The Science of Creativity

You've heard about Steve Jobs, the Wizard of Cupertino. They say he invented the iPhone.  Some people called him the iGod. But the iPhone was not created by a single genius, not Jobs and not anyone else. The real story is more surprising, and more interesting, than a myth about a single man. In this episode, Dr. Keith Sawyer reveals the true history behind Apple's groundbreaking invention. It was years of secret teams, failed prototypes, competing visions, and the collective creativity of hundreds of people.  Before the iPhone, cutting-edge techies carried all sorts of devices--phones, PDAs, and music players. If your device had a screen, it was tiny. If you could touch that screen, you had to use a plastic pointer. Touching on glass with your finger seemed impossible. Top executives in the business thought that a phone without a keyboard was a ridiculous idea. In 2007, Apple introduced a device that changed everything. It was more than a technological innovation; it changed entertainment, travel, and social life. Steve Jobs stood on stage at MacWorld, and said "We are calling it iPhone," but he wasn't the inventor. You'll hear that clip in this episode--he didn't say the iPhone, he said simply "iPhone."  This is the creation story of the iPhone. Not the myth, but what really happened. It's a wonderful example of group genius. Five Key Takeaways  The iPhone wasn't invented by one person—its creation emerged from years of ideas, prototypes, failures, and contributions from thousands of people. The breakthrough wasn't the hardware—it was the ecosystem: multitouch, iTunes, the App Store, cloud services, and developers all working together. Apple's first attempt at a phone, the Motorola ROKR, was a failure—and that failure was essential fuel for the true iPhone project. Cultural impact matters as much as technological innovation—smartphones fundamentally changed how humans navigate, create, communicate, and even remember. The iPhone is one of the most powerful examples of social innovation: a collective, emergent creation shaped by engineers, designers, users, markets, and culture. Music by license from SoundStripe:  "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich   Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

This is a special Christmas episode of The Science of Creativity. The creation of Christmas is an example of social innovation, a kind of collective creativity where everyone plays a role. Five hundred years ago, Christmas was a wild party, where young men got drunk and roamed in packs around town. Children didn't start getting gifts until about 200 years ago. The Santa Claus myth was invented, along with the elves and the workshop at the North Pole, in the late 1800s. This episode gives you the history of the secular, non-religious traditions that we celebrate at Christmas. It started two thousand years ago, in Ancient Rome, it picked up steam in the 1800s, and we're still creating new Christmas traditions today. The creation of Christmas is a story of social innovation and group genius. This is a special encore of one of my favorite episodes, originally published as season 1, episode 15, on December 1, 2024 Chapters Intro Traditions and Change Wassailing and Twelfth Night Toys and Gift-Giving Santa Claus and the Elves The War on Christmas The Holiday for Everyone Outro Music by license from Soundstripe Blues for Oliver - Cast of Characters Christmas Tree Jazz Trio Silent Night – Cast of Characters Just Walkin' – Ryan Saranich Uptown Lovers - What's the Big Deal References The Pagan Origins of Christmas: Saturnalia, Yule, and Other Pre-Christian Traditions | History Cooperative Wikipedia on "The war on Christmas" and "Wassailing" and "Syncretism" - ChatGPT Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

