Inside DuckDuckGo

In this episode, Gabriel (Founder) and Caine (CTO, first employee) discuss the history of our search engine, why now is the right time to build a full web search index, and how our scale makes us uniquely positioned to ship, learn and iterate quickly. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Gabriel: Hello, welcome back to Duck Tales. I haven’t been here in a while. And I am Gabriel Weinberg, the founder of DuckDuckGo. And I have with me someone who I don’t think has been on Duck Tales at all yet, but you should know, Caine Tighe, who I know very well, who’s the first employee of DuckDuckGo and now our CTO. Caine.Caine: Hi Gabe.Gabriel: We’ve been working together for a very long time. And we’re here today to talk about something we’ve both been working on. Caine more than me, but I’m working on it some, which is our web search index. So as some background, first some background. DuckDuckGo started as a search engine, as many people know, and it was actually started by me. I was by myself for a few years. And the first thing I did was start crawling the web and building a web index.Caine: Yeah, for sure.Gabriel: But you know, I soon realized that that is very expensive, especially as one person. And there were other places to get a web index at the time. And what was more interesting was maybe adding value on top of the web index. So building other indexes, this was a time, this is the mid 2000s, you know, there weren’t, there obviously wasn’t AI, but there wasn’t even really many instant answers on search engines.Caine: I mean, that’s what we were working on together at the very, very beginning. Like we were working on, you know, you had the knowledge graph. It wasn’t called a knowledge graph at a time, but you were doing all the structured content from Wikipedia and otherwise. We worked on some other smaller indices. So yeah. And then actually fun fact, in hiring our backend project is still based on some of the original spam and content farm crawling, like one of the projects is based on some of the spam and content farm crawlers that you originally wrote. So that lives on 15 years.Gabriel: Yeah. So we were doing lots of indexing and lots of crawling. Yeah, exactly. Just not, you know, we started, but then we stopped doing a full web index, but just as examples, right? We started like the code that you were talking about indexing Wikipedia, which became our knowledge graph, you know, which is, powers a lot of answers, which also we used when we started working on AI answers. We’ve been doing local indexing for, you know, over a decade, local businesses and things like that. You know, then all sorts of kind of niche indexes that involve some crawling like lyrics and things like that. So indexing technology is not new to us, despite what some people say about it. Sometimes we do lots of search indexing, but we hadn’t been doing a full web index until relatively recently, last few years-ish. But now we are. And so the question is, the questions and why you’re here, and we’ll talk about it for a few minutes, is kind of why, what’s going on, how, all the main questions, which we’re obviously not all gonna answer today, but we can start with, I think, kind of the why, but why are we well positioned to work on this? So to speak, and you’re kind of at the center of it, so I think you’re a good person to ask.Caine: Yeah. I mean, I think, the why now is a mixture of like our needs. Like we want to support our own AI use cases. That’s we have two primary agent, agent driven products out. Search Assist, which is on the SERP, search engine results page, duckduckgo.com. And then we have Duck AI, which is our chatbot. And both of those products are hungry for this kind of data. So it, yeah, it just makes sense for that.Gabriel: Yeah, in particular, right. You could maybe talk percentages, but like there’s some percentage of search results now, what is it like 25%, I think that have Search Assist answers. And then, you know, the percentage better made for Duck AI, but some significant percent call the web, 15% maybe.Caine: Yeah, I always do. I do, I have my numbers based on, absolutes make more sense. Yeah, yeah, just, yeah.Gabriel: You know what? Bad question. Ignore numbers. Doesn’t matter. Good percentage of queries and Duck AI prompts require web search. And so we need a web index for it, essentially, right?Caine: Yeah. I mean, I think on the chatbot side, it’s really good, like to ground. If you’re deciding whether or not to ground and you’re on the line, you should probably use RAG, retrieval augmented grounding, and go out to a third party data set. For us, raising the standard of trust online. We want to do that because the more that you ground, it’s known empirically, the answers are better. So we err on the side of grounding where I think maybe not everybody does. So it’s really good that we need to build our own index in order to be able to accommodate that. So that’s kind of some of the why now. And again, it’s on Search Assist and it’s on Duck AI. One of my favorite parts about this whole thing is like, we’re very used to working for customers, like our end user. For the search index, duckduckgo.com itself is the customer. A very nuanced, unique thing for us to be able to serve ourselves, which creates this really tight feedback loop internally. So it’s been cool to like use our own and we are live for, you know, some amount of the traffic today. That’s just growing day over day for these use cases.Gabriel: That’s a good point because like, I think in terms of like our position, well, positioned to do it is, you know, being live, you know, maybe we talk about that a little bit, but like that creates a feedback loop that we have that a lot of people don’t have because we have, you know, many, many millions of people using our search engine and now Duck AI. And so we’re getting constant feedback about the relevancy of the search results that we’re serving, not to mention the fact that we have almost 20 years of evaluating relevancy ourself on our own search engine.Caine: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So like, humans are unsurprisingly and appropriately more, more critical of results than agents are. So it kind of creates this higher fidelity feedback loop because, you know, through our, through anonymization and whatever else, like we can privately understand what is most relevant on the internet for customers and users. And that really helps us to, positions us to be pretty competitive in the space quickly. So like, I think that’s kind of interesting and it’s exciting and like the true DuckDuckGo way as you and I know well, like we like to ship stuff. And so it’s been really cool to, yeah, like it’s just been really cool to be using it already and in production, our own index. And it creates that flywheel and we could, you know, use buzzwords like reinforcement learning and this, that, and the other thing. But at the end of the day, it’s just really the relationship of consuming your own internal API product. That’s the flywheel and allows you to like establish relative priority really quickly and be like, I ran this experiment. Like we really think this query set is going to be well suited to our own index. And then we tried and we’re like, we’re not working that well on that. Let’s move to this other one. And then it just changes the game for how quickly you can iterate, which has been really exciting for, and I know the team’s really excited about it too, because engineers like to ship things. So that’s been cool.Gabriel: Perfect, I think that’s a good intro. But let’s do, to your point about buzzwords, let’s do a few more buzzwords in terms of like, just give us the broad tech flow, like, you know, without getting too deep into anything, but just to give people a sense of kind of how it works and then maybe.Caine: Yeah, so kind of the way that I think about this is like a little pipe or a train or whatever. You have your frontier that kind of is the web that you’re looking to crawl, like, because you have to pick what your frontier is. Then you crawl that. Crawling, all of these components are extremely complicated by themselves. To crawl, it means like, you need to crawl politely. Some sites want you to crawl, some sites don’t want you to crawl. And so to be a good trustworthy netizen, you have to respect those things. And that’s an important part of crawling. It’s also important to have the bandwidth and the throughput to crawl at the scale that you need to crawl. And so fortunately for us, we’ve had a lot of experience with that, so we have that. The rendering side, you have to, when you fetch content, you have to render, including JavaScript and everything else like that. The only way to get the content is to literally run the whole webpage. Otherwise, like you get no content. So that’s quite an expensive process. So we kind of do a naive approach and then a more complicated rendered approach. Then you have content extraction, which is like the next step, where you think about your title, your description, your headings, metadata, main body stuff, where you extract the content, what the page actually means. And then we’re very fortunate in today’s day and age to have semantics. So semantic search is a big part of the pipeline. And what that means is what people are calling embeddings. And you calculate embeddings on extracted content. And then we use a database, which I quite like, called Vespa. And it’s all ingested into Vespa. In my opinion, kind of your indexing, your ingestion, your features, how you calculate those things, and how they describe, that’s a big description of your product. Because it limits what you can do in the ranking phases, which we could get into. I don’t know if you want to get into the ranking funnel as well or just

This episode, Mary (Associate VP, Brand) Beah (Chief Product Officer) and Bobby (Director, Product) discuss how DuckDuckGo’s browser onboarding was designed, why it matters for a privacy browser, and how Dax’s personality helps users feel confident in their protections.Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Mary: Hi everyone and welcome to Duck Tales where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss stories, technology and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. In each episode you’ll hear from employees about our vision, product updates, engineering and our approach to AI. I’m Mary McGee, I work on brand and marketing here at DuckDuckGo and I have two fellow product folks here with me today that I will let introduce themselves. Beah, why don’t you start?Beah: I’m Beah, I’m on the product team. How was that?Mary: I mean, I couldn’t have done that. You did great. Bobby.Bobby: This is stuff. I’m Bobby. I’m also on the product team.Mary: Wow, this was good.Beah: And furthermore, we both have the word burger in our last names.Mary: That’s true.Bobby: This is true.Mary: We are here to talk about browser onboarding today. And we have both Beah and Bobby here as folks that have worked on onboarding over the years. We can take you back to its origin. We can take you to some of the new changes. That’s kind of what we’re gonna do here and talk a little bit more about it. So why don’t we jump right in? I think, you know, why don’t I ask this to you Beah? Why don’t we start with you? What do we mean by browser onboarding? Like what is effective onboarding and why do you think it’s important for a privacy browser to nail this?Beah: Yeah, so I think of onboarding as like, basically, the user’s first experience getting to know the app, what is this, how do I use it, and potentially beyond that first experience, could onboarding could last over multiple uses of the app or multiple days. But like the thing that you need to do to get a user from interested, sure, I’ll download it to like, I know how to use this. I know what this is. I know what the value is to me. I know that I want to keep using it ideally. And it’s really important, I think, for probably any app because many, I think for most app categories, the majority of users become non-users after one initial trial of the app, if not the majority, certainly a lot. And so that is a very important moment to show users what you are and what value you can bring to them. And to your question about for a privacy app or privacy browser, I think one of the challenges is that our apps are browsers with a built-in search engine, and all of that should just work. And the privacy protections that we’re providing, for the most part, aren’t really visible for intentional and just organic reasons, like we don’t want to get in your way, and like when, like the absence of bad things is just kind of invisible. So like, you know, I think it’s important for us in particular to like communicate in onboarding what actually is happening when you use the app.Mary: So there’s like an explanation component of like how to use the app. And then there’s sort of a first impression, like this is who we are, this is how you should feel using it. Bobby, like can you talk a little bit about the role of the more like emotive kind of relationship in onboarding?Bobby: Yeah, ultimately, there are, I think, stages to actually understanding and feeling connected with an app. And the first one is just knowing what it does. But there are stages beyond that which are feeling connected with what it does and really feeling like you understand it through experience, not just in theory. And so we try to reveal both through the tone with which we describe things and just really emphasizing demonstration and nudging you to try our features and see them and experiencing them for the first time and let you draw your own conclusions about whether that serves you.Mary: There’s this line in our current onboarding that’s like, it’s something about a tracker losing its wings. Beah, has that been in there since the beginning or is that like...Beah: Well, yeah, since I’ve been working on onboarding, which is like seven years maybe now, it was one of the first big projects that I worked on after I joined DuckDuckGo. Yeah, I think that, I mean, that copy was part of the, I think every time you browse with me, a creepy ad loses its wings. I think that copy came out of the very first version that we pushed live. And yeah, I don’t know. I think it actually hits with people. I mean, maybe, probably not all people, but just all things. I just remember, first of all, the early versions of that onboarding, some of the copy was super silly. I was hand sketching things and just saying whatever I wanted. And then our copy team had a little conversation with me and was like, hmm, maybe we can dial it down a smidge and I was like okay yeah maybe.Mary: It’s, yeah, but it’s a good example of what Bobby you’re mentioning and Beah, your point. Like, it’s like, how do you talk about what the product does, but do it in a way that develops that sort of emotional connection. And it’s a funny testament that it stayed around this long. Since you, go ahead.Beah: I was gonna say, I remember like user testing in like doing video user testing sessions with some of the early prototypes, which were like messy and weird and like hearing participants like laugh out loud, like chortle, say like wow and shriek or like, get mad. Like just have like an emotional reaction that like I definitely had not seen in user testing other components of the app. And I remember being like, I was still relatively new to DuckDuckGo. And I was like, this feels like it’s like doing something different, but maybe I’m just like, want it to feel like that. And I remember sending the videos to our like, kind of head of user insights and being like, am I wrong? Or is this like, are people like really having a reaction? And he was like, no, that’s yeah, they’re spitting their water out. Like, yeah, that’s interesting.Mary: A chortle. Haven’t heard one of those in many, many years. I mean, since you mentioned it, Beah, like what was onboarding before? So we were talking about onboarding as this like personality, emotive. We can get into who Dax is as we talk about this, but I’m curious, like when you started, when you were doing these explorations and these videos, like what did we have and what were you, what sort of made you start doing this? Like why did you start the exploration that you did?Beah: Yeah, it’s funny because we had these, I think the onboarding that we replaced was these tooltips that popped up as you moved around the app that were like, this is the fire button, it burns things, this is where you type, I don’t know. And I realized in retrospect after we launched this that on paper it was not that different. We went from tooltips explaining some of the features of the app to what we call Dax dialogues, our mascot Dax telling you things, but there were just a lot of details, I think, that made it feel very different. You could almost imagine the same onboarding coming out of the same written spec, like both, sorry, both very different onboardings coming out of the same written spec, but in practice and application, they felt very different.Mary: Hmm, that makes sense. Do you have, I know you have maybe some images to share at some point, but yeah, we can always throw these in in post. But I want to, if there’s, yeah, if you want to share, we can always take a look.Beah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can share things. I don’t know. Wait, okay, I think I can share things. Oh boy, I gotta do settings. You talk amongst yourselves.Mary: In the meantime, Bobby, I’m curious, like you came into onboarding. So Bobby came in and was sort of tasked. It was maybe your first project of how can we improve this thing that is working really well, which is not the easiest task. I’m curious, like, what was your first impression? What did you think was working? Where did you want to focus your time?Bobby: Yeah, I think, well, we’ve been talking about the feeling that we were trying to evoke from people. And one thing that immediately was already working in the version that Beah had previously done is helping you feel confident in the app about how to protect your privacy. And I think that’s a pretty high bar. That’s kind of a challenging thing. Privacy protections can be this vague, intimidating concept, but the tone and particularly using Dax’s voice to deliver these messages was not only unique to really any browser that I had seen, but certainly unique for a pretty serious topic and something that is somewhat technical to understand. So the first thing that stood out to me was that lighthearted approach and the lighthearted language while still being very clear that you can be confident that your protections are active and working for you. And then I guess the second thing I mentioned a little bit earlier, which is just really focusing on demonstrating and helping you experience things. The aha moment for me, and I think a lot of the user tests that we observed was when you see the trackers that are being blocked on the first page you visit and it names the companies. You can find that on any page in DuckDuckGo just by clicking on the shield in the address bar, but to reveal it and the first time you visit any page with trackers that are blocked, you see that list right at the top of the screen. And I think that is really illuminating and eye-opening to understand that it’s actually working and that these trackers might be even more prevalent than you think. And they’re probably popping up on nearly every site you visit, which I think is a good, both a helpful way to understand privacy protection in general and

In this episode, Beah (Chief Product Officer) and John (People Ops) discuss aynchronous working, no meeting days, and the role of face to face meetups. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Beah: Hello, and welcome to DuckTales, where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology, and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. This is my dog, Friday. He’s appeared in other episodes. So in each episode, you’ll hear from employees about our vision, product updates, engineering, or our approach to AI.John: Hello.Beah: In this episode, you will be hearing about our approach to remote work. I’ll quickly introduce myself. I’m Beah. I am on the product team at DuckDuckGo. Then, John, I’ll let you introduce yourself.John: Thanks, Beah. Yeah, my name’s John. I work on the People Ops team at DuckDuckGo. You can probably hear from my accent. I’m one of the couple of members of the team that’s based in the UK. So my job is predominantly around meetups and a little bit about culture, but predominantly about meetups and how we meet up in person and a little bit virtually as well. So yeah, that’s my role here.Beah: Great. Yeah, so that is a good segue to jumping right into talking about how we work remotely and how we connect personally given the remote circumstance. So maybe just before we get too deep into the details and what we actually do, can you describe, John, just like what we even mean when we say that we’re a remote company?John: Yeah. So in very simplistic terms, I would see being a remote company as us not all going to one central place to work. You know, we don’t have a big office building that we all come into either on a semi-regular or, you know, an everyday basis. So that is people probably predominantly working from home, but not necessarily. We have ways and means at DuckDuckGo for people to work, you know, in a co-working space with other people if they need that or if they have circumstances at home where they need to. Essentially, there’s a choice and a trust in where people work. We feel, you know, there’s pros and cons to that, but we feel there’s a, you know, overall a net positive, I think, to that way of working. So that’s the way I would think about it, that we work in that way. And then to facilitate that happening, you know, all companies will have tools to, you know, online digital tools to allow people to collaborate and move their work forward. But we maybe think a bit more or maybe have a few more tools that allow us to collaborate digitally and make sure that we do what we need to do online essentially and digitally.Beah: Do you know, you might not, but do you know how many people do work from co-working spaces or somewhere social that is not their home?John: Yeah, not too many in the company. So we offer a financial element for everybody if they want to work in a co-working space. I think we definitely have a handful of people, certainly in our organization, who pretty permanently work in co-working spaces. And that may range from family circumstances or living circumstances, whether it’s just difficult to work from home, through to people that just need that kind of social interaction each day. And that’s what makes them more productive. I think there’s a handful that work fairly permanently from coworking spaces. And then there’s definitely a good chunk of the organization that will treat themselves for a day in a coworking space, maybe once a month or meet up with somebody to work with. But yeah, I’d say that most of our team day to day will work from home, really, have a set up at home. Yeah.Beah: Yeah. And I guess, I mean, we have, maybe I’m getting ahead of the conversation, but we also have plenty of locations where there’s like clusters of DuckDuckGo people, like a dozen people or five people or just three people, and they will sometimes get together, either like work together or just like grab dinner, grab lunch, right?John: Yeah. And that’s happening more and more as we, you know, as we get bigger. You know, I had a quick look at our stats before we started this conversation, you know, 10 years ago, we were around 30 people. So, you know, meeting up was much harder. Now, you know, 10 times that amount. You know, for example, I know there’s a meetup happening in Spain. I can’t remember if it’s Barcelona or Madrid, but there’s a meetup happening soon just because we’ve had a lot of new starters start in that region. So somebody thought, well, that would be nice. We can get to our different types of meetups and how we arrange that. But that’s really cool. We’ve had a few people start in Spain and someone’s thought it’d be really nice to meet up in person. So yeah, whether that’s sometimes dinner or just a co-working day, we’re becoming more and more common.Beah: Okay. I actually am in the midst of planning a family vacation to London and we have a ton of folks there and I am gonna try to plan a meal and see as many people as are willing to come meet me for a meal.John: Yeah. You see, that’s nice. That says something that you don’t want to have for your holiday and completely not see anybody from work. That’s kind of nice. There will be some people who don’t want to do that. But yeah, that’s really cool. That’s really nice. Yeah, we’ve got a lot of folks in London.Beah: Yeah. Yeah, I actually like that. It’ll be cool for my family members to meet folks too, because they, especially as we’ve gotten bigger, they know fewer and fewer of the people that I spend my day with, and so I’m excited.John: Yeah, yeah that’s nice, that’s really cool.Beah: Okay, all right, I kind of got us a little off track there, but I think that’s okay. So tell me a little bit about like, you know, given that we’re just everywhere in the world, how do we do meetings generally? What kinds of meetings? How do we talk live to each other?John: Yep, no, don’t worry. Yeah, I mean, taking a step before how we do meetings, I would say we make an effort in some ways not to do meetings if we can, let that go. So another way of thinking of working remotely or as we, it’s a bit of a pretentious term, asynchronous working or async working. I know when I said that to my family, they were like, what? I was like, essentially we work online, but we write a lot of stuff down. That’s the way I would think of async working. We maybe write more stuff down than a lot of other companies would. So I would say we don’t try and avoid meetings for the sake of it. But I would say that if we can, we try to do things async if we can. And even if we do have meetings at DuckDuckGo, we try and do as much prep before that to save as much time in those meetings as well. And I know I found it slightly disconcerting, but also amazing when I joined DuckDuckGo that sometimes we had a meeting in the diary for half an hour and in previous organizations, half an hour wouldn’t have been enough to cover it. But not only that at DuckDuckGo, we finish the meeting sometimes in like nine minutes because there’s been a lot of chat before the meeting and you sometimes feel like, well, this feels a bit too easy, but it’s because that work has been done already and the meeting is just a really important thing for us to align and if there is anything else. You know, we, other people have maybe talked about this on this, we, Wednesdays and Thursdays are non-meeting days for us in terms of standing meetings. You know, we try and keep those, well, we do keep those for deep work. We don’t make exceptions to that rule. So we do use Zoom, you know, for, and we have, and I really like this, we have a number of processes, I guess, whether that’s kicking off a project or post, what we call post-morteming a project where we, I would go so far as to say we mandate, don’t we, getting together in person, we think getting together on Zoom is important to do those meetings. And we don’t make exceptions to that. And that’s what I mean by having sometimes a very quick meeting, we decide what processes require a meeting. So yeah, most of them done through Zoom. I think it’s very rare at DuckDuckGo to have really more than a half hour meeting, isn’t it? For most project kickoffs and post-mortems team meetings, maybe a little bit longer, but even then we pack quite a lot in. So yeah, most of our meetings are done online and we try and keep them as minimal as possible and as useful as possible. Yeah.Beah: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the way I think about it is like, we, I feel like we try to, you know, reason from first principles about when a meeting is the right venue for something rather than defaulting to meeting. And so there are times when that is absolutely critical. Then there, and there’s times when it’s actually like not the best way to make a decision or come to some conclusion or a hybrid is the best model, like you said, of thinking it through, writing it down ahead of the meeting, meeting to pull out the nuances, do the things that happen really well live. And then also we try to like, you know, we kind of have a principle of like a decision isn’t really made in a meeting. Like a decision can kind of be discovered and cultivated and then we kind of like write it down because there are times when you’re like, you’re caught up in the moment of the meeting and maybe the social dynamics or I don’t know, you’re just, you’re thinking on the spot and then afterwards, you know, in a moment of reflection or writing like, you think, well, maybe that’s actually not the logical answer.John: Absolutely, yeah. And I think another thing I found about meetings at DuckDuckGo, you know, I’ve been here about three years and this is no slight to any other organization I’ve been at, but it also feels slightly disconcerting not giving really any status updates at meetings. Like we tend to dive

