t you tell them hi, our producer? Jack Rosen: Hi, Jack Rosen here, one third of the podcasting team, as you know, a host. Michelle, do you want to tell the people who we have on today? Michelle Bishop: Yes. This is a continuation of our series on the anniversary of the ADA, and allow me first to say, Go ADA. It’s your birthday. Go ADA. It’s your birthday. Okay. I’ve been wanting to get that out since the last episode for the ADA, so thank you for humoring me. So this episode, we have Jim Dickson. He has over 30 years of experience with nonpartisan voter engagement work, particularly in the disability community. He served as the co-chair of the Civic Engagement and Voting Rights Committee for the National Council on Independent Living. He is a former vice president for organizing and civic engagement at AAPD, the American Association of People with Disabilities, where he led AAPD’s Nonpartisan Disability Vote Project, a coalition of 36 national disability organizations, whose mission was to close the political participation gap for people with disabilities, focusing on nonpartisan voter registration, education and get out the vote. He actually played a central role, along with the leadership conference on Civil and Human Rights, in passing the Help America Vote Act of 2002, and he was part of the leadership team, which passed the National Voter Registration Act, which you probably call Motor Voter. He’s the past chair of the board of advisors of the United States Election Assistance Commission, and prior to joining AAPD, where he was for a long time leading this work, Jim organized the campaign to place a statue of President Roosevelt in his wheelchair at the FDR Memorial and the National Mall in Washington, DC. He has a long history of grassroots organizing with multi-issue organizations all over the country. I know definitely in Rhode Island, Connecticut and also in California, so that covers three states Jack has probably heard of. And with the support of the Sierra Club, he organized the first grassroots congressional mobilization for the environmental movement, which resulted in the passage of the first Clean Air Act. So Jim has a long history of civil rights work and grassroots organizing, but if you know him, you probably know him for his leadership with the disability vote work. That’s how I know Jim, who’s actually been a mentor of mine for a long time. Welcome him to the podcast. Jim Dickson: So Justin Dart really used his appointment to the President’s Committee on Employment of People with Disabilities to lay the groundwork for the ADA. He and Yoshiko, his wife, went around to every state, held a public meeting and prior to going, they sent out emails saying, “Sit down for a few minutes and write down all of the experiences of discrimination that you experienced.” I don’t remember whether he said in the last week or the last month. And then in every state, they held a hearing, and people stood up and said, “I experienced discrimination because I got in an elevator, and there was no braille on the buttons, and I had to go to four floors before I got to the right floor.” That was turned into a report to Congress, and that report was used for Congress to hold hearings. The hearings were fascinating, very important. This whole process, which took years, was really the first time that anything approaching the cross-disability community existed. The blind, we were off doing our stuff. The ARC was doing their stuff. There were a few organizations like Nickel and NDRN who were cross-disability and active in more than one disability silo. But the struggle to pass the ADA really eliminated those silos. And it was really interesting both first for me, because I had never thought that the lack of a braille button in an elevator was an act of discrimination. I just thought it was a pain in the ass. And many of us began, because of the way Justin and Yoshiko framed the discussion, we really began to think for the first time in terms of civil rights, is this a discriminatory structure or situation statement? And some people got that very quickly. But I think for much of the community, not the advocates, not the lobbyists, but for the rank and file, I would say it took a good year for that perception of accesses to civil rights to really be absorbed emotionally and intellectually by much of the rank and file. Simultaneous with Justin and Yoshiko’s going around the country and collecting stories and giving a report, Evan Kemp and his partner played bridge with George Bush and Barbara Bush. They were social peers, class, old aristocratic families. And Evan got, between the shuffling, would talk about discrimination that he felt and experienced. And Evan graduated fourth in his class from Harvard Law, at the time walked with crutches and did not get one single offer from a major law firm to come and go to work, totally because using crutches, he was perceived as somehow less competent. Pat Wright with CCD, Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities, formed a strategy committee. And again, there would be 20 to 30 people at every meeting representing 20 to 30 different organizations, different segments of the community. And in the initial stages, there was a lot of talk about if you weren’t blind, the fact that there wasn’t braille on the buttons or an audio announcement on the elevator never occurred to you. So there was a lot of sharing of this experience and recognition that it was discriminatory and a violation of civil rights. And I can’t emphasize enough that the concept of it being a civil rights violation was just stunning and extremely powerful prior to this whole conversation. Those of us who had jobs, careers, when we faced a barrier, our attitude was, “I got to find a workaround. I got to fix this. I got to find a way for me to operate in light of this barrier.” Very, very few of us talked or thought in terms of this barrier is a violation of my civil rights. So the most exciting thing about the process of passing the ADA was meeting with people with different disabilities, sharing our stories. And while there would be meetings in DC, led by Pat Wright and Curt Decker, the then director of NDRN, was very important in the whole process, there were meetings with members at the grassroots level, in the beginning mostly with the staff and a few places with the members. I won’t go into the lobbying strategy and the fact that the committee, the Congress, divided the bill up and had it heard in four different committees, two in the House, two in the Senate, that required a lot of fancy footwork. What was a very important strategic decisions that, in retrospect some of us regretted that we made, was a decision that we had to exempt the churches because the conversation went something like, “We’re picking a fight with business, we’re picking a fight with state and local governments, with school boards. We can’t fight everybody. Let’s not take the churches on, too.” And that was thought through, essentially agreed to. I was one of the minor voices who said, “Yeah, we should not take the churches on.” In retrospect, I’m not sure that was the right decision, but it was made. I guess I’ll move to the signing. Michelle Bishop: Before you do that, Jim, can I ask you a couple of questions? This is fascinating, like this just has my gears turning. Well, first and foremost, the decision not to take on the churches. And now so many churc

To kick off our series highlighting the fight for the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act we have on NDRN’s founder and former Executive Director Curt Decker. Curt tells us about how the disability community came together to make sure no one was left out of the protections of the ADA and warns us about the downsides of helping getting major legislation passed in summertime in DC. Full Transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-curt-decker/ Jack Rosen: I don’t know. I guess someone has to kick it off, right? Michelle Bishop: One of us should definitely be talking. How long have we been recording? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Like four seconds? I don’t know. It’s raining outside, y’all. It’s gross. Michelle Bishop: Are we just sitting here not recording? Jack Rosen: We’re recording. Stephanie Flynt McEben: No, we’re sitting here recording. We’re just not speaking. Michelle Bishop: Sitting here recording nothing? Jack Rosen: I guess- Michelle Bishop: We can’t put out dead air. Jack Rosen: We could. We could do a more experimental- Stephanie Flynt McEben: [inaudible 00:00:24] nothing and it’d be fine. Michelle Bishop: Experimental? Jack Rosen: Yeah, we could do a more experimental type of podcast. Maybe it’s like jazz, where podcasting is about the notes you don’t play. Is that what people say about jazz? Michelle Bishop: Is it? Just roll the opening. Welcome back to National Disability Radio. I am one of your hosts. Michelle Bishop, voter access and engagement manager at NDRN. Stephanie Flynt McEben: And I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben, public policy analyst with NDRN. Michelle Bishop: And our producer who keeps trying to sneaky call himself a host. Jack Rosen: Hi, producer and host. Really bit of everything. The workhorse of the podcast, if you will. Jack Rosen here. How are you doing folks? Michelle Bishop: Not the workhorse of the podcast. Okay. Okay, wait, so this is… We’re kicking off our ADA special? Jack Rosen: Yes. This is the first for our series of interviews with folks who were involved in fighting for passage of the ADA. And for this one, we have on an old friend. Michelle, you want to tell people who we have? Michelle Bishop: So for the very first in our series on the ADA, we actually have a good friend of the podcast, Curt Decker, who is actually the former executive director of NDRN. He actually founded the National Disability Rights Network in 1982 and led the organization for, what, 40 years? Yeah, yeah. About 40 years. Before that, Curt was actually the director of the Maryland Disability Law Center, which is the Maryland PNA. He was also the director of the Help Resource Project for Abused and Neglected Children. And was a VISTA worker prior to being a senior attorney for Baltimore Legal Aid Bureau. So Curt has deep roots in Maryland and the DMV and was our fearless leader for… Stephanie, were you here when… Did you- Stephanie Flynt McEben: I was very briefly. So I started in 2021, and then Curt retired in summer of 2022. Michelle Bishop: Okay, so every single one of us can say that Curt was once upon a time our fearless leader before Marlene Sallo took the helm of NDRN. So in addition to all that, Curt actually was instrumental in the creation and passage of the ADA and was on the White House lawn the day that it was signed. And he’s here today to tell us about that experience. Curt, did you go to Hamilton? Curt Decker: Yes. Michelle Bishop: I did not know that. Curt Decker: Oh yeah. That was so weird about my life. I grew up in Albany, went to Hamilton. I got accepted to Brown, but frankly, Hamilton gave me more money. So I went to Hamilton. Money was an issue. And then I ended up at Cornell for law school and took the New York bar, came down to Baltimore for one year as a legal aid attorney and never went back, and then… Never practiced law in New York, a total waste of time to take the New York bar and they still call me now to… Please, I’m long gone. Anyway. I did a couple things in Baltimore, got hired by Maryland Disability Law Center, [inaudible 00:03:37] it was called something else then. It was the very first iteration of the PNA system when it was only developmental disabilities. And then I helped… You know the story. I helped form the national association with a bunch of other execs around the country because there wasn’t anything. And then started going over to Washington because I was the closest guy there, maybe other than DC, and started representing at NAPAS it was called then, first as a volunteer, then as a paid consultant, then executive director. Michelle Bishop: What did you do when you were actually at the Maryland PNA? Curt Decker: I was executive director. I got hired. I was running a child abuse program for the state of Maryland. I knew people around. I got a call from one of my board members who was involved. She said [inaudible 00:04:23], “This new thing that just created by Congress called the Protection and Advocacy Systems, and it’s supposed to investigate abuse and neglect of people with disabilities, and we need someone to take it over and make it work.” And I said, “I don’t know anything about disability. I have no contact with the disability community at all. I never had a disability. I really didn’t have any relatives with it, so this is way…” And they said, “No, no, we don’t care. We need someone who can get this thing together and make it work.” The child abuse program was another federal grant. It was winding down, so I was like, “Okay, I’ll try it.” And I was lucky, it was right around when 94-142 came into existence, the Rehab Act. So I was like, “Oh, these are interesting legal issues. I never knew about this.” And then I went out to Rosewood State Hospital and the director there locked me in the room, the day room, with a bunch of adult, folks with developmental disabilities and tried to scare me, and it was like… Fortunately, I wasn’t scared. It was a great story. I walked in, these men were there, they looked around, there was a new person in the room. So they got all excited and they started coming towards me and it was like, “Ooh, this is interesting.” And I smiled and they all smiled and it was like… What’s when I realized that these… We tried to close Rosewood. We finally closed it in 20… I think it was 2010. I started in 1979, and it took 30 years to close that craphole down. So when I was there, there were 3000 people at Rosewood, and then eventually we kept pushing and pushing and pushing. So yeah. It was called MAUDD, the Maryland Advocacy Unit for the Developmentally Disabled, MAUDD. And I was executive director for three years. Michelle Bishop: I actually did not realize you started as the executive director. More than 3000 people in a single institution. Curt Decker: Oh, Willowbrook was 7,000. Michelle Bishop: What? Curt Decker: Those places are big. Michelle Bishop: I did not- Curt Decker: Very big, very big. I think Willowbrook, We always tell that story in the history of the P&As, it was the largest facility for people with intellectual disabilities in the world, I think. And a nightmare. You’ve seen that video a million times, I’m sure. Michelle Bishop: [inaudible 00:06:33], yeah. Curt Decker: Anyway. Yeah, so then I started, I spent some time… I left Maryland, but I was… Were working for NAPAS, but part-time I had other clients. I had clients in Annapolis I was representing. It’s now called AAIDD, but it was called AAMR at the time. I was working part-time, I was working on the CAP program, and I was sitting in the DC P&A office writing stuff, and we got the CAP program, and then we got the CAP grant, and then that was [inaudible 00:07:05]. They hired me full-time, and I think that’s when they hired Sally Rose and off we went. We had PAD and we had CAP, and then we got PAIMI and just kept going. Michelle Bishop: That’s funny. My mentor, when I started out independent living center in Missouri, and my mentor was one of the original disability lobbyists in Missouri, and he got into that work because he was working in independent living center, and they had a bill they wanted to get passed. They didn’t have a lobbyist then. So he was like, “I’ll go.” Went and found someone to sponsor the bill, and they were like, “We’ll take care of this.” And he went back to St. Louis and they didn’t do anything. And then of course, the bill went nowhere, and that was the one they learned the lesson that, if you’re not there- Curt Decker: That’s right. Michelle Bishop: Pushing for it, it’s not going to happen. And it sounds like the P&As were created, and then you understood that if you’re not there, somebody’s not in DC protecting what we have and building upon it, it’s not going to happen. Curt Decker: And that was exactly right, because [inaudible 00:08:07] I ran this child abuse program. I had done that for four years, and again, they were all over the country, a similar model. We’d have these meetings and I would say to people… And I helped organize an association of these child abuse programs, the same because they were federally funded. When I got to the P&A and I started talking to the other executive directors in the early days, ADD had money, and they brought us all together for a meeting. And it was like, who’s representing us in Washington? Well poor Marshawn, the ARC is the guy who’s [inaudible 00:08:44], “That doesn’t make any sense.” We had big fights. The first fight was whether we should have a national association. There were a bunch of Executive Directors, “People will tell us what to do from Washington if we have that.” Well, they were right, that’s exactly what happened over the years we kept saying. “Here’s a new program. Here’s a new program. Here’s a voting program. Shut up. Take it whether you want it or not.” So we had that battle and we’ve created the national association. Then we had to say, “We need dues, we need money.” And people, “Oh, no, no, no we can’t charge, we can’t use our federal money to pay dues

