Bad At My Religion

Richard Ostler is a believing Latter-day Saint, a former bishop of a congregation of about 300 young single adults, and the host of Listen, Learn & Love, a podcast where LGBTQ members and others tell their own stories. At 65 he still sustains his church, and he still runs marathons to manage how much of it troubles him. The conversation starts with heavenly parents and a pre-earth life, then moves to what he has changed his mind about. Ten or twenty years ago he would have defended the priesthood ban. Now he calls it a mistake. He says the church's position on gay members is unsustainable, and he is privately praying for it to change, though he doubts it will happen in his lifetime. Josh presses him on where they differ: if doctrine moves with the politics of the day, why keep a strict framework at all, and how can someone be born good and also be told they are living in sin? They land on shame and what can replace it. Richard's God asks the prodigal son, "Tell me what you're learning." Real men have broken knees and see therapists. A marriage can hold two politics and raise six kids. "Zion," he says, "is unity in purpose, not unity in sameness." About Richard Ostler: Richard Ostler is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a married father of six, and 65. He hosts the Listen, Learn & Love podcast and writes on Substack about sensitive topics, including LGBTQ members, working through sin, and mental health challenges, to help people know God loves them. Listen, Learn & Love podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/listen-learn-love-hosted-by-richard-ostler/id1347971725Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/Website: https://papaostler.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/papa_ostlerFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.ostler.5 Chapters (00:00:00) - Intro(00:00:40) - The Mormon framework: heavenly parents and a pre-earth life(00:02:14) - A Catholic mother-in-law, Mass, and holy envy(00:03:50) - Feeling the Holy Spirit in a Church of England(00:07:05) - What the church says about other faiths(00:10:33) - Good at your religion, or a good human?(00:13:49) - Where did the spirits come from?(00:16:28) - Do religious divisions do more harm than good?(00:17:57) - Curiosity over conversion(00:20:44) - Jesus, doctrine, and Mormon politics(00:24:43) - The priesthood ban was a mistake(00:28:15) - Why keep a strict framework at all?(00:33:37) - Bonding over who we hate(00:36:32) - Shame, original sin, and being born clean(00:40:28) - Does sin exist? Gay members and the other shoe(00:44:57) - Could the doctrine change?(00:48:38) - Do revelations follow the politics?(00:53:18) - Can a church lead by staying neutral?(00:59:02) - A prophet for the whole earth, and unity in purpose(01:02:48) - Ser y estar, nuance, and worry for young men(01:09:23) - Purpose and young people(01:11:41) - The prodigal son and what a real man is(01:18:28) - One thing for the next 30 days(01:21:17) - Where to find Richard

Chris Shelton grew up in Scientology. His parents joined when he was three, he went on staff straight out of high school, and at 25 he signed the Sea Org's billion-year contract. He worked for the church for 25 years before he left in 2012, and within a year he had been declared a suppressive person and cut off from everyone he knew inside. Today he hosts the Speaking of Cults podcast, holds a master's degree in coercive control, and wrote What Now? A Practical Guide to Life After a Cult. This episode turns the show's question around. Most people are bad at their religion. Chris lived his all the way. He and Josh go through what Scientology teaches, from Dianetics and the reactive mind to thetans, the OT levels and Xenu, a name Chris never heard in 39 years inside. They talk about why smart people believe it, why certainty is the hook, how auditing produces a feeling of awe and then tells you what it means, and Josh's own years as a Pentecostal worship leader learning to move a room. Chris ends on where he stands now: no afterlife, the universe itself as the closest thing to God, and every answer held as the best one he has for that day. Josh ends with a question of his own: maybe the point was never being good at your religion at all. About Chris Shelton: Chris Shelton is a former cult member who escaped Scientology and now educates about coercive control and helps people recover from traumatic coercive experiences. He hosts the Speaking of Cults podcast and wrote What Now? A Practical Guide to Life After a Cult. Website: https://chrissheltonmsc.orgSpeaking of Cults on YouTube: https://youtube.com/@chrissheltonmscWhat Now? A Practical Guide to Life After a Cult: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GWJ2VXWV Chapters (00:00:00) - Intro(00:00:49) - Growing up in Scientology, 25 years on staff(00:04:27) - Leaving the Sea Org(00:09:25) - Declared a suppressive person(00:17:40) - Don't get fooled again: Carl Sagan and critical thinking(00:25:00) - Bad at your religion, or all in?(00:28:01) - A money-making scam: Hubbard and Dianetics(00:36:42) - Theta, thetans and the first Church of Scientology(00:42:08) - Fair game and moving the goalposts(00:48:29) - Why people want simple answers(00:51:11) - How can you be so sure?(00:59:44) - Thetans, bodies and four quadrillion years(01:07:35) - The Bridge, the OT levels and Xenu(01:16:55) - OT 15, Tom Cruise and the longest con(01:18:54) - Interfaith outreach and "Jesus is an implant"(01:26:00) - Euphoria: who interprets your experience(01:31:55) - Worship leaders, hypnosis and auditing(01:38:12) - David Miscavige(01:41:54) - Was any of it good?(01:49:13) - Life after certainty(01:58:07) - Where to find Chris, and a bigger question