In this episode, Cristina (CMO) and John (Marketing, previously co-founder of Removaly) discuss the acquisition process, adjusting to DuckDuckGo culture, and how Removaly has informed our customer service and product strategy. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Show notes: Learn more about the DuckDuckGo Subscription, including Personal Information Removal. Cristina Hi, and welcome to DuckTales, where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology, and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. In each episode, you’ll hear from employees about our vision, product updates, engineering, or approach to AI. I’m Cristina on the marketing team, and today we’ll be talking to John about DuckDuckGo’s acquisition of Removaly, where John was a co-founder and is how we were lucky enough to get him on our team. John, would you like to say hi and introduce yourself?John Yeah, absolutely. I’m John Bourscheid. I’m also on the marketing and communications team. I dabble in basically everything digital marketing, customer support, SEO, and I’m really glad to be here.Cristina Thank you, John. So in 2022, DuckDuckGo made our first acquisition, Removaly, to accelerate building the DuckDuckGo subscription, which today includes a VPN, personal information removal, identity theft restoration, and advanced AI models. So John, first question is an easy one. What was Removaly? What problem was it solving?John Yeah, absolutely. Removaly was a small startup in the data removal space. It was geared towards helping users remove their personal information from data brokers and people search sites quickly, effectively, and completely hands off. We automated the removal process. We provided users with real-time dashboards on removal progress, and we scanned daily to ensure that removed personal information stayed offline. Opting out of those sites manually is pretty complex, which is where services like ours came in.As far as problems, our user base really faced like a full variety of problems from general avoidance of public facing personal details to more proactive removal just for privacy sake to reactive responses from things like doxing, swatting, stalking, you name it, honestly.Cristina Yeah, those are scary, serious problems. Even for someone who hasn’t faced those problems, but is just on a search for their name, it’s super creepy having all that info show.John Yeah.Cristina So what was it like building and scaling Removaly?John It was awesome. My co-founder Kyle and I, we were the only two employees at Removaly outside of an awesome part-time support specialist we hired towards our final months of operation. So Kyle and I started kind of ideating in late 2019. At the time we both had full-time jobs, so it was more of a side project for us. The business was just bootstrapped by Kyle and I from day one. We put our own money into it and we never raised any investor money at any point.So we spent 18 months building and testing the product. Kyle handled the full stack of our dashboards and automations, and I built our public facing site and handled the marketing, communications, and growth aspects. We dabbled in each other’s spaces just to kind of test and validate things. And at the time we were the only US-based and self-funded data removal service, as well as the only service that scanned daily. And I think we still were. As far as scaling goes, we focused mostly on content marketing in the interest of both costs and longevity.We offered free opt-out guides for every site that we covered with our paid service. We did comparison guides between us and competing services, and we offered extensive privacy resources. That content quality really led to extensive organic traffic for relevant search terms, and then active engagement in communities such as IndieHackers, Reddit, and Twitter really helped us grow via word of mouth. But besides the daily scanning, our other main differentiator was support.While there were only two of us working on Removaly part-time, we offered Live Chat, which was super effective in gaining insights into what our existing and our prospective users were looking for in a service. We took this feedback to heart and we used it to iterate on our own product wherever we possibly could. While it definitely made the scaling aspect super difficult, it really wasn’t impossible, it was just exhausting. And this is honestly one of the main reasons that Kyle and I followed through with getting acquired by DuckDuckGo.Cristina That does sound exhausting, but kudos for really listening to users and really wanting them.John Absolutely.Cristina What were your initial thoughts and what was the acquisition process like?John The first signal we got was several DuckDuckGo team members signed up for Removaly on the same day, including our founder Gabriel. When DuckDuckGo first reached out to connect with us, we kind of assumed that they were looking at offering our services to their employees as we were actively working on entering the B2B space with Removaly. Whenever they reached out and floated an acquisition, we discussed it a lot.Everyone we interacted with on the DuckDuckGo team was awesome and the acquisition process went relatively smoothly. It was extensive and thorough for sure. It took about six months from start to finish, but we brought on a guy named Sean Flynn to assist from a mergers and acquisitions perspective as it was totally new territory for both Kyle and I. And he did a great job helping guide us through the process to an amicable conclusion. This is kind of where I dropped the big claim to fame that Kyle and I have of we never met in person until the day we had acquired. In fact, the entire Removaly product was built and for the first year it was run without us even having a phone call. The whole thing was done on Slack.Cristina That’s incredible. And it reminds me of DuckDuckGo’s founder and first employee meeting online. I guess it meant you were well prepared to work in our fully remote company.John Yeah, for sure.Cristina So what was it like joining DuckDuckGo, figuring out our culture, processes, and going from a team of two to 200?John To be honest, the way things that are configured and structured here made it a breeze. Every aspect of DuckDuckGo is meticulous, it’s thorough, and it’s well documented. So learning the ropes here was super simple compared to prior workplaces I’ve been at, at least in my experience. The culture here is really unlike anything I’ve ever experienced anywhere I’ve ever worked. Having built Removaly entirely on Slack, we got used to documenting everything we did.This translated super well to DuckDuckGo’s cultural strategy of working in the open, which makes questioning assumptions and validating direction a really natural step in the process.Cristina Did anything surprise you?John To be candid, we first assumed that the privacy first aspect of DuckDuckGo was less important than dollars, as is the case with pretty much every other tech company we came across.After all, how could a company really have such name recognition and growth with so few employees while leaving a bunch of money on the table? But after we digested the company culture and the processes and the principles and how things are run, it was obvious that we were way off in that assumption. I’ve really never seen a company like this where we just truly take privacy seriously, put it at the forefront of everything we do and do so purposefully, even at the detriment of revenue. It’s really impressive and admirable. And I’m really glad to be able to be part of a great crew.The motto that we don’t track our users is not really just fly by night. It really is how we do things here. And it consistently impresses me even over three years into this.Cristina I agree. And what can I say except we talk the talk, we walk the walk. As challenging as it can be, it’s a big part of what makes working at DuckDuckGo so special.John For sure. Yep.Cristina So how has Removaly informed DuckDuckGo’s personal information removal?John Yeah, so the initial plan was to deconstruct Removaly completely and then rebuild it with stronger privacy controls and rebuild it on device, which was and still is a major differentiator in this data removal space. For a bit, I was focused on assisting in this endeavor wherever possible using my very, very scattered skill set. The on-device aspect was pivotal to truly ensure users’ privacy, and it took a ton of development and testing to make it a reality.There was, to me, a lot of awe and admiration that I felt watching Kyle essentially build a business from scratch by hand in 18 months with Removaly. I really got to relive that from a totally different perspective watching several of the most talented developers and designers I’ve ever seen do it all over again on steroids. It was super, super cool to watch.Cristina So what’s next for personal information removal?John The data removal space has gotten super turbulent in the past few years to the point where some of our competitors have shut their doors completely. It’s a constant battle with people search sites to effectively and automatically process and submit these opt out requests for people. Despite this, we’ve kept our heads above water. We figured out connections between sites and we’ve been reworking our processes to effectively continue to remove personal information automatically for our subscribers.The regulatory space for data brokers is also changing constantly. We’ve been working on collaborating with other services and regulatory agencies on the most effective ways to keep this dissemination of personal information at bay. So it’s a constant battle, but we’re in the fight for the long haul.Cristina Yeah, a never-ending challenge, isn’t

In this episode, Mary (Senior Director, Brand), and Nirzar (AI Design Lead) discuss why we developed a new typeface, how we implemented it, and its role in communicating our personality. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Mary: Hi everyone and welcome to DuckTales where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology and people building privacy tools for everyone. I’m Mary. I work on the brand side here at DuckDuckGo. Today we’re talking all things typography and more specifically how we developed DuckSans, our new custom typeface. So I’m here with Nirzar who beyond being our product design lead for AI, he’s a real typeface nerd and complained about our previous default typeface for, I don’t know, like five years, five plus years. So we had him lead the effort so he will be able to answer all of our questions. Nirzar, thanks for joining.Nirzar: But yeah, Hey, hi, I’m glad we’re talking about fonts.Mary: First prop use of the conversation. All right, I’m jumping right in. For folks who are less familiar, why does a typeface matter? Why not just use the defaults? What is the benefit? What are you trying to do by creating a custom one?Nirzar: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think there is nothing wrong with using defaults to be honest. Nowadays default typefaces for operating systems are very well designed. Take San Francisco, Sans for example, by Apple is very well designed typeface and it’s going to be fine. I think the main part of this is mostly about what our product is. DuckDuckGo is a search engine, have UI chat. Most of our product, although it seems like it buttons in Chrome, Windows, most of it is actually with text content, like we take search results or take the AI chat with Apple. So around like 80% of product surface that you’re seeing is typography. We spent so much time on like thinking about color, this, that, buttons, styles. I think typography and type setting kind of require that much attention as well because they take like most of your screen when you’re using it. The reason for not using defaults, I think it’s where kind of the brand maturity sort of goes into it’s something we wanna do to kind of associate a kind of a feeling, kind of a look that we want to encode in our brand. I mean, I can go into a lot more detail about this, but just the idea is like, you want to make... Yeah, but like, yeah, the idea is you’re basically kind of creating an ownable sort of like element. I think typography is as important as the blue color that you use and the brand colors that you use and everything else.Mary: I know you could. I know you could. I think the search engine as a surface is a good point to bring up because, know, obviously, like I mentioned, I work on the brand here at DuckDuckGo. And when you look at the search engine, you’re often questioning, you know, how can I inject more personality? How can I inject more of our, you know, our over our affect into the product and make people know when they look at it that this is DuckDuckGo. This isn’t Google. This isn’t Bing. And there’s really not much you have to work with.Nirzar: Right.Mary: Obviously you have the logo, but the typeface makes a huge difference. And so, for folks who haven’t seen it, this is where we rolled it out first. So you might have noticed a difference, but this was kind of one of our key areas we were most focused on. Nirzar, we began the exploration, what were the factors you were considering? Because obviously there’s hundreds of thousands, if not millions of typefaces that have been customized to choose from. What were you looking for specifically?Nirzar: Yeah. I think the process starts with just collecting what are the use cases that we have, obviously, and what are the goals we have. I think in speaking about the goals, I think the main and most important thing, goes without saying, is just legibility and readability of things. And when I say that, it’s a little bit different than designing type setting for a book or something where it’s going to be read in a very specific setting and control that, you know, the paper you’re going to print it on. Like for us, we are talking about across devices, across platforms, across different types of screen densities. Like there’s many, factors that come into play when like somebody is going to look at your work, the design work that we’re doing or the product and run work we’re doing. So I think just considering all of those, tying that with this making it like the most functional but at the same time having more character so there are these like opposing sort of challenges as well you can’t have a lot of personality because then readability suffers if you focus only on readability then personality suffers then you have something that is like that looks bland and default it is extremely readable but you can’t tell it is DuckDuckGo so we were kind of like talking about the challenges and the spectrum of where to land on personality versus readability. And yeah, I think that being the goal, I think that’s where we started our exploration at.Mary: Mm-hmm. You. Yeah. Was there something about the DuckDuckGo personality you wanted to bring out in particular? I mean, as folks know, we have a duck for the logo. Like there is a whimsical element to the brand that but you don’t want to go as far as like comic sans by any means. Like what were you most looking to play up when you talk personality? What was your goal?Nirzar: Thank. Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s a very difficult challenge. I mean, definitely our brand is kind of, I don’t know, I really like it. It’s very quirky and sometimes goofy and derpy as well. But at the same time, we also care about trust and other things which are kind of, can seem very opposite point of view. But for me, it was more about like bringing a little bit of sort of pluck to it. So, and like the way it kind of gets codified into the shapes of the letters is more about like how certain things, what is the angle at which you cut the corners on a terminal of C for example, or the way you look at DuckSans Q, it’s very sharp and it’s very straight, but then you and other letters kind of complement the roundedness and friendliness into it. So it kind of like the, the kind of characters you’re looking for kind of trickle down into these like very specific things about shapes. Yeah, I mean, it’s not perceptible like right away when you look at it, but it is thought out. There’s thought behind all of these things.Mary: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. That makes sense, yeah. But there is, yeah, definitely. I mean, even thinking about when you talk about it being standardized versus like when you change certain shapes, you’re making it less uniform in some ways. You’re making them certain things stand out. Like we spent a lot of time, I remember deciding how big to make the dot on the eye. And we were like, no, like a little bigger actually. And so it’s like to your point about it not being immediately perceptible. I think when you take a step back and you see it all together, maybe you notice something that doesn’t look quite as uniform, quite as standard.Nirzar: Yes.Mary: Which is what the brand is going for. But it is funny when you end up fighting or not fighting, discussing the I dot on the letter.Nirzar: Yeah, I mean, it might, like, I really think, I think if you don’t work in typography or in design in general or brand, you might think that we’re just like fighting over or discussing non consequential things. But actually, what I care about mostly is having meaning to it and not just doing it for the sake of doing it, but actually like putting meaning behind, codifying values and trust and all of these things into visual like artifacts.Mary: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so let’s get into a little bit how we found and started creating DuckSans. So DuckSans is based off of Pangea. Do you remember how you found Pangea or how you came across it?Nirzar: I don’t quite remember but so Pangea is a typeface that was designed by Fontwork. It’s a type foundry in Germany. I remember using a Fontwork typeface few years ago on a project. So I basically like I have a that’s my like thing that I do in free time go to type foundries and look at that.Mary: Yeah. Don’t tell people this. It’s too revealing.Nirzar: But yeah, I think there has been a renaissance in type foundries recently. I think there’s a huge amount of work that is happening. And there’s a third wave of typography coming in, and digital typography particularly. There’s a lot of experimentation going on, variable typefaces, or even just doing very whack things, which are very cool in the last four or five years. So I was very excited to take on a typography project. I was like going through the Rolodex that I have for all the type boundaries to look at what is happening everywhere. Yeah, I think that’s, but I think particularly Pangea caught my eye just because how versatile it looked on the surface. It’s a variable typeface, but it’s just designed for scalability. And it also had a little bit of character to begin with before we customized it as well. But I think those were the kind of two things we are looking for is like something that is like durable, scalable and something that has character at the same time.Mary: Mmm. Yeah. Did you feel that Pangea, sort of as a base, represented a lot of that legibility concerns? So we customized Pangea, so that’s where we ended up with DuckSans. There’s customizations and things we built in. What specifically, from your perspective, were we trying to achieve with the customization? Is it bringing out more character, or do you see it more as an engineering changes?Nirzar: Yeah, we can get to engineering in just a bit. But before that, I think when I say scalability, I mean like literally scalab