In this episode of The Science of Creativity, Keith Sawyer talks with Dr. Hansika Kapoor about the psychology of dark creativity — how the same cognitive processes that generate brilliant ideas can also lead to deception, manipulation, or harm. Kapoor explains that creativity itself is amoral: it can be directed toward good or bad outcomes depending on intent and context. Their conversation spans the neuroscience of lying, the overlap between moral and creative cognition, and the role of cultural factors in shaping creative expression. They also discuss recent findings on the "art bias," on using creativity tests in college admissions, and about the cultural practice of jugard in Indian culture. Dr. Kapoor has been a Research Author at the Department of Psychology, Monk Prayogshala, Mumbai since July 2011. Monk Prayogshala is an independent not-for-profit academic research institute, striving to improve the academic research environment in India, starting with the social sciences. She is also an Affiliate at the Neag School of Education at the University of Connecticut. Her work has been published in several international peer-reviewed academic journals, such as Creativity Research Journal, Thinking Skills and Creativity, and Personality and Individual Differences (here's her CV). She also regularly contribute to popular media publications, including Psychology Today, Mint, and The Wire (complete list). Key topics include: • The concept of dark creativity and its ethical implications • Creativity, deception, and moral reasoning in the brain • Cultural perspectives on creativity in India and the idea of jugard • Creativity as a predictor of educational success • The "art bias" and everyday creativity For additional information: Dr. Kapoor's web site Dr. Kapoor's Psychology Today blog Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Based in New York City, Carol prefers to leave the studio and seek out the immediacy of city life, whether sidewalks, parks, boxing studios, or Coney Island. In this conversation, Carol Fabricatore shares her extensive experience as a professional illustrator and how she teaches advanced MFA students to advance on their creative journey. She talks about the mystery of capturing motion and energy in drawing, the role of fearlessness in artistic practice, and the transformative journey of students in MFA programs. She emphasizes the value of leaving the computer and drawing by hand, the necessity of experimenting and taking risks, and the significance of narrative and storytelling in art. Carol encourages even experienced artists to explore beyond their comfort zones, leave their existing style behind, and pursue a creative journey toward new ways of seeing and working. Carol began her career in editorial and book illustration, with work appearing in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Chicago Tribune. Over the years, her practice has expanded into fine art, where she combines acrylic and gouache to capture both the complexity and vulnerability of human experience. With a BFA from Parsons School of Design and an MFA from the School of Visual Arts, Carol has spent more than two decades teaching narrative drawing. For additional information: Carol's web site Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich   Copyright (c) 2026 Keith Sawyer

Matthew Worwood is a full-time Digital Media Design faculty member at the University of Connecticut. He has research interests in Creativity, Design Thinking, and Co-Creativity using Generative AI tools and Digital Media. Outside of his research, Matthew is an experienced learning experience designer who works closely with K-12 educators on professional growth and teacher creativity. He is co-host of the Fueling Creativity in Education Podcast and has produced two low-budget documentary films that explore topics related to creativity in education. For further information: Teacher Roundtables: Teacher Roundtables – Voices in Education Worwood Classroom web site: Worwood Classroom - Worwood Classroom Learning to think inside the box with Teacher Creativity: Teacher Creativity - Worwood Classroom with online tutorial videos Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

In this conversation, Lorne Buchman discusses his book Make to Know: From Spaces of Uncertainty to Creative Discovery. It's based on interviews he did with creators in a range of fields. These interviews connect with the same themes in my book Learning to See--powerful  features of creativity like iteration, uncertainty, engaging with materials, and an improvisational dialogue with the unfolding work. He shares his personal journey in discovering creativity, emphasizing the importance of engaging with uncertainty and the role of improvisation in art and life. Buchman highlights how constraints can stimulate creativity, and the significance of fostering a dialogue with materials in the creative process.  For 13 years, Lorne Buchman was the president of one of the top art and design schools, ArtCenter College of Design, and he's now the President Emeritus. He's been a theater director, a dramatic literature professor, and the author of a book on filmic adaptations of Shakespeare's plays. He hosts the podcast Change Lab. For more information: Lorne Buchman's web site: Lorne Buchman - ikar Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Kara Rooney is a successful New York multidisciplinary artist who creates installation performances and videos, as well as sculpture, painting, and photography. She's had numerous solo and group shows and performances, with many in New York City but also in Mexico, Italy, and Czechoslovakia. She's a published critic with articles in the New York Times and catalog essays, and she's curated many exhibitions.  In this conversation, we talk about the complexities of being an artist. Kara talks about the challenge of finding one's voice and the importance of discipline and studio time. With her experience teaching at the School of Visual Arts, she tells us how she designs assignments in studio classes, and in particular, the value of constraints in fostering creativity.  For further information: Kara's web site: Kara L. Rooney | Home  The book Learning to See, about art and design education: www.learningtosee.net Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Steve DeFrank is a top New York painter with numerous one-person exhibitions and group exhibitions. His solo exhibitions include Clementine Gallery in New York, and the Clifford Smith Gallery in Boston. His group shows include the Smithsonian Institute's National Portrait Gallery and The National Arts Club in New York, and many others. His work has been reviewed in The New York Times, in The New Yorker, and many others. He's been a Visiting Artist at Cornell University, the Massachusetts College of Art, and he currently teaches at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, where he's taught sculpture, new media art, painting, drawing, and other courses. In this conversation, DeFrank shares his insights on teaching creativity and the artistic process. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on the journey of creativity rather than the end product, encouraging students to embrace uncertainty and anxiety as part of their artistic growth. DeFrank discusses the significance of developing an "artistic eye" and the challenges students face in learning to see and interpret the world around them. He reflects on the transformative experience of the foundation year for art students and the ongoing dialogue between the artist's hand and eye. This is a brilliant inside view of a process-oriented approach to art that values exploration and personal expression. For additional information: Steve's web site: https://www.stevedefrank.com/ The book Learning to See, with many quotations from Steve and from other SVA artists and designers: www.learningtosee.net  Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Scott Barry Kaufman is an influential psychologist, creativity researcher, podcaster, and best-selling book author. In this episode, we explore themes such as the messy nature of creative minds, the importance of incubation, and the role of daydreaming. We discuss the brain's imagination network and the balance between conscious and unconscious processes in fostering creativity. Scott emphasizes the significance of psychological flexibility and the ability to embrace uncertainty, while also highlighting the value of sensitivity in the creative process. Our discussion culminates in practical advice for enhancing creativity through openness to experience and reflective practices. For more information: Scott's web site Scott's book Wired to Create: Unraveling the Mysteries of the Creative Mind Scott's new book Rise Above Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Kelly Leonard has been involved with improv comedy for almost 40 years. He's worked with actors and comedians including Stephen Colbert, Tina Fey, Keegan Michael Key, Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler. He started working at the Second City Theater in Chicago in 1988, eventually becoming producer in 1992, and later, taking on roles and titles including Executive Director, Executive Vice President, and Creative Adviser. Since 2016, he's been Vice President of Creative Strategy, Innovation, and Business Development. He's produced hundreds of original revues. His 2015 book Yes, And received rave reviews in Vanity Fair and the Washington Post. He co-leads a new partnership with Booth School at the University of Chicago that studies behavioral science through the lens of improvisation. He is a popular speaker, appearing at Aspen Ideas Festival, Chicago Ideas Week and TEDxBroadway and hosts the Second City Works/WGN Podcast "Getting to Yes, And."  For additional information: Kelly's web site The book Yes, And Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer  