Bill Reel converted to the LDS Church at 17, became a bishop at 29, and started a podcast while still bishop to defend the faith. He was, by every measure the church uses, very good at his religion. The research he did to help people stay is what took him out, and in 2018 the church excommunicated him for apostasy. Today he runs Mormon Discussion Inc., a nonprofit network of podcasts, and works as a trauma-informed coach for people leaving high-demand religion. Josh came in expecting Bill to turn the premise of the show on its head, and he does. Bill says you can be a really good Mormon without being a good human being, and that for years he was the first and not the second. They talk about a church run on appearances, the rule that it is wrong to criticize leaders even when the criticism is true, the documentary history that ended his faith, what happened to his family, and why he doesn't miss being certain. Where they land: Bill no longer believes in a personal God, but he loves the big questions and is sure of a few things it isn't. His advice for anyone, believer or doubter, is to watch for dogma and to go with the most rational answer until new information comes along. About Bill Reel: Bill Reel is the founder and executive director of Mormon Discussion Inc., a nonprofit focused on examining Mormonism, supporting faith transitions, and helping people rebuild meaningful lives after religious deconstruction. He is a longtime podcaster, public commentator, and certified somatic-informed trauma coach whose work explores religion, psychology, institutional accountability, and healing from high-demand systems. Mormon Discussion Inc.: https://mormondiscussions.org/YouTube: Mormon Discussion Inc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/MormonDiscussionsInc Chapters (00:00:00) - Intro(00:00:36) - Turning the show's premise on its head(00:01:06) - A non-religious kid falls for Mormonism at 17(00:03:32) - Bishop at 29(00:04:50) - Reading the critics before baptism(00:08:25) - How Mormonism differs from Christianity(00:13:45) - Married young, four kids(00:15:31) - Trust your feelings, not the facts(00:19:47) - Good at the religion, bad at being human(00:25:09) - A church about appearances(00:29:24) - Three heavens and exaltation(00:32:26) - What the gospel looks like on Sunday(00:37:00) - Wrong to criticize leaders, even if it's true(00:39:59) - A sitting bishop starts a podcast(00:43:28) - Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire, and excommunication(00:44:22) - When the harm can't be blamed on God(00:49:17) - His family left first(00:51:58) - Mixed-faith marriages(00:53:51) - The exodus from the church(00:56:29) - Documents versus faith(01:00:36) - Life after Mormonism(01:03:57) - Does he still believe in God?(01:07:00) - Morality without religion(01:13:22) - Can most people handle freedom?(01:17:11) - Helping people after deconstruction(01:19:25) - One thing to do for 30 days(01:24:12) - Where to find Bill