This episode, Beah (Chief Product Officer) and Dave (Privacy team) discuss our tracker blocklist, how it works, and why most of it is open source. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) have been lightly edited for clarity. However, they may still contain some minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Beah: Hello and welcome to DuckTales where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss stories, technology and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. In each episode we talk about like something going on with our product or our company or our company vision and or how we operate and today we have our guest is Dave, who’s here to talk about the tracker block list. Hi, Dave.Dave: Hey, Beah. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, sure thing. Yeah, my name is Dave Harbage. I’m a privacy engineer at DuckDuckGo. I primarily work on identifying privacy threats, building features to protect our users from these threats, and ensuring that we deliver a great web browsing experience.Beah: Do you wanna introduce yourself briefly? That sounds very important, Dave.Dave: Yeah, yeah, it’s a constant battle. It’s trying to keep up with the developing environment and give our users a good experience.Beah: Thanks for fighting a good fight. So if I’ve hosted, if you’ve seen other DuckTales, you might have met me, but if you haven’t, I’m Beah and I am on the product team here. So yeah, let’s talk a bit about the tracker block list. First of all, what even is it?Dave: Yeah, so our tracker block list is a list of domains and URLs that we found to exhibit what we call cross-site tracking behaviors. We use it in our browsers and browser extensions to block tracking requests and enhance the privacy of our users.Beah: Sweet. So what’s the point of all that? Why did we even make this thing?Dave: Yeah, so at DuckDuckGo, we believe that privacy is a fundamental human right. And we believe that people should have the option to live their lives without third parties recording their every move. We realized that protecting users’ privacy on our search engine was only half of the battle. As soon as users leave our search engine page to visit other websites, they’re subject to these third parties tracking their activities anywhere they go on the web. Pretty much. I think you might be shocked at just how many companies are involved in tracking your activity and also the granularity of the data that they’re collecting. For example, we’ve seen individual websites load hundreds of different tracking requests on a single page load. And it’s all hidden to the users. So we decided that we wanted to build a product that protects our users’ privacy not just when they’re searching, but when they’re browsing the web.Beah: Yeah, do you know like approximately what portion of websites or maybe of web traffic is to a site with or to a page that has trackers on it?Dave: I don’t have the exact number on the top of my head. It is...Beah: I feel like the last I looked at the data, which was a little while ago, was like something on the order of 90%.Dave: Yeah, it’s up there. It’s apps that you install on your phone. It’s websites that you visit in a browser. It’s incredibly prevalent everywhere.Beah: Yeah, so basic premise here, like I mean I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening who like know this in their sleep, but then for those who don’t, it’s like as you move around the web, there may be these hidden trackers that have no explicit connection to the site itself. Google specifically is on just a ton of pages on the internet. So you’re on some random website, like a community, maybe the school your child goes to or something like that. And Google is actually there watching what you do in some sense, collecting data on your behaviors.Dave: Yeah, that’s exactly right. There are many different reasons that websites add these third parties to their pages. Sometimes it’s for analytics, sometimes it’s for advertising. But they all are collecting this information about what you’re looking at, how you’re interacting with the page. And it’s all being sent back to these third parties. It’s not even the site that you’re browsing. It’s not clear that they’re getting this information.Beah: Yeah, got it. So how does that relate to ad blocking?Dave: So in the general sense, what we offer is not an ad blocker. A lot of the open web is supported by ad revenue, and we’re really not out to destroy that business model. It does, however, block ads that track you. So as I mentioned earlier, a lot of these ads are actually phoning home about your activities. They’re either saying, this user lingered on this ad or they had their mouse over it or they’re on this page, it might be kind of personal. And anytime we detect that kind of behavior, we block that. I think a lot of people just don’t really realize that these ads that they’re seeing aren’t just static images or videos. They’re also data collection apparatuses.Beah: Yeah, yeah, so we didn’t set out to build an ad blocker, but because a lot of the code that generates ads or that serves ads on a website has tracking in it, we block it as a consequence of blocking that tracking code. And I notice this personally, like if I use a different browser, I’m often surprised at a lot of sites that I go to on the regular. I’m like, in other browsers, these start halfway down the page because there’s this huge ad at the top.Dave: Yep. Yep.Beah: So, okay, this tracker block list, we built this, are we using somebody else’s data or did we build this in-house?Dave: Yes, we built this entirely in-house. When we first started going down this path, we looked at the existing lists, and they didn’t quite meet our needs. So there are a lot of different open source lists out there. But what we found was that it wasn’t always clear why certain domains were on these lists and why other domains weren’t on these lists. That leaves some room for bias potentially, whether intentionally or unintentionally. In order to offer a good product to our users, we really wanted to build a fully objective tracker list. It’s built on real-time activity observed across the web so that any time there’s a tracker in our block list, if someone were to ask, why is that in there, we can tell them exactly why that’s in there.Beah: Yeah, so actually, do you want to say what the criteria is? What would be the answer to that? How do we decide if something’s a tracker?Dave: Sure, yeah. So every month, the way that we do this is we crawl hundreds of thousands of websites from all over the world. And we look at the behaviors that are exhibited by the third party requests or third party scripts that are on the page. When we’re trying to determine if something is a cross-site tracker, we focus on really a few key criteria. So the first one is, is it setting cookies or is it storing something locally that then could be accessed to track your activity across websites? The second one is, is it accessing browser APIs that are commonly used to create what’s called a fingerprint of your browser or device? So that might be checking to see how much memory your computer has or what kind of CPU you have or the width of your screen or the pixel density of your screen. A lot of tracking happens that way where they gather all the entropy from all of these different signals and they create what’s called a fingerprint of your device. And then they can uniquely identify you just by comparing that fingerprint across different sites.Beah: Mm-hmm.Dave: The third criteria is we look for things that are present on many different independent sites so that we have a lower threshold for what we consider to be a cross-site tracker.Beah: Gotcha. Do you want to talk about are there any interesting challenges, like either technical or user-facing challenges that we’ve encountered in building out this block list?Dave: Yeah, absolutely. So the first one is tracking techniques are evolving. So as we develop a better tracker identification method, these tracking companies see that we’re doing that, or they see that others are doing that. And they devise very clever ways to evade that and make it look like they’re not tracking so they don’t get blocked. So we have to continuously update our detection techniques to stay ahead of them. And then I think the most important issue that we run into is making sure that the web works. Because a lot of websites, what they’ve done is they’ve integrated these tracking companies in a way such that if you block those tracking companies from loading, the site often doesn’t work. We’ve developed a very efficient process for reviewing these breakage reports that we get from users. So in our browsers, anytime you hit a site and it’s not working right, you can report that to us. And then we take all those reports, we look at them, we figure out what’s going on. Is this real breakage? And we fix it. And we do that, I think, pretty efficiently at this point. Most of the time we can get things working within a few days.Beah: Nice. So how, if any listeners are in counter breakage, what exactly should they do to report it to us, our broken site?Dave: Yeah, so there’s two different ways to do it for our browsers. The first way is you can open the privacy dashboard. There’s a little green, we call it a duck foot icon in the address bar. It’s on the left side. Many people might think it’s a shield. It’s actually a duck foot. If you click that, it’ll open up and it’ll give you like an overview of the privacy of the website.Beah: It’s both. It’s a shield and a duck foot.Dave: And there’s a little link there that you can click to submit a broken site report. You can also just submit a broken site report from the primary browser menu in all of our browsers. Yeah, and those come straight to us. And our team reviews them and make sure that everything is working as expected.Beah: Got it. So

Curious how people voted? Head to VoteYesOrNoAI.com Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Kamyl: Hello and welcome to DuckTales where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. In each episode you’ll hear from the employees about our product vision, product updates, engineering, approach to AI, et cetera. I’m Kamyl Bazbaz, SVP for communications and policy at DuckDuckGo. Today I’m with Mary McGee, one of our senior brand directors and I’m very excited to talk about something that we worked on together, which is our Yes AI No AI campaign that just launched. Mary, do you want to introduce yourself and then we’ll start talking about the campaign.Mary: Yeah. Hi, Kamyl. Great intro. So good. I, like Kamyl said, I work on brand here at DuckDuckGo. I’ve been here about six years and I’ve worked on everything from our homepage to onboarding to messaging, all basically, how does it feel to use DuckDuckGo? How does it feel to use the product? What are we trying to communicate to you, our users and the types of conversations we’re looking to have? So I’m excited to talk about this one. It’s a sort of a new effort on our side, which hopefully we’ll see a lot more of.Kamyl: That’s right. So I guess let’s let’s start from the basics. What is the no yes campaign and what are we asking people to do?Mary: Yep. So this is our live public vote on AI and where it came from. Actually, it started probably back over the summer. So, you know, a lot of users will know that we’ve had a version of our search engine, noai.duckduckgo.com for maybe the past six months. And we built it as we were building our AI tools because something that was really important to us was that AI be optional. And that actually, comes from this sort of long history of DuckDuckGo really prioritizing user choice and wanting to let users decide how and when and how much, you know, you’ll notice that throughout all of our products. But when it came to NoAI, we noticed that there was something to this. There was, was, you know, it was getting used, people were talking about it. And it kind of sparked this conversation of like, you know, we believe optionality is, you know, inherent in good technology and letting users make that choice. But we noticed with AI, people really aren’t being given that choice. It’s like every time you see, you got a new email about a new feature or a new product, they talk about their new AI integration. And there’s no talk about how to turn it off. There’s no talk about, you were asking for it, here it is. There’s this sort of like, there’s this real gap between user demand and what companies were releasing. And so, like I mentioned, when we were thinking about AI, we were thinking about useful, private, optional, and there’s something about optional that really stuck out. So that’s where this campaign came from. What we wanted to do was actually ask, a thing that tech companies don’t often do, actually ask people, hey, where do you stand on AI? What is your take? What do you want? And we asked in really a simple way because for us, we sort of can help you either way. If you’re yes AI and you’re like looking to try AI chats or AI summaries, we can help you. We have a private version of ChatGPT. We have search summaries. That’s the yes AI experience. But if you’re no AI and you just feel like AI is being built for someone else’s vision of the future and you’re not represented in these products, we have a no AI version where we take it out and we even go further and remove AI imagery. And so really where this came from was we feel like optionality and choice matter. And so we wanted to create a public vote to help make the case that so do you, so does everyone. Like fundamentally, even if you love AI, you probably want the choice over when and how you use it. And so the idea is to get people to vote, show where they stand, explain why, and all resulting in the idea that like this should be optional. People should have the choice. And that’s what we’re hoping to find and create more of a conversation about.Kamyl: One of my favorite things about the campaign are the updated landing pages that we made on yesai.duckduckgo.com and noai.duckduckgo.com with decks in the middle and a very clear no or yes AI. And so I’m wondering how that came together and what was the creative development around that.Mary: Yeah, the it was actually the first thing we did like before we even decided on the vote or the billboards or anything else we’ll talk about today. It started with these pages because we fundamentally were like, this is the point. This is giving users choices is the representation of it. And so the idea was like, how can you create it a very simple experience? That’s very clear. I think there’s a version of this where you just disable the AI features or enable them and leave it at that. But we wanted these. We wanted to really reassure people about which experience they’re in and make that really clear. So that’s where, you know, just really leaning on the no and yes and the big bold, making sure you knew which experience you were in was really important. And I wouldn’t be surprised if this is something we like continue to think through and find the best way to make sure we’re like serving both sides of this conversation.Kamyl: Yeah, I think you sort of touched on this already, but I think one of the things that I really liked about this campaign from the start is that it felt like something only DuckDuckGo could do. We pride ourselves on optionality. It’s sort of part of our legacy. You should be able to choose privacy. You should be able to choose the default search engine. That’s been a cornerstone of our advocacy for a long time. And as we know, Google, for example, doesn’t give their users an easy way to turn off AI if there’s really an option at all. And so this felt like something that DuckDuckGo had a really unique and credible position to take.Mary: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, speaking specifically of the kind of like no AI side of this, there are many people who want to opt out of these features, you know, and they are really not being given this option. We really felt like people deserve that level of choice. And it just feels like there’s this big group of people just getting ignored right now. And so some of this was both to acknowledge that and make sure they felt like they had, they could use the internet like they want and also create a conversation online and space for them because it’s nobody’s sort of mark talking to this group. You know, some are, but just not quite in this way.Kamyl: So this, you know, people will watch this interview next week. The campaign will have concluded by then. Right now, it’s Wednesday, January 21st. We have over 85,000 votes. And if you want to talk about what the split has been or not split and sort of your reaction to that.Mary: Yeah, so even from the beginning, it’s been pretty much like, I think since the beginning, it’s been like a 93% no AI to 7% yes AI. And it’s really maintained. Like we’ve been watching these graphs from the beginning just stay perfectly in parallel, which has been really fascinating. And I it’s really exciting. Like, you I think there’s been comments on social that’s like, is this what DuckDuckGo expected? You know, all we wanted was to create this conversation about what people want and what they expect from technology and what they’re asking for. Like, we don’t have an agenda. Like, we support optionality, which means we support creating experiences for what people want and serving them both. Really, there’s not, it’s really not about either side winning. That was never sort of the point. It was about creating a conversation about what people want and giving them this like opportunity to express it. The question is really simple, yes or no. And obviously the answers aren’t simple. You know, sometimes people are yes for some things and no for other things, but that’s what we were hoping people would talk about on social. Like take your yes and say what it meant to you. Or, you know, like I’m no, but yes in these ways. We have some creators participating as well. And that’s a lot of what they’re bringing to the conversation is like the nuance, the context, but for us, is like a, we’re really excited to see the conversations people have had. And this is just like exactly what we were hoping for is to create this like very clear stance that like what people are being provided is not what they want. And that fundamentally like from our perspective, that’s why we’re where we are promoting optionality. That’s why we believe that’s important.Kamyl: I think it’s fascinating that we’re a company that gets to live inside of this sort of tension and conflict that, you know, we can spend so much time making noai.duckduckgo.com and have people get extremely excited about it and feel like someone is finally picking up for their point of view. While at the same time, we also have our own internal data from surveys and other research that you know, our AI assist feature, which, you know, uses AI to give, to really expand the number of instant answers, what folks on Google would call the knowledge panel answers, knowledge graph answers, expand those numbers significantly and makes the search experience better. So I think it’s so interesting that we can sort of do both, you know, use AI to improve our services and get good feedback on it and also give people the option to just not have it at all if that’s what they want.Mary: It’s just so interesting that like, it’s that it’s revolutionary, you know, like, or that it’s so rare. Like, it feels like the most simple thing in the world to be like, here’s a new feature. If

In this episode, Beah (SVP, Product) and Omid (Product) discuss Duck Player, how it’s private, and how to use it. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Show notes: Duck Player is available in all DuckDuckGo browsers. When you click on a YouTube video either within YouTube or our Search results, you’ll be asked if you want to view in Duck Player. Beah: Hello and welcome to DuckTales, where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology, and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. In each episode, you’ll hear from employees about our vision, product, updates, approach to AI, or how we operate as a company. In this episode, you’ll hear about a feature called... Oh, Omid, do you want to say it?Omid: Duck PlayerBeah: And I’m Beah Burger-Lenahan. If you’ve been watching DuckTales, you’ve maybe met me already. I’m on the product team here, but you probably haven’t met Omid, so Omid, why don’t you introduce yourself?Omid: Hello, my name is Omid. I’m also on the product team. Been at DuckDuckGo for a little over four years and have worked on a lot of our browser stuff, including email protection, our password manager, and Duck Player, which we’re talking about today.Beah: Sweet. So why don’t you start us off by just explaining what Duck Player is.Omid: Yeah, in a nutshell, Duck Player is a more private way to watch YouTube videos with fewer ads and with no distractions. I can, I think, do a screen share and kind of show you that in action, fingers crossed if this works.Beah: This is actually our second time starting this episode because the first time it didn’t work.Omid: Yeah. So here’s our browser. I’ve got a couple of tabs open. There’s really two main ways to get to Duck Player. If you’re on YouTube and you click on a video, we’ll ask you if you want to watch in Duck Player or No Thank You, which we just watch in right on YouTube as you would normally expect. So if I turn on Duck Player, it opens in a new tab and the video just starts playing.Beah: Okay.Omid: You have the option to always open these videos in Duck Player. You could always get back to YouTube with this button to watch on YouTube, but it’s just your video, nothing else. And all of the personalized ads are gone. So I can kind of go into like maybe some of the details about how that works, if that sounds good.Beah: Yeah, and actually maybe before that, can you just tell people how do they even get Duck Player?Omid: Yeah, so Duck Player is available in all of our browsers, so Mac OS, Windows, iOS, and Android. And by default, when you load a video, you’re going to get asked that question if you want to use Duck Player, whether you’re on YouTube and you have this question here, which you can also remember your choice, or if you’re on search and click on a YouTube video. We’re also going to ask you if you want to watch it on YouTube or watch it in Duck Player.Beah: Got it. Okay, yeah, let’s talk. Tell me a little bit about why we build it and what problem it solves.Omid: Yeah, so we built it as a feature that launched, I guess I could stop sharing screen now, a feature that, it’s still on my screen and it’s there and I know exactly what’s happening. But Duck Player was a kind of a marquee feature of our Mac OS browser launch. This was, I think a bit over three years ago.Beah: You don’t want to though. You want to keep watching the Bad Bunny Tiny Desk. Okay, you’re watching. You’re not even listening to what you’re saying.Omid: We did some research, or at least I think found some third party research about people’s usage in browsers, what they use them for, particularly on desktop and video consumption, specifically on YouTube was a huge use case. And so we wanted to be able to have something that made doing those things more private, because that means more people have more privacy protections. And it was also a differentiator for our browser launch as we were getting into the desktop browser space because we’ve had the mobile apps for a little while and Mac OS was our first desktop browser launch.Beah: Yeah. Yeah. And if I recall correctly, you know, we’d been also doing a bunch of research on ad blocking and learned that the, the one of the spaces, maybe the space where people were most annoyed by, creeped out by ads was video and Duck Player doesn’t show, like you don’t get targeted ads when you’re using Duck Player.Omid: Yeah, yeah, so the way that it works is that YouTube offers this privacy enhanced mode for any embedded video. So if you see like a YouTube video embedded on the web, the person who’s implementing that, making that webpage that has the YouTube video on it can turn on this privacy enhanced mode, but it’s optional and you have to opt into it and I assume not many people do.Beah: Okay.Omid: And so what Duck Player works is we have this special page that loads in the browser and the video you’re trying to watch gets embedded into that special page and we turn on this privacy enhanced mode. And within privacy enhanced mode, we found in our testing that there’s been almost no ads at all and nearly all the ads have not shown up there, but YouTube specifically says that there’s no personalized ads that get shown there. It’s coming from a different domain that uses different cookies entirely and so all the personalization stuff actually can’t happen technically because it’s doing this special privacy stuff, which is nice.Beah: Sweet. And I should have asked this earlier, but I mean, do I have to pay to use Duck Player?Omid: No, you do not. It is entirely free. It’s actually the same technology that we have within our videos vertical on search. So even if you’re not in our browsers, we offer a private way to watch videos if you’re in the videos tab on the search results page. And that uses the exact same thing where we have this privacy enhanced mode for the embedded video. But for the full experience, you’ll be able to get like the full distraction free watching that’s within our browsers. And that’s a free feature.Beah: Got it. Cool, do you have any favorite things personally about Duck Player?Omid: I have a five-year-old daughter. I think the example that you saw on the search was like a how to draw a Hello Kitty character video. And so exactly if there was a Spotify Wrapped for those video searches it’d be Hello Kitty, K-pop, Demon Hunters. But like I’m very conscious of the content and the amount of videos that my five year old is exposed to and watches. And so if you just loaded the YouTube homepage, you’re kind of inundated with like all these recommendations and different things that are thrown at you. And after you watch, when you’re watching a video, you have a side rail of all these videos. After you watch the video, it’s like, here’s more, or it’ll autoplay to the next one. And so if I’m just trying to show my daughter how to draw a Hello Kitty in a video, we load that in Duck Player. We watch only the video and it’s done. And it’s like the perfect use case for that.Beah: Nice. That’s a pretty good one. Tell me about have there been any particular challenges or surprises along the way as you’ve built Duck Player?Omid: I think the biggest challenge, it kind of continues to be a little bit of a challenge, is that not all, not 100% of videos can be viewed in Duck Player. If you’re a YouTube creator and you upload a video, there’s an option that you can say that you don’t want to allow your videos to be embedded, and that includes anywhere. So if someone was trying to add your video to their own website, they couldn’t do it, and Duck Player is included in that. And then there’s also some age-restricted content and the way that YouTube does age verification is you have to log in to your account to verify your age. And because it’s on an entirely separate domain that the privacy enhanced mode gets served from that kind of breaks the entire like privacy and personalization stuff. So there’s some small amount of videos that cannot be loaded in Duck Player for those reasons. We estimate it to be somewhere around like 3% ish on desktop. And it’s unfortunate, but we also allow people to go to YouTube and there’s a number of other use cases where you might want to go to YouTube to you know subscribe to the channel, like view the comments or something so it’s purely complementary to it and that was a challenge to communicate why people couldn’t watch those videos when that small amount does happen.Beah: Did we try any ways of getting around those limitations or just kind of there’s nothing you can do?Omid: Yeah, for the ones where it’s just not allowed to be embedded, there’s really nothing we can do. Another category is some YouTube bot detection. They do some pretty sophisticated things, we suspect, trying to determine if you’re a bot or not. And if some combination of those things get triggered, they’ll ask you to also log in to verify that you’re not a bot. And so we’ve tried to look into ways that we can try to get around some of that, too. But it’s really, really tricky and complicated. And so our messaging is right now to you can go to YouTube and watch it. And if there’s ways in the future we can improve that, we’ll certainly do it. But we’re trying to just at least communicate it really well to people so they understand what’s going on.Beah: Have you ever been submitting multiple Hello Kitty queries repeatedly and been blocked as a bot?Omid: I haven’t yet, if I was YouTube’s detection algorithm, I would probably flag that considering the volume.Beah: Yeah, yeah, I would flag that. Cool, okay. So tell me, like, are there anything, we launched the first version of Duck Player quite a while ago, like, anything significant that we’ve changed about it along the way?Omid: The biggest thing I would say is probably on mobile. We launched

