Life After Ministry

At some point in ministry, we start confusing busyness for faithfulness. We tell ourselves that exhaustion is just the cost of obedience - that being needed, stretched thin, and constantly available somehow means we’re doing it right.  But deep down, we know something’s wrong. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever. This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry. Key Takeaways Being busy for God is not the same as being faithful to Him. Stress isn’t proof of calling; it’s often a signal of fear or misplaced trust. Burnout is your body’s declaration of bankruptcy - an invitation to reorganize your life. Ministry culture often rewards overwork, but Jesus modeled a rhythm of rest and presence. True stewardship includes managing time as a sacred resource, not an endless debt. Building trust with time begins by creating small, consistent commitment plans. You don’t have to burn out to be fruitful. The work of God is sustained by the peace of God. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Matt and Andrew reconnect after 20 years 01:43 – When “busy for God” became burnout 05:18 – The body declares bankruptcy on stress 07:03 – Solving the time problem 09:21 – Is burnout a failure or a signal? 13:52 – Fear, faith, and our emotional relationship with time 17:24 – How “commitment plans” build peace 19:10 – Leading others in stewardship of time 23:48 – What life looks like on the other side of burnout 26:33 – Teams that heal their pace together Learn more, donate, or schedule a confidential transition call at MinistryTransitions.com Explore Andrew Hartman’s resources - free masterclass, coaching, and tools - at TimeBoss.us  

Most pastors imagine ministry as a lifelong calling, until something shifts - slowly, painfully, or all at once.  In this episode, Brad Gray and Brad Nelson share their unfiltered stories of leaving pastoral ministry, wrestling through uncertainty, and discovering the faithful presence of God in seasons where nothing made sense.  Their journeys reveal how transitions can expose hidden wounds, force honest discernment, and ultimately reshape our understanding of calling. From uprooting a thriving teaching pastor role with no job on the other side, to the quiet unraveling that nearly cost a marriage, both men walk through the tension, grief, and surprising grace that comes when God invites you into a future you can’t yet see.  And at the center of their healing is a rediscovery of the Lord’s Prayer - not as a childhood memory, but as a daily blueprint for partnering with God. This conversation is hope for the discouraged, a mirror for the exhausted, and a companion for anyone wondering whether there is life after ministry. There is. And it might be more expansive than you expect. Key Takeaways How God can initiate a transition long before you understand it. Why community and spiritual friends are essential during vocational upheaval. What happens when the pain of staying becomes greater than the fear of leaving. How unaddressed wounds from ministry begin to surface during transitions. Why the Lord’s Prayer is a daily blueprint for grounding, clarity, and direction. The difference between assignment and calling in a leader’s life. How God works slowly, quietly, and faithfully in seasons that feel stalled. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introductions and the two Brads 01:10 – Brad Gray’s unexpected call away from a thriving church 03:45 – Moving to Nashville without a plan 07:00 – Brad Nelson’s painful exit from church planting 09:35 – How ministries unravel marriages and identities 12:30 – Discernment, tension, and the pivot point 14:30 – When pain forces change 20:00 – The Lord’s Prayer as a blueprint for life 25:43 – Kingdom, calling, and partnering with God 29:09 – The making of the film and book 33:06 – How churches can use the new resources 38:30 – What they would say to their former selves 42:49 – Is there life after ministry? 43:40 – Final thoughts and blessing Your story is not over. In fact, this may be the first time in years that God finally has the space to show you who you are beyond what you do. If you’re navigating a transition, facing a forced resignation, preparing for succession, or simply unraveling quietly under the weight of ministry, reach out. You don’t have to make these decisions alone. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation or to give toward a leader who is carrying more than they can name. And if you want to explore the formative power of the Lord’s Prayer as a companion in this season, engage the resources at https://thelordsprayer.com. They offer a film, a forthcoming episodic series, and a new book designed to walk with you as God leads you into what’s next. There is life after ministry. And God is already in the future preparing it for you.

Dr. Nathan Baxter loved ten hours of his job. Those one-on-ones with staff fueled him. The rest slowly emptied him. Naming that truth started a two-year journey out of a role he’d held for decades. He didn’t abandon ministry. He changed vehicles so his calling could breathe again. In this conversation Nathan walks through a practical runway. He set a modest income target, built a small savings cushion, and launched a coaching practice with a pastor’s heart. He also shares the moment his elders asked him to leave sooner than planned and chose surprising generosity, a gift that humbled him more than any pain. Now coaching CEOs and pastors alike, Nathan talks finishing well, clarifying a “particular purpose,” and the three anchors every leader over 50 needs: margin, influence, and hyper-intentional living.  If transition feels like free fall, this episode will help you steady your soul and take the next right step. Key Takeaways Honest work audits can reveal misaligned roles without shaming your calling. A two-year discernment window can hold fear, finances, and family well. Build a simple runway: clear income target and small savings cushion. Generosity in transition can reframe pain and deepen humility. You can keep a pastoral identity while changing employers. Finishing well rests on margin, influence, and intentional living. Purpose is discovered over time. Let the desert do its work. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and background 02:20 When the job isn’t the joy anymore 04:55 Two-year wrestle and first paid coaching moment 08:24 Elders, early exit, unexpected generosity 10:14 Building a practical runway and budget targets 12:16 Why “Lead Self, Lead Others” 16:02 Defining finishing well in the fourth quarter 18:18 Retiring the fee, keeping the call at 68 20:07 Purpose unfolds slowly, not suddenly 24:42 Margin, influence, and hyper-intentional life 27:30 Why pastors make great coaches 30:01 CEOs and pastors face the same pressures 31:38 Wisdom to a next-gen pastor son 34:03 Where to find Nathan’s work Before you make the next move, make the wise one. Visit ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential call, get transition tools for your board or staff, or give to help another leader walk through theirs with dignity. To learn more about how pastors can become powerful leadership coaches, visit leadselfleadothers.com or realcoachingsuccess.com. You’ll find tools to help you clarify calling, build a coaching rhythm, and multiply your impact beyond the church walls.

When the role that once fit like a second skin begins to suffocate, what do you do? For Duncan Robinson, it meant stepping away. No scandal. No collapse. Just honesty and courage to say, “I need to sit down and be fed.” That decision took him from church staff to radio hosting, from the pulpit to row three, and eventually back into ministry with a new clarity.  Along the way, he discovered how to face failure without fear, how to detach identity from role, and why bi-vocational rhythms might be the healthiest way forward for pastors. If you’re navigating transition - or helping someone who is - this conversation offers language and hope for what comes next. Key Takeaways  Identity is received in Christ, not earned by a role Failure roars like a lion but shrinks when faced Grace isn’t tidy - it meets you in real time Bi-vocational ministry mirrors the lives of congregants Pastoral skills translate beyond the pulpit Churches can pilot one day of outside work for healthier staff The wilderness is where God grows clarity and love Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and setup 05:15 From Phoenix growth to Australian valley 08:30 Radio hosting and a father’s death 10:56 Untangling identity from role 15:45 A year of silence and being fed 21:05 What “pastor” really means 24:50 Transferable skills pastors overlook 29:20 Why bi-vocational makes sense 40:10 Real-time grace at the speed of Jesus 45:10 Closing If you’re a pastor or ministry leader facing transition - or walking with someone who is - you don’t have to do it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com to explore coaching, confidential conversations, and resources designed to help you protect people, preserve purpose, and plan what’s next with wisdom and grace. To connect with Duncan Robinson, visit DuncanRobinson.net for links to his projects, speaking, and his book Full Phoenix Rising: Real-Time Grace at the Speed of Jesus - a raw and redemptive look at failure, faith, and finding your way back when everything falls apart. You can also find Full Phoenix Rising on Amazon, Target, Walmart, and other major retailers. If this conversation encouraged you, share the episode with a friend who might need to hear that stepping out of ministry doesn’t mean stepping out of God’s calling - it might just mean walking it out differently.

Ministry employment isn’t just HR. It’s covenant community, stewardship, and public witness.  In this episode, attorney and former ministry leader John Melcon explains how churches and nonprofits can handle staff transitions without abandoning their values or ignoring real risks. John shares his own sudden exit from a director role in Christian higher education and how that season led him to serve ministries as legal counsel.  He outlines why U.S. courts often take a hands-off approach to religious leadership disputes, what that means for pastors and boards, and how to prepare before conflict ever arises. From “talk about your last day on your first day” to using Christian conciliation instead of civil court, this conversation offers a road map: clarity in writing, compassion in tone, and a process that keeps the mission central. Key Takeaways Mission and values - not fear - should drive personnel policy and decisions. U.S. law generally avoids entangling courts in religious leadership disputes; plan accordingly. Written agreements can be precise and pastoral when drafted with mutual dignity in mind. Succession planning is discipleship: normalize timelines and transitions early. Consider mutual confidentiality/non-disparagement; avoid clauses that suppress lawful reporting. Use Christian conciliation for disputes when both parties voluntarily opt in. Involve counsel early - clarity at formation prevents costly confusion at separation. Chapter Markers 00:00 — Welcome, the tension of boss and brother 02:54 — John’s ministry background and unexpected termination 08:55 — Discernment, law school, and a new calling 12:51 — “Lawyers aren’t the enemy” and the advisor model 16:07 — How religious liberty shapes ministry employment 23:43 — Loyalty, performance, and ending well 28:49 — Clarity at the start: contracts, bylaws, expectations 32:56 — Christian conciliation vs. civil court 37:36 — NDAs, confidentiality, and what’s wise now 41:43 — Culture signals: how we say goodbye       When ministry transitions go wrong, the fallout isn’t just legal - it’s spiritual. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss and change with clarity, care, and purpose. Start your next chapter at ministrytransitions.com. And when wise legal counsel is needed, John Melcon brings both legal expertise and a ministry heart. Learn more about his work serving churches and nonprofits at taftlaw.com/people/john-terry-melcon/.