Justin McSweeny was raised Catholic, was refused his First Communion as a boy because his parents were divorced, and walked away from church at 15. A health crisis at 41 sent him back to meditation and then deep into philosophy. Today he calls himself an ignostic, a word coined by Rabbi Sherwin Wine: the question "does God exist?" can't be answered until someone says what "God" means. He holds his beliefs loosely on purpose, and he runs the IdeaCast interview series and illuminelife.org. Josh and Justin talk about why suspending judgment brings peace, whether a person living a steady life needs morality at all, a $20,000 weekend in Vegas, the story of Eden as a fall into self-awareness rather than sin, and why "authentic" is a construction too. Josh pushes where they differ: whether greatness requires obsession, whether life without an afterlife has a purpose, and whether we can judge people like Tom Brady for chasing theirs. They land on social media, AI, and a generation looking backward for a future it can't see. Justin closes with three keys to practice for the next 30 days: ritual, dialectic and disruption. About Justin McSweeny: Justin McSweeny lives in Florida with his wife and a couple of itinerant cats, and works as a plant inspector. He hosts the IdeaCast interview series on YouTube and Spotify and runs illuminelife.org, a free virtual workshop for personal inquiry and development. illuminelife.org: https://www.illuminelife.org/IdeaCast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ideacastilluminate Chapters (00:00:00) - Intro(00:00:33) - Where Justin is coming from(00:01:22) - A refused Communion, and out of church at 15(00:05:44) - A health crisis at 41(00:07:41) - Suspending judgment: epoché leads to ataraxia(00:10:07) - Apophasis and ignosticism(00:14:21) - Okay with dying(00:20:12) - Purpose without an afterlife(00:24:14) - Amoral, not immoral(00:28:27) - Morality as a guardrail: Vegas and $20,000(00:34:19) - Good and evil, and the Lucifer Principle(00:36:52) - Belief is a tool, and Eden as self-awareness(00:39:43) - God as the fellow sufferer(00:43:12) - Every belief is a chain(00:46:07) - Obsession vs detachment(00:59:08) - Tom Brady and the identity trap(01:02:50) - Sincere, not authentic(01:04:46) - Social media and simulacra(01:17:39) - Phones, nature, and religions that won't change(01:22:22) - Predictive processing and a new Reformation(01:30:06) - Moloch, nostalgia and AI(01:35:51) - Reading Jesus differently(01:45:46) - Hauntology and the lost future(01:51:28) - 30 days: ritual, dialectic, disruption

Father Augustine Wetta has been a Benedictine monk at Saint Louis Abbey for 30 years. He teaches high school, coaches rugby, turns the Psalms into rap, and wrote Humility Rules, which has sold over 100,000 copies. He met his first monk on a bus in Rome while fending off a pickpocket, and he once told his abbot he was a terrible monk. The abbot agreed. Josh and Father Augustine talk about going all in on a faith when your vows leave no exit: Saint Benedict's way to end an argument, why love can grow out of commitment, and why you will marry the wrong person. Then they disagree about AI. Josh builds with it every day and sees a crisis of purpose coming fast. Father Augustine uses it to write rap songs, doubts anyone can predict the future, and says no machine can say Mass or become flesh. They land on the practical: shame, honor and virtue signaling, humility as truthful self-knowledge, why the closer you get to God the smaller you feel, and one thing anyone can try for the next 30 days. About Father Augustine Wetta: Father Augustine Wetta is a monk of Saint Louis Abbey in Saint Louis, Missouri, where he teaches high school and coaches rugby. He has degrees from Oxford University, Rice University, and Middlebury College. Father Augustine grew up on a tropical island, where he learned to surf and was nearly eaten by a shark. Father Augustine Wetta: https://www.augustinewetta.comHis psalm raps: https://distrokid.com/hyperfollow/corvuschristi/ran Chapters (00:00:00) - Intro(00:01:59) - A Benedictine monk since 1996(00:03:30) - The monk with no pockets(00:05:26) - Stuck in an elevator, and it was perfect(00:07:13) - A family that argued about God(00:08:15) - Why the Benedictines have lasted(00:10:10) - How monks end an argument(00:14:15) - Bad at being a monk(00:15:11) - No exit: vows, marriage and commitment(00:20:47) - You will marry the wrong person(00:23:02) - AI and the Psalms as gangster raps(00:28:30) - A dangerous dance with the beast?(00:30:45) - Why a robot can never say Mass(00:37:36) - Building our own gods(00:38:53) - Ouija boards and demons(00:43:34) - Our times are too certain(00:50:13) - Entertainment vs the sacred(00:56:51) - Cool vs beautiful(00:59:48) - Shame, honor and virtue signaling(01:09:33) - Humility as truthful self-knowledge(01:14:12) - Kill the ego? God doesn't create junk(01:18:16) - The closer to God, the smaller you feel(01:20:13) - Be a good monk today, leave tomorrow(01:23:24) - One practice for 30 days