In this episode, Gabriel (Founder) and Ewa (Product) discuss Search Assist, why we’re so focused on letting users control their experience, and future improvements. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Show notes: Learn more about the “More” button in Search Assist here. Gabriel Hello everybody, welcome to DuckTales. I’m Gabriel, founder of DuckDuckGo. With me is Ewa. You wanna introduce yourself, Ewa?Ewa Hi everyone, I’m Ewa Sobula. I’m a product person at DuckDuckGo based in Poland.Gabriel Cool, we are going to talk about search assist today. We’ve done one episode before when we introduced the more button. This is the stuff on the top of search results where our anonymous AI is answering queries for you and you can click more, but we’re gonna go take a step back and just kind of talk about the feature in general. ⁓ As a precursor, I’ve said this a bunch of times. at AI episodes, but ⁓ our guiding principles for AI features are that they’re useful, private, and optional. in this case, and I know people really appreciate that, ⁓ we think Search Assist is extremely useful, and we’ll get into that, but it is also optional. So you can turn it off if you like. It’s really easy to do so. There’s toggles actually within Search Assist itself, but also in the browser and search settings. And of course, it’s private like the rest of our search results. It’s completely anonymous. ⁓ So with that, yeah, let’s just jump from the highest level. What is Search Assist and how does it work?Ewa So as you mentioned, search assist is our AI generated instant answer to search queries that we show up on top of search results page. Once we are confident that this is gonna be the optimal answer to use a query, meaning for queries where you either ask a question or really are looking for a quick summary. And ⁓ we are now showing it on like roughly quarter of our searches and we are using LLMs to create the answer but what is important is that we actually grounded in the right sources and like verified and checked sources so it’s not like generated literally and just by an LLM but we find the relevant sources to the search query. we analyze them and we synthesize the concise one, two sentences also that we show on top of SERP when it’s really relevant. Or we also show like lower down the page where you might have different intent. ⁓ But still it could be useful if it’s something that you scroll down to.Gabriel Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ And I want to get into the, you mentioned it being concise and that’s one of the main differences I feel we have with Google and I want to get into a bunch of those. ⁓ before we do that, let’s continue with the basics. I so I actually started working on this feature. Maybe people think it was in reaction to Google or something, but it wasn’t. We actually started working on this as soon as Chat TV came out. ⁓ to really initially focus on Wikipedia and helping, know, giving people better Wikipedia answers, which you mentioned, search exists now appears in about 25 % of searches, Wikipedia appears around about 10%. So, and we had gotten lots of feedback over the years that, hey, it’d be great, you’re showing me the beginning of Wikipedia, but it’d be great if you could just show me the answer from Wikipedia. And we had tried that in different ways and we accomplished that somewhat, but until LMS came along where we could really pull back the paragraphs of Wikipedia and ask the LMP to pull out the answer within that paragraph, which is much better than just showing the paragraph and making you find it. We weren’t really able to unlock search assist. So yeah, we started working on it right when ChatGPD came out and kind of rushed to Wikipedia. And then I know you got involved later. when we started adding lots of other sources. And as you mentioned, we’re trying to use the best sources we can. ⁓ But I’d say more broadly, given that it’s kind of a broader thing than Wikipedia now, what do you see the problem that it’s solving in search results, just kind of for at large? Like you mentioned, sometimes you put it on top, sometimes you put it on the bottom. Obviously, that’s a choice. we’re putting on top because we think it’s solving a search problem,Ewa So think the key problem is that it’s short that we’re solving with assist is that it shortens the path from when you know what you want to ask and you formulate a query and to actually finding what you’re looking for. And to your point, we’ve already been doing Wikipedia or other modules in the past and we’re still doing them for many of the searches. But Assist allows us to cover more of these informational queries, including the long tail ones, meaning people use different language to ask Search Engine about what they’re looking for. And with Assist, we’ve been able to understand more of these natural language queries or queries that really ever are asked only once to a Search Engine, which is a huge portion of search queries. And, but we still can understand them and can present an answer that is like good enough to answer what you’re really looking for. But also with the more button that you’ve already mentioned also allows you to dig deeper and get more information on demand while still keeping you in the search engine context. In the context that a lot of people are familiar with because we’ve been using it for years, years, some of us ever since they were born. And so it’s kind of like bridges the gap between the value that LLMs bring and how they can enrich the experience of finding information ⁓ without having to move to a totally different user interface, to move to more like conversational chat experiences. It’s still search results that are familiar. It’s the search results that these answers are grounded for. but we’re making use of this technology to present it in a more suitable way for larger volume of different types people ask search engine.Gabriel Yeah, and so maybe I summarize that way. It really is saving people time. And I think as a primary benefit, I think as a secondary benefit in aligning with our vision of Raise a Standout Trust Online is that we’re trying to ⁓ understand what is the best information in the search results and surface that for you in a concise way. ⁓ So that not only saves you time, but it on average should be giving you better information higher up on the page, ⁓ which is kind of really what you want in a search engine. And just to restate for people who really don’t want AI, you can turn it off. However, this is not to your point earlier, AI making up the answer. This is us grounding the answer on actual search pages that were crawling in real time to look for that answer for you. And then the sources are ⁓ annotated there, which you can click through ⁓ and both check and read more information because we’re only giving you a concise summary. So if you want more, you click through. ⁓ So with that in mind, how you mentioned the more button in the UX before we kind of dive into kind of differences. ⁓ What is the general user reaction been like over time with search assist?Ewa ⁓ So we’ve been getting a lot of really positive reactions from our users. Assist has been like one of the highest rated parts of search experience historically at DuckDuckGo. And ⁓ I think what people usually appreciate is both that it saves time, it gives this concise answer. The fact that it’s really concise and it’s not like taking over your search experience is just there when you need it but still doesn’t make it hard to get to organics if that’s what you’re looking for. It’s another thing that people have appreciated. ability to drill down to sources, as you’ve mentioned, is also something we’ve heard been ⁓ getting like really good reception. And we are using the feedback we’re getting from people a lot in improving assist. On one hand, that’s because we really don’t track our users. We have very little information about how people interact with our search results. So we really rely on when people make effort to click thumbs up, click thumbs down, leave some additional comment. We use this information both in automated way to improve our answers and also we really do read through them and take lessons and figure out how we can continue improving assist, which is for instance how we’ve gotten the more button.Gabriel Yeah, I mean, so that seems like a big difference from Google right there for what it’s worth. I mean, I guess I’m not inside Google, so I don’t know, but from reading comments on Hacker News and other places, it does not necessarily seem like they read every piece of feedback, ⁓ but we actually do. And so ⁓ that really is a distinction. ⁓ We mentioned some others too. ⁓ So I mentioned that it was optional. I think we should clarify now that it’s not just you can turn it on or off, which you can. But you can also change the frequency of when search assist appears. We have often and sometimes, as well as on demand. So you can basically make it so it doesn’t show up automatically, but if you want to click on it, you can still click the search assist button on the underneath the search box and it’ll show just for when you want it on demand. And if you really, really don’t want it, including not even seeing that button on the page, you can ⁓ get rid of that. So that’s another one.Ewa Yes.Gabriel Another one that you mentioned, so the conciseness, I think, you know, does a couple things. One, it means that the less information there is, the less kind of surface area there is for making stuff up or getting stuff wrong. ⁓ But also, what you had just mentioned, it just takes up less space on the page. So I think some complaints that people have about Google’s A.O. overviews is they really are just taking up. You can’t see the organic links, they’re taking up too much of t

In this episode, Gabriel (Founder) and Joe (Policy team) discuss why we donate, the types of organizations we donate to, and some examples of impact. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Show notes: See our full list of donations here. Gabriel: Hello everybody, welcome back to DuckTales. I am Gabriel, the founder of DuckDuckGo. Today I have with me Joe, and we’re gonna talk about donations, but you want to start introducing Joe.Joe: Thanks Gabriel. ⁓ So I am the senior public policy manager for DuckDuckGo. ⁓ What does that mean? ⁓ It sort of means that ⁓ I’m sort of the person in DC who sort of tilts at windmills, talks to Congress, works with lawmakers, and otherwise tries to keep the rest of the company abreast of how the US government and states are ⁓ pushing different types of regulations, solving online privacy. ⁓ and trying to make the internet a better place for everybody.Gabriel: Cool, yeah, and there’s probably a lot of good feature episodes in all that, which is the main part of your A small of your job is you took over really running the process in which we make our donations every year. I realize it’s a small part of your job, but it’s important one, and I think important to our users, so you want to explain just kind of what that is?Joe: Yeah, no, and look, I guess I shouldn’t oversell it, but I actually think it’s a really impactful part of the job. ⁓ It’s really, I think, like, it’s both, and we can talk about this, humbling and satisfying to be able to sort of allocate money to causes that are out there to try and improve trust online. ⁓ I’m our, I guess our DRI, our directly responsible individual for our corporate donations. ⁓ And this has actually become a pretty elaborate internal process to look at a whole bunch of different organizations. Now, I already mentioned I’m in DC, so I think about civil society groups, the Electronic Frontier Foundations of the world. ⁓ But we actually, you know, we give to a whole lot of different entities and organizations, ⁓ you know, sort of open source technology groups, ⁓ online technology reporters. and other organizations that do really impactful journalism on technology and data privacy. ⁓ And so, you know, I think there’s always sort of a push and pull to try and convince you to give us more money to give out each year. ⁓ But, you know, we give out, you know, over a million dollars to, I think this year it was something like 29 different organizations. ⁓ And it’s a, you know, it’s a detailed process. We spend a lot of months just arguing amongst ourselves about how we should allocate that money. And we’re, you know, we have a bunch of different criteria for what goes into this. ⁓ But, you know, we’re trying to both provide impactful donations. And so that means we give to a lot of small groups. ⁓ We’re also trying to sort of ensure that, you know, these groups are not just like aligned with us on one or two things, but are really out there trying to make the internet a better place. I mean, you know, if anybody’s been watching DuckTales, I think everybody would realize that DuckTales Go is a pretty mission driven company. And we’ve got this goal of expanding trust online. And we can’t do that ourselves. And there are a lot of different entities out there in the United States and globally ⁓ that are playing a really important role making the internet more trustworthy. And so we’re constantly trying to find ⁓ new voices to elevate and new projects to support.Gabriel: Yeah, as completely slightly a tangent, but you mentioned it because this is inside dark echo. At dark echo, we have this concept of the DRI directly responsible individual. What that means is someone who owns something and. We have, as you might imagine, tons of processes internally, one of them being this art under nation’s process and every one of them has an owner. Um, and so, yeah, that’s just a little insight in baseball for us, but hundreds of those and Joe owns this process and it often gets handed, you know, over time that changes ownership, but, um, that really means taking ownership of it and kind of, um, driving it forward and seeing it to completion. Um,Joe: Thank you.Gabriel: But yeah, donations, I also see it as extremely key to our vision. So we actually started doing this a long time ago. ⁓ I think I have the, for anyone who wants to look at everything we’ve donated to, we have a page, ducktogo.com slash donations.Joe: Good, it’s good that you got the microsite out there, that’s important.Gabriel: I just went to it. Yeah. Yeah.Joe: YeahGabriel: lists, it literally lists everything we’ve donated to, you know, including this year, 2020, all the way back to, guess, the first year we did this was 2011, which is a long time ago. What I was going to say is directly related to what you said is that was right around the time when we, 2011 was the first year we had our first employee. It was me just before that. know, Cade came on and when we did that, that’s when we started laying out our vision, like explicitly our mission and vision. Um, and we, the vision in particular, rates of standard of trust online hasn’t changed since, and it’s not going to change, but it was, it was kind of tied to that. We always said, you know, We’re one company. I think it’s really like what you said. We can only do so much on our own. We have a much broader vision. How can we push that forward? Well, we can donate to other places that could really help. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was in service of, to another one of your points, of making a bigger impact.Joe: Okay.Gabriel: And so like my original thought was the dollar amounts at the very beginning were very small because we were very small and had no real revenues or profits. So there wasn’t ⁓ much to give, but we figured out, you know, we still put aside money to try to do so. ⁓ And so when we were doing that, and I think some of this is carried through to today, we were really trying to find organizations that could really do a lot with a small donation, you know, like, ⁓ and that might’ve been. project where an extra few thousand dollars could really help. And when it came to now, like maybe we give 25,000 or something and that enables somebody to ⁓ spin up a project or create a, someone part-time to on something. I think those are the kinds of things that can really make an impact. ⁓ I think the reason for doing the thematic ones early on is, you know, just concentrating the small amount of money we have into one thing and hoping to make an actual on that thing. ⁓ Now the dollar amounts are greater but we’re still picking themes it’s just probably three or four themes broadly in donations. I mean that’s the way I look at it. Yeah.Joe: Yeah, yeah. mean, I think now we pretty much are settled on, I would say, open technology or improving internet technology efforts, ⁓ data privacy. And then over the past few years, as we’ve been increasingly concerned about fair competition in digital markets, that’s become a bigger chuck. ⁓ But those are sort of the three buckets that think we’ve sort of narrowed in on, at least since I’ve been in charge of this.Gabriel: Yeah, and the process has evolved. Why don’t you take us through kind of the current bones of the process as it stands today.Joe: Yeah, that’s a good question. And I think actually a good opportunity to encourage folks to reach out if they want. you know, we like, there’s a couple of us internally that try to do a, some time over the year just sort of monitoring what groups are working on, ⁓ what they’re doing, whether it’s, ⁓ you know, basically sort of a subjective assessment of how impactful they are. ⁓ And then we have, I think it’s usually about a three month process that we kick off in you know, early summer to just sort of figure out like generally what are we interested in supporting over the year. And I think things that I think it’s worth highlighting that, you know, A, we’re a pretty community driven company. We’re also a team member driven company. I think it’s been really rewarding to have just ⁓ colleagues suggest, you know, organizations I had never heard of and that gets in there. So, you know, We are very much open to new ideas ⁓ and we support organizations globally, so I’m sure there’s plenty of things we have not heard of. So we create like a giant list of organizations and then we put it into a little bit of a rubric ⁓ and basically ask a number of questions about what we think the organization can do in the next year, ⁓ what actually would be impactful. Your point is totally valid. We’ve given money to support things like organizations being able to train up an employee. you know, think as you well know, like going from one to two employees can be hugely impactful for certain organizations. We’ve also, ⁓ you know, our support has allowed certain organizations to offer like health insurance to employees, which is not the, you know, really sort of makes you realize how, you know, some money can go a long way in things that are not just related to core, ⁓ you know, tech. projects, but literally people’s day-to-day well-being. ⁓ So we have this sort of rubric involved, and then we narrow it down. So part of the issue is we’d like to have a diverse, both geographic and ideologically diverse group of organizations. ⁓ We also sort of, at this point, have standardized our donation buckets a little bit. ⁓ we also like to keep a similar number of organizations. ⁓ You know, we started with, I think, six maybe, and we’re up to 29. And it becomes, and I think I’m one of these people, I’d love to give to every organization that exists, but that...Gabriel: And what are the buckets to you mentioned buckets like what kind of our bucketsJoe: yeah, yeah, that’s good question. ⁓ So ⁓ right now we sort of gi