Dr. Adam Green is an expert in brain research and neurostimulation of creativity. He also studies how the use of AI influences creativity in the user. Spoiler alert: Using AI often reduces creativity. He's the Director of the Laboratory for Relational Cognition at Georgetown University, a founder and former president of The Society for the Neuroscience of Creativity, and Editor-In-Chief at the Creativity Research Journal. His main interest is in human creative intelligence and especially in understanding how neural processes constitute our best ideas. Adam's work includes research into endogenous neural mechanisms and exogenous neurostimulation that support creative relational reasoning, as well as research on the neuroscience of teaching and learning in real-world educational contexts. His research has been reported on NBC, CNN, BBC, NPR, and in print in the Times of London, Scientific American, Wired, Fast Company, and many others. For More Information: Keith's book Learning to See: Inside the World's Leading Art and Design Schools Dr. Adam Green at The Laboratory for Relational Cognition at Georgetown University Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Scott Thorp is an artist, writer and educator specializing in creativity. He's a professor at Augusta University, and is the Chair of the Department of Art and Design and the Associate Vice President for Interdisciplinary Research. Scott earned his MFA in multi-disciplinary art from the Maryland Institute College of Art. In addition to his artistic practice, he was a regular contributor to the international art magazine, ArtPulse, where he wrote about technology-based, contemporary artists. Before Augusta University, he was a professor at Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD) from 2005 to 2015, where he was the Design Coordinator and he designed and taught the course "Creative Thinking Strategies." Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle is a Senior Research Scientist at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. Her work has been featured in the Harvard Business Review, US News, Science Daily, and others, and she is a regular contributor to Psychology Today and Creativity Post. Zorana studies many aspects of the creative process, including idea generation but also creative mindsets, creative self-efficacy, and the role of emotions in creativity. Her new book is called The Creativity Choice: The Science of Making Decisions to Turn Ideas into Action. She argues that creativity is a choice--not only choosing in some abstract general way, but she gives advice about how to make creative choices throughout the creative process, from the first idea to the development of the idea. In this interview, she talks about creative mindsets, creative self-efficacy, and harnessing and managing your emotions to maximize creativity. For more information: Zorana Ivcevic Pringle's web site Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2024 Keith Sawyer

