In this episode Eric poses to Glenn a Mandela effect question concerning household cleaning products. After that, the guys celebrate the 4th of July holiday by welcoming their guests from Ireland. Four fingerprint examiners from Forensic Science Ireland (FSI), the national forensic lab in Ireland, join the podcast. The guests are Dr. Aoife Power, Dr. Craig Mullen, Mr. Columb Doherty, and Dr. Kim Connick. Glenn and the guests talk about their time at the recent European Academy of Forensic Science (EAFS) conference in Dublin in May 2025. The examiners from FSI discuss their research, posters, and presentations from EAFS. Eric is also curious about their new AFIS system and has lots of questions about their processes. The guests discuss forensic fingerprint practices in Ireland and especially working in their new national laboratory. Forensic Science Ireland: https://forensicscience.ie/ Dr. Kim Connick: kconnick@fsi.gov.ie
In this episode, the guys start with a product-based Mandela effect question. Then they welcome back long-time friend of the show and webmaster, Michael Whyte from the New South Wales police force in Australia. Michael has a question for Glenn and Eric, regarding latent-to-latent comparisons, using latent prints as 'proxy exemplars' when the exemplars are worse than the latent prints or incomplete, and various off-shoots of these questions. The guys discuss the theoretical basis and some of the legal issues that arise in both the U.S. and Australia.
In this episode, Eric stumps Glenn with a geography based Mandela Effect question. Then the guys welcome their guest commentator, Brendan Max, Public Defender and Chief of the Forensic Science Division in Chicago, Illinois. Eric, Glenn, and Brendan take a second look at the 2025 FBI/Noblis follow-up black box study for latent fingerprints. The guys had previously done a cursory review of the paper in Episode 282, and now wanted to dig in a bit into the appendices and take another look at some trends. Brendan offers his insights and shows that he’s pretty proficient with a spreadsheet too! The guys go back and forth discussing the strengths and limitations of the study and where the methodology and practice has likely improved since the original Black Box study (conducted in 2009). Article is available for free at: doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2025.112457
Glenn Langenburg and Eric Ray review two articles from Cell that focus on the genetic basis for ridge development and pattern formation. 'The developmental basis of fingerprint pattern formation and variation' by Glover, et al., and 'Limb development genes underlie variation in human fingerprint patterns' by Li, et al. Our understanding of these complex processes continues to grow, and these papers further support our field and our conclusions.
In this episode, Glenn and Eric start with a quick game of “A Truth, A Lie, and a Mandella Effect”. Then they pose a question from a listener regarding interest in a forum where listeners can go and discuss the episodes of the show, ask questions, and chat “amongst themselves”. Finally they get to the long awaited Noblis/FBI study “Black Box 2” latent fingerprint error rate study. This is a re-do of the 2011 black box study for latent fingerprint performance. This study “Accuracy and reproducibility of latent print decisions on comparisons from searches of an automated fingerprint identification system” by Hicklin, Richetelli, Taylor and Buscaglia (For Sci Intl, 370 (2025), 112457), reported the performance of 156 U.S. latent print examiner participants each reviewing about 100 latent prints/comparisons resulting in over 14,000 trials. The study reports numerous statistics of performance such as sensitivity (63%), specificity (70%), false positive error rate (0.2%), and false negative error rate (4.2%). The guys also discuss some important study design differences, plus there are a lot of data in the appendices. Finally they talk about the number of false positives made in the study (n=23) and the fact that 13 of those 23 were made by one participant and how that impacted the results. Article is available for free at: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2025.112457
Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg pay tribute to our colleague and friend. Kasey Wertheim passed away on March 7, 2025 and will be greatly missed. Please join us as we remember his legacy and contributions to the field of fingerprints and tell a few personal stories.
Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg pay tribute to our mentor and friend. Pat Wertheim recently passed and will be greatly missed. Please join us as we remember his legacy and tell a few stories.
In this episode Glenn and Eric catch up after some hectic travel from recent weather issues. They do some news updates and also Eric had advice for new Patreon subscribers. Then they play an Oscar-themed round of “A Truth, a Lie, and a Mandela Effect” because it is the weekend of the 2025 Oscars. Then the guys tackle a topic which has come up many times in the past, but they’ve never actually dived into before: Simultaneous Impressions. They talk about different scenarios that can occur such as: some impressions stand alone, none stand alone, aggregation of features, and physical gaps or voids in an impression. They review the famous Mass v. Patterson case from 2005 that started the initial controversy in the field. They also have a chance to discuss John Black’s JFI research article from 2006 and other source material on the subject. Reference: Black, J.P. Pilot Study: The Application of ACE-V to Simultaneous (Cluster) Impressions. Journal of Forensic Identification, 56(6) Dated: November/December 2006 Pages: 933-971.