After three years, Jack has finally gotten Stephanie and Michelle to do an episode about sports. And not just any sport, but golf. In this episode we sit down with Josh Basile, Andrew Mitchell, and Kate Strickland to talk about AdapTee Golf, what it means to reclaim sports as a person with a disability, and how to play the ninth hole at Sligo Creek Golf Course. Learn more about AdapTee Golf at: https://adapteegolf.com/ Learn more about Determined2Heal, Josh’s foundation focused on people with spinal cord injuries at: https://www.determined2heal.org/ Full transcript of this episode available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-june25/   Jack Rosen: So either of you watched the US Open this weekend? Stephanie Flynt McEben: No. Michelle Bishop: I did not. Jack Rosen: Well, that is an anticlimactic way to kick off this one then. For those who are interested in golf, J.J. Spaun won. It was his first major win. He sunk the putt on the last hole to be the only person over or under par at Oakmont. So that was very cool. And our guests on this episode would be interested in that and maybe no one else. Hopefully at least two of our listeners. Michelle Bishop: Jack, you open this episode talking about a golf tournament, you know full and well me and Stephanie don’t know anything about golf. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Where’s the cricket sound? I- Jack Rosen: But I guess you guys are about to learn quite a bit about golf, specifically adaptive golf. Michelle Bishop: That’s cool. We’re going to do the intro to the whole episode where we introduce ourselves or Jack is going like hella rogue today. Stephanie, how do you feel about this? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, I’m over here like, “Wait a second. We’re not good at” … I do appreciate the confidence in us, though. Michelle Bishop: I … Yeah, [inaudible 00:01:08] the episode. Stephanie Flynt McEben: What else are you going to do? Michelle Bishop: Don’t I kick off the episodes? Stephanie Flynt McEben: But this is probably the cold open. Michelle Bishop: You miss one or two episodes that get recorded when you’re traveling or so sue me that time my car broke down and now Jack’s just in here taking over the whole operation. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Man. Michelle Bishop: Wait, is this a cold open? Stephanie Flynt McEben: I figured it … I don’t know because we know nothing about golf, so I figured that Jack was just like … I don’t know. Michelle Bishop: Why don’t we ever talk before we record an episode? We could put some level of planning into this. I mean, obviously not for this episode, it’s too late now. Well, Jack, I have to say as our pro host extraordinaire that I think this month’s episode, this topic is truly your jam more than me or Stephanie will ever comprehend. So I think you have to tell the people what this episode is about this month. Jack Rosen: I’m excited. I finally did it. I finally got us to do a sports podcast. It has been years in the making and I am so excited that we got to do it for this sport, my favorite one, golf. Today, we have on Andrew Mitchell and Josh Basile and Kate Strickland with AdapTee Golf. They are here today to talk about this innovative, exciting way of playing golf for those who are physically unable to swing a golf club. Josh and Andrew invented it, which is pretty cool, and I am so excited to have them on today. I will let them introduce themselves. Josh, do you want to kick us off? Josh Basile: Absolutely, Jack. And Michelle, it’s so great to be here today. So my journey into paralysis started out two decades ago. I was on a family vacation at the beach in Delaware and turned my back to a wave. Wave picked me up and slammed me head first against the ocean floor. As an 18-year-old, I heard a loud crack and it was my fifth cervical vertebra bursting. And since then, I’ve been paralyzed below my shoulders. I was first on a ventilator, I was able to wean off that, and then was able to go through the different hospital systems and found my way home after about three months of hospitals. And when I did return home, even before my injury, when I was … Actually, the moment after my injury when I was pulled onto the beach, I remember my dad running down to the beach, my friends got him, and he looked at me and I was like, “Dad, what about our tea time tomorrow?” It was something that I was looking forward to all summer long just to be able to play with my dad. And he’s like, “Josh, we’re not going to be able to make this one.” But when I did return home, I always just had a dream of the game of golf and being able to play again, but physically, I couldn’t. So that’s just a little bit about me. Or the other thing I would share is I started a nonprofit and went through the vocational system in my state of Maryland, and ended up going from community college to undergrad to law school, and now I’m a practicing attorney for the last 13 years. So that’s a little bit about me and I’ll throw it over to Andrew. Andrew Mitchell: Hi, Jack, Michelle, esteemed audience. Thanks for having me today. So Josh and I have been friends since I think fourth grade, and Josh beat me up on the tennis court and our lives went different directions and we reconnected with each other while we were taking a few classes at a local community college and we both connected over poker and golf. So I was on the slingshot with Josh, I don’t know, starting, what would you say, Josh, like 12 years ago maybe was the first time I ever did it with you. Josh Basile: 12, 15 years ago was when this all started up. Andrew Mitchell: Yeah, something in that range. So we stayed friends and got on the golf course maybe two or three times a year, and I was in between degrees at UMBC and Josh needed a little help with daytime caregiving. I decided to help out for just a few weeks, and then a few weeks turned into March 14th, 2020, and I was very lucky to have a job. So I just decided, “Okay, I’m going to take everything I can learn from someone who excels in his field, and I’m going to take everything I can learn about caregiving and just see what I can make of this.” And in that experience, we found that golf was one of the only things we could do that was safe during the lockdown. So we had such a good time golfing. We came across a piece of equipment that Rick Shiels had done a video on, the Swingless Golf Club, and that was the final piece of the puzzle to get us starting from the tee box with everybody else and had an incredible time putting all those pieces together. Josh’s invention, the pendulum putter, his way that he was able to put the slingshot together with all the degrees and the degrees that we use on the pendulum putter, degrees, power, et cetera. And then the Swingless Club, it was such a good experience being able to get out there and play and sharpen Josh’s skill with the game that we collectively we’re chewing on this dream of how do we bring this to the rest of the country because there was just no way that we were going to be the only ones enjoying it the way that we were. So we applied for a grant from the Craig Neilsen Foundation last year. So 2024, around April, we got the confirmation that we got the grant. I want to say was it late August last year? Josh Basile: Yeah, it was during the Adventurous weekend. We were bringing 50 families to an annual event that we do in Virginia Beach. So it was mid-August, I could tell you the date. Andrew Mitchell: Yeah. And so I got the news when Josh invited me down to just put on a clinic with the folks on the Adventurous weekend and changed my life. So here we go. This is what I do now and I’m trying to build awareness for the program. I’m taking folks out on the course. I’m hosting events with Josh, and you’ll meet our other guest on the podcast here, Kate Strickland. She’s one of our fiercest competitors in the program. And this has just been a dream. It’s a dream come true to be able to spend my life helping out the disability community, the mobility disability community, and to be able to permanently grow the game of golf. Josh Basile: So Jack, just to give you another little background of the golfing journey per se. Basically when I did return home from the hospital and being paralyzed below my shoulders, I started going back out to golf courses with my friends and family, and I would always get on the course, but I’d be a spectator. And for about five years after my injury, just I kept going back and I loved it. I loved being out there. I loved being surrounded by green grass and by trees and by the wind, by the sun, and that was just super special. But every time I left the course, I would always be frustrated because I mentally had the game to play, but I couldn’t pick up a club or grab a club and swing it like I used to. So one night, I ended up having a dream of this putting apparatus that could swing back and forth like a pendulum off of a pole and just go back and forth, back and forth. And next thing I know, that next day, I went to the hardware store, got all this PVC pipe, an old putter, and rigged together the pendulum putting device that could strike a golf ball and was able to bring it out to my local golf course and it worked. And so that said, you know what? I could get the ball in the hole. How do I get the ball to the green? And at that time, tested a bunch of things out. We found that the easiest way to advance a golf ball was a slingshot where you could have somebody put the ball in the pocket and basically I’d be behind a caregiver or a family member or friend who would be operating it and I could direct them pulling it back. And depending on the power you pull it back or the angle of the slingshot in the air, you can basically drop it wherever you want on a golf course, anywhere from five yards to sometimes over 150 yards depending on the strength of the person. They can go more than a football field and just drop the ball. So that’s how we played the game of golf. We called it slingshot golf for the firs

Congress? The budget? What’s the whole deal there? You asked, we brought someone on who answered! NDRN’s Deputy Executive Director for Public Policy Eric Buehlmann came on the podcast to explain what’s going on with the budget and how it impacts the funding NDRN and the Protection and Advocacy network receives. Full Transcript Available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-may25/ Tell Congress to Protect our Programs: https://secure.everyaction.com/I6avR5LSvUamWdNZNIgMew2   Jack Rosen: And Michelle, do you want to kick us off? Michelle Bishop: Are we recording? I’m totally sending a text message. Okay. Okay, I’m ready. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Well, now we have our whole… Blah. Now we have our cold open. Michelle Bishop: Of course we do work on these. We somehow put out an episode every month. Okay. Wait, wait, wait. Are we doing the opening for the whole episode or are we just getting our conversation with Eric started? Stephanie Flynt McEben: I thought we were doing the conversation with… Wait, I don’t care. Jack Rosen: I guess just with Eric. If we have time at the end, we’ll do an open and close, but here, I think I can- Michelle Bishop: I know, but I don’t know how to frame what this conversation is. It might be- Stephanie Flynt McEben: Like spilling the tea on all things. I don’t know. Jack Rosen: That will be the podcast title, but- Stephanie Flynt McEben: I love that. Michelle Bishop: Thank you. Jack Rosen: Just ask me who our guest is today and I think I can take it from there. Michelle Bishop: Okay, deal. *Intro Music Plays* Jack, tell the people who our guest is this month. Jack Rosen: So today, we have on Eric Buehlmann, NDRN’s director of public policy and Stephanie’s boss. He is here today to… Folks have a lot of questions about what’s going on with our funding. We’ve seen a lot in the news about proposed cuts to various programs that the P&A network supports, and folks within and throughout the network have a lot of questions about what’s going on right now. So we’re bringing in Eric Buehlmann, NDRN’s director of public policy, congressional insider, and expert on all things budgetary. Stephanie Flynt McEben: And fierce leader of the public policy duo here at NDRN, so yeah, Eric, if you want to spill some tea. Eric Buehlmann: Thanks for inviting me on today. So I feel overwhelmed by the introduction in terms of being a congressional expert on the budget, but it is a very confusing and hidden process in a lot of respects, but also very scary because as you all well know, our members, the protection and advocacy and client assistance programs depend on the federal funding to provide the great advocacy work they’re doing. I guess from the beginning, the president is supposed to propose a budget, and we haven’t really seen a full budget yet proposed. We have seen some things leaked which were very devastating to our network in terms of getting rid of what I call the mothership program or defunding the mothership program, the Protection and Advocacy for Developmental and Disabilities program, but also in the same breath, the voting program, and then also severely curtailing the mental illness program, PAMI. So that leaked budget was very scary, but is also one of those steps that most people don’t ever see. It usually takes place the year before, so in this case, this would have taken place in 2024. That kind of discussion between the Office of Management and Budget and the agency, Health and Human Services would have taken place. But because we have a new president that came in, those discussions were taking place earlier in 2025, but that’s also just one step. So the agency does get to push back on any proposal that they get from the Office of Management of Budget, and our understanding is that there was some pushback. We don’t know exactly what that pushback is, but that could mean that there aren’t defunding those programs. It could mean reductions in the amounts of cuts that existed. It could mean anything. Most recently, the president released what’s called a skinny budget, and that is usually what happens when a new administration, a new president comes in, because they haven’t been working on it for the last eight, 10 months. It’s hard to produce a 1,200-page document, 1,200 pages plus that the president’s budget usually is, so you get what’s called a skinny budget, which just has top line numbers. You can see the problems that may exist in those top line numbers with huge reductions in what they released in what’s called discretionary funding. That’s what’s done by Congress, and especially the non-defense side, which is where all our funding is. But you can see by just the sheer fact of a 23% reduction, which is just a massive reduction in that kind of funding, that that probably has a negative impact on our programs, but it doesn’t get down to the detail of those kinds of levels in terms of being able to know what the impact is on every single program. So we know this giant bad number out there, but we don’t know what that specifically means for our individual programs. We may later this summer. They may release a full budget. They don’t have to, but they may release a full budget at that point and then we’ll know what these implications mean, but again, that’s just another step in the process. Then comes the work of getting Congress to pass the appropriations bills, and that’s their job. They’re supposed to fund these programs and make the decisions. Ultimately, it’s not the president that makes those decisions. It’s Congress that has that authority to decide what the appropriations are going to be, and that’s where our work needs to be, is making sure that Congress understands the importance of all of our programs and that they’re out there and that they do wonderful work and that they need to be funded, not only just funded at the same level. They need to actually have increased funding so that we can do more and more work that we really need to do and that we know is out there. And so that’s really where our focus is right now, is making sure that Congress gets the important work of our members and our work and the work you guys are doing. And so therefore, we’re making the case to Congress and then hopefully over the next couple of months as Congress begins to consider these bills and decides what their funding priorities are going to be, that they may be. I would be surprised. I think right now, we go for level funding is a great win given what we’ve seen out there for numbers and that hopefully we can maybe get an increase here or there, but that’s where our focus is right now, is making sure that Congress understands and that over the next couple of months, that they will fund our programs. I will stop talking for a second. Michelle Bishop: Eric, I heard you mention PAD program and PAMI program. Did you mention that Pavo was also zero allocation in that budget? Eric Buehlmann: I thought I did. Michelle Bishop: I hope so. I was going to say, “Eric, I’m right here.” Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes. Michelle Bishop: I’m right here. Eric Buehlmann: I said the voting program. Michelle Bishop: Oh, okay. You did say, yeah. I just missed it. I was getting ready to come out swinging, guys, because- Jack Rosen: No, he did. He also acknowledged that they’re trying to zero out the program that funds all the work our PAVA folks do, including- Michelle Bishop: Okay. My bad. My bad. Sorry, Eric. We’ve been friends too long for this to be the rift between us. I did also have a legitimate question. I know there’s been a lot of talk in the last couple of months about federal grants and contracts. We’ve seen attempts to freeze all of the grants. We are hearing that contracts have gotten canceled. Can you give, for people who don’t live in this world all the time, a breakdown of what is the difference between a federal grant and a federal contract, and what does it actually take to alter them or eliminate them? Eric Buehlmann: You’ve raised another important issue, which is a lot of our members are still waiting for their ’25 funding, and hopefully that’s going to happen over the next couple of weeks. Even though Congress finished out what is the current fiscal year, fiscal year 2025 back in March, they haven’t released all the funding, so our members have been suffering through trying to keep doing their work and tapping their reserves and things like that. And hopefully, that funding’s going to be released in the next couple of weeks so that you know how much money you’re going to be getting. That will run through September 30th and you can continue doing the work you’re doing. Really, the difference between grants and contracts comes down to, in my mind, whether this is something that is required. Required is a tough word because that to me usually means an entitlement, but our funding is what’s considered to be a formula grant, and you get the amount of money, you run the formulas and then people get a certain amount of money. So you’re required to send that money out under the formula, and that’s usually a grant. If the federal government’s trying to get something like some research or I use widgets or $60 million airplanes that will drop into the Red Sea, then those are usually contracts, and so that is just something not required by the law to go do, but that they seek the services from someone else to do those kinds of activities. So our members get grants because it’s just a formula, but if you’re doing research for the federal government or, as I said, producing widgets, then you’ll get a contract from the federal government. And I think the contracts at times can be a little tougher to cancel because there’s usually terms and conditions in them, but they’re going about doing it, and you have to figure out how you’re going to enforce what the contract said at that point. Jack Rosen: So since you mentioned the difference between grants and contracts, we should note that they are proposing in theo

This episode we had on Taylor Easley for Social Work Month. Taylor talks about her experiences earning a social work degree and how social work overlaps with the disability rights movement. Link to full transcript: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-mar25 Michelle Bishop: I’m not usually the recorder, so God knows. We’ll just start having a conversation and nothing will be recording. Jack, do not put this in the episode. That’s going to be in the episode. All right. Stephanie, do you want to get us started? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Sorry. Apparently Quinn found a cat on the side of the road that looks lonely and now they want to bring it home. Pray for me. Michelle Bishop: That’s your cat now, just so you know. Stephanie Flynt McEben: No. Michelle Bishop: This is how you get a cat. Nobody goes and buys a cat. A cat finds you. That’s how it works. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I know, and Quinn called me and is like, “I need to get it.” My wife, by the way, just for some context, Taylor. I’m like, “No, no, no. I mean, I guess if the cat looks lonely, you can bring the cat, but I don’t know.” I’m like, “Okay.” Michelle Bishop: Oh my gosh. Congratulations on your new cat, Stephanie. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I’m not ready for this. Michelle Bishop: So excited for your growing family. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Nope, nope, nope. Okay, perfect, perfect. Catastrophic. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh yeah, Stephanie likes puns. Michelle Bishop: Taylor, if you’re not ready for the bad puns, Stephanie is the queen of bad puns. That’s the other thing you have to know. Taylor Easley: I’m ready for them. Stephanie Flynt McEben: They are puntastic. Wait, are we recording or no? Michelle Bishop: Oh, we’re totally recording. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh, schnitzel face. Well, Jack, you’ve got your cold open, don’t you? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Alrighty. Well, Taylor, thank you so, so, so much for being on today’s podcast. Before we get into your experience at the P&A, would love to just hear a little bit more about your background and how you got into this work and what brought forth your passion to this work. Taylor Easley: Yes. First, thank you so much for this opportunity for me to be on the podcast and hear my story. I’m very grateful and humbled. Taylor Easley: My name is Taylor Easley. I have a masters in social work from Virginia Commonwealth University. How I got into this work is that, well, one, I always loved helping people. I used to volunteer at a nursing home when I was in high school, so me helping people isn’t new to me, and when I got into school, I fell in love with social work and I ended up doing multiple internships between undergrad and grad school before working at the P&A of working in the disability community. Some were working in the group home, some were working in a group setting and some have even have been working in policy. Taylor Easley: In my senior year of MSW program, I ended up working at the P&A system and working at Disability Law Center of Virginia and that’s where I really fell in love with disability and disability rights and that’s one of the biggest steps of why I am here today. Stephanie Flynt McEben: That’s amazing. Thank you so, so much for sharing that. And it’s so interesting how so many of us, it’s been a very common theme from this podcast in terms of talking about how individuals with disabilities and without disabilities have just stumbled into this field in a lot of ways by happenstance. So no, thank you so much for sharing. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I know you pointed out your experience at the P&A as an intern. Would love to hear a little bit more experience about that and how that’s propelled you forward in your current career aspirations. Taylor Easley: I started as an MSW intern there at the P&A system, Disability Law Center of Virginia. It was a great experience. I learned a lot. I actually improved in my writing there. I learned what it really meant to really advocate for people with disabilities on a macro level. In social work we have the macro, mezzo, micro, well, I’m saying it wrong. We have three different levels in social work. One is working with clients one-on-one, the other one is working in groups in the community, and the last one, the biggest level, macro, is working in the community at large, but systemic policy level. And that’s what I got to do a lot at the Disability Law Center of Virginia. Taylor Easley: I would write articles. Actually, one of my first articles I wrote was about cerebral palsy. I have cerebral palsy myself, so that was definitely a way to honor people with cerebral palsy, but let them also know about the P&A system in a way. Taylor Easley: I was able to go on monitoring visits and actually be in the community and see how people with disabilities need help. I was on phone calls, I was in different types of meetings that they had and that was all as an intern. I later applied for the public health fellowship at the Disability Law Center and working there. And there I worked there for two years. There is where I really, really grew in working in the field, doing more work, taking more on tasks, reviewing report, leading meeting, and really understand what the disability community needs and understanding that it’s not just about getting the information to the P&A, but how do we get it out to the disability community. That’s one of the things that I did there at the Disability Law Center of Virginia, is that I found a way to take the information that was coming into the dLCV and make sure that the disability community and staff, that they had it. Michelle Bishop: Taylor, I’m vibing on all of this because, I don’t know if you realize this, you know we’re both social workers, but we’re also both Virginians. So I’m very excited about all of this. Thank you for representing for our people. Michelle Bishop: I wanted to ask you, I always wanted know, I always wanted to do the work that I’m doing now. I knew that from a young age, but when I thought about where that would take me, does that mean being a political science major? Where does this go? I chose social work because I really liked that social work as a profession is very centered on the person and how programs and structures are going to impact the person, and that to me was really meaningful. I’m wondering from you as a social worker and a person with experience with the P&As and the disability rights movement and as a person with lived experience of disability, do you see overlap between those ethics and values that are adopted by social workers and some of the tenants of the disability right movement? Taylor Easley: Definitely yes. I do see a overlap between the ethics and values between social work and the disability rights movement. And I also see it not just in social work as a whole, however, I’m also part of the National Association of Black Social Workers, so I do see the overlap there. Taylor Easley: Let’s start with social work. A lot of what social work is, person centered, they want to make sure that the client is getting what they need. We want to make sure that clients understand their rights, that they are not abused. That definitely go along with the disability rights movement. And that’s why I am not really surprised that there are a lot of social workers who work at the P&A system, at least at the Disability Law Center of Virginia. I am not very surprised because there is a lot of overlap except the biggest thing in the disability rights movement is that the client is a person with a disability, and that’s where we lean onto a lot wholly. Taylor Easley: For the Association of Black Social Workers, our values and ethics, they overlap a lot too, however, the focus is about people who are black. For me, I just don’t fit in with the disability rights movement, I also fit in with the Association of Black Social Workers because I am disabled and because I’m black. The only difference between the biggest two is that it’s the focus of the group. But with the National Association of Black Social Workers, we do want to hear the whisperings. We do want to know how do we help people. So we need disabilities, people with disabilities, excuse me. Sorry starting over. Taylor Easley: We need people with disabilities, lived experience, who are black in the Association of Black Social Workers. That organization is very Afrocentric, so the focus is around black people, but again, we are about community. We are about togetherness. We are about uplifting people. We are about social justice, social action, everything that the disability rights movement is. And I’m pretty sure there is a lot more. But those are just some of the big key things that I see between social workers, the National Association of Black Social Workers and the disability rights movement have in common. And the biggest thing is that are for the people, we are for the community and we want to help better serve the community that we are a part of. Michelle Bishop: I think we have to acknowledge too if we’re going to talk about social work and disability, that there is some prejudice out there about social workers, who we are and what it is that we do. Even if you don’t have any experience with a social worker, I think a lot of folks concept of what that means comes from primetime television. Every hospital drama, every police drama has a social worker who shows up and they’re going to do something drastic like take your children away, but they’re wrong about what’s going on and the doctor or the police officer has to stop them. These incompetent social workers. And that’s a lot of the images of us that are out there. But also, having been in the disability rights movement for so long, I also know some incredible disabled advocates who’ve also realistically had some bad experiences in the past with social workers that maybe weren’t doing the work from a more holistic, disability forward perspective. So I respect that as well. Michelle Bishop

Friend of the pod and NDRN colleague Monica Wiley joins us to talk about the role models that inspired her own activism. Full Transcript Available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-feb25/ Stephanie Flynt McEben: All righty, folks, so we have the pleasure and privilege to sit down with one of our lovely colleagues, Monica Wiley who is going to, talk about Fannie Lou Hamer and the contributions and how she paved the way, for individuals when it came to various advocacy within the disability rights movement. And just, just various things along that nature. Monica, we are so excited to have you. Monica Wiley: Thank you so much Stephanie, for that warm introduction. I am delighted to be here and to talk about Fannie Lou Hamer and all of the great advocacy work that she has done, and pave the way for someone like myself to continue in that advocacy and that activism world. So I’m delighted to to be here and speak about her and, another individual as well that we all have, grown to love and definitely appreciate that, unfortunately, is no longer with us, but his legacy has left a, a blueprint, a print, in the advocacy world to make sure that we continue to to advocate as much as possible. Stephanie Flynt McEben: So people with disabilities. Absolutely. And just so just some quick background, because I know that, you know, some folks know about Fannie Lou Hamer is contributions, but but would love to, you know, if you could give some background on the contributions that that Fannie Lou Hamer, Hamer has made, to the disability rights movement, but also to what contributions particularly stuck out to you personally? Monica Wiley: Thank you so much, Stephanie, for the question. I love this question and happy to share about Fannie Lou Hamer. So let me answer the first part, of the question. Fannie Lou Hamer was a, a woman, a pioneer in the advocacy movement, that during the 1960s. And what I liked about Fannie Lou Hamer was that while she was a fierce advocate for justice rights, disability rights, she was a person who had a disability, who was born with polio, had polio at the age of two or maybe three. I think it was around 2 or 3 years old, and she walked with a visible limp. But what was amazing to me was that while she was building and coalition building and having others born into the advocacy movement, to to fight for advocacy and disability rights, they looked beyond her disability. And that was what was so impressive to me. And that is what I liked about her as well, is that while she had this disability and she walked, uneven because she walk with a limp because of the polio, she did not let that stop her. And I feel that that is the fuel that we have today, in terms of the advocacy world, is that we don’t let that stop us. And I believe that’s what made her so impressive, even during the 1960s, when she gave such an impassioned speech, about advocacy and about rights and that is what that’s so impressive. And I think that is what the disability community even finds impressive about her today, because we tend to love to adopt her slogan, which is what makes us so, so incredible as a community that we’re sick and tired of being sick and tired and and that slogan can be used for so many different and so many ways, for so many different reasons. But then the disability community and then the advocacy community for disability rights, sick and tired of being sick and tired means that we’re sick and tired of not just being considered as as a community that is whole because we are whole human beings like everyone else. And so we are sick and tired of not being considered as whole. And that’s what Fannie Lou Hamer was about. That’s what her advocacy was about. And that is why we are connected to a man and a black woman with a disability. And I do, have a visible disability because I walk with a cane when I am not in my travel scooter. And today, yes, I still get some looks and stares.But when I open my mouth and I talk about the importance of us coming together to strengthen advocacy for disability rights, that it’s when you’re and you’re then beginning to see that they can look beyond your disability, like the way that they did during that time in the 1960s, how they look beyond Fannie Lou same or disability and saw her as a fierce, true leader and that in that field. And so that is what connects me to her in so many ways. She is one of my sheroes, and I really feel that the disability community likes about her as well, and her advocacy is the fact that she even look beyond her own disability and then allow others to see that disability prevent her from her great work in the advocacy world. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I absolutely agree with that 100%. And, you know, I think one thing that I personally appreciate about Fannie Lou Hamer is the fact that, you know, she wasn’t all talk. Right. And I feel like sometimes, you know, folks, while they are well-meaning, you know, sometimes people will say things and not act on them. And when she said, I’m sick and tired of being so sick and tired, she acted on that. Monica Wiley: She worked, to try to, you know, make this world a better place for for all of us and various communities. Absolutely, absolutely. Beautifully said, Stephanie, that she did and that that slogan made her again, the, the the desire every single day to get up and and make society and make our community just a better place overall and a better, just a better community overall and a better society overall, So the betterment of our community and society as a whole. So absolutely, I agree with you 100%, Jack Rosen: Thanks for sharing that, Monica. I was wondering if you could tell us who else has inspired you and your journey as an activist? Monica Wiley: Thank you for the question, Jack. Yes, so many have inspired me, but the the other person that comes to mind when I think of my work in the advocacy world and disability rights is the late Congressman John Lewis, and may he rest in power. Congressman John Lewis was a very to some amazing, amazing, man and leader from the South. And I always love to say, one of his, his, his mantras, one of his slogans, which is, you know, it’s nothing wrong with getting into good trouble. And that’s how I look at disability rights and and advocacy. It’s getting into good trouble. Because the trouble that we are getting into is good. It is for the betterment of our community, for the betterment of society, for our, for just the advocacy that we’re doing to be beneficial for for us and for everyone that is a part of our community connected to our community. So advocacy is good. Trouble getting into good trouble, making sure that we eliminate the bad troubles and creating some good trouble. And so that’s what I loved about Congressman John Lewis, was that he, he was proud to be a person that was about making history and history in a sense of good trouble. For those who don’t may not know about Congressman John Lewis background, Congressman John Lewis, was such a, a fierce, advocate for, for, for rights, just, just, just basic human rights. But what he, is highly revered, of is him leading about 600 people across the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma to fight for the rights, for for voting rights. And while it did not go the way that, that we, we had hoped for or especially at what they hoped for, that during that time, although they were fighting for good trouble. It didn’t go as well, that they had anticipated. But the beauty of the good trouble that came out of that situation, because there was still some good trouble that, that is with us today. The beauty, about that was that while they encountered some hardships, and some struggles as they cross, the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, that definitely led to voting rights and and just disability rights because he experienced, disability during that time. During that period, because of what happened to him. But he didn’t let that disability stop him. He continued to fight for disability rights and for for advocacy, and ended up becoming a member of Congress, when he ran for Congress, and Georgia. So Congressman John Lewis and Anthony Lou Hamer were both pioneers and individuals and the advocacy world and the voting rights world. And also we and the disability community have adopted, that, that that slogan, that it’s it’s always good to get into some good trouble. Never be afraid, to get into some good trouble. Are the two pioneers that I championed and and the work that I do that keeps me grounded. And and positivity. In terms of me fighting for disability rights, for my rights and for the continuation and the support of advocacy for my community and for us all. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Okay, I love that. And can I just say that advocacy is good trouble or advocacy makes good trouble needs to be one of the t shirts that we sell in our merch shop. Know what I like that I do like that I didn’t even realize that effective. I would try to be tied to my words. I’m like, go, Monica, go like yes, oh my gosh, I’m totally here for it. Of course we should totally, you know, attribute like, you know, the paraphrase to you as well. Like I am totally here for this. I like that Monica Wiley: Jack did that answer your question? Jack Rosen: It did. Thanks for coming on today, Monica, do you have any closing thoughts? Monica Wiley: I was going to say no, but yes, I do. I just first, I want to thank you, to, this this podcast to my colleagues for having me come on here to talk about two amazing leaders, that, that we’re paying respects to for their contributions to the advocacy world. And may we just continue to stand on their shoulders and continue to be their, their biggest accomplishments, because this is what they wanted to see. And I hope that we just continue to think of them as we continue to run across some obstacles and some hurdles and some mountains at times. But think about those mountains and hurdles that they came across. But they stil