Dr. Jonathan Feinstein, a professor at Yale University, studies the developmental paths of creative individuals, including entrepreneurs, inventors, artists and scientists. His book Creativity in Large-Scale Contexts was published in 2023. He is also the author of The Nature of Creative Development (2006). His current work focuses on models of creative engagement, centering on guidance, learning, opportunities, and paths of development. What do we choose to learn and explore as we develop our creative interests and passions? What opportunities arise, which projects do we pursue? His approach emphasizes the rich diverse patterns of development, unfolding over a few years or a lifetime. On top of all this, he is an expert in the field of tax compliance and the analysis of audit and detection processes. At Yale, he teaches core statistics and runs the math book camp. For more information: Dr. Feinstein's web site at Yale University Creativity in Large-Scale Contexts: Guiding Creative Engagement and Exploration, from Stanford University Press. The Nature of Creative Development, from Stanford University Press. Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2024 Keith Sawyer

Everyone who works in television and movie comedy knows Charna Halpern. She's trained thousands of actors, writers, and producers at her Chicago theater, founded in 1981, called the iO theater. In this episode, Charna tells personal and funny stories about actors from Chris Farley and Neil Flynn to Tina Fey and Amy Poehler. Along with actor and director Del Close, Charna invented modern improvisational theater in the 1980s. The art form known as long form improvisation—a 20 or 30-minute fully improvised one-act play—was developed at the iO theater, and is still found on their stage at seven nights a week at 1501 N. Kingsbury Street in Chicago. Charna is one of the best-known and best-loved people in comedy because she developed a system for training actors how to improvise together. Her training takes a full year and it's so effective that TV producers, like Lorne Michaels, regularly visit iO theater to audition the actors who've graduated from the program. Sometimes on Saturday Night Live, every actor was once at the iO theater. Charna created a family, a community, that she lovingly calls "my people." Here are just a few of the famous actors and writers who we talk about in this episode (in order of mention): Lorne Michaels; Cecily Strong; Tina Fey; Amy Poehler; Mike Myers; Vanessa Bayer; Adam McKay; Brian Stack; Stephen Colbert; David Koechner; Rachel Dratch; Chris Farley; Sarah Silverman; Stephanie Ware; Neil Flynn; Larry David; Seth Myers; John Lutz; Matt Walsh; Tim Meadows. She even tells a story about how she let Adam McKay sleep on her couch before he was famous because he couldn't afford to stay in Chicago. When I was doing my research on improvisation in the early 1990s, the theater was called "Improv Olympic" and only later renamed "iO." Don't tell anyone I said that.  For more information: iO theater. https://ioimprov.com/ Truth in Comedy. Charna Halpern, Del Close, Kim Howard Johnson. Art by Committee. Charna Halpern. Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich   Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Dr. Mark Runco is a professor and is the Director of Creativity Research and Programming at Southern Oregon University. Over 35 years ago, he founded an influential scientific journal called The Creativity Research Journal and he was the editor of that journal until 2020. He's published books that are widely read by creativity researchers such as his college textbook, Creativity: Research, Development, and Practice (three editions), The Creativity Research Handbook (1997, 2011, 2012), and the very first Encyclopedia of Creativity in 1999. He's known for his studies of core topics in creativity research including problem finding, assessment, and divergent thinking. His recent writings are critical of the widespread claim that Gen AI is creative. He argues that creativity is unique to humans, and we're going to talk about that today. Mark developed and still teaches seminars on creativity, including "Creativity: What It Is and What It Is Not," "The Assessment of Creativity," "Creative Cognition," and "Social Contexts for Creativity." He is past president of Division 10 (Psychology, Art, Creativity, and Aesthetics) of the American Psychological Association. Episodes 23 and 24 of this podcast are about the annual conference of Division 10. Additional information: Mark Runco's web site First edition of Encyclopedia of Creativity, 1999 (with Steven Pritzer) Second edition, 2011 (with Steven Pritzker) Creativity: Research, Development, and Practice (third edition, 2023) The Creativity Research Handbook (third edition, 2012) Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich   Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Steve Heller is arguably the world's best-known design educator, with over 200 books on graphic design, illustration, and political art. I interviewed him for my 2025 book Learning to See. His books include Design Literacy: Understanding Graphic Design; Teaching Graphic Design; and The Education of an Illustrator (with Marshall Arisman). He's spent most of his career at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, where he's now the Special Assistant to the President and the Co-Founder and Co-Chair Emeritus of the MFA Design Department. He's won numerous awards including Cooper-Hewitt's National Design Mind Award; Smithsonian Design Museum; National Endowment for the Arts; AIGA Medal for Lifetime Achievement; and many others. For 33 years, he was an art director at the New York Times and the New York Times Book Review. In this interview, he gives amazing insights about how to teach graphic design and illustration. For more information:  Steve Heller's web site Book: Teaching Graphic Design Book: The Education of an Illustrator Sawyer's book Learning to See Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

