Deviate

“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include: The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke 2023: Walking, by Dan Wang Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00) Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier. Travel can be a way to see the future (Deviate episode) Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Wired (technology magazine) The Cotswolds (region in central Southwest England) Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45) Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts. Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs (book) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club) Hoka (brand of walking shoes) Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00) Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020. Seeking rural places (Deviate episode) Jiangxi (Chinese province) Guangdong (Chinese province) Yunnan (Chinese province) Salzburg (city in Austria) The Vulnerable Observer, by Ruth Behar (book) Anna Greenspan (media professor) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) Daniel Pink (46:00-52:00) Daniel Pink is a best-selling author of books on work, business, and life. His “Why Not?” project in collaboration with the Washington Post to aims to jolt America’s imagination about possibilities. When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, by Daniel Pink (book) Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, by Daniel Pink (book) The Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink (book) Craig Mod (52:00-69:00) Craig Mod is an author and photographer who has written and photographed about his walks across Japan, his love of pizza toast, and his life in Japan. Walk Japan (tour company) Rich Roll (ultra-endurance athlete) The Glorious Boredom of My Walk in Japan, by Craig Mod (essay) Kissa by Kissa, by Craig Mod (book) Things Become Other Things, by Craid Mod (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We ‘massage’ the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn’t conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the “micro” and the “macro” elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don’t drive the narrative forward, and what it’s like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how to best write about family members (47:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode) Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode) Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist) “Chasing the Black Pearl,” by Andrew McCarthy (Tahiti article) Gustav Mahler (classical composer) Don George (travel writer and editor) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) “A Slice of Paradise,” by Andrew McCarthy (Hawaii article) “A Slice of Ireland,” by Andrew McCarthy (Ireland article) “Steeped in Darjeeling,” by Andrew McCarthy (India article) Osprey (species of bird) Finisterre (peninsula in Spain) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson (book) Less than Zero (1987 film starring Andrew McCarthy) Nut graph (journalism term) Joan Didion (American writer) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Claude Chabrol (French film director) Henry Miller (American novelist) Alison Steele (New York DJ known as “The Nightbird”) Vin Scelsa (broadcaster) Oliver Sacks (British neurologist and writer) Rob Lowe (American “Brat Pack” actor) “Courting Vienna,” by Andrew McCarthy (Austria article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can’t imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); “rights of access,” and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the “big here” versus the “small here” (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace “stillness” during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00). Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) is an English adventurer, author and motivational speaker. He is responsible for the rise of the idea of the microadventure – short, local, accessible adventures. His newest book, out this year, is Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildness. Notable Links: Microadventure (local travel initiative) Industrial farming (agriculture practice) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Rewilding (conservation biology) Korean DMZ (rewilded demilitarized zone) Seek (nature identification app) Merlin Bird ID (birdsong identification app) On Looking, by Alexandra Horowitz (book) Henry David Thoreau (naturalist and essayist) Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, by Annie Dillard (book) Mary Oliver (naturalist and poet) Right of way (public right to hike on private land) A Journey Around My Room, by Xavier de Maistre (book) Traveling in Place, by Bernd Stiegler (book) An Attempt at Exhausting a Place in Paris, by Georges Perec (book) Dustsceawung (Old English term for “contemplating dust”) Black Death (14th century pandemic) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“I