In this episode, Beah (SVP, Product) and Zbig (Director, Talent) discuss our approach to hiring, and how it’s designed to reflect our unique, cross-functional and mostly async ways of working. Show notes: Check out our careers page and open positions here. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Beah: Hello. Hi, everyone. Welcome to DuckTales, ⁓ where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology, and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. In each episode, you’ll hear from employees about our vision, our product updates, our approach to AI, or how we operate as a company, which is the zone that today’s episode will fall in. ⁓Zbig: Okay.Beah: introduce myself briefly. I’m Beah Burger-Lenahan. I lead the product team here at DuckDuckGo. And we have with me Zbig. Hey Zbig, do want to introduce yourself?Zbig: Yeah, of course. Hi, Beah. Hi, everybody. I’m Zbig. I’m on the Talent Acquisition team. I’ve been around for almost seven years now at DuckDuckGo, and I feel very privileged to have seen this amazing journey of us scaling the team from about 50 to over 350, where we are right now and I’m super excited to be here and talk about hiring.Beah: Awesome, thanks, the big. Yeah, so today we’re gonna talk about how we hire, what that process looks like, why, and so forth. Hopefully it’ll be interesting to everyone. ⁓ So maybe just to get started, can you kind of lay out at like the highest levels of our approach to hiring, what that process looks like?Zbig: course. Yeah. So I think at a, at a highest level, um, there is, you know, lot of intentionality and discipline to how we hire. So we would do that only when we have like a really clear and well articulated need. So when we’re scoping roles, right? Like we would want to deeply understand what the actual tangible problems are that we want that particular role to solve for us. And then we designed the hiring process to test for the skills, the competencies that are critical to being able to do that. So in practice, that means that we base that hiring process ⁓ largely on test projects ⁓ rather than interviews. Well, there are usually a couple of interviews in every process, but we definitely attach way more weight to test projects. We also tried to design that hiring process in way that ⁓ it’s truly like a two-way street and allows Canada to discover how we work. So, you know, they can make a well-informed decision at the end about whether or not this is good place for them. And I think one other thing worth highlighting ⁓ that comes out of this intentionality and discipline is the fact that, you know, never in the company history, we were forced to do any group layoffs. And when you look at the tech market these days, that’s very rare.Beah: Yeah, because we only hire people that we know we really need.Zbig: that will really advance the goals of the company, right?Beah: Yeah, got it. Okay, thanks. So let’s talk about the projects since they are, as you said, kind of the core of our process. Are these projects, do we expect people to do them for free?Zbig: Sure. Yeah. No, we offer payment, which is kind of like average bubbly, but it’s usually like anything from 50 to 100 US dollars per an estimated hour of work required to complete a project. These are, and this is just like recognize the time candidates put into those. These projects are always role specific and designed to simulate the actual work one would be doing on the job. You can complete them async on your own time. And I truly believe that allows candidates to demonstrate the best of their abilities without the typical pressure and stress of interviews. And also like when you think of the async format, that much more closely reflects how we work on a daily basis at DuckDuck. Because I think that probably like, I don’t know, 70, 80 % of collaboration here happens asynchronously. There are a few meetings throughout the week. And ⁓ we’ve picked this format for the hiring process very intentionally. There’s actual research behind that that proves that work samples, test projects that are role specific, they’re much less prone to bias and error than interviews. And what we found through that ⁓ is that they are great predictors of future success on the job. And when you look at our retention rate, that’s 95%. You know, our engagement scores are also very high, like I think 86 % way above market benchmarks for companies of our size and at our stage of growth. like there’s actual, you know, quantitative validation that this approach works very well for us.Beah: Yeah, is it challenging to get people to commit to doing these projects? It can be a bit of time.Zbig: It is one of the bigger challenges of our hiring process because these test projects can take anything from like three, four hours up to 15 and in some cases maybe 20. And we typically expect folks to complete two of those, two sometimes three. So that’s like a time investment of about 25, 30 hours in test projects. I think we do our best to really to adjust to Canada’s availability. There’s like from our side, there’s no pressure on like when exactly they should be starting on those. They can plan ahead, set that time aside. If they need an extension, they can just let us know. And we usually have no problem to grant that because we understand that different things can come up in life that could derail their plans. So So we really try to adjust our pacing to candidates, be very flexible with those timeframes to ⁓ make it feasible for them.Beah: Got it. I’m shifting gears a little bit. So where do we hire in the world and why?Zbig: Hmm. So we hire globally though, not everywhere. We have like a selection of countries where that we’ve decided scale to based on like ⁓ a pretty nuanced estimate on the available town pools, how those relate to our needs, ⁓ how easy it is also to like scale within them from the administrative financial logistics perspective, perspectives, but we are able to hire across tens of countries around the the globe. And I think that’s awesome because that gives us access to amazing talent ⁓ that often when you think of some of these countries, there aren’t that many opportunities to work on something of a comparable scale that Go offers. So we’re way more competitive there, right? And we’re truly... I’m actually in Krakow in Poland and we have a pretty pretty big contingent here, like I think one of the fourth, fifth biggest representations geographically across the company with over 20 people. yeah, there’s definitely a great advantage of this remote setup that enables that. ⁓ And I think also what makes it possible is the fact that as a company, we’re designed from ground up for full remote collaboration, right? When you think of the companies that were switching to remote during the pandemic, that often didn’t work out and many of them are now calling people to go back to the office because they didn’t really have the right processes and culture to enable effective collaboration. I think that’s definitely not the case here.Beah: Where are you located today?Zbig:Beah: Yeah. Yeah. I will say, mean, the remote ⁓ employee base has challenges for sure, and it has a lot of upsides as well. I think for me, like one kind of just fun perk of it is that it’s cool to know people from all over the world. ⁓Zbig: yeah, for sure.Beah: you know, when I think about like traveling I think, ooh, like who can I go see?Zbig: Yeah. And also when you think of like, we’re building a global product or a set of global products, right? And I think it’s invaluable to have people from different geographies representing different cultures and perspective, because that helps us inform like how we can be building those products for a broader audience that really ⁓ meets their needs and solves jobs for them.Beah: Yeah, makes sense. So you mentioned ⁓ one of the challenges of our hiring process is getting people to commit the time to the projects. Are there any other significant challenges?Zbig: Mm. Yeah. I think the probably the biggest one is related to how we work. Cause as you know, we’re pretty uniquely organized over here. There’s no middle management. There’s no like separate project management function. And in practice, that means that everybody really is expected to be able to scope, propose and execute projects. Sometimes that means, you know, managing a cross-functional project team and that skillset is not that easy to get on top of the functional expertise, Like functional competencies. So ⁓ we often end up hiring, you know, we do most of our hiring in engineering and at a senior individual contributor level, like senior engineer, and we often end up hiring folks, you know, performing these like more senior leadership related responsibilities elsewhere, sometimes even like holding more senior titles than what, we have on the job description. Disclaimer though, don’t use job titles internally. We don’t want them to get out of picking the best solution or going in the most optimal route. We try not to make decisions based on authority. And that’s worked well for us, I think, over the years.Beah: . . I’m curious. I’ve never asked you this question or I don’t know the answer. Do candidates find it appealing that we don’t use titles internally or does it put some people off?Zbig: Thank I think many of them, I think many of them do, and they do highlight, well, we get a lot of that feedback from candidates in the hiring process, but some of them do raise it as an objection. And I get it. you know, I think typically on the market, there’s a lot of weight attached to job titles, right? Because they demonstrate certain progression throughout one’s career. And some candidates decide not to give that up, which I totally get, right? Like if someone is already

In this episode, Beah (Product) and Max (Frontend) discuss cookie pop-up protection, why our solution is uniquely private, and the feedback loops we use to help us reject cookies across more of the sites you visit. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Beah: Hello and welcome to DuckTales where we go behind the scenes with DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. In each episode, you’ll hear from employees ⁓ about our vision, product updates and our approach to AI or how we operate as a company. In this case, today we’re going to be talking about a feature that I dearly love.⁓ cookie pop-up protection with ⁓ Max here. So let me just do some quick introductions, I guess, before I’m kind of getting a little ahead of myself. I’m Bea Berger-Lenahan. I lead the product team here at Tech Tech Go. And I’m going to be asking Max a few questions. Max, would you like to introduce yourself?Max: Yeah, sure. Hey, ⁓ my name is Max. I am an engineer in the front-end team at DuckDuckGo. Been here for about three years, a little more. Yeah, I’m excited to talk about cookie pop-up protection.Beah: Awesome. Thank you, Max. We’re glad you’re here. I’m glad you’re here. ⁓ So first, just tell me, tell all of us a little bit about what cookie pop-up protection is, how it works.Max: Yeah, so this is the ⁓ feature in our browsers that handles cookie pop-up for you. ⁓ And in a nutshell, it... ⁓ that’s a good question. ⁓ I mean, I think most people have seen a cookie pop-up, but yeah, the definitions vary, but we’re talking about these...Beah: What’s a cookie pop-up first? HahahaMax: dialogues that websites show you on the first visit that typically tell you something about their data sharing practices and the use of cookies and similar technologies. And sometimes they give you a way to opt out of some optional tracking ⁓ or cookies. And that’s what we’re actually doing. We’re automating, ⁓ basically clicking reject buttons for you or whatever it takes to...toggle all these little checkboxes and saving the settings. ⁓ I could demo it if that’s okay. ⁓ So let me share my screen. ⁓Beah: That’d be great.Max: So for the sake of the demo, I’ve disabled the feature in the settings right now. It’s enabled by default, ⁓ but I’m just going to show you. ⁓ So if we go to Sky Scanner, for example, and I’m in the Netherlands, so you see a Dutch version, but there is this huge cookie pop-up ⁓ when you load the page. And if I enable the feature, cookie pop-up protection and reload the page, you’re not gonna see this pop up anymore. And what happened, and then there will be a ⁓ little notification in the address bar. And if you drill down, you’ll see the explanationBeah: Okay. Okay.Max: what happened. But basically what happened behind the scenes is we clicked on the reject button rejecting the cookies automatically. And that’s why we call it cookie pop-up protection. ⁓ So for us, this is a privacy protection feature because it actually ⁓ chooses the most private option for you, which is not always easy. Let’s see.Beah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know if we have data on this, but I imagine very few people are willing to go into, you know, click the option to actually adjust ⁓ settings and start toggling things on and off on the regular.Max: Yeah, ⁓ that’s for sure. So ⁓ some pop-ups can be really tricky to opt out. ⁓ You would need to go to click, Settings and then toggle a bunch of check boxes and then click Save. This can become... Like most people, think they just click Accept button. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, this is of course not good for your privacy. ⁓ So we help...Beah: Yeah.Max: getting through these dark patterns.Beah: Yeah, makes sense. why did we build this? What’s the origin story?Max: Yeah, so ⁓ like many other features that go, it started as like a hack project, which is when someone goes in and tries to tackle the problem in a couple of days. And ⁓ of course, cookie pop-ups are universally annoying and wanted to do something about it. ⁓ And we built some prototypes. And then eventually we built a feature on top of a ⁓ prior work of my colleague, Sam Macbeth, who... ⁓ So we have an open source library that does most of the ⁓ things that we... ⁓ And we ⁓ use it and it powers all our... ⁓ This feature in all our browsers.Beah: Nice. ⁓ Max, did I cut off your demo? Did you want to show anything else there?Max: No, I’m trying to stop presenting it just doesn’t work. I’m clicking the buttonBeah: Oh, okay. Alright, I was just worried I cut you off. Alright, we’ll see if it responds at some point. So, okay, so just to recap, ooh, there it goes, okay. Just to recap, we are a, removing the annoyance of you’re like trying to go to Skyscanner, I don’t know what that is, you’re trying to go to Skyscanner and instead of getting whatever it is that’s on Skyscanner, you’re getting this big like notification in your face, we’re making that go away and we’re going in and we’re changing the settings to be more privacy respecting. That sounds great. What’s the downside?Max: Correct. And that’s, so like ⁓ this ⁓ approach actually is actually quite intentional, right? So as I mentioned this, we’re trying to maximize user privacy and ⁓ because there are other solutions on the market that do like ranging from clicking accept button, which is not acceptable for us. But also ⁓ there’s another approach of like preventing the interaction. And for us, this was very important to do it this way, to actually actively opt out because, well, first of all, ⁓ this is like the only way to opt out of ⁓ server side tracking we know of. ⁓ the second, it gives a clear signal to the website through the official channels.Max: And then finally, in some legislations, it’s actually the only way to opt out. So for example, in California, they can sell your data by default unless you click on the button. So ⁓ yeah, we think that as long as the site is compliant with the law, this approach is better for privacy. ⁓ And if it’s not compliant, we still have our tracker blocking and other privacy protections to fall back to. And so this is of course, so speaking of challenges, ⁓ this is a bit more involved than just, you know, blocking some requests to or blocking the pop-ups from loading. ⁓And so it needs a bit more effort because we actually need to automate each and every pop-up vendor. So it takes a bit more effort. But yeah, this is something we chose to do. I think we, for a while now, we’ve covered most of the, all of the major pop-up vendors, which is like 80, 90 % of top sites in Europe and the US.Beah: So that’s roughly the percent of cookie pop-ups that we think we’re successfully blocking at this point.Max: Yes, so that is 80 or 90 % of all pop-ups that you see on the top sites are handled. And one of the biggest challenges is this long tail of sites, because of course, no one visits just the top sites. And like, each of us has this one site that no one else visits.Beah: Mm-hmm. Okay.Max: And yeah, this is something we’ve been focusing on lately. We’re trying to ⁓ experiment in with automated approaches and using AI as well. And we’ve had some good success in the past months with it. So I think we’re gonna ramp up the this long tail coverage in the coming weeks and months. Yeah, andBeah: And how are you finding those? Do you want to talk about like how your finding those sites, which includes internal reporting, right?Max: Yeah, so we have a few different ⁓ feedback loops, as I say. of course, we have ⁓ our own crawling. So we ⁓ regularly crawl top sites ⁓ and trying to detect new pop-ups and handle them. ⁓ Then we have user reports, ⁓ breakage reports, and just user feedback reports. that we have special systems that filter out and surface the reports related to cookie pop-ups. And we also have very active internal reporting, which is DuckDuckGo employees who go above and beyond and just report new sites to us. is a very important source of feedback because we can get back to those people and verify.Beah: Who’s the number one reporter of cookie pop us.Max: the number one is Gabe. ⁓ So our CEO, he’s like, I think it’s fair to say that half of all the internal reports come from him. I have no idea how he does it.Beah: Hahaha I know. Yeah, sometimes I think maybe I can catch him, but I don’t know. I don’t know that I can. ⁓ So if a user watching this encounters a cookie pop-up, what should they do? How should they report it?Max: Yeah.⁓ So it depends on what kind of user there are. Like the easiest thing would be to send the feedback through the app. We have this ⁓ feature. Or if something actually doesn’t work, then feel free to send the breakage report, site breakage report at this. But if you’re actually a developer, thenThis whole thing is open source. And we welcome external contributions. You can go to GitHub, ⁓ find this library, called AutoConsent, and file some issues or even pull requests. This is always welcome. And we’ve had some external contributions before ⁓ from also other companies who are using this library. It’s not only ⁓ used in DuckDuckGo apps. ⁓ So yeah, if you’re that person, we’ll be happy to.Beah: Nice. So to recap, have to be, you only get this feature if you’re using our browser. If you’re using search and you click in another browser and you click on a search result and you land on a page with a cookie pop-up, we can’t really do anything to help you there, much as we’d love to. So you got to install our browser. But if you are using our browser on mobile or desktop, you can go into the menu and there’s a send feedback button and That’s a good way, like we actually read those, so please do send that feedback and we will try to fix it.Max: Yes, that’s right. So make sure to mention clearly that this is about cookie pop-up not being

In this episode, Gabriel (Founder) and Chris (Subscription team) discuss why we built the DuckDuckGo Subscription, its four features, and how it protects more of what you do online. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Show notes: Learn more about the DuckDuckGo Subscription here. Gabriel: Hello everybody. Welcome back to DuckTales, everything DuckTale go. I’m Gabriel, founder, CEO. I got with me Chris. Do want to introduce yourself?Chris: Yeah, hi, I’m Chris Calvi, ⁓ long time listener, first time caller. Had to say that. ⁓ But ⁓ I’ve been at DuckDuckGo for a little over four years. I’m on the partnerships team here. And ⁓ I guess I’ll take a second to talk about the partnerships team, what we are. ⁓ We are primarily the team that handles all of the relationships with third party companies that DuckDuckGo works with.Chris: We’re a relatively small team, about 10 people. you know, classic examples of companies that we’d be working with are any of the live information that you’re seeing when you search DuckDuckGo. So that would be like sports scores or stock quotes, weather, that sort of information, also like flights and lyrics, all of those relationships, we get that information, we license it from...from other companies. that would be an example of work we would be doing. And then also, we will even work on things like infrastructure partnerships with cloud partners and AI companies and all that stuff. So that’s what we do over here at Partnerships more recently.Gabriel: Interestingly though, the way we work, and this gets more inside deck to go since the name of our blog on this, we don’t really work functionally though. We have objectives inside the company to get a particular thing done, and that thing usually involves many different functional teams. What that also means is those objectives have owners and they can be from any functional team. ⁓You tell me how you think of that, but I think if you do what doing recently actually was not very partnershipy. You’ve been helping launch different parts of our Dr. Go subscription, which involves some partnerships, but like your day-to-day job is not always partnership related.Chris: Yeah, mean, absolutely. And I think you as people, if they listen to a bunch of these episodes, they’ll see that. People might be leading an objective and they’re on the design team or in this case, the partnership team. A lot of times it is somebody from the product team. And in this case, I’m working a little closer on the product side. So you’re right.Gabriel: And yeah, so we’re going to talk today a little bit more deeply because you’ve been working on it about the DuckDuckGo subscription. We’ve mentioned it on some of these episodes, but haven’t really given a big overview. So that’s what this is going to be. The subscription is a bundle. So it’s got a bunch of different things in it, which maybe you can get an overview in a second. But just to say that we might have separate episodes about going deep into some⁓ One of those things are a technical aspect to them, but this is we can give more of an overview of kind of where it came from and what it exists today and kind of where we’re headed with it. You want to start and just tell us kind of like what’s in it and how it works.Chris: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds good. The DuckDuckGo subscription is a relatively new thing for us. We launched this in April of 2024, so it’s really only been around for a year and a half compared to the search product, for instance, that’s been around for a very long time. And what it does is really, I mean, in a nutshell, it supercharges some of the existing functionality you have. It gives you extra privacy features within your DuckDuckGo ⁓ app and experience. ⁓ It does a little beyond that too, which we’ll talk about, but that’s the key thing. ⁓ The other thing I will note is that if for long time subscribers, you may have originally remembered it being called Privacy Pro. That was the original name for it. We recently just changed it to DuckDuckGo subscription for to keep things simple. So we’ll call it the subscription for the rest of the episode. ⁓ But before I like...Gabriel: Yeah, give us the basics. yeah, what’s in it? Yeah.Chris: Yeah, the basic things, the four basic things in there are the, you got the VPN, which we’ll talk about what that is in a second. You get access to advanced AI models within Duck AI. You ⁓ get personal information removal, which I’ll talk about what that is, as well as identity theft restoration. But before I go down all that, I did want to ask back to you about ⁓ why we came up with a subscription. and then I’ll kind of unpack each of those core pieces.Gabriel: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the way I think about it more broadly is we want to be your clean internet experience. Like if you want a more protected way to operate online where you’re not getting followed by ads and you’re not giving up your personal information, you kind of adopt the DuckDuckGo ecosystem. And so that’s our browser, it’s our search engine, it’s our AI product. And generally we want to offer those essentially for free. mean, there’s advertising model in the search engine that pays for this, but we can, we want to give it for free in the sense that mo because more people can use it around the world. However, there are certain protections that costs us a lot of money to do that we hadn’t been able to offer because of that. So VPN is the obvious, a canonical example there, because when you turn on the VPN, now all your bandwidth is running through that VPN and a lot of that’s video. ⁓ And it’s just not something that can be advertising supported. doesn’t, the numbers don’t add up. And so we’ve wanted to offer that because it is a key part of being fully protected for people who want that kind of fuller protection, but we couldn’t offer it for free. And so we needed a subscription. At that point, I thought, hey, we could just offer a VPN, but...I think there are other things in this category that have real marginal cost in business terms. ⁓ And it would be great if we could bundle them all together at one low price and allow DuckDuckGo users who really want more protection ⁓ to be able to get it in one place. You don’t have to sign up for multiple things. And that’s where the subscription came from. ⁓ I think we’re living up to that. hope over time we add more and more things and make it more and more valuable without increasing the price or much at all. ⁓ But yeah, that’s where it came from.Chris: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me. to dive into the four pieces of functionality, I’ll start with VPN, because you mentioned that. We probably should give a little bit of a high level of what a VPN is. So it stands for virtual private network. But what that means is that we basically have this anonymous private secure no logs VPN server that’s sitting out there, right? And we have these in 40 locations around the world. You likely are connecting to the one closest to you, but you can change it to go to another country. But what it does is all of your internet traffic, the requests that you’re making to, for instance, as you browse the web, are gonna be securely essentially tunneled through that server and then sent out to the resource where you’re requesting that information. So the website that you’re accessing,they’re not going to see, under normal conditions, without a VPN, they would see your IP address. In this case, they’re going to see the DuckDuckGo server’s IP address, which is meaningless, essentially, to them from a privacy perspective. So it preserves your privacy on that front. then they’re sending that information back, and then it’s coming back to you. So then the second place where it’s adding privacy is on your own, sort of like your internet connection. So if you’re...⁓ you’re making that request in a lot of cases your internet provider or if you’re using like a public Wi-Fi, they can see the sites that you are accessing and sometimes can see the information that’s coming back and forth. And in this case where it’s that since it’s all being encrypted and coming through the duck, going to DuckDuckGo server first, they’re only seeing that you’re connecting to this one server and that they’re not seeing any of the data in between. So it gives you sort of that two different protections when you use a VPN. I don’t know if I’ve done it justice.Chris: Yeah, I think you did a great job there. The only thing I would add to that is, yeah, so it really shields your IP address and other information from leaking to both your internet provider and the sites that you’re visiting, as well as all the places in between too. People may not realize like when you route across the internet, you connect to something and then you connect to like a bunch of different hops in between lots of other internet providers. And it shields not only from the end points, but everything in between.⁓ Additionally, the IP address is often used to get your location. ⁓ And so by effectively shielding your IP address, you’re effectively shielding your location. And the final thing I would add is like, it may seem esoteric, like do I need to shield this stuff from these people? ⁓ But it’s been well documented that ISPs, internet providers are selling this data all the time. ⁓ And so...If you want to be maxing protected, you do want to have the VPN. ⁓ And you know, I leave it on all the time, our VPN. The other thing, the final thing I would add, which you know, doesn’t relate to the privacy necessarily, but it kind of relates to it in the sense that trusting us is that we decided not to sub license this VPN or anything from anybody else. We are operate, we made this from scratch. We’re operating all the servers ourselves. ⁓ And so it’s fully DuckDuckGo operated.Ch