The much-anticipated art and design book Learning to See was just published by MIT Press! In this episode, author Keith Sawyer talks with Amy Climer about his new book. Learning to See is an engaging and profound account of how professional artists and designers create and how they teach others to do it. Keith spent over ten years interviewing a hundred professors who've taught in 50 different colleges, universities, and institutes. He also interviewed students to learn about the personal transformation they go through as they learn to see and think like successful creative professionals. Learning to See describes project assignments and studio class sessions in over 20 different disciplines, revealing the shared essence of art and design. Learning to See tells the stories of the professional artists and designers who teach in BFA and MFA programs throughout the U.S., including top schools in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles. These articulate and experienced educators share their insights about how to guide younger artists and designers to realize their full creative potential. In the best BFA and MFA programs, students learn to see things they couldn't see before, and they learn to think in new ways. In Learning to See, you meet professors and students in over 20 different art and design disciplines—from painting and sculpture to graphic design and architecture. By reading what they say in their conversations and their classrooms, you learn that becoming an artist or designer is not about learning to draw or sew or weld—it is about learning to see. This book is for anyone who wants to better understand how professional artists and designers see, think, and make. Notes Book web site: Learning to See Keith Sawyer's web site: www.keithsawyer.com Amy Climer's web site: www.climerconsulting.com  Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich   Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

We're going to leave the podcast studio and travel to Yale University for the 2025 creativity research conference! This is the second of two episodes bringing you cutting-edge research from the conference. This episode has five interviews with leading-edge creativity researchers. There were over two hundred researchers at Yale, from around the world, including Japan, India, Europe, and South America. This is the official American Psychological Association creativity research conference. In this episode, you'll hear about research that is SO NEW that it hasn't even been published yet. Top creativity researchers attend this conference each year so that they can find out about the latest research findings, and now you can hear about it, too. This episode takes you to the conference room floor. Listen to this episode and also the last one, because there is too much great research for just one episode! Dr. Sawyer invited five researchers to tell us about their latest research findings, and there are six more in the last episode. Chapters 0:00 Intro 0:35 Paul Silvia - Co-organizer of the conference 8:04 Hansika Kapoor - Dark creativity 17:41 Takeshi Okada - Living with art 27:00 Interlude 27:51 Angie Miller - Strategic National Arts Alumni Program 36:48 Taylor Worley - Slow looking 51:45 Outro 55:58 Closer Resources Conference web site Conference detailed schedule of presentations Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

We're going to leave the podcast studio and travel to Yale University for the 2025 creativity research conference! This episode has six interviews with leading-edge creativity researchers and the next episode has five more. There were over two hundred researchers at Yale, from around the world, including Japan, India, Europe, and South America. This is the official American Psychological Association creativity research conference. In this episode, you'll hear about research that is SO NEW that it hasn't even been published yet. Top creativity researchers attend this conference each year so that they can find out about the latest research findings, and now you can hear about it, too. This episode takes you to the conference room floor. Listen to this episode and the next one, because there is too much great research for just one episode! Dr. Sawyer invited six researchers to tell us about their latest research findings, and there are five more in the next episode. Chapters 1:49 Conference welcome from Roni Reiter-Palmon 2:49 Kristin Lamb: Imagination and Creativity 9:40 Ahmad Rahimi: Using Large Language Models to Assess Student Creativity with Games 13:43 Interlude 14:41 Shoshi Kesari: Improv Theater with Adults 20:34 Denis Dumas: Children and the balance between originality and appropriateness 31:15 Michael Mumford: Creativity research from the 1970s to today 42:11 Outro 43:19 Closer Resources Conference web site Conference detailed schedule of presentations Music by license from SoundStripe: "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer