In our conversation, Johan Norberg explained why top-down, state-driven climate policies often fail. He warned that "degrowth" — trying to save the planet by shrinking the economy — risks social collapse, as economic growth underpins almost everything we value: health, education, opportunity, and technological progress.

Instead, Norberg argued for starting small, embracing trial and error, and letting open markets drive continuous improvement. Effective climate solutions, he said, emerge through competition, innovation, and piecemeal learning — not through grand political plans. He warned that top-down policies often create Potemkin-style results, citing China's renewables push as a case where impressive numbers masked real inefficiencies.

While emphasizing the need for bottom-up approaches, Johan also recognized the case for a "big bang" climate reform: combining serious carbon pricing, regulatory simplification, and freer markets to unleash innovation at scale. He stressed that carbon pricing can and should replace subsidies and micromanagement — ideally giving revenues back to citizens to avoid government overreach.

Despite growing protectionism and political dysfunction, Norberg remained cautiously optimistic. He pointed to the global spread of ideas, technology, and best practices — and to the fact that the world's freest and most open societies have already begun to decouple economic growth from carbon emissions. Innovation and openness, he argued, still offer the best hope for the planet.