hate the Kansas City Chiefs with a passion reserved only for things that I love.” —Tod Goldberg In this episode of Deviate, Rolf shares his 2002 NPR “Savvy Traveler” dispatch about trying to watch the Super Bowl in Thailand (3:00); then he and Tod Goldberg discuss how they became NFL football fans as kids in the 1970s, and how this affected their fandom later in life (8:00); how it could be difficult in the days before the Internet for kids to find information about NFL teams and players, and which books they read about the early days of pro football (23:00); the origins of the San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs in upstart pro leagues, their more recent fortunes in the NFL, and how the last Chiefs Super Bowl appearance was nine months before Rolf was born (38:30); on watching Super Bowls from overseas and following the Chiefs (or 49ers) as adults, the strengths of the 2020 Chiefs and 49ers teams, and the emotional stakes of Super Bowl LIV (49:00); how the Chiefs have dominated the AFC in the four years since 2020, how this success has affected people’s perception of them, and how the Chiefs’ Midwesternness makes them different from other NFL dynasties (1:05:30); the role superstition plays in sports fandom, how some team fandom comes out of love for individual players, how fandom creates a leveling of social classes, and the merits of “fair weather” fandom (1:10:30). Novelist Tod Goldberg (@todgoldberg) is the New York Times bestselling author of over a dozen books, most notably the Gangsterland series of crime novels. He is also the director of the University of California-Riverside Palm Desert Low-Residency MFA. NFL games and players: Super Bowl LIV (2020 KC Chiefs versus SF 49ers NFL title game) Rolf Benirschke (San Diego Chargers placekicker in the 1980s) The Catch (touchdown reception in the 1981 NFC Championship Game) Christian “Nigerian Nightmare” Okoye (Chiefs fullback in the 1980s) Mike Mercer (NFL punter in the 1960s) Marshall Goldberg (Jewish Chicago Cardinals running back in the 1940s) 1934 NFL Championship Game, aka the “Sneakers Game” (title game) 1940 NFL Championship Game, (73-0 Bears-Giants title game) Steve Grogan (New England Patriots quarterback in the 1980s) Ed “Too Tall” Jones (Cowboys defensive end in the 1980s) Super Bowl IV (1970 Chiefs versus Vikings NFL title game) NFL Films: Super Bowl IV Highlights (sports documentary) Hank Stram (Chiefs coach from 1960-1974) Len Dawson (Chiefs quarterback in the 1960s and 1970s) Todd Blackledge (Chiefs 1983 draft-pick quarterback) Joe Montana (quarterback who won four Super Bowls with the 49ers) Super Bowl XLVII (2013 Ravens versus 49ers NFL title game) Patrick Mahomes (current Chiefs quarterback) Andy Reid (current Chiefs head coach) Jimmy Garoppolo (former 49ers quarterback) Super Bowl XVI (1981 49ers versus Bengals NFL title game) Jet Chip Wasp (pass play that helped the Chiefs win Super Bowl LIV) Other links: “Pandemic Love: A personal history of nostalgia“ Deviate episode 142) Kumbh Mela (Indian Hindu pilgrimage celebrated every 12 years) Tod Goldberg on why sports is so emotionally affecting (Deviate episode) Matthew Zapruder (American poet and editor) West Coast offense (passing-oriented football strategy) Candlestick Park (former stadium that hosted San Francisco 49ers games) Tom Landry, Existentialist, Dead at 75, by Sarah Vowell (essay) Tecmo Bowl (1980s football video game) Sears Christmas Wish Book was great American literature (Deviate episode) Nerf (toy brand that made foam footballs) Championship: The NFL Title Games Plus Super Bowl, Jerry Izenberg (book) The Super Bowl Shuffle (rap song performed by the 1985 Chicago Bears) All-America Football Conference (professional football league from 1946-49) Los Angeles Dons (football team in the AAFC) American Football League (professional football league from 1960-69) Battle of New Orleans (1815 battle between British and US armies) Former Minnesota quarterback Joe Kapp gets in a fight (video) Lloyd C. A. Wells (pioneering scout for the Chiefs in the 1960s) Historically black colleges (pre-Civil Rights universities for African-Americans) Edgar Allen Poe (Baltimore poet whose poem inspired the Ravens mascot) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals v. A’s baseball game) “A Native American football team beat the 1927 NFL Giants” (Deviate episode) “How Mahomes Made 3rd & 15 Magic in Super Bowl LIV” (NFL Films doc) Ken Griffey Jr. (American baseball player) Lambeau Field (Sports stadium in Green Bay) Class: A Guide Through the American Status System, by Paul Fussell (book) 2015 World Series (baseball championship won by the Kansas City Royals) Golden State Warriors (NBA team based in San Francisco) Marshall Goldberg in 1940 (left), and Tod Goldberg in 2020 (right) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Billionaires can’t take a week off? What’s the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?”  –Tim Ferriss In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what “wealth” is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and “efficiency” is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the “beginner’s mind,” and tips for writing and creativity (54:00);  the merits of going on foot and “getting lost” on the road, and how this figured into Rolf’s writing classes (1:17:00); notions of “success,” and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one’s way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf’s recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00); Tim Ferriss (@tferriss) is a best-selling author and podcaster. General Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s summer writing classes) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (audiobook) The Game Camera (short film cowritten by Rolf and Kristen Bush) Tim Ferriss on how to create a successful podcast (Deviate episode) Arnold Schwarzenegger on The Tim Ferriss Show LeBron James on The Tim Ferriss Show Cheryl Strayed on The Tim Ferriss Show Jerry Seinfeld on The Tim Ferriss Show Tortuga (bags design for long-term travel) Unbound Merino (travel clothing company) AirTreks (round-the-world flight planner) BootsnAll (online travel community) Interview Links: Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Man bites dog (aphorism about journalism) “War is God’s way of teaching Americans geography” (quote) Beginner’s mind (attitude of openness) Adaptation (2002 film) Anne Lamott (American author) Kurt Vonnegut (American author) The Hero’s Adventure with Joseph Campbell (podcast remix) Flâneur (urban wanderer) Situationists (1960s social and artistic movement) Psychogeography (exploration strategy) Dave Chappelle (comedian) John Hughes (filmmaker) Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah (American essayist) Grizzly Man (2005 documentary film) Werner Herzog Reads Curious George (satire) Con Air (1997 film) Aimee Nezhukumatathil (poet) Naomi Shihab Nye (poet) Major Jackson (poet) Donald Hall (poet) Books mentioned: Walden, by Henry David Thoreau (book) The 4-Hour Work Week, by Tim Ferriss (book) The Art of Nonfiction, by Ayn Rand (book) Writing Tools, by Roy Peter Clark (book) To Show and to Tell, by Phillip Lopate (book) Screenplay, by Syd Field (book) Story, by Robert McKee (book) Save the Cat, by Blake Snyder (book) A Moveable Feast, by Ernest Hemingway (book) Leaves of Grass, by Walk Whitman (book) Good Hope Road, by Stuart Dischell (poetry) Alien vs. Predator, by Michael Robbins (poetry) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Sometimes it’s good to sit still and let a place move through you instead of you moving through a place.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how one can be vulnerable to new experiences on the road instead of micromanaging an itinerary (2:00); how monuments to mortality help us think of travel moments in an existential way (11:30); how we can take the mindset of travel back home with us when the journey is over, and how the experience of travel changes as you age (20:00); the role of ritual and ceremony in slow travel, and the simple things we have in common with our host cultures (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Cotswolds (region in central-southwest England) Lake Maninjau (caldera lake in West Sumatra, Indonesia) Rendille people (Cushitic-speaking ethnic group in northern Kenya) Locals often perform a distilled version of their culture (Kenya dispatch) Père Lachaise Cemetery (largest cemetery in Paris) Frédéric Chopin (19th century Polish composer and pianist) The Catacombs (underground ossuaries in Paris) Mount Kenya (second-highest peak in Africa) What we hope to see in places can be at odds with reality (Mentawai dispatch) Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) Isiah Pacheco (Kansas City Chiefs running back from Rutgers) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and writer) Richard Rohr (American Franciscan priest and writer) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club based out of Nairobi) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“When asked to give advice to young people looking to become travel writers, I invariably tell them to go – alone – and live in a country where they don’t speak the language.”  –Thomas Swick In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about the thematic limitations of memoir writing, and the early stages of Tom’s career as a journalist (2:00); his decision to move to Poland for love, and his experiences living in Warsaw around the time of the Solidarity movement (9:30); the task of writing a travel memoir about events that happened decades ago, and how the American news cycles tends to ignore international matters (15:00); the task of getting started in travel writing in the twenty-first century (21:00); and how travel writers have the ability to bring a fresh eye to places that people who live there might miss (26:00). Thomas Swick (@roostertie) is an author and writer of The Joys of Travel, A Way to See the World, and Unquiet Days. His newest book is Falling into Place: A Story of Love, Poland, and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Misery memoir (literary genre focusing on trauma) Aix-en-Provence (city in France) Alsace (region of eastern France) Trenton Times (newspaper in New Jersey) Watergate (political scandal) David Maraniss (American journalist and author) Pope John Paul II (Poland-born Catholic pope) Solidarity (Polish anti-authoritarian movement) Martial law in Poland (early 1980s reaction to Solidarity) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and author) Tim Cahill (American travel and adventure writer) Dave Barry (American humorist and author) Holiday Magazine (postwar travel magazine) Granta (British literary magazine) Holidays in Hell, by P.J. O’Rourke (book) Colin Thubron (British travel writer) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate – which is a redo of episode 229, which didn’t air properly due to technical problems – Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour) White Zombie’s J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode) Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Not everyone who’s lucky is talented and not everyone who’s talented is lucky.”  –Tom Bissell In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about Tom’s lack of travel experience when he joined the Peace Corps, and how he dealt with his early failures (2:30); the role that luck (as well as craft and obsessive reading) has played in his writing career (8:00); how, as a writer, to turn real-life people, including yourself, into convincingly human and honest nonfiction “characters” (16:00); Tom “failures” as a writer, the challenges of screenwriting, and the difficulty of writing books that sell (38:30); the book that Tom is most proud of, and how to get out of the success/failure dichotomy as a creative person (47:00); plus a post-interview segment about drinking in Paris (56:00). Tom Bissell is an American author, journalist, critic, and screenwriter. He is the author of such books as Chasing the Sea, Apostle, God Lives in St. Petersburg, Extra Lives, and The Disaster Artist. Notable Links: Rolf’s Paris travel memoir workshops (annual classes) Salt and Fire (2016 Werner Herzog movie) Star Wars: Andor (TV series) Harper’s Magazine (literary publication) Aral Sea (endorheic lake in central Asia) Steven Soderbergh (American film director) Ryszard Kapuściński (Polish journalist and author) A Sense of Direction, by Gideon Lewis-Kraus (travel memoir) “War Zones for Idiots”, by Tom Bissell (essay) Lucasfilm (American film and TV company) Tony Gilroy (American screenwriter) Michael Clayton (2007 legal thriller movie) Greg Sestero (American actor and model) Tommy Wiseau (Polish-American filmmaker) The Room (film regarded as the worst movie ever made) Creative Types, by Tom Bissell (short story collection) The Father of All Things:, by Tom Bissell (memoir) Heraclitus (ancient Greek philosopher) Stoicism (school of Hellenistic philosophy) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (Russian writer and dissident) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour) White Zombie’s J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode) Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“One ironic anxiety of travel is that suddenly you’re living in ‘organic time’ and you’re not used to it.”  –Rolf Potts In this “vagabonding audio companion” episode of Deviate, remixed from Aaron Millar’s Armchair Explorer podcast, Rolf talks about his earliest travel dreams, and what compelled him to finally take a vagabonding dream trip around North America by van in his early twenties (2:00); how travel expectations and planning are often at odds with the joy of what happens spontaneously on the road (8:30); the delightful surprises Rolf found on a recent trip to Sumatra and the Mentawai Islands (11:30); Rolf’s experiences in Myanmar, and the importance of seeing time, rather than possessions, as our most important form of wealth in life (22:00); Rolf’s early experiences in Southeast Asia, and his monthlong boat journey down the Mekong River (31:00); and how, at its best, travel teaches us to pay attention to life itself (35:00). The Armchair Explorer podcast features adventure storytelling set to music and cinematic effects. Notable Links: Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Uinta Mountains (mountain range in Utah) Mardi Gras (annual celebration in New Orleans) Sumatra (island in Indonesia) “Travel in Sumatra is cheap and amazing” (dispatch) “Seeking crowds is better than crowd-sourcing” (dispatch) Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia) “Boredom is one of the greatest gifts of travel” (dispatch) Hornbill (tropical bird) Bessie Stringfield (20 century American motorcycle traveler) Bagan (UNESCO World Heritage Site in Myanmar) Mekong (river in Southeast Asia) “One Month on the Mekong,” by Rolf Potts (travel essay) Henry David Thoreau (American essayist and philosopher) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“A wonderful aspect of traveling by train is the transactional relationship between passengers who feed off one another, picking up tips, offering advice, guarding each other’s belongings, and generating a trust that is unique to railway travel.”  –Monisha Rajesh In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Monisha discuss how her interest in train-travel dates back to a series of journeys she took around India (1:30); her more recent experience of taking the Trans-Mongolian train across Russia and into Asia (14:00); what it was like to travel by train in North Korea, China, and Southeast Asia, and how they differ from European trains (28:00); what it was like to take trains across Canada and the United States, and which global trains Monisha likes best (45:00). Monisha Rajesh (@monisha_rajesh) is a travel journalist, and the author of Around India in 80 Trains, and Around the World in 80 Trains. She currently lives in London with her husband and two daughters. Notable Links: Indrail Pass (Indian rail-pass for foreign nationals) Saint Basil’s Cathedral (church in Moscow’s Red Square) Eurail Pass (rail-pass covering 33 European countries) Trans–Mongolian Railway (long-haul train route) Circum-Baikal Railway (railway in Russia’s Irkutsk region) War and Peace (novel by Leo Tolstoy) Game of Thrones (fantasy TV series) Korean State Railway (train system in North Korea) Southwest Chief (American Amtrak route) German Baptist Brethren (Anabaptist group) Qinghai–Tibet railway (Asian train route) Skeena (Canadian passenger train service) Mandovi Express (train route in India) Flight shaming (environmental social movement) Sunset Limited (American Amtrak route) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We live in an age where you can take a series short flights inside a country to speed things up. You end up going to more places, but you experience less, because you’re not really committed to that chicken bus full of really interesting people who want nothing more than to interact with you.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss the idiosyncrasies of crossing land borders and traveling overland (1:30); travelers’ tendency to take dishonest photos of places, and how tourist destinations bend to tourists’ expectations (8:00); the small inconveniences that keep travel interesting, even as we try to avoid them, and the idiosyncrasies of haggling overseas (14:00); how food can be a window into cultures and places for travelers (19:00); common scams that travelers encounter on the road (26:00); and the process of how Rolf assembled the meditations in The Vagabond’s Way, and the concept of “walking until your day becomes interesting” (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s Vagabond’s Way online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) YouCam Perfect (AI person-remover app) Kenny G (American smooth jazz saxophonist) Applebee’s (American restaurant chain) Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia) Brent Nelson sandwich (bar food in Lindsborg, Kansas) Turkish Knockout, by Rolf Potts (travel essay) Camille Dungy (poet and writer) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Domestic travel to rural places can be as important as international travel that is more obviously cross-cultural.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Marci talk about how the best trips are guided by curiosity about eight key things, rather than checklists (2:00); what Marci has learned from several decades of writing guidebooks to rural and small-town Kansas, and how these places are worth fighting for (10:30); how urban people can better experience rural places (17:00); using your five senses as a traveler, and other strategies for exploring the nuances of new places (26:30); and seeing places as “mysteries to be solved” (37:30). Marci Penner (@GetRuralKansas) is the executive director of the Kansas Sampler Foundation, which preserves and sustains rural culture by educating Kansans about Kansas and networking and supporting rural communities. She is involved with the PowerUp Movement (empowerment of those 21-39 who are rural by choice), the Big Rural Brainstorm, and the We Kan! Conference. Notable Links: Kansas Guidebook for Explorers, by Marci Penner and Wendee Rowe (guidebook) Physiographic Regions of Kansas (map) 8 Wonders of Kansas (travel destinations) Skeleton Coast (coast area of Namibia) Sterling (town in Kansas) Microaggressions (accidental verbal slights) Big Kansas Road Trip (rural tourism event) Daniel Boone (American frontiersman) New Almelo, Kansas (community in Norton County) Nicodemus, Kansas (town founded in 1871 by formerly enslaved Americans) Damar, Kansas (town founded in 1888 by French Canadians) Exodusters (movement of African-Americans to Kansas in 19th century) Boot Hill (cemetery in Dodge City, Kansas) Fencepost limestone (stone bed in the Great Plains) Cuba, Kansas (Czech-American rural community) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“A souvenir can be anything from a travel experience that honors a certain moment in your life, certifies the journey that took you there, and celebrates the confluence of people and places and actions that made it possible.”  – Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Suzanne talk about the ways souvenirs help narrate our travel experiences (2:00); the five different historical categories of travel souvenirs (7:30); the old trend of collecting hair and bones from famous people (15:00); what kinds of souvenirs are popular with travelers (20:00); which souvenirs Rolf sought when he visited Australia, and how some souvenirs make less sense when you get them home (24:30); then Rolf and Gina talk about childhood travel souvenirs (30:00); how photographs are a kind of souvenir, and how they create different memories than objects (36:00); and how the notion of “authenticity” in regard to souvenirs can be complicated (40:00). Suzanne Hill is the presenter of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s “Weekend Nightlife.” Gina Kaufmann is an essayist and radio journalist, most recently at KCUR, the NPR affiliate in Kansas City. Notable Links: Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) One Month on the Mekong, by Rolf Potts (essay) Grand Tour (17th- to 19th-century European travel rite) British Museum (public museum in London) Elgin Marbles (ancient Greek sculptures) Boxer Rebellion (anti-colonial uprising in China) Henry Crabb Robinson (19th century English diarist) John Keats (English Romantic poet) John Milton (English poet and intellectual) On Seeing a Lock of Milton’s Hair (Keats poem) Rue Mouffetard (street in Paris) Las Vegas Souvenir & Resort Gift Show (convention) World’s Columbian Exposition (world’s fair in Chicago) Omiyage (Japanese souvenir rite) Día de los Muertos (Mexican holiday) Père Lachaise (cemetery in Paris) Neil Armstrong (astronaut) Auschwitz (Nazi concentration camp in Poland) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In alien parts, we speak more simply, unencumbered by the histories that we carry around at home, and look more excitedly, with eyes of wonder.” —Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how he prepares for the book-club sessions (1:30); how the first days of one’s journeys have an optimistic energy and excitement, and how “culture shock” is a real thing (4:00); how travel can put us into a childlike mental state, and how travel expectations can lead to unfair disappointments (13:00); how food, even anomalous food, tells specific stories about places, and Rolf’s strategy for keeping a travel journal (21:30); how the “beaten path” is beaten for good reasons, but straying from it yields serendipitous rewards (31:00); and simple strategies for staying safe and dealing with burnout on the road (42:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book) Egeria (ancient Galician nun and pilgrim) Faroe Islands (North Atlantic archipelago) Culture shock (cross-cultural anxiety) Expatriate life in Korea (Deviate episode) Rick Steves (travel writer and TV host) Mary Oliver (American poet) Beginner’s Mind (spiritual attitude of openness) Whittier (city in southern California) Nottingham (city in England) Hippie trail (overland Asia route in 1960s and ’70s) Pulp Fiction (1994 Quentin Tarantino) H Mart (Korean supermarket chain) Lavinia Spalding on travel journaling (Deviate episode) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English travel writer and scholar) Commonplace book (compendium of learning) The Daily Stoic, by Ryan Holiday (book) On Trails, by Robert Moor (book) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) České Budějovice (city in the Czech Republic) Ranong (town in Thailand) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We do not just keep and collect things. We trouble ourselves to repurpose, create, and invent things just to carry, a little easier, those stories we cannot live without.” —Kendra Greene In this episode of Deviate, Rolf speaks to the directors of two very different museums — Dawn Hammat of the Eisenhower Presidential Library, Museum & Boyhood Home in Abilene, Kansas, and Greg Long of Long’s Collectible Showplace & Gift Shop in Salina, Kansas (0:00); what people are drawn to in a given museum, and how a kind of nostalgia drives what people look for there (5:30); the ways all museums change and adapt over time, and how museums can surprise their visitors (12:00). Notable Links: Dwight Eisenhower (34th president of the United States) Mamie Eisenhower (first lady of the US from 1953-61) Barbie (fashion doll) Hot Wheels (brand of toy car) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Ozzy Osbourne (rock singer) Wonder cabinets (early versions of museums) British Museum (national museum in London) Beanie babies (line of stuffed toys) Pez (brand of candy dispenser) Paint by numbers (popular painting kits) Nelson Rockefeller (businessman and politician) Ethel Merman (20th century actress and singer) World’s Largest Belt Buckle (attraction in Kansas) Greyhound Hall of Fame (museum in Kansas) Chisholm trail (19th century cattle-driving trail) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Quietly use travel to deepen your life, and to build stronger relationships – not only with other cultures, but with your home. Figure out ways to give back.