In this episode, Cristina (SVP, Marketing) and Chuck (Front‑end) discuss private marketing at DuckDuckGo, from making decisions with less data to the role of privacy engineers in marketing projects.Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Cristina: Hi, and welcome to DuckTales, where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology, and people that help build privacy tools for everyone. In each episode, you’ll hear from employees about our vision, product updates, engineering approach to AI, or how we operate as a company. Today, we’re going to chat about how most companies collect a ton of information through their marketing activities and how DuckDuckGo, given our privacy policy of we don’t track you, do things like attribution very differently.I’m Cristina, I’m on the marketing team, and today I’ll be interviewing Chuck. Chuck, you wear a lot of different hats. Can you introduce yourself and some of what you work on?Chuck: Sure. ⁓ I am technically on the front end team and work on the front end of our search projects, our products, and our subscription products. ⁓ But I ultimately do whatever I need to do to get the job done, which is kind of our DuckDuckGo ethos. I do some product management, some data science, back end engineering. I work with the marketers. It’s fun. ⁓ And I need access. So getting to where lots of them is.Cristina: Hahaha. Fair enough. Well, thank you. So much like our product philosophy, privacy is core to the ethos of our marketing. There are so many common practices we don’t do, identifying and targeting individual users, retargeting, using behavioral data, using third party cookies and pixels, the list goes on. And we’ve also declined working with a lot of vendors because they don’t meet our privacy standards. As a consumer, that’s something I really appreciate.But frankly, as a marketer, it makes the job very hard. But it’s getting a bit easier thanks to work from people like Chuck, which is why I was so excited to talk to you today. So Chuck, when you first started working with the marketing team, what was your reaction to our limitations and what we were hoping to achieve?Chuck: Honestly, I was a little shocked. ⁓ There’s a pretty well-understood playbook for how marketing in a space like this should look. A playbook of tactics and tools that are well-understood. And every company will do it differently, and every brand and product will have their own personality. But we pretty much use none of those tools.Cristina: Yeah, can you help people understand what the industry norms are for marketing attribution and data and how we do it differently?Chuck: So when you visit your favorite social media site and it’s trying to decide how to fill the ad slot in your feed, the ad platform will take what it knows about you as a person, your search history, who you follow, and what it knows about your situation, like where you are and who you’re with, and line it up with their ad inventory. They’ll do some very complex math to determine the perfect ad to show you that will maximize profits for the platform and the advertiser. So the more better data they have about you, the better they can target the ads and the more money they can make.I know that’s something you’ve talked about with Peter on a previous episode, that the financial incentive for the trackers that are ubiquitous online is data that feeds the machine that helps them make more money off of your ad space. That entire ecosystem just flies in the face of our privacy principles. In fact, some of our apps will block those trackers to keep your browsing private. So when we advertise, we refuse to use those tools like you just listed that are common in digital marketing, like retargeting or reporting different types of conversions after the ad click. ⁓ just to protect the privacy of our users. Instead, we’ll collect limited data only when there’s a very clear and urgent rationale for it. And when we do, we’re transparent about what we collect and how we use it. And we’re possibly most important. We’re really careful never to let those logs link two different events to the same person. That’s really difficult to do. ⁓ We have a really fantastic privacy engineering team that reviews every project and their implementation to make sure that the work we’re doing is aligning with our principles.I’ve also gotten really comfortable making decisions with just the imperfect or incomplete data, trying to identify the solutions that meet 80 % of the business needs without, with 20 % of like the potential input.Cristina: Yeah, it feels like a lot less than 20 % of what’s actually available to us. Well, yeah. So thank you for unpacking that. That’s a helpful foundation. Can you go a bit deeper and talk about what that looks like in practice at DuckDuckGo?Chuck: Yeah. That’s probably fair.Yeah, so we largely ⁓ don’t work with other vendors ⁓ in the marketing space and rely on the tools we own and build ourselves instead. That makes sure that we aren’t incidentally feeding the machine with our own users’ data, which is really easy to do if you’re not careful. ⁓ We have a couple of tools in our toolbox, too. We’ll do as much summarization and analysis of data locally before we ever send it back. So rather than saying that a user of our browser searches15 times in a day and ⁓ sending 15 different events for those searches, we’ll send a periodic report that will say they searched 15 times during that day. We’ll reduce the precision of those signals even further. So instead of saying that that person made 15 searches, we’ll say they’re a medium volume search user. And then when we do our analysis on an ad campaign, we’ll look at the summaries of the data rather than the raw data ⁓ so that we’re looking across our users rather than the individual humans.And if it comes down to it, we are willing to redact data that might be too identifying for a person, whether it might contain PII or if it looks too unique and may be able to be traceable back to a person, we’d rather delete it and not use it than jeopardize that person’s privacy.Cristina: Well, thank you for ⁓ sharing how our ethos really comes to life there. And I’d love for you to touch on one of your claims to fame at DuckDuckGo, which is creating a better, more privacy-respecting system that we call Origin. Can you talk about how you got the idea and how you brought it to life?Chuck: Yeah, so we were struggling to run small scale campaigns that test new ad platforms or creatives. ⁓ With the tools that we have, the only way that we could do that without jeopardizing user privacy is to run big, broad, expensive, scaled campaigns. But we’re a small company. We want to move nimbly. And that made it really difficult for us to quickly validate our direction and make sure that we were dedicating our resources in the right time or in the right place. So I spent some time with our marketing leaders, including you, Cristina. ⁓trying to understand the norms and the challenges they were facing, the tools that weren’t in their toolbox. And I brought that to the privacy team. ⁓ We worked backwards, starting with user privacy as a first principle to the business goals and landed on a solution that kind of looks like this. ⁓ You see an ad and you click on it for DuckDuckGo and you install our app from it. When that app first runs, we will send one signal that says that you installed the app from that ad in that location.And then once a day, we’ll build a summary of those signals that give us pretty coarse insights that say, you know, we had 10 users install our app from that ad on that ad platform on that day. Then we’ll line that data up with other information that the ad platform gives us, like how many impressions there were of the ad and how many times it was clicked and how much that cost us. And that’ll give us some high level insights we can use to start making decisions, like how much it costs us to ⁓ per install from that ad. There’s nothing groundbreaking here technologically.It’s actually intentionally very simple and that helps us maintain the privacy properties because we have a high elevation view of everything that’s happening. We never share data outside of DuckDuckGo, so we aren’t feeding that machine. There are never person level insights. We’re looking at broad signals across our audiences. There’s no risk of PII and we’re only collecting the data that we need to make those decisions, nothing more. But it still lets our marketing team make informed decisions while working quickly and doing their jobs well.Cristina: Well, thank you. ⁓ More importantly, thank you for the months and months of work you did on that. ⁓ You say it’s nothing revolutionary, but actually, I think it’s a pretty novel approach. We don’t know of any other companies using technology like this. Typically, they use the entire suite of tools available to them. ⁓ But hopefully, one day, it won’t feel like such a novel approach, and this will become more of the industry standard. At least my naive perspective can hope for that.Chuck: Of course. I hope so. We’ll see if capitalism agrees with this.Cristina: So any parting thoughts you’d like to leave on the future of privacy respecting marketing?Chuck: One of the things that I really love about and appreciate about DuckDuckGo is the example that we set for other companies. ⁓ On the search engine side, could we collect data at massive scale and hyper-target ads to our users? Absolutely, but we don’t need to. And we love being an example of a sustainable business that respects user privacy in their searches. And I like to overlay that to our marketing efforts too. Would we benefit by using really invasive tracking like the industry standards? Yeah, probably, but we don’t need to.We’re a good examp

In this episode, Gabriel (Founder) and Esteban (Design) discuss AI chat organization, from automatic chat naming to ‘pinning’ your most used chats. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Gabriel: Hello, welcome to DuckTales. Inside DuckDuckGo features people, et cetera. You got me as the host again, this time I’m the founder and CEO of DuckDuckGo. And I got Esteban with me today. Esteban, wanna introduce yourself?Esteban: Sure. Hi everyone. I’m Esteban. Hi Gabriel. Esteban, I’m a designer in the team.Gabriel: Sweet. And that’s what we’re talking about today, Duck AI, and in particular, kind of new features we’ve been introducing around conversation organization that Estevan has been designing and working on. And we’ve been releasing kind of a few of these over the last couple of months. You want to just jump in, you want to share your screen and walk us through it. I realize we have some of this on audio now only.Esteban: Sure.Gabriel: Let’s also try to describe what we’re seeing while we do it. I’ll do the same thing.Esteban: Yes, for sure. Let me just share my screen and I’ll walk you through a few of the things that we recently dumped. Yes, so if you’re like me, you have tons of like conversations going on at the same time. What we have seen from users is that people who are very engaged with our platform, they end up having tons of conversations and then sometimes it’s harder to get back to them and to find the one that you needed. So we launched three things. The first one, I’ll show you an example. I was trying to see if I should ask you for a promotion during this podcast. Clearly no. ⁓ But the cool thing was that we, yeah, I will wait for a better time. ⁓ The first thing that we shipped was that we had ⁓ a title, the title of our,Gabriel: Good answer.Esteban: Chats were basically the same first prompt. It was just duplicated. That would make it harder to read. So the first thing that we launched was this automatic titling. We’re using the LLM to come up with a better title at the top. So it’s easier to find. ⁓Gabriel: So this is similar to how ChatGPT and some other competitors are doing it, right? So like we used to do just to repeat, so I understand fully, I think I do, ⁓ having reviewed this when it launched, but just to make sure. ⁓ Yeah, we used to just literally repeat the prompt as your title, like the beginning of the prompt. And so that it was kind of weird sometimes and duplicated sometimes, but now we run in the background something that... ⁓Esteban: Definitely Right.Yeah.Gabriel: Summarizes it for you and then automatically does this. You don’t have to do anything, right?Esteban: Yes. Exactly. And for example, I’m trying a new one. What day is today? That’s my prompt. And then immediately what I get as a title is day to day. The one thing is that sometimes the title is not exactly what you will call it. Like maybe day to day is not super descriptive. So we added this minor option, no? So we can say, I don’t know, day to day, it’s Thursday. Simple but useful.Gabriel: So if you want to do whatever you want, yeah, like if you don’t like our casing or something, you can put everything in lowercase or whatever, you can just rename it at will, yeah.Esteban: Yeah. Exactly. Yes, so after you have you want to name stuff, it’s very helpful when you have like several chats about something similar, but you want to have it personalized so it’s easier to find. So super simple, nothing that I don’t know, it’s blowing innovation in a way, but very useful. The second one is we noticed how ⁓ lots of our users were asking us for ways to save conversations and finding the conversations faster. We also have a limit of how many conversations you can have right now. There’s just 30 chats after the 30th chat. The next one gets deleted. We’re working on that, but we wanted to offer a way for you to say what’s important for you and why are the things that you want to come back to it. So I don’t know, this one. Let’s say it’s something that I was working on today, but I want to come back to it.add it to the top of the list by pinning it. So now it’s pinned at the top and it will always be there. That also means that if DocAI needs to delete one of your chats, it will go to the last one on the list and this one will not get deleted. You can pin up to five chats right now and yeah, it’s always accessible, always at the top, easy to reach.Gabriel: Got it, so it’s kind of the equivalent of like a favorite or a star or a pin in this case. All of these things are accessible from this three dot hover menu next to the ⁓ chat, chat to the individual chat. And then also you’re saying, is good, that ⁓ because the reason why we have the 30 limit at the moment is because all this is stored locally on your browser. It’s not actually stored on our servers. ⁓Esteban: Exactly.Gabriel: we’re working on an encrypted storage that we won’t have the keys to where you can get a much higher limits on it. But at the moment, or if you just want to keep it local, there is a local limit because your browser has storage limits. ⁓ But what this will allow you to do is keep ones around that you really want around, right? So you’re saying if you favorite these or pin them, in our words here, you have a pin section at the top. But if you start making a lot of chats, the non-pin ones will get.Esteban: second.Gabriel: kind of blown away first.Esteban: Exactly. Exactly. ⁓ We have plenty of requests about chat organization and some people are going as far as like, want to create projects, want to create groups, I want to organize my stuff, which it all makes total sense. And I guess up to a point you need those sort of organization tools, but the simple ones will cover most of the needs for most of our users, I would say, because maybe you have a few chats where you keep coming back to them, but then you have a bunch of quick requests, quick checkups with the LLM.And something like this is super simple. It doesn’t require a lot of effort. And yeah, we hope it helps a lot of our users.Gabriel: And you mentioned in there a few times like we did this and we’re working on this, these features in particular because we get a lot of user requests for them. ⁓ So speaking to that a little bit, like my understanding is, you know, we get lots of feedback. ⁓ We’re looking through it all and kind of organizing it, like which are the most like important issues to work on. But then also when we launch features, cause to your point, people ask for all sorts of different things. And then we, and like you in particular, design. And you’re like, well, I think this is gonna be a satisfaction of a lot of people’s requests, even if that’s not exactly the thing they asked for. And then we put it out and then how do we know whether it worked or not? Like, what are we looking at?Esteban: Yes, so to answer your question, we see a usage in particular. We don’t have, of course, data about a particular users, but we know that roughly X amount of people are using this feature. We also know from social media, we got a little bit of love ⁓ after posting that we launched this. And then the other thing that’s a really interesting metric is we see the feedback coming in. ⁓ and comparing with what kind of feedback we were getting a month ago, and we see a big decrease on charge organization requests. As said, there are still things that we can do and we’re working on them, but we see a lot of people, a lot less people requesting for things like this, which is also good news.Gabriel: I love that metric. mean, because it really is, I guess we are lucky that we have enough users and enough sample size where we can be like, wow, chat organization is a category we can ascribe feedback to. And now it’s like halved or whatever after these features come out, right?Esteban: Right. Yeah, so something we did for this project that is super interesting, it was fun for me to do was that we have this category, like chat organization, and then we get feedback directly from our users asking for a specific feature. I went and looked into all the feedback that was related to chat organization, and I tried to see why we’re asking for a specific feature. Some of them actually mentioned it, no, I want this so I can do that. And then those needs, I matched them with what type of features will work, even just by naming different types of features. You said that this was sort of favorites or it could be pinning or it could be saved or it could be bookmarked. We also have bookmarks in the browser. So how do we name the feature related to the benefit that I will have and the need that it will solve, but also how much effort will require from the users to actually get the benefit that they were asking for? ⁓ Create projects, it’s a lot of effort.And they will get a lot of benefit, but not many people are willing to spend time organizing on their chats. But pinning is one tap away So that’s a sort of ⁓ prioritization exercise that we did to define exactly what are the new features that we’re going to launch.Gabriel: Yeah, that’s a super interesting point because like all different features have different levels of complexity for us to build. And then also for the user to actually use to your point, like I’ve seen, yeah, I’ve seen lots of requests for people wanting really complex things, but then very small percentage of people would actually go through the effort to use those things. Whereas to your point here, pinning, especially the chat title is just automatic. We get that for free to everybody. But then the pinning is just literally just a one click. You don’t have to type in a name for it, a folder name for example. You just get the pinning at the top.Esteban: Right. And in some cases you actually need to go and give effort to the users in a

In this episode, Gabriel (Founder) and Thom (Security Team) discuss Scam Blocker. How it works, the types of scams it protects against, and why our ‘bad pages’ list is updated so often. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Show notes: See the full blog post on Scam Blocker. Gabriel: Hello, welcome to DuckTales. I’m Gabriel, CEO and founder of DuckDuckGo. DuckTales is everything kind of inside DuckDuckGo. Today we have a new topic. I don’t think we have discussed much about security in our browser. I got Thom here. Thom, you want to introduce yourself?Thom: Yeah, sure. Hi, I’m Thom. I’m one of the security engineers here at DuckDuckGo. I spend most of my time kind of in and out of browser security, product security, that kind of stuff. Yeah, that’s the kind of stuff I love.Gabriel: Sweet. And I think we’re here today to talk about our Scam Blocker. If you follow our blog, we actually had a pretty big article about this when it launched a few months ago. And so you can always check that out too, but we’re going to tell you all about it here and some of the inside info on how it came together. Yeah, Thom, you want to just explain generally what it is? What is Scam Blocker exactly?Thom: Yeah, sure. So I guess Scam Blocker is what we call our in-browser phishing and scam protection. It kind of runs in the background and checks websites as you visit them all locally in the browser. And we kind of have a pretty big data set here that we get from Netcraft. So we can protect against all sorts of scams — this isn’t your standard phishing protection. We try and protect against cloned e-commerce sites, fake crypto exchanges, scareware like fake virus pages, and advertising of fake products and stuff. So we have quite a lot that we’re trying to protect against, but this feature as a whole is that warning page that you get when you’re about to visit something that could be scammy or phishing related.Gabriel: So let’s talk about that distinction a little bit. I guess backing up a little, how did this come together? How did we end up building this and then building it kind of differently than other companies?Thom: Yeah, so it came from a long way back. Originally, we had this idea that we wanted to improve our tracking protection and all of this stuff — trying to make our browsers as safe as possible for our users. We knew that we wanted to do something in this space, but the challenge was that it’s quite easy to build a feature like this where it ends up looking like you need to check people’s browsing activity — and we can’t do that from a privacy perspective. So we knew that we had to do this in a privacy-preserving way, and we didn’t like the idea of sending any data to Google or Microsoft because they pretty much own this space in terms of browser protections. We weren’t comfortable with that, so that kind of led us down the path of building it ourselves.Gabriel: Interesting. So like at a high level, our browser has a privacy protection list instead of blocking that we built ourselves because we didn’t believe anyone else was doing it up to the standard that we think it should be. But that’s all kind of behind the scenes on pages that you visit, assuming that was a page you actually wanted to visit. Privacy and security overlap, but as I understand it, some pages you visit are actually bad for you — not because there’s hidden trackers, but because the page itself has malware or scams. Those are the pages we wanted to cover. And in doing that, you need to have a list of bad pages.Thom: Yeah.Gabriel: Everyone else seems to be using Google or Microsoft, and all the other browsers are just kind of riding on Google Safe Browsing. But we wanted to go somewhere different. So we found this vendor Netcraft, who maintains a big list, and it turns out they have an even bigger list than Google’s because they cover these other categories, right?Thom: Yeah, exactly.Gabriel: Like some of these scam categories that you mentioned are not traditional malware phishing. They’re theoretically legitimate businesses that are scamming you. So for whatever reason, they’re not on Google’s list. Is that kind of how to think about it?Thom: Yeah. That’s a good way of saying it. Some of these are quite unique. One of the interesting cases I like to refer to is that sometimes even a blog post could be a scam. If this is a blog post advertising a fake product that’s going to steal your money, that’s a problem. A lot of these scam sites start somewhere trusted, like a Medium article or GitHub page, and then send you down fishy paths until you end up somewhere meant to steal your money. That’s the kind of thing we’re looking at here with Netcraft. We get data that lets us look at the source of it rather than waiting for you to click through multiple times to get there.Gabriel: So we license this data set from Netcraft who’s aggregating all of these scams from different signals. And then what do we do with it exactly? How does it work to be embedded in the browser?Thom: Basically, we pull this data — it’s constantly evolving, which is one of the challenges. We have to update it pretty much every five minutes on the backend. We pull it, process it, filter out some of the lower-risk things, and then compress it.Gabriel: Five minutes is so quick. So it’s really happening in real time. I didn’t realize we were doing it that real time.Thom: Yeah, it’s rapid. If you take a random phishing link now and look again in five minutes, chances are it’s gone.Gabriel: And that’s because all these people are reporting these things, right? It’s an arms race — things get blocked quick, they switch domains, and all sorts of crazy stuff.Thom: Exactly. It’s this constant cat-and-mouse game.Gabriel: Cool. Sorry to interrupt. Every five minutes, we’re updating this list on our backend.Thom: Yeah, and then we compress this into a small format. Our browsers pull this data every 10 to 20 minutes depending on platform. That’s how the update mechanism works.Gabriel: Got it. So once it’s sitting in the browser, the browser checks against the list. If you’re going somewhere that’s on the list, that’s when you see the warning page. Are we similar to others where you get a big warning page but can accept the risk? And do all these warning pages look the same or are there different types?Thom: Yeah, pretty much the same. You get a warning page explaining the case. We have three types of warning pages — they vary slightly in iconography and copy. They’re for malware, phishing, and scam. Malware means you might download something malicious, phishing is about credentials or credit cards, and scam is broader — like a dodgy e-commerce site.Gabriel: Got it. So any surprises in building this or challenges that arose getting it live to production?Thom: Yeah, a few. The first one is that we have four browsers — four different platforms. The core part of the feature is constantly updating, but the other challenge is intercepting navigation requests. Every browser does this differently. So we had to map out how each does it and figure out ways to do it efficiently. We pride ourselves on our browsers being quick — we don’t want to affect load times. So we had to make sure the check runs quickly, just before a page loads. There’s a lot to consider. That was one of the biggest challenges.Gabriel: Yeah, that makes sense. It basically seems like one project, but it’s four big projects — MacOS, Windows, Android, and iOS. Cool. So how has it gone? Any good response? I know we put out a blog post and got some press when it launched. It seemed positive from my view, but from your point of view, what did you think?Thom: I think we had good positive feedback. One unique thing about this feature is that it’s in the background — its success hinges on people not really seeing it. If loads of people are seeing the error page, then we’ve probably done something wrong. But overall, it’s gone well.Gabriel: Yeah, that’s a good point. It’s like our other privacy protections — always on, not breaking sites, contributing to peace of mind. It’s protection that’s there, not in your face.Thom: Precisely. People who’ve come across it said it works well and gives them peace of mind.Gabriel: Cool. So it sounds like it kind of went off without a hitch. Is there anything left to do now? Are we kind of in maintenance mode with it?Thom: Yeah, pretty much in maintenance mode. We have about three or four people monitoring metrics. But we’re exploring ways to enhance the data, maybe adding new or better data sets. We might tailor data sets by platform — for example, malware is more prevalent on Windows, scams more on mobile. I’ve also been reading about using small language models fine-tuned to detect scammy websites locally. It’s promising research — local-only, privacy-preserving — though I don’t see it in the browser anytime soon.Gabriel: That sounds fun. A good hack day project — and who knows, lots of those end up in the product. I definitely think we should ship local models or get access to local ones on the device. The problem’s been that either local models aren’t very good or the downloadable ones are too big, like three gigs. But I think it’s coming. I think there’ll be a future where we have local models in the browser, shipped by default or opt-in, maybe with extra protection. That would be an interesting incentive to download a local model if it gives extra security protection.Thom: Yeah, exactly — extra security protections. I’d love that.Gabriel: All right. Well, we’ll end here. Thanks, Thom, for coming on. Hope everyone enjoyed hearing about security, and maybe when you launch something new, come back and we’ll talk about it again. All right, bye everybody.Thom: That was great. Thanks a lot, Gabriel. This is a public episode. If you would like t

In this episode, Cristina (SVP, Marketing) and Peter (Director, Product) discuss digital fingerprinting, privacy washing, and how hidden trackers appear in the majority of popular websites. Plus, the steps you can take to protect yourself online. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.CristinaHi, and welcome to DuckTales, where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, technology, and people that help provide privacy tools for everyone.In each episode, you’ll hear from employees about our vision, product updates, approach to AI, or how we operate as a company. Today, we’re going to chat about the online privacy problem and DuckDuckGo’s web protections. I’m Cristina. I’m on the marketing team. And today, I’ll be interviewing Peter. Peter, would you like to introduce yourself, maybe what team you’re on and where you spend a lot of your time? ⁓Peter Absolutely.Hi, Cristina. I’m Peter. I’m on the product team at DuckDuckGo, which I typically work on our browsers and our privacy protection. So happy and excited to talk about the mystifying world of online tracking and privacy today.CristinaAwesome, likewise, well let’s jump in. So I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear just how much information about them is being tracked online. Some seemingly irrelevant to what they’re doing and some pretty creepy in how detailed it is and how all the dots are being connected. Can you give some examples of the pervasiveness of this tracking?Peter Absolutely. know, anyone I talk to about online privacy, the first thing they’ll tell me, and I’m sure you’ve heard the same, is microphones must be listening to them. ⁓ Yeah, everyone can give an example of a conversation in their household where not too long thereafter, they’re seeing advertisements, creepy advertisements, following them around online based on, you know, what it is they were talking about. ⁓ And the reality is the amount of surveillance that happensis like microphones are listening to you everywhere, but the methods are not actually microphones. The methods are actual trackers on websites, on search engines and browsers and apps, which we’ll talk about that are always collecting information about you. ⁓ So just to break those down a little bit, most people, if you think about someone in their daily life, they’re going to go do a search online, whether it’s on their smartphone or on their computer.The search engine that most people use is, of course, Google, most dominant search engine in the world. They collect basically anything and everything about you. ⁓ And so that search engine is one source of this data collection. And then ⁓ the browser you use to actually do those searches, often owned by some of the same companies like Google, ⁓ like Google Chrome specifically, these browsers also directlycollect information about you. So if you’re not using a private search or a private browser, a lot of information is directly collected about you. But then, of course, after you do a search and you get onto a website, the websites themselves have trackers embedded in them. And specifically, we’ve done actually a lot of analysis on this. 85 % of the top websites on the web have Google trackers included in them, and about 36 % haveMeta or Facebook trackers overall. And these trackers are pieces of code that run on the websites that send information about you, what you’re doing on the site, what products you’re looking at, what’s in your shopping cart, and so on to companies that are not the owners of the websites. The same is true of your mobile apps. So just as it happens, the surveillance on websites, it happens in your mobile apps. ⁓ In fact, 96 % of the popular top free AndroidApps send data to third-party companies. And of those, 87 % send data to Google, 68 % send data to Guest It, Meta, and Facebook. Top two trackers overall. And then, of course, there’s other sources too. When you use emails, emails contain trackers. When you open them, little code fires. It tells the email sender when you open their email, where you were when they opened the email. And then there’s a lot of other scenarios too. Like if you go to the store,What do they ask you when you make a purchase at the store? Can we have your email address? And they say, oh, it’s for a loyalty program. You can get points or whatever it is. But the reality is they’re actually usually taking that email address and then directly uploading it to Facebook, to Instagram, so that they can buy advertisements targeting you later. And so you combine all this. And you have this pervasive tracking and then targeting that’s happening.that makes it feel like ultimately there must be microphones listening to you, but it’s just happening throughout your day overall.CristinaIt’s pretty chilling that I could be on almost any site or Android app or reading email or at the mall buying a new shirt and companies like Google are tracking me. So what type of information are they collecting?Peter So they’re typically after two sets of things. And when I say they, I use Google and Meta, Facebook as examples, but there’s thousands of other ad tech companies that are often in the mix trying to collect something about you as well. ⁓ They’re looking first for an identifier. So they want something that’s gonna be able to tie what you’re doing to an identity so they know who it is, or even if they might not know who exactly it is, they wanna know it’s the same person. So of course, email address could be an identifier, your name could be an identifier, phone number could be an identifier. Those are the obvious ones that they would want. And by the way, this is why so many websites try to get you to log in on those websites, often with your Google login, because then they can tie all this, whatever you’re doing on that website to your identity. And then of course, I think most people have heard of cookies, and seen cookie banners come up when they visit websites.Cookies are another form of identifier, might not be your name or your email address, but it is a unique code. And so that when these trackers that are across all these websites see the same cookie identifiers across those websites, they all, this is the same person. And so whatever you did on this site, we can link it to whatever you did on this other site. And then there’s a couple other identifiers such as ⁓ digital fingerprints, which really use information about your device, like your screen resolution and your battery, literally the state of your headphone jack on your smartphones, they piece this together into a digital fingerprint that is unique. And so if they see the same set of attributes about your device on a different website or different app, again, they can infer this is the same person overall. So that’s the first thing they want, identifiers. And then the second thing they want is something about you, behavior, interests, actions. ⁓ And so it might be as high level as Cristina’s into snowboarding. ⁓But it could be as low level as the specific things that you had in your shopping cart, what you purchased in real life in Home Depot last week. ⁓ Whatever it is, they basically want to collect it, put it together into a behavioral profile that they can then turn around to advertisers and offer very hyper-targeting to these individuals overall. And just to give you a sort of creepy example, we’ve done a lot of studies on this with websites and apps.And we looked at health websites and health applications, ones where you may look up health conditions or prescription drugs. And we literally observe these trackers included in these apps or websites sending information about your health conditions, your sexual orientation, and even prescription drug information to third-party companies overall, things that people would be absolutely shocked to hear overall.CristinaThat’s definitely not information I want shared without my permission. ⁓ And while historically I might have thought something like, ⁓ battery life or headphone jacks, whatever, don’t care, when you start piecing it together to make this fingerprint like you’re talking about, yeah, it gets super scary. You know, I’ve heard some people say, ugh, it’s impossible to do anything when it comes to these giant companies and all these clever ways they’re collecting information. Anything I could do would just be a drop in the ocean. How is DuckDuckGo thinking about a user-led approach to solving the privacy problem?Peter DuckDuckGo, obviously, most people know us through our private search engine. And of course, our private search doesn’t collect information about users. That’s what sets it apart. And even our advertisements themselves on DuckDuckGo search are just based on what you’re searching for. But ⁓ we realized that protecting people in their searches is not enough. We needed to protect people’s privacy more broadly. And so that’s why DuckDuckGo introduced you some years back. ⁓browsers as well. And so you could use our search and our browser to more broadly protect you. ⁓ Let me share my screen a little bit here just to show you a sort of comparison we put together. So we put together a comparison for people. I won’t go over all the details. feel free to take a look at this later, duckduckgo.com slash compare dash privacy. But ⁓ basically, when you’re trying to protectCristinaThat’d be great.Peter privacy broadly through all these threats I step through. You really need protections for each one of those threats and the methods of data collection. And so that’s what we try to incorporate into our browser overall. And so you’ll see our browser has a bunch of different web tracking protections. We block these third party trackers that are on the websites. We block link trackings, a little codes embedded in the links you cli

In this episode, Gabriel (Founder) and Greg (Product, Search) discuss how we’re giving users even more ways to customize their search experience with site exclusions — an easy way to remove certain websites from appearing in search results.Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Gabriel:Hello again, welcome to DuckTales, our inside DuckDuckGo podcast video thing. I don’t know what you call us exactly. Today I have Greg with us. Greg, you want to introduce yourself?Greg:Hello, ⁓ I’m Greg Fiorentino. ⁓ I ⁓ work on the product team here at DuckDuckGo. I’ve been here almost seven years, which is wild, time flies, ⁓ but yeah.Gabriel:That is a long time. And you’re underselling yourself a little bit. Yes, you’re on product team, but for the last while and for the future, you’re running our search engine, correct?Greg:Yeah, that’s right. Search retention, ⁓ I have worked across local search, the search ads, ⁓ lots of different things. ⁓Gabriel:Sweet, and today we are talking about a relatively new search feature that we launched that people are liking. And you know what, I won’t even introduce it. I’ll leave you to share your screen and let’s walk through it.Greg:Sure. So ⁓ we now ⁓ have the ability to, ⁓ for users to exclude ⁓ individual domains ⁓ from their search results. So I’ll kind of show real quick what this looks like. Let’s say I’m doing a, I’m writing some code and I want to do a technical search. I want to figure out how to do an array of strings in TypeScript.Gabriel:Those who don’t know TypeScript is a programming language. Yes, right. JavaScript-ish.Greg:Programming language, yeah, yeah, yeah. Super set of JavaScript. So let’s say I want to know how to do this and I get a bunch of search results and I see some here. And some of these are sites I know and like, and maybe some of them I want to exclude. I don’t want to throw too much shade, but let me just pick one and kind of go. So let’s say I don’t want to get results from W3 schools.Gabriel:I’ve seen so many comments about people wanting to get rid of W3Skulls, not to throw shade. I’ve used W3Skulls before and I don’t find it that bad, but there’s a lot of people who seem to not like it who would probably want to remove it, so.Greg:Yeah I’ve used it too. Yeah. Yeah, and I would say, mean, this feature, I think, is particularly good for use cases like this, where there’s a site that maybe comes up a lot, and for whatever reason, a user has kind of a disposition that they just don’t want to see that site. We have other ways to accomplish this. ⁓ You can just put minus site and then the domain in your query.Gabriel:So you could do that for a long time, right? This minus sign thing. But this menu, which people don’t even maybe realize exists a lot of people, is relatively new, like maybe a year ago or something like that.Greg:Yeah, we added this menu a little over a year ago to all organics, and organics being these text results. And at first, And in fact, I can just show if I click this redo search without this site, you’ll see it adds that syntax right to the query ⁓ and excludes it from the results. ⁓ So we’ve had that since we first launched this menu about a year ago. ⁓ And it works pretty well. We got some good feedback about that when we first launched it. ⁓ We also added that menu to give us the ability to have users flag specific results ⁓ for a variety of reasons. So users can tell us about individual results that they don’t like if they click Share Feedback about this site. ⁓ But the new feature is that you can now choose to block this site from all results. So you don’t have to add that syntax to the query every time you want to remove it. So if I do that, you get this little message saying that it’s been blocked successfully. And I’m not sure if my screen is showing it, but you get a message at the top that tells you that you have one result hidden from a site that you’ve blocked. And you can also go into your settings and you can see the sites that you’ve blocked and manage them.Gabriel:Sweet and reception so far. don’t think, cause I think it was new. I don’t think we’ve done a lot of announcements of this yet. ⁓ by the curious, like, is it starting to get usage? Like that kind of thing.Greg:Yeah, we’re seeing a relatively ⁓ growing number of searches per day that use this block in some form. The vast majority are only blocking a single site. ⁓ We’ve talked about it little bit in a couple of places ⁓ on social and also just have users write in through our usual feedback channels to tell us about it. ⁓ You know, I think the theme here is that... We just are giving users more choice ⁓ in how their search results work. They can ⁓ do some level of customization to their own needs. ⁓ And so this is kind of another feature that helps to accomplish that. And I think that’s generally appreciated. There are some limitations also to this that we’ve heard about too, and we’re thinking about how to make it even better. But yes, growing usage and some positive results. reaction so far.Gabriel:Sweet, yeah, I agree. We’ve been doing customization for a long time. mean, like this, the settings screen you’re just showing shows how many settings we actually support in terms of customization, which is a lot. And it reminds me of the AI filter that we also recently launched to remove ⁓ some AI image search results. ⁓ This, like you said, it’s a little different because it’s more like... specific domains that are coming up a lot that you really don’t like. ⁓ But yeah, I’m curious, like, given the feedback so far, and I remember now seeing several subreddit people finding it and posting positive things about it, subreddit posts. But yeah, like, where are we thinking of taking this in the future? Or like, are there other features, kind of like the AI one that kind of merges or circles around this same idea of like removing things?Greg:Yeah, there are a couple of things. mean, you know, as a starting point, we had a limitation of five domains, up to five domains that users could do. You know, part of that was based on this hypothesis that most users really would only want to block one or two, which I think is what we’re seeing. We have had people ask us for more. We’re exploring how we would do that. You know, these things are always...Gabriel:In pause of that, partly a couple follow-up questions. One is, it’s client-side now, right? Like, you’re, you block the domains, you’re actually getting the results back, but then your client is removing them based on your settings.Greg:That’s correct, yeah, the result is there, it’s just not shown.Gabriel:Got it. And the second thing is like, I think we were also talking about like, if you remove too many, that’s probably the way I put the message up. Like you may actually want them sometimes when they’re really relevant. And then if you remove tons of domains and then you remove actually good stuff sometimes, then you’re going to think our search results are terrible because you actually removed stuff that was important that one time.Greg:That’s right. One of the things we tested when we built this was how often do we see just a page of all the same domain, such that if a user removed that domain, they would get a no results page and think that the search engine was broken. ⁓Gabriel:You’re like, no results that time, yeah.Greg:It’s not zero, right? If I, for example, typed in, you know, I wanna see something on W3 schools from that example from a minute ago and got all results from there, it would just be an empty page. So we wanna be able to say, hey, you’ve made some customization here that’s hiding some results from you and you have the option then to see them.Gabriel:But nevertheless, we’re, I we set five initially, but we’re thinking about increasing it at least a little bit.Greg:That’s right. They’re also, ⁓ right now they only apply to those organic texts. link results. We’re looking at expanding that to other kinds of content on the page that it should also apply to. ⁓ And there’s potentially overlap with the AI image feature that you talked about. ⁓ Certainly, there’s some use cases around ⁓ news or videos or other kinds of content that users might want to have a little bit more customization around.Gabriel:And it’s also, I it’s also possible that, you know, similar to the AI image list, we could use a kind of organic AI list to have a different feature, but a similar kind of toggle to like remove AI organics or something like that.Greg:Yeah, that’s definitely something we’re looking at too. I mean, it’s a similar kind of ⁓ challenge and part of the challenge there is just that there are so many new sites kind of popping up every day. ⁓ And so this feature is less geared around that. I would put that in more of the sort of... ⁓ spam category, results that are ⁓ things that maybe very, very rarely get clicked ⁓ on, very fresh, ⁓ but not a ton of original content. ⁓ There are potentially other things that we wanna add on top of this feature to kind of supplement that and help users not have so many of those showing up in their results too.Gabriel:I guess related to that, I you showed the menu where we have, and you could submit feedback. think we’ve also, I mean, you could submit feedback there that it’s a spam site. I think we might’ve also recently added, you could submit that it’s an AI spam site, but we actually use that information. And to the extent that we ultimately make a feature that might toggle off some of that, like we would use that feedback. So if you’re out there and you wanna submit us feedback, that’s a good way to do it for like sites that you’re finding you don’t. are completely not relevant,Greg:Yeah, that’s exactly right. Maybe I’ll just show that real quick because...Gabriel:Yeah, that’s good. I mean, we want more feedback o