Quiet fatigue rarely announces itself. It hums under the surface until a crisis forces a decision.  In this conversation, Marine veteran and Forte co-founder Vineet Rajan reframes care for leaders as mental fitness - a proactive, daily practice that keeps pastors and nonprofit teams clear-headed, resilient, and ready. We contrast mental fitness with therapy, name the everyday pressures leaders face, and offer accessible rhythms that fit real life.  You’ll hear why churches are becoming early adopters, how to reduce noise so you can notice what God is saying, and why outcomes - not just usage - should drive board decisions. If you lead people, steward budgets, or carry a call that feels heavier than it used to, this episode gives you language, guardrails, and next steps to strengthen your team without adding shame or hype. Key Takeaways Mental fitness is proactive training; therapy is reactive care for acute needs. Both matter. Leaders fight three constants: entropy, the enemy, and evil - training helps us endure them. Preventative care beats crisis management; reduce interior noise to increase signal. Ministries love the model because it separates staff care from supervisory entanglements. Outcomes matter: increased productivity and well-being translate to real ROI. Accessibility drives adoption: mobile scheduling, short sessions, and confidentiality. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and setup 01:00 Vineet’s backstory: immigrant kid to Marine officer 04:00 What is Forte and who they serve 05:45 Mental fitness vs mental health - clear differences 09:20 Preventative maintenance and the “office vent” analogy 11:45 The three E’s: entropy, enemy, evil 15:00 Why churches became early adopters 19:30 EAPs, engagement, and outcomes that matter 22:05 The secret sauce: accessibility and aspiration 25:40 From interrogation training to loving people well 29:00 Vision: organizations solving big problems, people known and whole 31:15 Next steps for leaders and teams 33:30 Closing and partnership When leaders hit quiet fatigue, care starts with community. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss, burnout, and change - helping them rediscover clarity and calling. Visit ministrytransitions.com. For mental fitness solutions, Forte serves both sides of the mission field. Explore getforte.com/faith for Christian organizations, businesses, and nonprofits, or getforte.com for teams in the broader marketplace looking to build resilience and clarity.

When termination happens behind a closed door, the impact lands in the kitchen, the car line, and the kids’ bedrooms.  In this episode, pastor’s wife Kristen Joy Humiston tells the story of being shut out of the room, hearing “you’re done here,” and driving home past the houses of those who voted yes. Matt and Marilee name what many spouses carry in silence: rejection before termination, the isolation that follows, and how trauma forms when you have no voice, no choice, and no people.  They also get practical. What to do on day one. How to breathe, pack, and protect your children. How boards can reduce harm and how churches can care for the whole family, not just the titleholder. There is life after ministry. It may look different than you imagined. Yet dignity, honest community, and thoughtful planning can close a wound and leave a healed scar.  This conversation offers language, tools, and hope for spouses, leaders, and boards who want to do hard things better. Key Takeaways Forced termination becomes traumatic when people lose voice, choice, and community. Boards can reduce harm through clear policy, generous severance, and family-wide care. Day one priorities: safety, breathing space, housing plan, immediate financial triage. Spouses often sense red flags early; their intuition should be invited and honored. Community mitigates trauma; isolation cements it. Build a small circle fast. Identity untangling takes time for both pastor and spouse; purpose is bigger than a role. Support groups for ministry wives provide consistent, safe spaces for real healing. Chapter Markers 00:00 Cold open and setup 03:22 Introductions; why this conversation matters 05:49 “You’re done here”: the termination moment 09:29 Red flags and the slow drift toward decision 11:29 Rejection before the firing; betrayal and shock 16:32 The body keeps the score: words fail, pain speaks 20:06 Day zero logistics: kids, school, where to go 26:51 Finding footing: packing, jobs, housing 31:24 When the church orbits the pastor and forgets the spouse 35:29 How boards can reduce harm and do this better 40:11 Healing in community: support groups for ministry wives 50:17 Life after ministry: new work, real purpose 53:18 Preparing for a high-risk profession: finances and wisdom 55:24 Resources, next steps, and hope Connect with Matt and the team at MinistryTransitions.com for guidance through terminations, transitions, or succession planning. Explore Kristen’s support groups and coaching at KristenJoyCoaching.com for pastors’ wives and women navigating ministry fallout.