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about how travel allows you to “waste your twenties” in a good way, and how Rolf has come to define “adventure” (2:00); how to plan travels in such a way as to leave room for spontaneity, and how to meet people on the road (8:00); how to communicate in a place where you don’t speak the local language, and how to be daring in trying new foods as you travel (15:30); Rolf’s travel experiences on the Laotian Mekong, on foot in the Libyan Desert, and by van in North America (25:00); how to balance the desire to see lots of places with the desire to get to know a few places well, and what it means to find “authentic” places (32:30); why slow journeys create richer experiences than hurried ones, and how to honor gestures of hospitality (42:30); how the experience of travel changes as you get older, and why making time is more important in life than making money (48:00). David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Bosintang (Korean dog-meat soup) Fried spider (Cambodian snack food) Beondegi (Korean silkworm street food) Doritos (American snack food) Snails as food Merengue (Dominican music and dance) Asturian gaita (Spanish bagpipe) One Month on the Mekong, by Rolf Potts (essay) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Elderhostel (educational travel for older adults) “The Loss of the Creature,” by Walker Percy (essay) Heraclitus (ancient Greek philosopher) Wall Street (1987 movie) Gap year (student sabbatical period) Wanderjahr (journeyman year for tradespeople) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Not every fearful decision I’ve made has been bad, but most of my bad decisions have been based in fear.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about the two halves of Andrew’s professional life – acting and travel writing – and his transformative first journey on the Camino de Santiago in 1994 (2:00); Andrew’s decision to return to the Camino after the pandemic with his 19-year-old son Sam, what it was like to walk for days at a time with Sam, and how being in the 1980s “Brat Pack” affected Andrew’s sense of self (11:30); how Sam’s attitude toward the walk changed over the course of the journey, and how Andrew knew he might be able to write a book about the experience (22:00); audience questions, including writing advice, what Sam thought of the book, and how travel can expand your view of the world (28:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy), who rose to fame as a teen actor during the John Hughes 80’s era, is a television director and writer of such books as The Long Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links: Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode) Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode) Pretty in Pink (1986 teen romantic comedy-drama) Lowell Thomas Awards (travel writing competition) John Hughes (American filmmaker) Molly Ringwald (American actress) Camino de Santaigo (pilgrimage route in Spain) Off the Road, by Jack Hitt (book about the Camino)) St. James the Great (Christian apostle) Oliver! (coming-of-age musical) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Brat Pack (cohort of 1980s teen actors) “Hollywood’s Brat Pack” (1985 New York article) Kansas (1988 film) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The truth is that our travel anticipations, and our memories, have a way of holding only the most striking parts of an experience—the parts that don’t cause burnout.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about travel journaling, and a journal Matt has designed for travelers (1:15); why travel burnout happens, and how Matt first experienced it on the road (4:30); why rest days are important to a journey, and why one shouldn’t over-plan one’s days on the road (10:00); how lingering in places allows you to develop a deeper relationship to those places, and how digital nomads can balance work and fun on the road (16:00); and how to create balance in your social-media habits as you travel (23:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $50 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Keeping a travel journal (Deviate episode) RememberYourTravels.com (travel journal) Experiencing Norway by hammock (dispatch) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s class in France) Digital nomadism (location-independent lifestyle) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.