In this first recorded episode of 2025, Eric and Glenn start with Eric being pedantic in his “A Truth, A Lie, and a Mandela Effect”. The guys catch up on New Year stuff and then launch into a review of a research paper from New South Wales, Australia, titled “How often do fingerprint examiners disagree in routine casework?” by O’Connor and Chapman (2024) from Forensic Science International. Eric first discusses some of the important differences in casework workflow and conclusions between Aussie examiners and U.S. examiners. Then they discuss the results of the paper and the significance of the findings. At the end, they discuss solutions and ideas for resolving conflict and ultimately find that conflicting results and examiner disagreements are a normal, expected, natural part of the examination process. Find the paper at: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2024.112139
Glenn and Eric interview Sarah Chu, director of policy and reform with the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice's (PCLJ) forensic science policy initiatives. Sarah breaks down her doctoral thesis on quality management and oversight in forensic science laboratories.
In this episode the guys discuss historical figures in the field of fingerprints. At the top of the episode Eric gives Glenn an Australian themed “A Truth, a Lie, and a Mandela Effect”. Glenn tells a couple of stories from his trip to London, which also inspired the topic for the episode. Because of Glenn’s time in Switzerland this fall reading old texts, he learned a lot about the early days of fingerprints. The guys discuss contributions, stories and cases from Juan Vucetich, Sir Francis Galton, Sir Henry Faulds, Sir Edward Henry, Alphonse Bertillon, Dr. Edmond Locard, and more!
The guys start out with a quick explanation of why Glenn’s sound is so bad (he’s in Switzerland recording). They also start the new “season”, post-IAI with a new game: "Truth, Lie, or Mandela Effect?" Eric talks about his fall conference junket and then the guys finally catch up on the IAI. They discuss their favorite lectures, workshops, and activities at the 2024 IAI Conference in Reno, NV. They summarize some of their standout lectures that they attended. Glenn then discusses how the Double Loop Podcast vendor booth went with Rebecca Coutant running it during the conference. Rebecca also was “Our Girl Friday”, doing her impromptu interviews with conference attendees.
Eric and Glenn are back from a little summer break, prepping for the 2024 IAI Conference in Reno. They do a final “Where in the Whorld?” game. Then they jump into a recent paper on “Inconclusive” decisions (Swofford, et al. (2024) “Inconclusive Decisions and Error Rates in Forensic Science”, Forensic Science International: Synergy (vol 8; 100472)) authored by several members of NIST. The paper proposes a method for computing and communicating error rates when “inconclusive” decisions are made. The paper also focuses on making clear distinctions between “method performance” versus “method conformance”. The guys discuss their views on the method and the implications the paper may have for fingerprint examiners and their agencies. Swofford, H. , Lund, S. , Iyer, H. , Butler, J. , Soons, J. , Thompson, R. , Desiderio, V. , Jones, J. and Ramotowski, R. (2024), Inconclusive Decisions and Error Rates in Forensic Science, Forensic Science International: Synergy, [online], https://doi.org/10.1016/j.fsisyn.2024.100472, https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=957335 (Accessed August 31, 2024) Link to open source paper here: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.fsisyn.2024.100472
Glenn and Eric are joined by Angela Hilliard to discuss her experiences with a cold case from the Pacific Northwest. Genetic genealogy provided a suspect's name from a cold case double homicide, and a latent palm print was left on the victim's van. Angela walks us through her initial erroneous exclusion, the subsequent identification, court testimony, and the resulting press coverage. A must-listen episode for examiners on how to handle erroneous conclusions, even in high-profile cases. (Apologies for the audio in this episode. We did not realize until later that some of audio was poorer quality than normal.)
This super-sized episode has the guys interviewing several people from a recent Expert Working Group on Human Factors in the discipline of DNA. Glenn starts by giving Eric his “Where in the Whorld” question and they catch up on some recent travels. Glenn also explains why this episode does NOT feature a continuation of the previous episode on the Peacemaker case, but instead pivots to a different DNA topic. In May 2024, NIJ/NIST released a Human Factors and Forensic DNA Interpretation report. (The) Niki Osborne, Ph.D., the project lead and contractor for NIST (Natl Institute of Standards and Technology) describes how the project came to be and how NIST selected the Expert Working Group (EWG). Then, two members of the EWG, Jarrah Kennedy, Assistant DNA Supervisor, Kansas City Police Crime Laboratory, and Michelle Madrid, DNA Technical Leader, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, discuss the various recommendations in the report. The group covers all sorts of fun topics within DNA discipline such bias, new software and computational approaches, activity level, implementation, enforcement, and so forth. The episode ends with Niki and Glenn discussing other disciplines and future reports. Links to the free report: Expert Working Group on Human Factors in Forensic DNA Interpretation (May 2024). Forensic DNA Interpretation and Human Factors: Improving Practice Through a Systems Approach. National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD, NIST IR 8503. http://doi.org/10.6028/NIST.IR.8503 https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2024/NIST.IR.8503.pdf Guests: Nikola Osborne, Ph.D., NIST Contractor, and Project Lead for the Expert Working Group. Jarrah Kennedy, Assistant DNA Supervisor, Kansas City Police Crime Laboratory Michelle Madrid, DNA Technical Leader, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department