When a beloved role ends, identity gets loud.  In this candid conversation, Joshua Gordon traces his journey from ministry-adjacent entrepreneur to a surprising new assignment after his business collapsed in COVID. A trusted friend’s hard words, deep prayer, and patient community became “spiritual physio” that restored his sense of self in Christ. We talk about the gap between intention and impact in church transitions, why being “driven” can hide quiet desperation, and how to hear God’s still small voice before things are literally on fire.  Josh shares the practical and pastoral moves that protected his marriage, his kids, and his future calling. If you are a leader facing an ending, a board guiding one, or a pastor recovering from one, this episode offers language, wisdom, and hope. Faithfulness isn’t empire building. It’s walking with Jesus in ordinary choices that shape a lifetime. Key takeaways Intention without action creates collateral damage in transitions. “Driven” can be desperation in disguise; identity must relocate from role to Christ. God often speaks through memory, community, and quiet checks in the soul. Invite truth-telling friends. Love risks being misunderstood to protect you. Over-preparation can be control; trust requires limits on our need to manage outcomes. Measure success by faithfulness to Jesus and people, not by platform. Healthy endings open a window for deep heart work and future freedom. Chapter markers 00:00 Cold open, Canadians and calling 03:20 Intention vs impact in church transitions 07:30 PK expectations and disillusionment 10:20 Building a ministry-minded business 12:40 COVID collapse and costly layoffs 16:20 Untangling identity from role 18:45 A memory from God that exposed motive 28:55 “Physio” for the soul and daily trust 38:00 Friendship that told the hard truth 47:50 Closing one work, starting another 52:15 Learning to follow quiet discernment 59:30 Wealth redefined: family, faith, and freedom 1:04:15 Kingdom over empire, final blessing If you’re facing a ministry transition - or helping someone through one - visit MinistryTransitions.com to find confidential guidance, resources, and hope for what’s next. For more from Joshua Gordon and The Lead Pastor, visit here: https://theleadpastor.com/ 

When the New York Times ran with allegations surrounding Willow Creek’s founding pastor, Steve Carter had a choice: keep the machine running or protect the trust of the people in the room. He chose integrity - and walked away from the stage that had defined his career. In this conversation, Steve names the real costs: the silence inside the institution, the “values higher than the chaos” that guided him, and the morning-after reality that there was no job, no safety net, and no way to control the narrative. He talks about the anger he absorbed, the outside leaders who showed up, and the therapist’s hard question that kept him from repeating patterns. But the story doesn’t end in exile. It moves through a real wilderness - grief, breathing, waiting - and into a humbler, healthier life: moving back to the Midwest, choosing place over platform, and becoming the lead pastor at Christ Church. What emerges is a field guide for anyone facing a crisis of integrity in Christian leadership. Key Takeaways  Integrity over institutional preservation: Trust is sacred; don’t trade it for optics. Name “values higher than the chaos”: Decide in advance what you won’t violate when pressure comes. Healing is not transferable: There’s first-hand wounding and first-hand healing; your family needs its own path. Interrogate attraction to unhealthy systems: Ask why certain leaders and cultures feel “safe.” Grief takes the time it takes: Practice a Holy Saturday rhythm - don’t rush from Friday to Sunday. Choose place over platform: Calling is often geographic and relational, not positional. Lead from scars, not spin: Wounds can become witness when truth is told and humility is practiced. Chapter Markers 00:00 — Cold open: Why transitions are never just “staff changes” 04:53 — “These are my people”: the early joy at Willow 06:47 — Crisis emerges; what repentance would have required 09:14 — The headlines drop; “I won’t play with people’s trust” 11:52 — Who can you trust when the room is spinning? 17:22 — Six options, and why pastoring again wasn’t one of them 19:26 — Therapist’s jolt: “Why are you drawn to narcissists?” 22:16 — Outside support vs. inside backlash; the binder of messages 25:34 — Reframing the anger; learning what people were really saying 27:59 — Starbucks incident; a son’s question about “reward” 33:25 — Grieve, Breathe, Receive: the Holy Weekend framework 36:53 — Wilderness theology: disorientation to reorientation 39:36 — Reentry: discerning a safe, healthy church 41:33 — “Steve of Chicagoland”: called to a place, not a position 43:50 — Inner Hybels and inner Ortberg: action and formation 47:20 — Staying in touch; practicing faithfulness, not fame If you’re walking through a ministry transition or facing hard decisions about leadership, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to explore resources, donate to support a leader in the thick of change, or book a confidential call. You can also learn more about Steve Carter’s ministry and resources through Christ Church of Oak Brook and by picking up his book Grieve, Breathe, Receive at stevecarter.org/book.

Many pastors find themselves at the end of their ministry career unable to retire - not because they lack calling, but because they lack financial security. Churches often avoid the money conversation, leaving leaders stuck in the pulpit longer than they should be. In this episode, financial strategist Gabe Pelphrey opens the curtain on why retirement planning for ministry leaders so often gets ignored. He explains the unique challenges pastors face, the role boards must play, and the courageous conversations that make succession possible. This isn’t just about money - it’s about stewardship, legacy, and ensuring both leaders and churches are prepared for what’s next. Key Takeaways Why many pastors cannot financially afford to retire The board’s role in annual compensation and planning reviews How rabbi trusts and deferred compensation plans protect leaders and churches The danger of assuming “God will provide” without planning Why courageous conversations about money and succession matter How retrospective compensation studies address past underpayment Why planning early ensures dignity, security, and peace in transitions Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome & Introductions 01:20 – The hidden financial crisis in pastoral transitions 03:45 – Who holds responsibility: pastor or board? 06:15 – When pastors retire into poverty 08:00 – Unique financial tools for churches (rabbi trusts, 403b9s) 10:13 – Stewardship and courageous conversations 13:27 – Strongholds around money in ministry 16:40 – Poverty mindset vs. extravagant misconceptions 20:06 – Retrospective compensation studies explained 22:53 – Gabe’s background and calling into this work 25:06 – How Stewarded serves churches and nonprofits 27:00 – Why Ministry Transitions + Stewarded work hand-in-hand 32:29 – Preview of joint webinar Retirement should not punish calling. Visit stewarded.io to schedule a strategy session. Build a clear roadmap with your board using tools like 403(b)(9) plans, rabbi trusts, deferred compensation, and retrospective compensation studies so your pastor can finish with dignity and your church stays strong. If succession or a financial crunch is on the horizon, do not walk it alone. Go to ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call. We help pastors and boards craft integrity-first transition plans that protect people, steward resources, and prepare your church for what’s next.

Behind every thriving ministry is a foundation you can’t always see - standards, accountability, and trust. Without them, the most passionate vision can unravel overnight. In this episode of Life After Ministry, ECFA’s Jake Lapp explains why accountability matters not just for auditors and boards but for pastors, leaders, and anyone entrusted with Kingdom resources.  He shares how ECFA’s standards were designed to serve ministries, not stifle them, and how transparency is one of the clearest ways leaders reflect Christ’s call to integrity. If you’ve ever wondered whether accountability hinders or helps ministry, Jake’s perspective reframes the conversation. This episode offers a framework for leaders who want to guard the mission, protect their people, and leave behind a legacy of trust. Key Takeaways Accountability is not bureaucracy - it’s discipleship. Transparency builds trust faster than vision statements. Financial integrity protects both leaders and the people they serve. ECFA standards are guardrails, not red tape. Trust is earned in drops but lost in buckets. Healthy structures create freedom, not restriction. Integrity in hidden details sustains visible ministry. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction to ECFA and Jake Lapp 02:05 – Why Accountability Matters in Ministry 05:20 – The Role of ECFA Standards 09:45 – How Transparency Builds Trust 13:10 – Common Pitfalls Leaders Face 17:25 – Trust, Integrity, and Long-Term Sustainability 21:40 – Encouragement for Leaders in Transition Strengthen the foundation you cannot see. Visit ECFA.org to review the Seven Standards, explore practical tools, and begin a clear pathway toward accreditation. Build transparency that protects people, guards the mission, and reflects Christ’s call to integrity. If a transition is on the horizon, do not carry it alone. Go to MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call and build an integrity-first plan that safeguards your people and purpose. If you’re able, give to make this support possible for another leader.

What happens when the very act of caring for others leaves you depleted?  Laura Howe, founder of Hope Made Strong, knows firsthand the toll of compassion fatigue. From her own season of burnout came a global movement equipping churches to address mental health with wisdom and grace. In this conversation, Laura shares her personal journey from exhaustion to renewed purpose. She reminds us that burnout is not a moral failure, but a workplace hazard for anyone serving in caregiving roles.  With honesty and clarity, she explains what resilience truly looks like, how to know when you’ve moved from “yellow” into “red,” and why churches must begin addressing mental health as part of whole-life discipleship. For leaders in transition, this episode offers a lifeline. You’ll hear not only practical wisdom but also the hope that God redeems what feels wasted.  Whether you’re a pastor, a board member, or someone carrying unseen weight, Laura’s insights offer courage to pause, refuel, and continue faithfully. Key Takeaways Burnout and compassion fatigue are hazards of caregiving, not signs of weakness or sin. Resilience is less about powering through and more about bouncing back. Ministry leaders must learn to recognize their “zone” on the green-yellow-orange-red scale. Sustainable care in churches means creating belonging, purpose, and hope - not acting as clinics. The Church has a unique capacity to support mental health across every stage of life. Global interest in integrating faith and mental health is rising rapidly. Hope Made Strong and the Church Mental Health Summit provide free, practical resources. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction to Laura Howe and Hope Made Strong 01:10 – Laura’s Burnout Story and Birth of Hope Made Strong 03:13 – Understanding Compassion Fatigue and Resilience 06:12 – How Do You Know It’s Time for a Change? 09:17 – From Red Zone to Hope Made Strong 12:15 – Sustainability and the Church’s Responsibility 16:04 – Why the Church Must Embrace Mental Health 19:50 – Launching the Church Mental Health Summit 23:25 – Personal Reflection and Final Encouragement If this episode stirred something in you, take a next step: visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession - or give to help another leader get timely support. Then head to HopeMadeStrong.org to equip your team for sustainable care by registering for the Church Mental Health Summit and accessing practical tools for your church.

What if the missing piece in your leadership is not more strategy but more empathy?  Bill and Kristi Gaultiere say empathy is oxygen for the soul, and many leaders are gasping without realizing it.  They join Matt to unpack how Jesus models secure attachment with the Father and how we can receive and reflect that love in daily life. Bill and Kristi name the empathy deserts many of us grew up in, why ministry culture often rewards self-neglect, and how receiving care is not a luxury. It is discipleship.  The conversation lands with the Four A’s of Empathy. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge. Affirm. Practice these, and watch connection and courage return. If you are ending a role, beginning again, or preparing for a hard meeting, this episode offers biblical wisdom and field-tested tools to do hard things with Jesus’ easy yoke. Key Takeaways Empathy is not sentimentality. It is the way love becomes believable and actionable. “We love because He first loved us.” Many leaders grew up in empathy deserts. Naming this breaks shame and opens us to care. Jesus models secure attachment with the Father. Presence before performance. Prayer before platform. The Four A’s of Empathy help in any conversation. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge significance. Affirm strengths. Receiving empathy enlarges capacity for compassion at home and work. Empathy transforms hard transitions. It dignifies layoffs, fuels grief work, and softens the ground for forgiveness. Leaders need safe people and slow practices that rebuild attachment to God and others. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and name pronunciation fun 01:38 What is Soul Shepherding and the easy yoke of Jesus 04:10 Release day for Deeply Loved and why empathy matters 04:43 Empathy deserts and early stories that shape leaders 07:45 Why Christian leaders struggle to receive love 11:06 Empathy is oxygen for the soul 14:48 “Is empathy soft?” Gender, strength, and honesty 20:38 Attachment, secure bonds, and practical tools 26:30 Theology plus psychology in Deeply Loved 27:03 The Four A’s of Empathy explained 38:22 Empathy in layoffs, burnout, and hard meetings 43:53 Where to find the book and Soul Shepherding retreats 45:08 Close and gratitude Explore More Resources: Dive deeper into the themes of this episode by visiting soulshepherding.org/deeplylovedbook for Bill and Kristi Gaultier’s Deeply Loved, and find confidential guidance and support for ministry transitions at ministrytransitions.com.

Sixty episodes. More than 70,000 downloads. And countless stories of leaders who’ve walked through suffering, loss, and transition - and discovered God’s faithfulness in the middle of it all. In this season finale, Matt Davis pauses to look back on the lessons of Season Four.  From transformational suffering to leadership in crisis, from the wilderness of interruption to the challenge of succession planning, these conversations have pointed us toward what truly sustains ministry. More than just a recap, this is an invitation. An invitation to reflect on what God may be stirring in your own life and to consider how you might come alongside leaders who are navigating the hardest moments of ministry. Key Takeaways Every testimony is more than a story - it’s a prayer for God to do it again. Suffering, when surrendered, can become transformational. Presence matters more than polish in crisis leadership. Succession is both organizational and personal - it requires planning on both levels. The Church’s culture is an operating system, not an event. Leaders in transition need more than strategy - they need support. You can be part of multiplying hope for leaders facing transition. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction: Season 4 Wrap-Up 01:00 – Why Testimonies Are Prayers for God to Do It Again 03:15 – Lessons from Guests: Suffering, Succession, Wilderness, and Culture 09:00 – Succession as Both Organizational and Personal 12:00 – Supporting Leaders in Transition: An Appeal 15:00 – Thank You and Looking Ahead to Season 5 Ministry Transitions stands in the gap for pastors and ministry leaders who’ve been let go, burned out, or are simply facing their next step - and they need your help. Visit ministrytransitions.com to: Access resources Sponsor a leader in crisis Or schedule a conversation to take stock of your next step You’re not giving to a program - you’re giving to a person with a calling. Let’s walk with leaders through their lowest valleys and help them find hope again.

What if waiting until you’re ready keeps you from ever starting?  In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Holly Tate, founder of The Ready Network, to talk about leadership, courage, and stepping into the unknown. Holly shares her own story of transition - from years at Vanderbloemen, to joining Leadr, to launching her own work helping leaders and teams move from stuck to unstuck.  Along the way, she opens up about fear, the myth of readiness, and how emotional intelligence shapes the future of ministry leadership. For pastors, boards, and ministry leaders wrestling with change, this episode offers both empathy and clarity: you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just need the courage to take the next step. Key Takeaways Why emotional intelligence often outweighs skills in ministry hiring. The unique challenges of church staffing versus corporate staffing. Holly’s hardest transition and what it taught her about calling. How the Ready Framework moves leaders from chaos to clarity. Why starting scared is better than never starting at all. The “Yes Barometer” that keeps teams from being derailed by new ideas. How transformation requires courage, vulnerability, and faith. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Matt introduces Holly Tate 01:30 – Early leadership influences and church impact 05:30 – Lessons from staffing and hiring in ministry 08:50 – Transition to Leader and lessons from 2020 15:10 – Starting scared: email, podcast, and new ventures 21:00 – The Ready Framework explained 26:45 – Why teams need the Yes Barometer 29:30 – Becoming ready by doing Next Steps Learn more resources for ministry transitions at MinistryTransitions.com Explore Holly’s coaching and clarity framework at TheReadyNetwork.com  

Every ministry transition comes with both a push and a pull. Sometimes you’re drawn toward a new calling. Other times you simply know you can’t stay.  For Tim Stevens, those moments have shaped four decades of leadership in the church - and given him a front-row seat to hundreds of leaders navigating their own endings and beginnings. In this conversation, Tim shares candidly about untangling his identity from the church he helped build, why pastors often stay too long, and how to navigate the grief and uncertainty that come with leaving.  From decades at Granger Community Church to crisis leadership at Willow Creek during COVID, Tim has lived through seasons that tested both his loyalty and his leadership instincts. Now, through Leading Smart, he walks pastors and boards through governance challenges, succession planning, and leadership transitions.  Tim offers practical wisdom for both leaders in the second chair and those tasked with guiding major shifts - always with the reminder that ministry endings can be done in ways that protect people, preserve purpose, and prepare for what’s next. Key Takeaways The “push and pull” dynamic is present in every ministry transition. Identity can become dangerously intertwined with a role - separation is painful but necessary. Pastors often stay longer than they should due to loyalty, finances, or lack of vision for life after ministry. Succession planning must start years in advance to avoid crisis moments. Governance structures that worked for a smaller church may need major revision as the church grows. Churches rarely have systems in place to care for staff after terminations or transitions. Healthy endings require intentionality, outside support, and a willingness to let go. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Pickleball, Notre Dame, and the start of the conversation 02:29 – Matt’s transition season and early connection with Tim 03:17 – Tim’s 40 years in ministry and five major transitions 06:55 – Leaving Granger: identity, co-dependence, and the year-long decision 13:06 – Lessons from Vanderbloemen: big vs. small church transitions 15:17 – Leading through crisis at Willow Creek during COVID 18:49 – The birth of Leading Smart and the work Tim does today 24:36 – The state of the American church and Gen Z trends 26:20 – Why pastors aren’t ready for succession - and how to prepare 28:33 – Outplacement and caring well for staff you have to let go 32:21 – How to connect with Tim and Leading Smart If you’re in a season of transition - or see one on the horizon - visit MinistryTransitions.com to connect, give, or book a confidential call. And explore Tim’s work at LeadingSmart.com for coaching, consulting, and resources your church can put into action right now.

What if the health of your ministry depends more on your board than you think? Dr. Michael Anthony has spent 40 years in boardrooms - as a member, chair, consultant, and C-suite leader - and he’s seen what works and what breaks ministries apart. In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health. From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it. And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose. Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next. Key Takeaways Why lack of proper orientation is one of the most common board failures. How a “log of motions” can prevent repetitive mistakes and clarify focus. The three duties of board members: care, loyalty, and obedience. Why clear role boundaries prevent dysfunction between boards and staff. Succession planning as a regular board discipline, not a crisis reaction. The critical role EQ plays in leadership longevity. How God can use painful transitions for deeper growth and joy. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome & backstory with Dr. Michael Anthony 01:11 – Why this book on nonprofit boards 02:18 – Common causes of board dysfunction 05:24 – The onboarding process done right 07:43 – What’s a “log of motions” and why it matters 09:48 – The three duties of every board member 14:36 – Board size, terms, and rotation 18:04 – How to transition a board member off gracefully 20:36 – When to resign from a board for unity’s sake 24:17 – Role of the board chair & relationship with CEO 31:09 – Using ongoing board training to stay healthy 32:11 – Succession planning without personal attack 34:39 – How boards can handle leadership exits well 38:43 – Accountability, care, and EQ in board leadership 43:54 – What’s at stake if boards are neglected 46:52 – Differences between church and nonprofit boards 49:52 – Growing through painful ministry transitions 57:52 – How to connect with Dr. Anthony If you’re walking through a ministry transition - or know someone who is - you’re not alone. Connect with us at ministrytransitions.com for coaching, resources, and a path forward. To reach Dr. Michael Anthony directly, email manthony@dts.edu or michael@calibrateglobalconsulting.com.  

What happens when a leader transitions not just into a new role - but into their calling?  In this episode, Matt Davis introduces Ron Henry, the newly appointed Chief Succession Officer at Ministry Transitions. Ron brings decades of experience in executive placement and career development, but his deeper calling?  Helping leaders find where God wants them next. This isn’t just a career conversation - it’s a soul-level journey.  Ron shares raw stories of failure, fear, and faith, revealing what makes a transition succeed or fall apart.  Whether you're facing a career shift, retirement, or leading an organization through change, this episode is packed with wisdom you need now - not someday. If you’ve ever asked, “What’s next for me?” - this conversation is your next step. Key Takeaways From Music to Ministry: Ron’s career in music and executive search wasn’t random - it was preparation for ministry impact. The Power of NetWeaving: True connection isn’t just networking - it’s purposeful relationship building. Great Fit vs. Good Fit: Success isn’t just about skills. Cultural and spiritual alignment make all the difference. Why Transitions Fail: Fear, pride, and desperation can sabotage a move. Wisdom, patience, and community bring peace. Succession is Spiritual: Planning for what’s next isn’t just smart - it’s biblical stewardship. Community Over Ego: Millennials’ community-first mindset gives Ron hope for the church’s future. Finishing Strong: Leaders must not cling to identity in a title. True legacy comes from passing the torch well. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome + Big Announcement: Ron joins Ministry Transitions as Chief Succession Officer 01:05 – Ron’s Journey: From the music industry to executive search to ministry 02:38 – NetWeaving Defined: The art of connecting people with purpose 03:36 – What Makes a Great Fit?: Beyond resumes - finding calling and chemistry 05:25 – Why Transitions Fail: The danger of pride and panic hires 07:12 – Building vs. Self-Focus: Healthy transitions prioritize relationship 07:59 – Why Now?: Ron’s fourth quarter and finishing strong 09:28 – What CSO Really Means: The responsibility behind the title 10:52 – Where the Church Misses It: Lack of awareness and training in transitions 12:54 – Leaders Who Avoid Succession Planning: Fear, pride, and identity traps 14:19 – Joshua and Moses: Biblical blueprint for succession 15:40 – The Moment Ron Lives For: Seeing someone discover God’s purpose 17:40 – Why Millennials Give Him Hope: Community, transparency, and change 19:51 – Living Water: Why input must be matched with output 21:14 – Mentors + Influencers: The people who poured into Ron 24:38 – To the Board Members: What you're really accountable for 26:44 – How to Reach Ron: Email and conversations that start with coffee 28:00 – Final Words: Linking arms for Kingdom impact   If you’re in ministry and facing a career shift, don’t walk that road alone. Ministry Transitions exists to walk with you - through the letting go and into what’s next. Whether you're a pastor, a board member, or a nonprofit leader, now is the time to steward your transition well. Visit ministrytransitions.com to access resources, connect with Ron, or schedule a confidential conversation today.

What do scuba diving, salary spreadsheets, and severance packages have in common? According to David Fletcher - everything.  In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church. They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust.  Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has.  You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred. It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church. Key Takeaways The Business Brain + Pastor’s Heart: Every ministry decision is both relational and organizational. You need both instincts. Why Fit Matters More Than Failure: Most terminations aren’t about incompetence - they’re about misalignment. The $300,000 Mistake: Dave breaks down the actual financial cost of a poor staff transition. Tell the Truth Without Telling Everything: How to communicate firings to staff and congregation without gossip or spin. Marriage and Ministry: Why laughing, insider jokes, and iced tea matter more than most leadership books. Give It Away: Why Dave gives away nearly everything on XPastor.org - and what it’s doing for churches worldwide. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Intro & How Greek (Yes, Greek) Led Dave into Ministry 02:30 – The Wild Ride from Kids Ministry to XP 04:45 – Why the Executive Pastor Role Is All-In 06:30 – Letting People Go with Dignity 08:15 – Calculating the Real Cost of Bad Transitions 12:45 – How to Communicate a Termination (Without Creating a Firestorm) 15:30 – What’s Changed in the Church (Spoiler: Everything) 18:00 – Should Every Pastor Be Bivocational Now? 22:00 – Health, Marriage, and the Art of Insider Jokes 26:00 – Behind the Madness of the XPastor Seminar 28:45 – Fair Salaries and Why They Matter 32:00 – The Goal: Fully Enjoy God If you’re navigating a leadership transition or just want to do ministry with more clarity, courage, and peace - check out the free resources at ministrytransitions.com. And for coaching, salary tools, or to attend the next XPastor Seminar, visit xpastor.org. It’s the guide you wish you had years ago.  

What if the scariest thing about leaving ministry wasn’t the loss of your job - but the loss of your identity?  In this episode, Matt sits down with Josh Taylor, former executive pastor turned chief marketing officer, who opens up about what it’s really like to step off the platform and into the unknown.  From twelve years of trusted leadership in a growing church to a surprising turn through a university layoff and a marketing agency for car washes, Josh’s story is full of quiet pivots, faithful risk-taking, and unexpected grace. But this isn’t just about changing careers. It’s about the slow death of pride, learning to hear God's voice outside the church walls, and becoming the kind of husband, father, and friend you were always meant to be. If you’ve ever wondered what ministry looks like when your title disappears - or felt a holy nudge toward “something more” - this conversation will meet you right where you are. Key Takeaways Why identity is one of the hardest things to untangle when leaving ministry How Josh navigated an unexpected layoff - and why it turned into one of the best days of his life What it looks like to still live out ministry in a secular workplace How to listen well, talk honestly with your spouse, and step into an unknown future with trust The surprising truth about being a present dad (and why the phone isn’t the only distraction) Chapter Markers 00:00 – Josh's journey into ministry and long tenure as executive pastor 04:30 – Lessons from staffing, transitions, and team dynamics 07:25 – When boredom, burnout, and frustration signal it’s time to go 12:00 – Why Josh and his wife stepped away from their home church after resigning 17:00 – A safe landing at a university… and an unexpected layoff 19:30 – The power of a spouse’s words during a pivotal moment 22:50 – From pastor to car wash CMO: how to make sense of an unexpected calling 28:00 – How Josh stays present as a father and what he wants his son to remember 31:00 – Advice for leaders who feel called to step out but don’t know where to start   If you’re wrestling with what’s next after ministry, you don’t have to figure it out alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to find practical support and a team who’s walked this road too. And be sure to follow Josh Taylor on Instagram at @joshtaylor.guide for thoughtful reflections on leadership, fatherhood, and life after ministry.