In this episode, Gabriel (founder) and Beah (VP, Product) discuss functional and non-functional product delight, how we’ve created 350+ versions of our mascot (and counting), and why AI is so bad at adding mustaches to Ducks. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.GabrielHello again, welcome to Duck Tales. ⁓ I think this is gonna be episode four. Hopefully it’s getting better. Today I am not interviewing Beah. Beah’s actually gonna interview me about a feature that’s fun that I think you’ll enjoy. But Beah, you wanna introduce yourself?BeahSure. I’m Beah. I’m on the product team here at DuckDuckGo. Been here about six years. So seen a lot of things that have happened in recent DuckDuckGo product history. I, Delight is a favorite topic, a theme of mine. So I’m glad to be doing this conversation.GabrielYes, indeed. Yes, speaking of the light, my favorite dog is behind you. Because I don’t have a dog. Well, I don’t have a dog, and it’s the dog I interact with most. Friday.BeahHe’s your favorite. Certainly the one that attacks you the most, playfully attacks you the most. Yeah. Yes, that’s that’s Friday, everyone. He is usually not so low energy as he looks right now.GabrielThat’s true. Yeah. The bar might be low. But yes, so I forgot to say DuckTales is obviously inside DuckDuckGo, behind the scenes kind of information about things we’re doing and how the company works and features we’re building and all that kind of stuff. ⁓ And as you noted, we have a delightful feature ⁓ that we’d like to talk about today. But I worked on it, it was actually part of Hack Days. We had a previous episode, it was also a feature came out of Hack Days. But yeah, shoot some questions at me and I will respond.BeahSure. Tell us the origin, Gabriel. How did you come to decide to work on this?GabrielYes, so what are we talking about? First of all, if you ⁓ search some special words, often characters like Spider-Man, Batman kind of thing, ⁓ the logo, our logo, Dax the Duck for those people don’t know, will change and he will be costumed ⁓ in that character ⁓ in the little logo on the search engine. We actually did this a long time ago. So we used to do like our version of Google doodles or whatever on the homepage. Maybe like literally 15 years ago at this point, ⁓ up until maybe 2012 ish. ⁓ We stopped doing it because it was hard to do. It took a lot of time to make the, make the especially logos. It also confused a lot of people because we put it up in like kind of random situations, like someone may have died or hollowed something and people who didn’t know about that person or holiday were just like what what what is going on with this but a lot of people really liked it and especially liked just the idea and the fun I would call delight as we’re gonna get to the the changing logo and that just the funness of dressing up a character ⁓ and I also am in that category so I’ve been wanting to bring this back for like 10 years but had no great way to do it⁓ And then enter, enter AI. I thought that AI could be useful ⁓ making these specialty logos in some way. ⁓ When I first tried it, it was not, and I tried different versions of image models. But then finally I was hack days a few months ago, got it to work. ⁓ And so now we’ve been making them.BeahOkay. Okay.GabrielOne of suggestions of the community and team members and putting them up as Easter eggs. Yeah.BeahDo you want to just say what hack days is for anybody who doesn’t know.GabrielYeah, so Hack Days is every quarter, anyone who wants to participate in the company, and we’re about 300 people at this point, maybe 350 or something, can get together and create work on anything they want, really. It often is like features, ideas, and maybe designer, engineer, new, don’t have to be a product person, but they don’t have to be engineering a product, they can just join and collaborate, come up with something exciting. It could be like little things like fixing bugs or things in our product, but often like things people are really excited about like this for me. I actually tried it in two different ways. I wanted to do this idea, but I also wanted to get back into programming and try out all the AI programming tools. So in doing this, I actually used AI for the first time, like end to end to like write the code.BeahOkay. Okay. ⁓what AI tools do you use?GabrielI used Curser to kind of manage the creation of the tool. And then I used ⁓ the ChatGPT Create Image API to really be the generation of this. I can share my screen a little bit and we can look atBeahYeah, show us some.GabrielYeah, let me do that. Sharing screen, window. Okay. Let me actually. this way. Okay, can you see this? Sweet. Okay, so ⁓ this is one of my favorites. So if you search the dude, which is a character from The Big Lebowski, I move this so I can see you still. ⁓ And you put your mouse over, you can see Dax is now decked out in the sweater and sunglasses. And I put this in a new tab so you can see it ⁓ zoomed in a bit. ⁓BeahOkay. Okay.GabrielSo this is kind of the idea. A few of my other favorite ones so you can get the ideas. If you search Hydra, ⁓ you get this,Gabrielyou know, and multi-dex, if you will. Moona Nights, for those who don’t know, that’s an Aqua Teen Hunger Force character. ⁓BeahJust for the record. I did not know that.GabrielAre you serious you know or you didn’t know it? Okay, you might have noticed there’s a big Moon poster in our office. You walk through it because we go there sometimes. And the final one I throw up is the white rabbit from Alice in Wonderland. I just like the idea that Dax is a duck, but you can also make this work with like a mixture of animals, which is fun. Yeah, okay. So a couple of things I want to point out.BeahHmm. Yeah. did you decide how to like, how did you figure out who to do this for, what characters to do this for?GabrielYes, best part about this is, I didn’t for the most part. I put this up and we came up with some guidelines internally, like we’re not doing alive people, that kind of thing, mainly characters. And I just asked ⁓ for suggestions internally. Once I had like initial set, I posted it and I’ve been getting internal suggestions from the get-go. So at this point, I just go ⁓ every few weeks.And there’s magically more suggestions from our team members in there. And I haven’t heard of, would say, 60 % of them. And I will just kind of make them happen. The tool that does that, just to show you this a little bit, which is kind of fun, is, so this is an internal tool. I did this for suggestions that are real suggestions right now. So this is like internal stuff. These might come. I have no idea what Podman is, by the way. I just said this this morning.GabrielI literally just gave it the word Athena and it based on this big image prompt that I can show you in a minute and it’ll generate 10 probe and I suggest variations and then we’ll pick one that seems like it matches the best. Often times, sometimes about 50 % of the time it’s pretty good off the get go like this. And then another 50 % of the time. It doesn’t know what to do. Like this is, there’s mustaches all over the place. We talk about that. I don’t know what pod man is exactly, but I’m assuming none of this is great for it. So what I’m to have to do for this one is figure out what pod man is and then give it a little more instruction. And this is another one that I think is kind of working for the most part. ⁓ Wednesday Adams, although it looks a little angry. So like we want to keep it friendly. So I probably will give a little suggestion about that.Beah⁓ You want to talk about the mustache problem?GabrielYeah, so you pointed this out after we had about 100 that like AI is really bad at placing mustaches on decks. It like, you can see in the array of these, they don’t even ask for a mustache on this one. But like this one’s like on the beak. This one’s in the beak, I guess he’s eating it.BeahYeah. Yes, those are my favorite when they’re eating their own mustache. My theory for tell me how outlandish this is, my theory is that the internet doesn’t have a lot of pictures of ducks with mustaches and thus the training material is inadequate. Although I think with this initiative, probably improving on that.GabrielI’ve been trying to just avoid it at this point. I think it’s a good theory. I have definitely tried, I tried for like a couple of days to like get better mustache instructions and it did not work. A couple of things I wanted to highlight. So what’s actually been most fun about this now is that, because the intention was to delight people from Easter eggs. The community, especially on our subreddit, very excited about this. So much so, especially this one.BeahHahaha.Gabrielcommunity member, actually I don’t know how to pronounce it so I might get this wrong. think they might be French, Sean Mack, apologies if I did that wrong, actually has made a categorizing all the ones that they found ⁓ and also taking suggestions which is gonna be helpful for us. But what’s been fun is they’ve been trying to find them. We haven’t told them which ones exist. So there is infinite theoretical possibilities here. We haven’t even really told them how many there are, I think we should reveal it on this podcast. We have our own internal logo file, this one, so I’m not gonna show them all of them, but there might be one on this page that they haven’t seen. But at the bottom, I have my own count here. There’s 364 currently. And their count,BeahThe big reveal.Gabrielyes, their count is 322.So that is 44 that they need to or that are out there to find.BeahBut by next week the number might be larger. Is that right?GabrielYes, it probably will be larger, if that is correct. And then the one last thing I wanted to show you, which you might find interesting, l

In this episode, Gabriel (Founder & CEO) speaks with Nirzar (Duck.ai lead) about how we’re making AI more useful by letting users choose the tone and length of AI responses. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy.Gabriel Hello again, welcome to Duck Tales, where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and talk about things going on inside the company and features for building, cetera, et We’re gonna talk AI again. Today I have Nirzar with me. Nirzar, you wanna introduce yourself?NirzarYeah, sure. the designer for Duck.ai. I kind of lead the product. And yeah, we’ve been working together. Yeah, mean, yeah, it’s actually been super nice to have like that product here. And yeah, I’ve been kind of working on Duck.ai for last two years. Actually, we started like doing the MVP together, Gabe, you and I, we were kind of playing around.Gabriel You’re more than a designer. You’re more than a designer at this point.Yes, indeed. So Duck.ai is our chat equivalent, AI chat equivalent. ⁓ It’s private chat. You can access popular models from within it. What are the model providers we have now? Here’s our.Nirzar Right now we are offering GPT4 Mini which is our default. We also started offering GPT5 Mini which is the newest model from OpenAI. Actually a lot of people are using it a lot more than we expected. But we also like focusing on open source models obviously. So the OpenAI is open source model, Llama and Mistral as well and Cloud Antropiq. So yeah, it kind of fits into our idea about just giving a lot of choice to the users, yeah.Gabriel Model choice, all the major providers. Yeah, okay. So my quick spiel on our AI approach that I gave last time, but for anyone new. Approach to AI, private, useful, optional, private. In this case, know, it applies to all our AI features, but in this case, you know, we anonymize chats. We don’t train on data. We have bunch of other privacy features in there. Do you want to hit on a couple?Nirzar Hmm.Yeah mainly I think the storing the chats on your local devices, I think a big one. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the like the biggest sort of thing that we’ve been pursuing is also having like retention of chats and like not having any retention in most cases, which is actually like most industry standard. ⁓Gabriel Yes, if you have recent chats, they’re gonna be stored on your local device, not on DuckDuckGo servers.Nirzar And we’re also looking into some private inference stuff, but we’ll get to that later.Gabriel Great, mainly anonymous and not training. Useful, we’re gonna get to that in a second, because we’re gonna talk about customization, which I think is a super useful feature that we added recently. And then optional, just a couple words on that. ⁓ All our AI features are optional, including Duck.ai. I mean, obviously you can choose not to use it if you don’t wanna use it in general. In our integrations into our search engine and browser, we have settings that will turn it off.Gabriel So there’s no integration of the search engine if you don’t want it. No integration of the browser if you don’t want the entry points. Although we do think you should check it out because we do think it’s useful in private. ⁓ But we understand people who don’t want to do that for various reasons.Nirzar Yep. If you’re gonna use it somewhere else, it’s better to use it here if you care about privacy.Gabriel That’s a good way to put it. Yeah. Okay. So back to useful customization. We’re here today to talk about feature that we’ve been working on. You want to introduce it, maybe share screen.Nirzar Yeah, I can go through it. Yeah, no, I just like remember where it came from when you asked me to talk about it and I remember you were kind of annoyed at like use of emoji and responses and also like how big the responses are. I sometimes like it but I gotta get that and I think what you mentioned was like if like I don’t like it, I’m pretty sure a bunch of people don’t like it as well. So we kind of talked about like, hey.Gabriel Yes, I’m very Gen X and I don’t like emojis. ⁓Yes.Nirzar Like I think what kind of we concluded was just the idea that like there is not like a single personality that we can land on that will like kind of suit everyone. And we always try to give choice to users. ⁓ So I think this kind of fits into the choice and control obviously. And this kind of fits into that ⁓ category. Let me just give you a demo quickly of how it works.Gabriel Yeah, while you’re doing that,where I was coming from with that too, was like chatting, this whole feature of chatting is very obviously conversational. like you’re talking to somebody, know, that we’re personifying the AI in this case. I mean, there are people you like to talk to and there are people you don’t like to talk to, there are people you like their texts and there are people you don’t like their texts. Here you can control that. And that would be the idea is to give users control about like what kind of responses. If you’re going to be chatting with this thing a lot.NirzarYeah.YeahGabriel Like, what do you want it to sound like, you know? I think that’s kind of the idea for me. And not everybody would choose the same thing.Nirzar Yeah, it’s very personal. think this personality thing is very kind of difficult to nail down on anything. In those cases, it’s just better to sort of give that ⁓ to each user. They can decide what they want. So I’ll just show one quick thing. By the way, I think a lot of this was like, it’s reusing a lot of these tools. like ChatGPT also has something similar, but I think what you and like what we wanted to do is just like putting it like friend and center. So basically like this is a very small example. Don’t take greetings to chatbots are any popular anymore, but let’s say you are, no?Gabriel I’m not seeing it yet, Nirzar. I got a black screen, so, nah, weird. Try to reshare. It worked before. We tested this. Try it one more time. it doesn’t work, I’ll try mine. there you go. Yeah, it works now. Go for it.Nirzar Yeah, we tried that. I would be surprised. All right, perfect. ⁓ Yeah, so we also wanted to like kind of put it front and center. And this is one example of just like saying.Gabriel I think that’s super important because it’s like it’s a front and center thing. you’re going to, this is a very important thing to change the personality. So it’s not hidden behind settings. That’s a big design departure.NirzarYeah, yeah, yeah, I don’t think like anybody else had this like this prominent and it kind of like incentives to use it as well. Try it out, see how it works. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. ⁓ So yeah, I think the personality thing that we were talking about was just like, like the tonality, like use of emojis, for example, but like, as you can see, this is like a base model. It’s like Claud, Sonnet 4 and if you ask it,How’s it going? It’s like, it’s nice to connect with you. How are things on your end? This is like not a very good way to like, these words just like make me a little bit irk. But yeah, like I mean, this is like if you just customize it and this is what we came up with to begin with, which is like just the idea of like customizing the tone or like how long the response should be or like naming is also pretty good. Nirzar Like if I just ask it to call me by name. By the way, all of this is kind of stored on your local device to protect your privacy again.Gabriel Yeah, actually, one thing we didn’t say is you don’t even need an account to use Duck.ai. You can just show up at Duck.ai and start doing this without anything. And you can use pseudonyms too, you know.Nirzaryeah. Actually, you know what?Yeah, but you know what like when we didn’t think about it when we like made Duck.ai without logins But like when we released it like the biggest positive thing was like people were like, I don’t have to sign up It’s like a huge deal apparently but like I don’t think we thought about it that much but it’s really good I think that that’s why it worked really well. Anyway, sorry coming back to this I digress ⁓Gabriel That’s what we would call a strategy credit for being a privacy company since we don’t have accounts. We didn’t even have an ability to log in.Nirzar Hahaha Sorry, we..Sorry, I meant we thoroughly thought about it and it was a great decision. ⁓ Okay, so I’m gonna ask it to call me by my new real name and I’m gonna say my tone, I want it to be like a little bit more playful, as I said connect with you. This is pretty simple. If I apply it, it’s going to store it on your thing. there is a much great I like it. ⁓ Anyways, but instantly just like such like just a very different response to the same model. And this is what we mean by like, like even a little bit of instructions can like make the most out of it. ⁓ This just made me like want to talk to it. I don’t know. Just calling it by your name or your nickname.GabrielAnd we, and like you mainly, but you like built in these options, right? Like you, like the ones that you suggested there.Nirzar Yeah. Yeah, so I think we worked a lot on these. I really like the ducky one that you wrote, these instructions which are pretty cool. Kind of pretends to be a duck, which is fun. And actually I use it a lot in like work stuff, because it kind of adds a little bit of these like...Gabriel Yeah.It was more like a throwaway idea, but yeah.Nirzar⁓ But yeah, just battling around digital port. It’s kind of stupid, but I like it. But yeah, I think we worked on this. The thing that we worked on the most was like this AI roles. ⁓ I think like it was actually kind of fun to write a bunch of these.I particularly like Chef one, cause I cook a lot and I think I used all my cooking knowledge to kind of inform to like all write all the instructions for Chef, like with the templates and stuff. like if y