Eric and Glenn start the episode with a Where in the Whorld that leads to a little catching up. Glenn was in NYC recently (saw the Harry Potter show on Broadway, indulging his “magician” side) and Eric has been doing the conference circuit. Eric is also soliciting fingerprint experts for a research project on ‘estimating image resolution’ based on ridge density. The guys also got a listener voicemail that they discuss (and roundly disagree with). Finally they discuss the main topic for the show, a homicide case and trial that Glenn testified in: South Dakota v. Jeremiah Peacemaker. Glenn covers his involvement and the fingerprint evidence. In the second half of the show, the guys welcome Anjali Ranadive, who was the DNA expert for the defense, to discuss the DNA evidence and testimony in the case. Both Anjali and Glenn had an opportunity to witness the DNA testimony at trial and were astounded by the “scientific conclusions” drawn, and testified to, by the DNA analyst. Contact Anjali Ranadive: scilawforensics@aol.com Day 1 of Trial https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-one/article_74b84328-d515-11ee-a210-8b7ef07e2631.html Day 2 of Trial https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-two/article_eb1531e4-d5e6-11ee-ac1c-f39cc7b07d9e.html Day 3 of Trial https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-three/article_6a7c27f2-d6b5-11ee-9124-3f5cf33a83bb.html#:~:text=The%20verdict%20is%20in%2C%20Jeremiah,on%20all%20counts%20of%20murder Day 4 of Trial https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-four---state-rests-its-case/article_46573850-d780-11ee-a368-573401987ead.html Day 5 of Trial https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-five/article_a1c7fbf2-d85c-11ee-8ef5-ef34bb7cdee9.html Day 6 of Trial https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-six/article_29b37812-daa5-11ee-912e-9bf06a02bb89.html Day 7 of Trial (Final Day) https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-seven---the-jury-is-out/article_b078ec24-db5e-11ee-bcfb-7b2eb5a1c73b.html Verdict Announced https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/the-verdict-is-in-jeremiah-peacemaker-is-found-not-guilty-on-all-counts-of-murder/article_85ff1e54-db7d-11ee-b58d-27963af509b4.html https://www.dakotanewsnow.com/2024/03/05/jeremiah-peacemaker-found-not-guilty-death-kendra-owen/
Today Eric and Glenn finish Part 2 on the 2023 Report of the Texas Forensic Science Commission dealing with a latent print case. They continue to discuss the TFSC report that followed an investigation into a complaint filed against the latent print contractor(s) in the Joseph Webster case. In part 2, the guys focus on Glenn's examination which concluded that the Webster palm mark was a complex mark and that 3 critical things will shape the conclusion rendered by an examiner: 1) which images were used; 2) which features were relied upon; 3) how the examiner applied the ACE-V methodology. Finally, they discuss the over 2 dozen recommendations that the Commission made for fingerprint examiners in Texas to follow in latent print examinations. www.txcourts.gov/media/1457617/fi…-as-of-12623.pdf
Today Eric and Glenn start Part 1 of a two-parter on the 2023 Report of the Texas Forensic Science Commission dealing with a latent print case. First the guys do some catching up and play Where in the Whorld. They also discuss an email from Simon Cole and inquire on the impact of the recent AI paper on fingerprints. Then they discuss the TFSC report that followed an investigation into a complaint filed against the latent print contractor(s) in the Joseph Webster case. The webster case was a homicide cold case that eventually broke with a CODIS hit and a subsequent apparent bloody palm print at the scene of the crime. Initially the palm print was not identified to Webster, but then after the CODIS hit occurred to Webster and a second person, the latent print evidence was re-visited in 2013, and an identification was declared (pursuant to reviewing additional palm print exemplars of Webster). Testimony occurred in 2016 by a project manager, but not any of the original examiners. In 2020, a contractor for the defense was hired to review the case and several examiners were unable to verify the identification. This conflict, as well as a review of the testimony, sparked a complaint to the TFSC in the case. The guys review the facts and details of the case in Part 1. Link to TFSC Report https://www.txcourts.gov/media/1457617/fir-complaint-2216-rsa-latent-prints-as-of-12623.pdf
Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg sit down for a chat with Steve Johnson about face examiners, face comparisons, and the IAI. Steve's background includes latent prints, forensic art, face comparison, crime scene, and many positions with the IAI. He shares the future of the face discipline and how the IAI is working towards a certification process.
Eric and Glenn host another guest from Australia in today’s episode. After another round of Where in the Whorld and a few stories from Eric’s childhood, the guys welcome Chloe George from New South Wales Police Force, Australia. Glenn saw Chloe present at IAFS, where her presentation on phalange pattern classification won best Oral (Presentation). Chloe introduces a system of phalange pattern classification first described by Marie Ploetz-Radmann in 1937. She walks us through the system and the 12 general pattern types in phalanges and then also shares her personal data and testing that she performed. A copy of her IAFS presentation can be found here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1yrUsOFM5alJV1rQcrTGXiQkDb-3DuWUO/edit#slide=id.p5