Friend of the pod and NDRN alumni Ian Watlington get’s back on his advocacy horse to talk to us about the impact sudden weather events like the recent DC blizzard can have on folks with disabilities. Full Transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-jan25/   Jack Rosen: Yeah, I guess we’re just doing this. We don’t know where Michelle is. She has abandoned us. Stephanie Flynt McEben: That’s fine. I feel very abandoned right now. Jack Rosen: If she’s too cool for us, if this is like John Lennon leaving the Beatles, she’s going to do a new experimental podcast. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh, I have a song for that. This is the potential breakup song. I don’t think Allie and AJ are going to sue us. Jack Rosen: She’s not even here to stop us from getting sued. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I know. And she’s supposed to be like fancy, legally something. Jack Rosen: I know. So now the hosts of the podcast are me, you and Nala. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Hey, you’re now a host since Michelle’s not here to stop it. You are a host. Jack Rosen: I’m finally free of Michelle bullying me about not being a host. There is that. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Love it. Should I kick us off? Or I don’t even… Wait, which- Jack Rosen: It’s a whole new era of the podcast. I don’t even know if we’re kicking it off or just doing sort of a stream of consciousness thing, and then eventually we get to the interview. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, that sounds great. We’re going to hear from our pal Ian Watlington about all things snow and navigating somebody who uses a wheelchair in the city, and all of the chicken nugget-like things that people will sometimes put on curb cuts. Just a note to folks who may not realize, don’t put snow on curb cuts, because then it turns into ice, and then that could really hurt disabled people. So let’s make that our 2025 resolution to make sure that we protect the lives of all people. Jack Rosen: Yes. In fact, I’ll go a step further. Don’t put anything on the curb cuts really. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Thank you. Or especially those scooters. Jack Rosen: Those should be on them, the little bumps that I’m forgetting the term for, but nothing else. Stephanie Flynt McEben: The truncated domes, I think is what they’re called? Jack Rosen: Is that… If only we had someone who knew a ton about the ADA, mostly through voting, but she knows the ADA and could tell us what those are called. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Right. Jack Rosen: Anyway, enjoy our interview with friend of the pod and NDRN alumni, Ian. Michelle Bishop: So Ian, thank you so much for joining us for the podcast today. This is our special snowed in episode because of the rather unexpected amount of snow that we’ve gotten in the DC area. This past week has us all shut into our homes. And I’m betting it did the same thing to you. Ian Watlington: Exactly. I’ve been home and just hanging out. Well, I’ve been working. Let’s not discredit that, but I’ve been working, but pretty much stuck in my apartment. Michelle Bishop: Same here. Honestly, I tried yesterday to go outside for the first time to brush off my car, and in attempting to clean the snow off my car, I fell. Ian Watlington: Oh, no. Michelle Bishop: I know. Which you know is a very serious issue in the life of a person with a disability. You can’t just go outside in all this. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Ian, the only time I’ve gone out is to play Frisbee with my dog because she’s obsessed with playing Frisbee in the snow. Michelle Bishop: I mean, she’s a dog. I respect it. But can I tell you, the only response I got from my family about me falling while trying to brush off my car is, “I hope one of your neighbors captured it on their Ring cameras.” Ian Watlington: Oh, well that’s not very loving. Michelle Bishop: Mom. Ian Watlington: Yeah. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I was about to say, was that Carol? Because that sounds like a Carol response. Michelle Bishop: You know she’s a savage. So yes. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Shout out to Carol. Ian Watlington: She’s spicy. Michelle Bishop: So let’s talk about it, Ian. We wanted to pull you in on this episode as our resident expert on being snowed in as a person with a disability. Because you’ve been in the DMV for years now. You have gone through many… Also people don’t know in the DC area, we like to give ridiculous names anytime a single snowflake falls from the sky, Snowmageddon, Snowpocalypse, it’s very dramatic around here. And you’ve weathered a bunch of those. Ian Watlington: Right. Michelle Bishop: And talk a little bit about what it’s like as a person with a disability, especially the preparedness and response measures that we see from not just DC, we’re not here picking necessarily on the District of Columbia, from a lot of local governments in terms of their snow maintenance. Ian Watlington: Well, yeah. I wasn’t here for Snowmageddon, I don’t think, but I was here for Snow Apocalypse or however we called it. You’re exactly right. We come up with ridiculous names. But no matter… I mean, if a significant amount of snow falls, the lack of planning becomes very obvious rather quickly because then you have lovely, and I support my fellow drivers as much as I can, but when they start doing the streets, it brushes all of that snow debris, which is now a combination of snow and ice, can’t just have snow anymore. We have to have ice because they wait a while, and it goes right up on the curb cut. It’s like perfectly placed to do that. And I have made a big stink about this for many years because… This one’s a little bit different because there’s a lot of ice. And I don’t know how my new motorized chair does with that, but I’m assuming not so well, so I’m being very careful. But when it’s time to get out of the house, you shouldn’t still have an ice block of slush and ice and dirt and whatever at the curb. And it’s just like nobody thinks about it. It’s just like, “Well, I guess they think I’ll just go around it somehow,” but I’m not sure. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Well, also… Oh, I’m sorry, Ian. Ian Watlington: No, it’s okay, Stephanie. I’m just not sure what their logic is or what they think or if they’re even thinking of us at all. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Well, that’s what I want to know. Isn’t it common… Because I know that I’ve seen it done where they will literally shovel the snow onto the curb cuts. There’s snow already there, of course. But I’ve heard about different folks having to deal with snow that is being shoveled even more onto the curb cuts. Is that something that you’ve experienced? Ian Watlington: I’ve mainly experienced the snow shovels on the street clearings covering the curb cuts. But I know a lot of times I have friends that live in suburbia, and a lot of times a neighbor will be so kind to put their snow on a ramp or a curb cut. So it’s an issue that people think it’s just a lovely place to put the snow. And what bothers me is nobody seems to care. And what I don’t understand further is that they’re creating more of a problem for themselves in the future. So for example, if I were to go outside and I were to try to get around the massive curb cut snow ice ball thingy, I’d most likely get stuck. And then who do I call? Except when I’ve gotten stuck before in other instances, which thankfully hasn’t been a lot, you call the fire department. The fire department can just get you out of that one little situation, it can’t take care of the weather. But again, the first responders even aren’t prepared. Michelle Bishop: Nor do we need to give our first responders more work to do in the middle of a weather emergency. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Right. Ian Watlington: Exactly. Michelle Bishop: Those things that are preventable, we should probably try to prevent, because they’ve got a lot on their plates when the weather goes wrong. Ian Watlington: Right, that’s why I’m hanging out at home. Exactly. I’m not trying to give anybody any extra work. I just wish I felt relevant. Does that make sense? Michelle Bishop: It does. Because I think something you said in the beginning to me is true. I think they’re not thinking about us at all. I think people are thinking they see a convenient place to pile the snow and they’re not thinking, “There’s probably a reason we built the curb that way. Why would you take the extra step of making it cut away if someone didn’t need it?” I think they’re not thinking about us. Ian Watlington: No. No, I don’t think so either. And I’ve tried calling the city council. I don’t know how many years ago. If you can believe this, I’ve been in DC now for 13 years, and so I can’t remember exactly when this was, but I was on the local news about the curb cut issue. So this is an issue near and dear to my heart, but I feel like I’m out of… I’m a professional advocate, but I feel like I’m out of strategies because I don’t know how to make it seem important to really focus on this issue. Michelle Bishop: Yeah, that makes sense to me. And I think it’s not even just the inconvenience of it, right? It’s really inconvenient if you can’t get out of your house. It’s inconvenient if you get stuck somewhere trying to get over some snow and the fire department has to get you out and all of that. But it’s also dangerous. Ian Watlington: Right. Michelle Bishop: In a number of ways, it’s incredibly dangerous. Wheelchairs and scooters that go sliding on ice can have serious consequences. A wheelchair that gets stuck in the snow could tip, and the person who relies on it could fall out and get injured. And in my experience, a lot of people who use wheelchairs and scooters end up rolling in the street, which is dangerous enough at any time, but especially in snow conditions where the roads are already going to be narrower, because snow piled up on the side of the roads, and the roads are slick, and cars don’t necessarily have the same level of control, and they can’t stop as fast. It’s dangerous. People could get hurt. And there are people who get hit in the stree

The gang celebrates the holidays with a slightly disorganized episode talking about our holiday traditions and how we’re celebrating this year. Sort of featuring special guest Quinn McEben.   Link to our Bonfire shop: https://www.bonfire.com/store/national-disability-rights-network/ Stephanie Flynt McEben: Well, hello, podcast listeners of the universe. We are doing a different episode this month, which is why I chimed in before Michelle could to introduce the fun episode. So I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben. I am one of your hosts here at the National Disability Rights Network for National Disability Radio. Michelle Bishop: Hey hey, it’s Michelle Bishop, and I am the manager for voter access and engagement here at NDRN, and one of your hosts. And I didn’t have to start the episode, so I guess I just get to retire now, guys, and this might be my last episode. Stephanie Flynt McEben: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that’s not how it goes. Also I forgot to say that I’m a public policy analyst. Excuse me for butchering my title after being here for three years. Michelle Bishop: And we also have a producer. Jack Rosen: Hi. Michelle Bishop: I got in there with that real quick on producer. Jack Rosen: Really, even at the holiday spirit, you couldn’t acknowledge my hosting? Michelle Bishop: Pro host. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Pro host. Michelle Bishop: Pro host. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Honestly, that sounds fancy. Like I almost like the title of pro host because it like makes you sound all like fancy and like you’ve got your s–t together. Michelle Bishop: Pro host for the holidays. Jack Rosen: I gotta remember to bleep that out. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh, I did that on purpose. Michlle Bishop: She gave you the ish, she said she censored herself like a rap song on FM radio. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Exactly. Jack Rosen: True. Stephanie Flynt McEben: We’re National Disability Radio, so we’ve gotta like, you know, pretend like we’re the radio. Jack Rosen: That’s true, we don’t want the FCC to fine us. Anyway, hi, everyone, Jack Rosen here. I am NDRN’s senior digital communications specialist. Michlle Bishop: mean, maybe the FCC should fine us. I feel like, just like, you know, no press is bad press, right? Stephanie Flynt McEben:  I feel like Jack says that like every single time we meet to discuss anything podcast related. Michelle Bishop That we’re gonna get fine or sued in some form? Stephanie Flynt McEben:  No, that no press is bad press. Michelle Bishop: Oh, ’cause we’re definitely eventually gonna get sued. Stephanie Flynt McEben:  Yeah. Jack Rosen: It usually is in the context of getting sued. Look, someone’s gotta sue us eventually. That’s how we make it in the industry. Michelle Bishop: Just you know, waiting, I mean, we keep trying. I keep singing songs we don’t have the rights to and everything, and just everyone keeps letting us slide. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Are we seriously advocating to get sued right now? Like I do not think our legal counsel would be for this. Jack Rosen: Look, Stephanie, if you don’t have haters, you’re doing something wrong. Stephanie Flynt McEben:  ♪ Because the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate ♪ Michelle Bishop Stephanie, you’re my favorite. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Thank you. Michelle Bishop: You know this is a sad time in my life. We’re in the post “Eras” era, and that’s just a very difficult time for me, so I appreciate you being supportive. Stephanie Flynt McEben: You mean the post “Eras”? Michelle Bishop: Exactly, Stephanie, you just get me. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I know, I know, we’re both each other’s translators. Michelle Bishop: It’s true, and it’s just, you know, a holiday season without watching grainy live streams of concerts I can’t afford to attend, it is just a very daunting prospect for me right now, so I appreciate all your love and support. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes, retweet, and also too, like if you also wanna share your love and support and solidarity with me and Michelle, feel free to send an email to podcast@ndrn.org. Michelle Bishop: That’s right, Taylor Swift. But anyway, so Stephanie, tell us about your holiday plans. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh, wow, so our- Michelle Bishop: End of the season, I guess we don’t have seasons. End of the year episode. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh my gosh, okay, is this like season two? I don’t know. Michelle Bishop: I don’t know. I don’t think we actually have seasons. This is not the most organized podcast in the universe. Stephanie Flynt McEben: This is like chitchat holiday edition, and like yeah, I mean, I like the seasons pun anyway. Michelle Bishop: Yeah. Stephanie Flynt McEben: If you get that, feel free to email podcast@ndr.org. Michelle Bishop: If you’re listening to this episode, you must really like us, ’cause we do not have any disability rights content planned. Stephanie Flynt McEben: No, no, we’re getting a little up-close and personal, except not that personal. Anyway- Michelle Bishop: So tell us about Nala’s holiday plans. I mean, your holiday plans. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh yeah, my mine I guess are kind of important, I dunno. I’m going to Texas to spend the holidays with my wife’s family, which that’ll be exciting. Actually, we’re recording this on Tuesday, December, oh my God, I’m gonna get the date wrong, 17th, so I actually fly out on Thursday, December 19th, which is super exciting. And we got matching Christmas pajamas for our dogs, because of course we did, and we also got matching human pajamas that coordinate with our dogs’ pajamas because of course we did, so that’s exciting. Michelle Bishop: So you’re getting back in touch with your southern roots for the holidays. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I am. Well, the thing is, is like, we always have to have matching pajamas. Like Nala and I have done that for a while. Hopefully we’ll get their pictures with Santa. Apparently Bailey has never had a photo with Santa Paws, so it has to be fixed, ’cause Nala gets a photo like almost every year with Santa Paws, and she’s obsessed. Michelle Bishop: Right, the scandal. I meant you were going to Texas is getting back in touch with your southern roots. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh yeah, I mean, like, I’m going to like the panhandle of Texas. Quinn, did you have something to add? I said that. My wife is making a cameo on our podcast. You’re being recorded. Michelle Bishop: We can’t hear Quinn, we just hear you yelling at Quinn. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I mean, that’s per, I mean, they were like, oh. Michelle Bishop: Ah, marriage. Stephanie Flynt McEben: ♪ Love and marriage, love and marriage ♪ ♪ Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo ♪ Stephanie Flynt McEben: Anyway. Michelle Bishop: Tell me, what’s in the panhandle of Texas? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Well, my wife just came in here, so maybe they can describe, what’s in the panhandle of Texas? Michelle Bishop: Tell us about the panhandle, Quinn. Stephanie Flynt McEben:  Quinn said nothing and then walked out. Quinn McEben: I didn’t walk out. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh, Quinn didn’t walk out, yay. Quinn McEben: Cows, oil, eggs, basically that. Michelle Bishop: Oil, there’s oil in the panhandle? Quinn McEben: Yeah, it’s big oil and cow, pig, and Bailey is also joining. Michelle Bishop: Is all the oil owned or like if me and Jack show up and we start like digging, is there a chance we could make some money here? Jack Rosen: Yeah. Quinn McEben: Well, my grandparents found some on their land when they were digging. Well actually, their cattle found some, which is like perfect for this story. Jack Rosen: So I could be a Texas oil man, because that does sound fun, and I was watching “There Will Be Blood” last night. Michelle Bishop: You give oil tycoon a little bit. Jack Rosen: I would love to be an oil tycoon. I could have the big hat. I could have the alligator leather shoes. That would be fun. Michelle Bishop: You’d have a belt buckle in the shape of Texas. Quinn McEben: When I was looking for gifts, I found this thing that you can put your cowboy hat and so you can put it on the dash of your car, and it’s like a little sucker thing, like, you know, a suction cup thing. Jack Rosen: That is so aggressively Texas, I love it. Michelle Bishop: Most Texas thing I’ve ever heard. Quinn McEben: All right, I’m gonna get out of this room. I’m sorry, guys. Stephanie Flynt McEben: No, we wanted you to make a cameo. Michelle Bishop: Now we can advertise this episode as having special guests. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes. Quinn McEben: Exactly. Stephanie Flynt McEben: See, see, there we go, thank you. Thank you, Quinn, round of, okay, anyway. Jack Rosen: I think Quinn might be one of our most frequent guests at this point. Stephanie Flynt McEben: That’s fair, I mean, honestly, like Quinn and Amy are like pretty rad guests if I do say so myself. But anyway, what are y’all doing this year for the holidays? Michelle Bishop: I feel like we just learned a lot about Jack, who wants to be, secretly wants to be a Texas oil tycoon. Jack Rosen: I mean, I’m just saying it pays a little more than working in the nonprofit world. Stephanie Flynt McEben:  Okay. Michelle Bishop: That’s fair. I’m oddly not that surprised too. Stephanie Flynt McEben: So Jack wants to be an oil tycoon for the holidays. Didn’t realize we were going back to Halloween. Michelle, what are you doing for the holidays? Michelle Bishop: Baking, guys, you know that’s my thing. We did a whole election day episode of me stress baking, so that’s my jam. I’m going to be making my famous frosted rollout sugar cookies. Christmas, I believe, is my biggest collection of cookie cutters. Well, nope, Halloween might be, but they’re rivals, it’s close, and I’m going to be making, you’ll be very interested in this, Stephanie, I will be making Taylor Swift’s recipe for chai latte sugar cookies. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Oh my God, okay, are you planning on bringi

Coming to you live tomorrow on YouTube, we’re doing a live Election Day special!   Transcript: [Heavy rock music plays in background] Coming live this Election Day. It’s the National Disability Radio live election special! Featuring Michelle Bishop, Stephanie Flynt, guide dog Nala, Jake Rosen, maybe Stephanie’s wife, Quinn if Stephanie’s working from home that day. She probably will, traffic’s bad in D.C. during the election. [Car horn sound effects] Also potentially featuring Maria Town, Claire Manning and Dewayne not the Rock Johnson. [Crowd cheering sound effects] We have not asked them yet, so we don’t know if they’ll be on the pod! Also featuring Monica Wiley. But we will not have Ken Shiotani. He will not do the podcast.  

On this episode celebrating National Disability Employment Month we have a double header! First up we interview the team managing the Financial Access, Inclusion & Resources (FAIR) Program at Disability Rights Louisiana. Members of the team include Carolyn LeBrane Tilton, MPH, MDiv, who serves as Program Manager, and Case Managers Alexander Andréson and Lauren Sanchez. They together to support returning citizens efforts to become financially stable. Then for our spotlight story we’re joined by Dr. Josie Badger, of J. Badger Consulting and Peacock Consulting, to discuss the barriers to employment for people with disabilities and how the government could do more to remove those barriers.   Learn more about the FAIR Program at https://disabilityrightsla.org/resources/financial-access-inclusion-resources-program-one-page-flyer/ Connect with Dr. Badger at https://jbadgerconsulting.org/ Watch our documentary Accessing Democracy (also available in ASL) at https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwF-vB8hlrRAzpd8D1_6rq8L5BgXzWqO3&si=zMyBeNJ1XvqhSY8o Full transcript of this episode available at https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-oct24/   TRANSCRIPT Stephanie Flynt McEben: Just stuff some nacho fries down my face. Michelle Bishop: So you just shaved what down your face? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Nacho fries. I was hungry. Michelle Bishop: Nacho fries. Stephanie Flynt McEben: The Taco Bell things except I don’t like the cheese sauce. I just like the fries and the weird seasoning on it. Michelle Bishop: That sounds like seasoned fries more than nacho fries. Jack Rosen: Yeah, I don’t know. If you say nacho fries I feel like it would have a meat to it. Stephanie Flynt McEben: No, it’s like Taco Bell cheese sauce, like ballpark Taco Bell cheese sauce, and then the french fries that have the interesting seasoning on them. Michelle Bishop: I’m saying Taco Bell come for us, but that’s not nacho fries. That’s just cheese fries. Jack Rosen: Michelle, don’t screw this up. We’re trying to get a sponsorship Michelle Bishop: From Taco Bell? Jack Rosen: Yes. Michelle Bishop: They have a specific interest in disability rights. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes, although- Jack Rosen: Well, I can think of one person with a disability who is planning to go to the Taco Bell Cantina later. Michelle Bishop: It’s you, isn’t it? Jack Rosen: It is me. I was going to get a quesadilla. And if they give us a sponsorship, I’ll say is a fantastic margarita slushy thing. Michelle Bishop: That does sound good actually. I take it back Taco Bell. Call those fries whatever you want. Back to National Disability Radio. I am Michelle Bishop, one of your fabulous hosts, Stephanie Flynt McEben: And I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben in one of your other fabulous… Oh my gosh, that was bad grammar, hosts in this. Michelle Bishop: I’m the least prepared podcast ever. We can’t say our own names now without messing up. And also, I guess, okay, look, so it’s just the two of us right now. So I’m thinking temporarily, temporarily Stephanie, temporarily. What if we called our producer Jack a temporary co-host? Stephanie Flynt McEben: A host do sir. A pro host. Michelle Bishop: Is Jackie going to talk? Jack, you’re supposed to introduce yourself at that point. Jack Rosen: I was kind of letting Stephanie riff it out there. That’s one of my skills as a producer and host is knowing when to “yes and.” Michelle Bishop: Jack can’t be a host because it’s like we passed it to him and he didn’t say anything. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I know. That makes me so sad. You were going to be the best pro host. Michelle Bishop: It was so short-lived. Jack Rosen: All right. Hi everyone. It pro host Jack Rosen here. So Michelle, we have a fantastic episode today. We’re doing a bit of a throwback in that we also did a spotlight story. So do you want to tell the people about who we have on? Michelle Bishop: First of all, look at us sticking to our original format that we don’t stick to having a spotlight story. We’re crushing it this month because this month is, wait, this is the best because this month is the National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And we are technically right now three employed people with disabilities. So brushing it. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yes. Michelle Bishop: Yes. Employment for people with Disabilities. This month we have some special guests here for you to talk all about disability employment awareness month and the work that they are doing to get and keep people with disabilities employed. Jack Rosen: Thanks Michelle. And on today’s episode we have Lauren Sanchez, Alex Andréson and Carolyn LeBrane Tilton from Disability Rights Louisiana. They run the FAIR program at the Louisiana P&A, which stands for Financial Access Inclusion and Resources Project. They help returning citizens navigate employment and resource barriers to achieving long-term financial stability. But that’s not all. We also have on Josie Badger for our spotlight story. Josie is a consultant who focuses on employment for people with disabilities. So let’s kick things off with our interview. Michelle Bishop: Yes, pro host. So the FAIR program is a program of Disability Rights Louisiana, which provides free financial coaching and case management services to formerly incarcerated individuals with disabilities helping them to achieve their employment, financial, and reentry goals. Let’s get into it. If everyone from Louisiana who joined us today, if you don’t mind introducing yourselves for our listeners. And then Carolyn, can you tell us how the FAIR program started? Carolyn LeBrane Tilton: Yes, thank you. First of all, I just want to say we are very excited about being given this opportunity to be on this show and to share with everyone what the FAIR program is all about. My name is Carolyn LeBrane Tilton. I am the program manager and I am here with two of the best bestest people in the world who love working for formerly incarcerated individuals and helping them to become all that they can be. I’m with Alexander Andréson, who is a case manager and financial coach and I’m with Lauren Sanchez, who is also a case manager and financial coach. Alexander Andréson: So I’m Alexander Andréson like Ms. Carolyn just said. I’ve been in the nonprofit and advocacy realm for the last eight years and my last year and a half has been with Disability Rights Louisiana’s FAIR program. I’m the only member of my immediate family who’s not been directly involved with the criminal justice system. And in my early childhood, I watched my grandfather reenter with disabilities after decades behind bars, witnessing his struggle with reentry firsthand fuels my passion for our target population. I wish he would’ve had access to a program like this. Lauren Sanchez: And I am Lauren Sanchez, also a case manager. I’ve been in and out of the criminal justice system for a little over a decade and dealt with my own disabilities for longer than that. So my journey led me here and this position spoke to me in just wanting to give back and let people know that life can get better. Carolyn LeBrane Tilton: Now the question that was asked is how did we get started, right? Michelle Bishop: Absolutely. Tell us all about it. Carolyn LeBrane Tilton: Well, Louisiana has long been known as the incarceration capital of the world, and of course that’s a title that really needs to change. For years we’ve been representing people with disabilities. When I say we, I mean Disability Rights Louisiana. We’ve been representing people who were being abused and neglected inside of our prisons. And so in 2017, our governor signed a package of bills into law that was aimed at significantly reducing the state’s prison population. Now this may sound like great news and it was, but people were coming out of prison and when I say we, I mean Disability Rights Louisiana couldn’t find any disability focused reentry program that we could refer our clients to once they were released. Carolyn LeBrane Tilton: We knew that clients with disabilities would need very holistic services to help them rebuild their lives. And so we decided to build our own. So in 2018 when we started building the FAIR program a foundation, the Kessler Foundation actually presented us with a funding opportunity and we saw that as a chance to create the program and bring it to our community. Their support was instrumental. And so that’s how we started. We started as a pilot program in 2018 and we’re now five years old. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah no, thank you so much for that information. I know that you briefly touched a little bit on this, but could you speak a little bit more to why FAIR’s strategic focus has been specifically on employment? Carolyn LeBrane Tilton: Yes. And this is really a very unique approach, but when we looked at the data, and we did a lot of research on this, we saw that unemployment and poverty were some of the strongest predictors of incarceration and recidivism. And we also realized that those issues disproportionately impacted people with disabilities. So DRLA already had a lot of experience in helping people with disabilities address employment barriers and at the same time address their financial concerns as it related to balancing their disability benefits. Carolyn LeBrane Tilton: So it just seemed like a good place to start and to bring those two together. We also saw it as an opportunity to address the gaps in other employment programming. So what happens is that in our work we see repeatedly that there’s so many issues unrelated to the actual jobs that we’re making it hard for our clients. And I’m talking now issues like stable housing, transportation, healthcare, and of course financial matters. So we decided that what we would do is really we wanted to be a very holistic approach, and so we wanted our program to use case management strategies to support the job seekers, but also to bring in the whole financial literacy and financial coaching piece. Jack Rosen: So I’m wonderin

Things are a bit upside down on this episode. Our producer, Jack Rosen, is one of the guests this time, so David Card is a guest host (he’s guesting as a host, Jack is guesting as a guest). They are joined by Monica Wiley (also a guest) and Michelle Bishop (still a host) to discuss “Accessing Democracy” a documentary short directed by Jack and staring Monica focused on voters with disabilities. The documentary was produced by NDRN and created in partnership with Disability Rights New York. Register for the world premiere of Accessing Democracy: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZAuc-ugqzksGNBHggVvDOiyio-S29EWgca5#/registration Full transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-sep24/   Michelle Bishop: I’m so sorry you didn’t get that part. Jack Rosen: I wish I did, but I mean, David Hutt would’ve made us censored anyway, so it’s fine and let’s just move on. Jack Rosen: We’re doing things very backwards this time, which is why I’m kicking us off. I’m actually the guest this week along with Monica. Michelle is the only permanent host present, and David Card is subbing in as a guest host because I don’t think I can interview myself, though if we do some more experimental podcasts in the future, maybe that’s something we’ll explore. With that, I guess I will throw it back to Michelle since I’m a guest and I’m not supposed to be doing the intro. Michelle Bishop: The only thing I heard in all of that is that Jack is not a host on the podcast. Jack Rosen: Damn it. Michelle Bishop: Victory is mine. All right, so this month we’re actually going to be talking about Accessing Democracy, a brand new short documentary that if NDRN does say so ourselves, is amazing and groundbreaking and about to change the world to make you cry all at the same time. With that said, our guests, would you like to introduce yourselves? David Card: Hi everyone. I’m David Card. I’m NDRN’s Deputy Executive Director for External Relations, which means I oversee our communications department. I am super excited to be a co-host today. I’ve been secretly very jealous of everybody who gets to be part of the podcast, so I feel like I’m the weekend host on the Today Show, who gets to fill in for one of the regular hosts during the week. This is really exciting for me. Monica Wiley: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here today. I am Monica Wiley, the Voter Engagement Specialist at the National Disability Rights Network in the voter department. I had the great pleasure of working on this project with Mr. Jack Rosen as we interviewed quite a few of amazing voters from our community. This project was something that was very, very important, very much needed, and also had some fun moments at times, but definitely a pleasure to be here and to talk about this today. Jack Rosen: I am Jack Rosen. Normally I am the producer and a co-host of National Disability Radio, but today I’m here as a guest. I served as director of Accessing Democracy. It was really a privilege to get to work on this project, and I’m glad that NDRN was willing to take the chance on a first-time filmmaker and invest in me and Monica going across the country to interview voters with disabilities. David Card: Could you tell us a little bit more about this project and what its message is? Jack Rosen: It’s a documentary short focused on voters in our community and the power of our votes and the issues that we wish those seeking office were addressing. Close to a year ago, we were trying to come up with ways to get our community excited about the upcoming presidential election. Marlene Sallo, our executive director, half-jokingly, suggested that we do a buddy comedy of me and Monica going around the country, interviewing the candidates running for president. We at first decided to actually pursue that. We reached out to all of the people running to be the next commander-in-chief. Jack Rosen: The truth of the matter is, we did not hear back from a single one. What we decided to do was instead focus more on the voters in our community because the voters in our community are rarely heard. We occasionally get a few news articles every cycle about these voters with disabilities went to their polling place and found out it was inaccessible or their absentee ballots were never sent out. We always hear about the barriers impacting people in our community, but we don’t hear what voters in our community want. We don’t have the media asking us, and we very rarely have those running for office actually take the time to develop a detailed disability platform. I mean, it’s so rare that our issues get addressed that it was newsworthy when a single question was asked about disability during the 2020 primary. Jack Rosen: We wanted to give folks in our community, in the disability community, a chance to say what they want, what their lives are like, what kind of barriers they encounter that could be given political solutions. While I don’t know if the next commander-in-chief can solve ableism at a societal level, they absolutely could make it easier for people with disabilities to get jobs, to have access to accessible and affordable housing, to have access to healthcare and to the service providers they need. We interviewed about a half dozen people across our community about just that, about what they want and what they need from the next commander-in-chief. Michelle Bishop: Monica, could you talk a little bit about what it was like working on this project? Monica Wiley: Absolutely, Michelle, and thank you for the question. Working on this project from a personal, I’ll speak for it from a personal and professional perspective. From a personal perspective, as a person with a disability that has been very involved in voter engagement work in the cross-disability community, it was very eye-opening in certain ways in terms of others with different types of disabilities that their disability has impacted their ability to be confident and wanting to do their civic duty, which is voting, helping to promote voting for our community. Just how society just uses our disability against us as someone or as individuals, that don’t know what we want from our leaders or that we’re not capable of being able to vote, of having the ability to exercise our voice, whether it be in voting or whether it be in advocacy. Monica Wiley: To hear firsthand in a one-on-one discussion, I called it a conversation, was what I called it when I was interviewing the different voters, people in the cross-disability community, because that’s what we were having, we were having a conversation about these challenges, about what we want to see from the next commander-in-chief, and furthermore, what we want to see from our elected officials period. Monica Wiley: The next commander-in-chief is going to need these leaders to be in support of the work that needs to take place in our community, the policies, the laws that need to be for the betterment of our community. If we don’t have elected officials on the local level and state level to work closely with the next commander-in-chief, then we would continue to have these roadblocks. Being able to speak with individuals up and down the East Coast about their needs, about the challenges that they have faced, especially some of those who were first-time voters when they voted in the last election and are looking forward to voting again in this election. The feeling that I experienced when hearing these individuals talk about their level of excitement for wanting to be involved in voting, it was just simply amazing, Michelle. Monica Wiley: I would highly encourage the media and others to really pay attention to what, because we do know what we want to see for the next commander-in-chief. We do know what we expect from these leaders. We are very, very aware of what we’re voting for, what to take place, and making sure that we have the accommodations to be able to vote. I hope that answers your question, Michelle Bishop: Ew, David, if you want to be a co-host, you have to ask a question. Failing. David Card: Sorry, I was muted. Monica Wiley: I was like, “Is David supposed to go?” Michelle Bishop: He is. He is and he just ghosted us. David Card: I know. I’m sorry. This is my first time. Michelle Bishop: Excuses. David Card: Okay. Monica, what did you learn about voters in our community? Was there anything that surprised you as you talked to voters? Monica Wiley: Actually, there was. There was some things that surprised me from voters. One was, and I know that we are in the process of trying to expand technology and making sure that we have better access digitally, but I was surprised at how there are voters who are deaf and blind still encounter some of these challenges even when the HAVA Act says that you should have at least one voting machine that is accessible. As a person who’s not deaf and blind, but is a person that has a physical disability, I couldn’t necessarily connect with that challenge because that wasn’t my challenge. I would have thought that we would have done better with this, especially since I’ve been involved in organizing around voting and voting access for quite some time. Monica Wiley: To still hear and witness from these individuals that we have spoken to about their lack of access to the voter ballot, was still pretty interesting. I would say that was probably, for me, the biggest thing that I learned in terms of access. We talk about everyone having the right to vote and having access to the voter ballot, but then yet there’s still these various challenges as it pertains to a particular group within the cross-disability community. I was pretty perturbed by that piece. Monica Wiley: I am trying to think, because there were so many great individuals that we spoke with that had different types of disabilities. I would just say, David, that when you look at this short film, this short documentary, you will definitely see a reflection of the cross-disability community

Paralympic medalist and World Games record holder Sandy Hanebrink joins us to talk about her journey from St. Louis to the 1996 games in Atlanta. We discuss how the treatment of Paralympic athletes has progressed and where more investment needs to be made in athletes with disabilities.   You can find Sandy at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandy-hanebrink-otr-l-24432029 To find out more about the Carvan for Disability Justice and Freedom: https://thedisabilitycaravan.com   Full transcript available at: Michelle Bishop: Oh, God. Okay. Are we ready, Jack? Jack Rosen: Ready as we’ll ever be. Michelle Bishop: Oh, that’s scary and not at all comforting. *Laughs* Okay, give me a sec. Jack Rosen: Today we’re sitting down with Sandy Hanebrink, who is executive director of Touch the Future. She’s a occupational therapist and has worked with the Neuro-Abilities Advisory Committee for the United Nations G3ict, which is under the Convention for the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. She’s an accessibility expert and she is also a Paralympian. Jack Rosen: Sandy, do you want to introduce yourself? Sandy Hanebrink: Hey, it’s great to be here with you guys. I think you pretty much covered it, Jack. I am Sandy Hanebrink, I am all those things he said, and I’m just happy to be here with you guys today. Michelle Bishop: Sandy, thank you so much. We’re excited to have you here. Actually, you have such an amazing list of credentials I’ve now thought of like five different podcast episodes we could interview you for on different topics, but this one is actually our Olympic special, so I was wondering if you could start by telling us a little bit about your history with the Paralympics and how you got involved. Sandy Hanebrink: So actually I got involved back in the glory days in the ’80s when rehab was kind of exploding and custom equipment and things were exploding. And I was a patient at St. Mary’s Rehab in St. Louis and was introduced to an adaptive sports program at the Jewish Community Center Association. It was an adaptive fitness program that had racquetball and whatever type that, and that was my first introduction to some of the guys who were doing disabled sports. So I learned about wheelchair basketball and wheelchair tennis and racquetball during my time in that program and started competing with the local wheelchair sports program in St. Louis, as well as playing tennis. And so I got introduced because I was invited to be part of a development team for Team USA to the Pan American Games in Venezuela. And so we competed in Venezuela as part of the Team USA and got a gold medal in wheelchair basketball. The next year I played in the U.S. Open in the Quad A division for wheelchair tennis, and I beat the guys. So I kind of caught the tennis bug. And then I started learning more about different sports and competing in different events and trying different wheelchair sports events because St. Mary’s sponsored many wheelchair sports teams. So they had people doing road races and track and field, and they had a wheelchair softball team, of course wheelchair basketball, and then tennis. Sandy Hanebrink: So that’s where I got my start. And then after I went to occupational therapy school, I actually moved to South Carolina where my parents were. And part of what I did while I was going to school was start a wheelchair sports program and get involved with the regional wheelchair games, the state games that were happening, which was then called the Southeastern Wheelchair Games. And that’s when I started trying different sports and did field events and competed in swimming. I went on to win the National Wheelchair Athletic Association is what it was called at the time, the female athlete of the year. Got invited out to Paralympic training camps, which at that time swimming and field were out at Sacramento State where they were doing just at the infancy… Rory Cooper, who’s at University of Pittsburgh, had just started the research into elite athleticism for Paralympians. And so part of those training camps, we were part of some of the initial studies on what form and technique and endurance and oxygen capacity of people with paralysis and different disabilities and things like that and how it impacted things. So kind of in the infancy of what is now what I call the modern Paralympics. Sandy Hanebrink: And then I competed in the World Games for swimming and field events and got silver medal at swimming in Worlds, continued to compete at national level. I actually still have the national records for shot put discus and javelin, and a couple of swimming events which will be forever because nationally we used to do yards and not meters, and now all Paralympic events are meters in the U.S. as well, so those will never go away. So that’s pretty exciting. And then because of my qualifying in attending the Paralympic sports camps, I made Team USA, competed in the trials, and then actually made the team for Atlanta Paralympics in ’96 for both field and swimming. But unfortunately when they restructured the games, they didn’t have all the classifications and they combined like I’m an incomplete quadriplegic, so my class was… All the quadriplegic females were lumped together with two different classes of paraplegics. So I could have done prelims, but there was no way I was going to make it to finals competing against people two classes ahead of me. So I competed in swimming and got a bronze medal at the Atlanta Paralympic Games, and then continued to compete for a while until that life thing called work happened and then started working. And then I did more with coaching, youth development programs, and wheelchair sports programs, and hosting events. Michelle Bishop: Sandy, first and most importantly, you’re from St. Louis? Because I’m from St. Louis, and I see now why our producer Jack did not mention that to me before we started filming this episode so that I didn’t spend the entire episode talking to you about toasted ravioli, which is- Sandy Hanebrink: Exactly Michelle Bishop: Right? Sandy Hanebrink: St. Louis pizza and toasted rav. You got to have it. Michelle Bishop: Right? We could do a whole episode on that. We should. We should do a St. Louis episode. We can go, we can record there live, and we’ll do it from an Imo’s. But sorry, all that aside, I mean congratulations. Your career sounds amazing and I can’t believe you’re an actual Olympic medalist. Like that blows my mind, and thank you just for representing our country at the Paralympics. Sorry, the Olympics make me really patriotic in a way that usually only elections can. But that’s an incredible story, just thank you for joining us. And I think Jack had another question for you. Jack Rosen: Sandy, so before we started this interview you were also talking about some of the challenges you faced when you were involved in the Paralympics, that they didn’t really invest in their athletes at the time. Do you want to talk about that a little and how things have changed? Sandy Hanebrink: Yeah, I think it’s kind of the evolution of disabled sports and Paralympic sport was back in the ’80s when you started seeing more and more countries participating in the Paralympics. You saw the rehab centers as another way to improve the quality of life of people with disabilities, sponsoring adaptive sports programs and Paralympic competitive teams. You saw leagues and stuff spreading across the country. But as an individual who’s competing back then, you were on your own to fundraise for all your equipment and training and that unless you happen to be part of one of these few wheelchair sports programs that existed out there, and they maybe had some team chairs. Or like some of my first equipment, my throwing chair actually, we made, I had a tool and die shop in town make for me. Sandy Hanebrink: And a lot of the equipment was evolving from where wheelchairs were now custom for every day. My first wheelchair when I first became paralyzed was an ENJ folding chair. And then by getting involved in the adaptive sports program that I talked about, I was introduced to custom chairs and sports chairs. And back then our everyday chair was also our basketball chair. Very few people had a piece of equipment for different sports, other than racing. That’s when the Eagle Sports Chairs had evolved with, at that time was still four wheel racing chairs, and just starting with the three wheel racing chairs that were much shorter and not as aerodynamic and not as much technology into it and innovations and engineering that we see today where BMW even makes custom molded wheelchairs for our Paralympic racers and stuff. But in the beginning you funded yourself, so sometimes the best athletes didn’t go, but the athletes who could fundraise or had a program backing them got to go. Sandy Hanebrink: When you made a national team, it’s much like Paralympics now and the Olympics where the national team coach and support staff are named. But like in gymnastics we were talking about earlier, you’ll see there’s the head coach but then you see the other coaches for the athletes are there. The athletes don’t have to just listen to the head coach that doesn’t really know them and things like that. Well when I went to Worlds with swimming, I didn’t know the coach or the team leaders and so they would make tips and stuff, but you’re kind of on your own to do your training and be prepared because you didn’t train with… The teams were named and you left, you didn’t have time to practice together and train like they do now. You had a couple weeks kind of thing. And again, it was like you had to fundraise. So I would hold fundraising events and sell t-shirts and do things like that to raise the money to be able to go to competitions and then to go to the Paralympics and that you had to buy your own uniforms and everything. There was fees and stuff, and you actually contributed to support the coaches and team leaders that you didn’t kno

Amy Scherer joins us for her fourth appearance on the pod to discuss her work covering the US Olympic Gymnastics trials, and the accessibility challenges she’s faced both at the events themselves and while traveling for them. Check out Amy’s coverage at: https://www.intlgymnast.com/ Full transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-july24/ Stephanie Flynt: Do I just start? Jack Rosen: Yeah. Stephanie Flynt: Yeah. Well, we’ve got to be up. Hold on, well. Aghhhhhhh. I almost fell over Nala. *Intro Music Plays* Jack Rosen: All right. Well, our podcast team has been decimated by meetings and migraines and everything else. So it’s just me and Raquel here to kick us off today. Guess what, Michelle? I’m doing the intro this time. So I guess I am a host. Raquel, do you want to tell the folks who we have on today? Raquel Rosa: Thanks, Jack. Today we are going to be joined by Amy Scherer, one of NDRN’s dynamite attorneys. She focuses on supporting the CAP program, or the client assistance program. She’s going to be talking to us today about a recent trip she took to Minneapolis where she was fortunate enough to see the gymnastics Olympic trials. Take it away, Amy. Amy Scherer: Wow. Raquel, thanks for such a kind introduction and I’m really glad to be on here today to talk a little bit about my experience. As Raquel said, my day job is as a staff attorney at NDRN, focusing on CAP, or client assistance program, VR related employment issues. And I just happen to have a little side job that is also quite fun and I feel lucky to be able to do it. Maybe something that not everybody gets to do every day, but I essentially work as a freelance writer for International Gymnast Media. It used to be International Gymnastics Magazine, but as many things have happened over the last couple of years through the pandemic and everything, it’s now essentially a website, but it is the main media that covers international gymnastics, and it’s been around since 1956. So it’s really great to be able to be a part of that organization. And the gentleman that runs the website and was a publisher of the magazine, I actually had a chance to meet him when I was 10 years old and just started getting involved in the sport and really fell in love with the 1984 Olympics when Mary Lou Retton won for the United States and also the men’s team for the US won the gold medal there. So that was sort of my introduction to the sport, and I was able to meet Paul Ziert, the publisher, and that’s where our relationship began, which led to my ability to work there many years later. I never thought as a child that literally 40 years later I’d be working for that organization, but it all worked out that way. And the job, it’s interesting because I don’t think it’s that common even in 2024 for members of the press to be wheelchair users or to have visible physical disabilities. So my primary job with International Gymnast is to cover the NCAA season, which is separate than the Olympic season. These are individuals obviously who are in college, have scholarships, and there’s an entire NCAA season just like there would be for football or basketball. And I typically write a column during the season each week and then get a chance to go to attend the NCAA national championship at the end of the year. So that’s a live event, and involves going to the competition and writing about it while it’s happening, so similar to live chat, and then also going to press conferences after that. So when I first started doing this, which was probably back in 2016 when I started to do the formal coverage of NCAA, they didn’t even have a place for a person in wheelchair to sit in the press section. There were actually five steps up there to even get to the platform where the media was sitting. And so here I just sat in another section and was not able to be with everyone else who was reporting on the competition. But actually, and I have to give credit to my friend Jessica Obern, who was there, and she was even more incensed than I was about what had happened. And she wrote a scathing letter to the head of the media for NCAA gymnastics and just said it was inappropriate and that it needed to be set up differently in order for me to be able to participate. And lo and behold, they did respond to that very well. The next year there was actually a section on the press application that said, “Do you need wheelchair seating? Check this box.” And they really worked with me from that point on to try to make sure that I had a good place to sit and that I could see well and reach the table and reach the laptop and everything that was involved in reporting on that competition. So it went well for a number of years. I have to say last year there was a change in the leadership so I wasn’t working with the same person. And even though there were many, many emails exchanged in the months prior to this year’s competition in terms of what I needed in order to be able to see and to be able to reach the table and everything, I got there and the table was about 15 feet tall and I was not able to see over the row of people in front of me. So obviously that was a major issue, and it became a pretty significant thing because we found out about it just a couple hours before the competition. So we were trying to figure out what to do, and I was pretty frustrated because it’s not like this was a surprise. There were lots of conversations about it. The guy who was just in charge did not seemingly have the power to make the changes that needed to be made, and they were extremely apologetic, but obviously that didn’t really impact me to do my job and to do what I needed to do. So after some chaos and people running around, we were able to find a place for me where I could see the competition and do what I needed to do in terms of my job responsibilities. I do have to say that once I said that I was a staff attorney at the National Disability Rights Network and that I had knowledge about the ADA, that definitely got things moving a bit more. So tip to anyone listening, if you can drop that into a situation like this pretty quickly, that does tend to wake people up. But that’s the situation in terms of doing the job with the press. I’ve just also been extremely happy, though, with the organization that I work with, International Gymnast Media. They never thought it was a big deal that I use a wheelchair, had never done gymnastics in my life, couldn’t tell you how to do a back handspring from a technical standpoint at all. But they just appreciated I guess my passion for the sport and my desire to learn more. And I was excited to be able to find a way to use the knowledge that I had in a productive way and to be able to put it to use. Rather than just sitting at home and watching videos on TV, what could I actually do that might contribute to the sport? And they just totally embraced that. And again, this is starting back in the early nineties, so not something that was necessarily typical. Never really had any specific discussions with them about accommodations or anything specifically related to my disability. We just made it work. And I think it was a good example, too, of for a while there, most of the interaction I had was through email or through the phone, but then when we started to be able to meet at different competitions, spend more time together, have meals together, I think they got a better view of what my disability was and that there were more things to be considered beyond just the fact that I use a wheelchair. My motor coordination is also somewhat limited, and so that affects typing, which was part of the job that I was doing. But again, as I got to know them better, that just all kind of happened naturally and it was never a big deal to figure out how to make it work. So I just think that’s a great example because sometimes people think when you request accommodations it has to be this really formal, adversarial thing, and sometimes that is needed, but other times, especially when it’s just more of a side job like this, it just happened more naturally as I got to know them and we just figured out what was going to work best for me. So I think that’s probably the end of the job part of the discussion. Did anybody have, so the second part would be, again, the most recent trip, as Raquel mentioned, to the Olympic trials for gymnastics in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I am not able to travel independently, so I was lucky enough to bring along Raquel, who was travel assistant extraordinaire. And we had never traveled together so I think it was a learning experience in a lot of ways for both of us, but it also just showed that things don’t always go as smoothly as you hope they’re going to. One thing is I use a power chair most of the time in my day-to-day life and then [inaudible 00:10:20], but I have never taken a power chair on an airplane for a trip because there’s just so many variables there. And if one thing gets broken, then you get to the other end to start your trip when you land and you don’t have a working mobility device. So it does definitely make it easier or less likely for a chair to be broken if you have a manual chair, especially if you take all the pieces off of the chair, which is what I would recommend. So I’m assuming most people listening to this probably know this already, but you would want to take off the back cushions, the seat cushions, the footrest, basically anything that is detachable from the chair, I recommend that you take off and hopefully are able to put that into the overhead compartment for the plane. That doesn’t guarantee that nothing’s going to get broken, because I did have a trip last year where all that was done and they broke the brakes on the chair, which might seem like a minor issue, but it really wasn’t minor in any way, shape, or form because since I couldn’t put the brakes on to keep the chair from moving, I couldn’t do a transfer independently

A summer heat wave can’t stop our intrepid podcasters. In this episode, the gang (well Michelle and Jack) goes abroad! From Brussels, Michelle interviews Alejandro Moledo, the Deputy Director and Head of Policy of the European Disability Forum. Then, Jack conducts our spotlight interview from a hotel lobby in Spain, where he speaks with Mercedes Lopez Miranda about her experiences being a person with a disability in Europe. To learn more about the work the European Disability Forum does visit https://www.edf-feph.org/ To view the full transcript for this episode visit https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-june24/   Stephanie Flynt: What’s your cold open going to be about? Michelle Bishop: It’s probably going to be that now. Jack Rosen: Probably that. I don’t know. I’m tired. Michelle Bishop: Jack, I’ve never seen you so full of life and vivacious. Jack Rosen: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s too hot out to podcast. Michelle Bishop: Too hot to pod? Hey, hey, welcome back to National Disability Radio. It is a little bit hot in D.C. right now and we are all a little bit blah, but I am one of your hosts, Michelle Bishop, the voter access and engagement manager at NDRN. Stephanie Flynt: And I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben, public policy analyst at NDRN, and please send coffee gift cards if you feel so inclined. You’ve got our little electronic email address. Okay, thanks. Raquel Rosa: And this is Raquel Rosa, your community relations specialist at NDRN and your final third of podcast hostesses. Michelle Bishop: Hey, Stephanie is fueled entirely by coffees. You know how most people are 75% water or whatever? Stephanie is 75% iced coffee. Stephanie Flynt: I am, yes. And I almost hate to say this because if people find out there might be a supply shortage, but they sell iced coffee in cartons and I was last summer years old when I found that out and it’s been life-changing. Michelle Bishop: You drink cartons of coffee? Stephanie Flynt: They have iced coffee cartons, like half gallons. Michelle Bishop: You’re telling me you drink a half gallon of coffee on a daily basis? Stephanie Flynt: Not a daily basis. Michelle Bishop: That’s a little scary. Stephanie Flynt: Not on a daily basis. Michelle Bishop: Speaking of people who are energized and ready to go, where is our producer at? Jack Rosen: Oh, I was sending an email asking them to turn up the AC. Hi, producer Jack Rosen here. That’s all I got. I’m genuinely miserable right now. Michelle Bishop: This is an enthusiastic episode we have for you all. Stephanie Flynt: Very enthusiastic. Jack Rosen: Yes. To be clear, I’m miserable about the heat, but I’m excited for our guests on today’s episode. Michelle, you want to tell the people who we have on? Michelle Bishop: So I recently had the honor of traveling to Brussels, the home of the European Union, to bring you our very first international episode. We don’t have applause, so now we have to start doing it ourselves. I actually got to visit the European Disability Forum, or EDF. They’re an umbrella organization of persons with disabilities that defend the interest of over 100 million people with disabilities in Europe. As an independent nongovernmental organization that brings together representative organizations of persons with disabilities from across Europe, they’re run by people with disabilities and their families and they’re proud to be a strong united voice of persons with disabilities in Europe. EDF envisions a Europe where persons with disabilities are fully included in society on an equal basis with others. Does that sound familiar? They work to ensure full inclusion in society of persons with disabilities and access to their human rights through active involvement in policy development and implementation and monitoring of the UN Convention on the rights of persons with disabilities in Europe. Stephanie Flynt: That’s cool. Oh my goodness. Excited about the interview coming up next that you’re conducting, Michelle. Is that correct? Michelle Bishop: Are you all jealous? Are you so jealous? Stephanie Flynt: I am jealous, yes. I’ve never been abroad before, so I’m definitely jealous. Michelle Bishop: Whoa. We’re going to have to do a second international episode and take Stephanie abroad. Stephanie Flynt: Yes. Michelle Bishop: I’m in favor. Also, you should be jealous. It was in Brussels, the waffles alone and the fries were worth it. Stephanie Flynt: Oh my gosh. Now I want french fries. Thanks. Michelle Bishop: I went over to EDF’s offices and I got to meet with Alejandro Moledo, who’s the deputy director and head of policy. Alejandro leads and coordinates EDF’s advocacy and policy work at the EU level and supports the work of the European Parliament Disability Intergroup. Among other areas, Alejandro has developed policy positions and recommendations regarding political participation of persons with disabilities, accessible information and communication technologies, assistive technologies, and different standardization activities. He previously worked as a communication officer within the Parliament of the Valencia region as a journalist in digital media and a communication agency in Andorra and in a public affairs company in Madrid. He actually has an MA in political and corporate communication from the University of Navarra, Spain and George Washington University, and a BA in journalism from the University of Valencia with a year actually at York University in Canada. And I will warn you guys in advance that Alejandro and I had started having a really broad conversation about disability rights in US and in Europe, but they’re having elections coming up too and as soon as we got into elections, it got election geeky real fast. Stephanie Flynt: I’m here for it. Michelle Bishop: Alejandro, thank you so much for sitting down with me today. I just got into Brussels this morning, but I was so excited to sit down and have this conversation with you. Most of our listeners are American. They know a lot about disability rights in the states, but I don’t know if they know that much about the European Disability Forum, and I was wondering if you could start off by just telling us a little bit, a bit about that and what you do. Alejandro Moledo: Sure, thank you. Thank you so much for having me in your podcast. So the European Disability Forum is an organization that brings together the European disability movement. We are an umbrella organization and our members are those European NGOs that represent different disability groups such as the European Blind Union, the European Union of the Deaf, Autism Europe, Inclusion Europe, people with intellectual disabilities, and also those organizations at national level that represent the disability community. And we work very closely with the European Union institutions, as we are an advocacy organization that promotes the rights of persons with disabilities, and we do so by involving all our members in the policy-making and trying to influence the laws that are being adopted at EU level. And on top of that, we obviously work with our members in building the capacity of the movement and promoting the rights of persons with disabilities. So that would be more or less we do. Michelle Bishop: So we’re actually not that different. I’m with the National Disability Rights Network in the States and we are a national membership association, so I’m based in D.C. but our member organizations, the disability rights organizations are in every US state and territory, and we’re sort of their association that supports the work that they do and we work on policy at the national level. So we’re actually not that different. In the United States, we rely so much on the Americans with Disabilities Act. For the rights of people with disabilities, to protect their rights, it’s such a big landmark piece of civil rights legislation. There’s so much stuff in it, good stuff. There’s architectural access stuff, that places of public accommodation have to be accessible, but it’s also got non-discrimination and employment and access to programs and all those sorts of things. I’m wondering what that looks like in Europe. How are the rights of people with disabilities protected? Alejandro Moledo: Well, in Europe, finally we have the UN Convention on the rights of persons with disabilities ratified by all member states, and not only by all member states, but also by the European Union as a supranational organization. So this kind of universal ratification of the convention for us has been really a driving force for disability rights. And the thing is that, and you know very well, the convention was very much inspired by the Americans Disabilities Act and also from Europe, we also look at your good practices and good legislation also as a food for thought or inspiration for campaigns and advocacy that we do here in Europe. But when it comes to specific policies, which I guess is similar to within the US, but it’s complicated because we have the EU as having certain competencies in which the EU basically is the ruler, such as, for example, internal market. We have a single market in the EU and therefore, for example, laws concerning accessibility can be introduced and have been introduced by the European Union, transport services as well. But then when it comes to other areas such as let’s say employment policies, education, in this case the member state has the competence and the EU has a supportive kind of role. And in this supportive role, obviously we also have certain room for improvements and ideas that can guarantee that member state exchange these good practices and can advance on the rights of persons with disabilities in different areas. So we work with this kind of complex policy system, but with the idea that every right that we have been achieving at EU level will come even if it will take time at national level, regional level, and local level in the coming years. EDF was created in 1996, and in 1997 the Amsterdam Treat

In this (mini?) episode the gang interviews Stephanie’s wife Quinn McEben about their work as a mental health care nurse, and how mental healthcare can better serve the disability community. Also we talk a lot about their wedding. Full transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-may24/ Jack Rosen: Can we talk for a minute about how we got on some sort of press release mailing list, and now people keep pitching us on podcast ideas? Michelle Bishop: I mean I just think that means we’re winning. Jack Rosen: If you are the person who put us on that mailing list, please reach out to me. I don’t mind. I’m not upset by it. I just want to know how this happened. Michelle Bishop: And I would just like to tell that person, thank you for your confidence in our podcast. Our listener, my mom, is very excited. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Wait, did your mom put us on those press lists? Michelle Bishop: You know what? If she did, that would be hilarious. And I would have to say well-played mom. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Because they are identifying you, specifically. The rest of us are nobodies. You are [inaudible] Michelle Bishop: Not only is my mom our only listener, but she’s trolling me through our podcast. I don’t think that’s true. But if it is, diabolical and I respect it, so what can I say? Stephanie Flynt McEben: I like it. Michelle Bishop: Jack, should we actually start the episode? [music] Welcome back everyone to National Disability Radio. We are so excited to have you back this lovely, gorgeous May. Spring is here. I am Michelle Bishop. I am one-third of your podcast hosting team. Stephanie Flynt McEben: And I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben, another member of our podcast hosting team. We got in trouble for the one-thirds last time, so I think I’m, is it the one-fourths? Michelle Bishop: It’s the one-thirds. I’m still enforcing this. Wait, we’re going to give that name change in a second. Stephanie slipped a little name change in there. So that is two-thirds of your amazing hosting team and our final host, Raquel Rosa will join us later in the episode for the interview. And then of course, as always, our trusty producer. Jack Rosen: Thanks, Michelle! That one was actually pretty nice. I appreciate it. Michelle Bishop: I want to stress that Jack and I don’t actually hate each other. We just can’t let this go. [laughter] Stephanie Flynt McEben: Let it go, let it go [inaudible] Michelle Bishop: Oh, wait. Do we have the rights to Let It Go? Jack Rosen: You can only sing like three seconds of that before we get sued. Michelle Bishop: Yeah. Disney, don’t make Disney come for us. Jack Rosen: Yes, that goes against my, we can handle any lawsuit rule. Not Disney. Michelle Bishop: Not Disney. Jack Rosen: That’s with the mouse. Michelle Bishop: No Disney. No. We’ll lose that. Stephanie Flynt McEben: Release the mouse. Michelle Bishop: So to redirect you from your beautiful vocal styling, Stephanie, tell us about this month’s episode. Stephanie Flynt McEben: So yeah, my wife is going to actually be our featured speaker on this month’s episode. As many may be aware, May is a Mental Health Awareness Month. And so we are going to be talking about individuals with mental health, disabilities and diagnoses when it comes to getting the care that they need and advocating for the care that they need. So super excited about this and this episode, it’ll be great. And I may or may not be a little biased, but– Michelle Bishop: Towards your own wife? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, kind of. Michelle Bishop: I mean, I would expect that, but also before we get into interview, congratulations Stephanie on having a wifey! Stephanie Flynt McEben: Thank you! Nala was a flower dog. Michelle Bishop: Stop. Stephanie Flynt McEben: She was included. Michelle Bishop: Oh, my heart can’t handle that. We’re going to have to see pics. Stephanie Flynt McEben: I was going to say there’s definitely pictures. Michelle Bishop: After we finish this episode everyone has to stay on it. We have to see pictures of Nala, the service dog being in the wedding. But congrats on your wedding and that’s why Stephanie had a sneaky little name change that she put in there with her new last name. And let’s jump to the interview. Jack Rosen: But wait, wait, wait. But before we do that, Stephanie, do you want to tell us who your wife is and why she’s on the show? Stephanie Flynt McEben: Yeah, so my wife, Quinn McEben is a mental health care nurse who works with clients who have varying mental health disabilities and varying mental health diagnoses. And so she works with them regarding their general health, their mental health, working with them on advocating for the services and supports that they need in particular in the healthcare space. So they do some really good work and super excited to hear about their perspective regarding this space. It’s going to be great! Michelle Bishop: Thank you for agreeing to be on this month’s episode. So I guess we’ll just kind of get right into it. So as individuals who live with disabilities ourselves, I know that we know firsthand some of the trauma that we’ve experienced related to our disability. And so we would love to get a provider’s perspective on different experiences that you’ve kind of worked with, with individuals and how providers and just individuals who are advocates for individuals with disabilities. Just how can folks be supportive and what has your experience with this been during your career as a mental health care nurse? Quinn McEben: Yeah, so I can kind of talk about some good things and bad things. So like you mentioned, I am a psychiatric nurse. I manage a lot of physical healthcare for a caseload with people with severe and persistent mental illness. And so I see both of it and both the physical health and the mental health disabilities. And I will say from nursing school on, we weren’t ever, of course we covered psychiatric care, but as far as physical health disabilities, people with blindness or hearing impaired or deafness in wheelchairs, we never talked about any of that or how to address that in a different way. And so one of the biggest things I see with my particular clients is that it’s just what I would call medical trauma, which I would just describe as providers not being great. And whether that’s one of the things I see a lot is they come to the doctor for a physical health reason, say it’s chronic pain, say it’s diabetes, say it’s high blood pressure while they see their other meds and they see that they’re also diagnosed with schizophrenia, they’re also diagnosed with depression. And suddenly that chronic pain is all related to the depression.Suddenly that diabetes doesn’t matter and we shouldn’t treat it because it’s just from the meds for schizophrenia. And so people focus in on the mental health side of it and is the somatic providers don’t necessarily focus in on other things. And so what happens then is those same clients don’t want to seek physical healthcare. And so I think the same thing happens in the mental health world, but I think the mental health world is better about just because we see a lot of clients with varying communication levels and just varying ways of looking at the world, which is I think a beautiful thing. But I think we’re kind of better about that. But as far as the physical healthcare, I think there’s a long ways to go. So a lot of my clients and a lot of my job really is advocating for clients and teaching them to advocate for themselves because whether it’s a physical health disability that’s visible or invisible, they get dismissed a lot because of any mental health concerns. Stephanie Flynt McEben: That is some super helpful information. Thank you so much for sharing that! I know that yesterday you and I were actually talking, specifically yesterday, about just general instances of when individuals, for example, who have mental health diagnoses or mental health disabilities, Have not been believed by whether it be healthcare providers or whether it be just in different situations because of their disability. Could you talk a little bit more about that and what that’s looked like and how you’ve been able to help folks work through that, whether that be directly or indirectly through your job? Quinn McEben: Sure. So I think that looks like I was mentioning going to the doctor for chronic pain. And so something as severe as stomach cancer, right? And so imagine this, you have a client that is having stomach aches. It’s having a stomach ache, it’s getting worse, it’s getting worse, and they keep going to the doctor, but the doctor won’t do imaging because they’re like, oh, it’s stress, it’s anxiety. But they won’t do imaging. They won’t do any follow-up tests and when someone finally believes them it’s cancer that’s advanced to a stage that we can’t treat it. And these are kind of the stories that I unfortunately have seen that’s like I said, a generic example, but I have seen things that are that traumatic. And so things that I recommend to my clients are getting other, they can advocate for themselves and we teach those skills. But if the providers still aren’t believing them, because unfortunately there are some good providers and there are some providers that I think provide competent care that are discriminatory. So you can switch providers or sometimes if someone else steps in, whether it’s a family member or another professional like myself where there’s a lot of support staff that talks to the physician and is like, “Hey, can we maybe think about running this tests?” And then just getting that outside advocacy, teaching those advocacy skills for the patient and then teaching them how to reach out to other people if they need. Again, it’s really sad that we mean that, but thankfully there are people in positions that are able to help. And then ultimately, if you have a provider that’s not believing you, you need a new provider. And not that we shouldn’t trust our

In what is (potentially*) the start of an ongoing series, this month we’re joined by our own Rebecca Shaeffer for a discussion of what people with disabilities experience in the carceral system, how they disproportionately end up there, and what we can do to support returning citizens.   *This is contingent on us being organized enough to do that.   Full transcript available at https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-april24/   Jack Rosen: All right. Michelle, you want to kick us off? Michelle Bishop: I’m sorry. Did we decide who was going to intro the topic and read the bio before we started recording? Or… Stephanie Flynt: No, we just clicked record. Michelle Bishop: Just started recording when we have no idea what we’re doing? Stephanie Flynt: ♫ Be prepared ♫ Okay. Michelle Bishop: Was that The Lion King? Stephanie Flynt: Yes. Well, Nala’s here, I have to sing The Lion King. Michelle Bishop: Jack, use all of this. ♫ Intro Music Plays ♫ Michelle Bishop: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to National Disability Radio. Woo. We don’t have a cheer sound, do we? I keep telling Jack to put a cheer sound in there, but I don’t think we have one. Stephanie Flynt: I think I said a cowbell. Michelle Bishop: Well, everything needs more cowbell. Stephanie Flynt: Yes. Michelle Bishop: But, everyone, applaud while you’re listening at home. Woo. All right. Good enough. I’m Michelle Bishop. I’m the voter access and engagement manager at NDRN and one third of your podcast hosting team. Stephanie Flynt: And I’m Stephanie Flynt, public policy analyst here at the National Disability Rights Network. And I am the two thirds. Can’t do fractions. Michelle Bishop: Look at us doing math. Stephanie Flynt: Yeah. I know. Raquel Rosa: I also don’t do math. This is Raquel Rosa. I am your community relations specialist here at NDRN, but if we’re going to do thirds, I do like pie and pizza, so we can pretend that I’m the final slice. Michelle Bishop: Also, it is April and none of us are doing your taxes, for a reason. We went into civil rights because math ain’t our thing. Welcome, everyone. We have an exciting episode for you this month. Before we jump into it, do we have any news or exciting or, of course, hilarious things to talk about? And, of course, our producer should introduce himself as well. Jack Rosen: Oh, I don’t know, you introduced the three thirds of the podcast team. Stephanie Flynt: Oh, no. Michelle Bishop: The most bitter thing every episode. Stephanie Flynt: Okay, a four. Jack is now a producer host. Michelle Bishop: No. That’s not the vibe we discussed. This has been discussed. People all know it’s been discussed behind the scene that Jack is our Gelman. Okay. He’s our producer who’s featured on air. It’s a very specific important thing. I mean, Regis and Kathie Lee were nothing without Gelman. Raquel Rosa: That’s a reference for those of us who are over 40. Michelle Bishop: Wow. I feel personally targeted, but- Raquel Rosa: So, I’m right there. I’m right there. Michelle Bishop: Yes. So, we have a really interesting complex topic to bring to you all this month. We’re going to be looking at the intersection of the disability community and the criminal justice system. And this is a topic that it runs so deep in so much of the civil rights work we do in the disability community, and is so complex and so broad that actually if all goes well with this episode, we were thinking of turning this into a bit of a short series of episodes addressing this issue from different angles. Don’t ask us when those next episodes are coming out. We have not planned them yet. But this month, we’re going to kick it off actually by talking to one of our own. We have for you Rebecca Shaeffer from NDRN. Rebecca joined NDRN in 2023 as a staff attorney for criminal justice and institutions. In this role, she provides technical support and training to P&As in their work monitoring, investigating and litigating rights abuses against people with disabilities involved in the criminal legal system, from police emergency response to jails, prisons, and reentry. Prior to joining NDRN, Rebecca worked for over a decade in international human rights, where she helped to develop and implement new standards for criminal procedural rights in Europe, the US and Latin America, and supported networks of criminal defense lawyers with international and comparative legal expertise and peer learning facilitation. Raquel and Stephanie were live on the scene for this interview, so take it away ladies. Raquel Rosa: Today we have our very own Rebecca Shaeffer. She is the staff attorney at NDRN who focuses on criminal justice and institutions. Rebecca, thank you for joining us today. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Rebecca Shaeffer: Hi, I am so excited to be on the podcast. I’m an avid listener. I joined NDRN in July as the staff attorney for criminal justice and institutions. That means that I provide technical support and training to protection advocacy agencies for all of their work on behalf of people with disabilities who are in jail or in prison, who are in contact with police, or who are recently reentering back into society after being incarcerated. My background is as an international human rights lawyer focusing on criminal systems and penal systems all around the world. And I’m super inspired by the work of NDRN and the protection advocacy agencies and just really excited to be part of this conversation and this work. Stephanie Flynt: Awesome. Thank you so, so much, Rebecca. Super helpful to have that background and super excited to have you as an avid listener of the podcast. So, you get a gold star for that one. Rebecca Shaeffer: I love gold stars. Stephanie Flynt: Yay. All the gold stars, all the awards, all the thanks. So, I guess, I would start off by asking, in your opinion, why do you think that individuals with disabilities are disproportionately incarcerated or affected by criminal systems? Rebecca Shaeffer: So many answers to this question. And first of all, I just want to acknowledge that people with disabilities can get into trouble with the law for the same reasons that anybody else can. And so, that happens. They’re people and sometimes they run into trouble and that’s definitely part of the story. But you’re right that people with disabilities are disproportionately represented in prisons and jails and in criminal systems. And that’s for a lot of reasons, that really come back to our failure as a society to accommodate people in the community with disabilities and our failure to invest in collective care for people with disabilities, such that they become alienated from society. And that happens because people with disabilities, because of failure of society to accommodate them in childhood, because of abuse and neglect and exclusion from school and from activities, because of contact with institutions throughout growing up, may end up with trauma, may end up with a lack of educational and professional opportunities as they grow, or maybe attempting to self-medicate using drugs that are criminalized in our society. So, for all those reasons, people with disabilities can end up with behaviors that are criminalized. But also, people with disabilities behavior is often misunderstood, particularly by law enforcement, as criminal when it’s not. This is particularly true for people with mental health disabilities, people with autism, developmental disabilities, intellectual disabilities, whose behavior in public sometimes attracts the attention of bystanders or of police and is misunderstood as dangerous or disruptive in some way. And they’re shuttled into the criminal justice system instead of having their needs met through health or care or other sorts of just normal cultural interactions. We know that people with disabilities are more frequently hurt and killed by police in interactions and that they may find themselves in poverty and in homelessness and in other situations that leave them vulnerable to police intervention in ways that can be really dangerous for them. There’s also ways that contact with police can go wrong in the course of normal traffic stops or other ways that police interact with people on the street, in public. For example, if someone’s deaf or hard of hearing, if they’re blind or low vision, or if they have mobility impairments, they may not respond to police when they’re told to stop or put their hands on the dashboard, in the same way that differently-abled people may, and that can be misunderstood by police and lead to unnecessary arrest or violence by police. So, these are the ways that people with disabilities get funneled into the criminal justice system at a disproportionate rate. Raquel Rosa: Thank you for shedding some light on that. Rebecca, you’ve touched on this a little bit. And in my thinking just about the breadth of the disability experience, I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about what it’s like for people with disabilities who are incarcerated. I’m sure it’s the big bite to take of the apple, but if you could just talk a little bit more about that. Rebecca Shaeffer: Being incarcerated is a horrible experience for pretty much everybody who goes through it. So, I want to start there, but it’s certainly not set up for people with disabilities. I mean, prisons and jails, like any other institution, have to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Facilities should have an ADA coordinator, but nothing is going to away the fact that these facilities are just not set up for people with disabilities, regardless of what their disability may be. And this differs by facility and it differs between jail and prison. Prisons may be a little bit better some of the time at accommodating people, but if you can imagine, for example, being deaf, using sign language to communicate with people and having to be handcuffed every time you’re moved from one part of the facility to another. You can’t speak, you can’t co