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146. Jack Antonoff Returns: Working Out the New Theme Song
Update: 2024-09-30
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11-time Grammy winner, celebrated rock star, and noted Working It Out theme song composer Jack Antonoff returns to the podcast. Mike and Jack discuss Jack’s performing with Taylor Swift and collaborating with Sabrina Carpenter, why cynicism can’t exist in a live performance, and the joys of Tim Robinson’s sketch show “I Think You Should Leave.” Plus, Mike reads excerpts from his wedding speech/roast of Jack, and a musical working it out session in which a new theme for the show is born.
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Transcript
00:00:00
People's personal opinions on the concept of success, colors so much.
00:00:06
I was saying this to someone I had an interview today with Billboard and the person was like, this is something I get a lot there.
00:00:12
Like you do so many things and I was like, well, I really don't.
00:00:15
You know, I think what you're reflecting on is that maybe you find it awkward how hungry I am.
00:00:21
You know, 'cause when I was 22 and I was in steel train, I was producing my friends records and writing and touring in a van that I would attach the trailer myself all around the country.
00:00:29
No one was like, "You do so much."
00:00:30
They were just like, "Get it."
00:00:31
(laughing)
00:00:32
You know what right?
00:00:33
(upbeat music)
00:00:35
That is the voice of the great Jack Antenov, Jack, of course, was on the podcast years ago.
00:00:44
But now he's back, he's in the studio.
00:00:46
A lot has happened with Jack Antenov.
00:00:48
He is a very busy person for starters.
00:00:51
He got married to the great actress, Margaret Quali.
00:00:54
I was at the wedding last summer.
00:00:56
We talk about that on the show today.
00:00:58
That's a huge life shift.
00:01:00
He's made a whole bunch of albums with his band Bleachers, with Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey and Bruce Springsteen and St.
00:01:09
Vincent and in a list goes on and on and on.
00:01:12
He won the Grammy for Producer of the Year.
00:01:15
Three years in a row.
00:01:18
I'm speechless.
00:01:22
I've known Jack for years, 20 years.
00:01:25
Since before he was Producer of the Year.
00:01:27
And he's been in so many bands.
00:01:29
He was in a band called Steel Train.
00:01:31
That's when I met him.
00:01:32
He was in a band called Fun.
00:01:34
Now he's in a band called Bleachers, who I love.
00:01:37
Their two recent albums are so fantastic.
00:01:41
One of them is self-titled Bleachers.
00:01:43
The other one is a rendition of their first album called Stranger Desired and it is beautiful.
00:01:53
It's like stripped down versions of the original songs.
00:01:56
I just love it.
00:01:57
Bleachers will be.
00:01:58
It's sold out, but it's exciting to talk about.
00:02:01
He's going to be playing Madison Square Garden with Bleachers this Friday.
00:02:05
I'm going.
00:02:06
Maybe I'll see you there.
00:02:08
If you see me, just go tell your friends, tell your enemies.
00:02:12
And I'll know, I'll know you're in me here.
00:02:14
Bleachers is on tour right now.
00:02:15
They've been going all over the place.
00:02:17
They made me Europe and obviously I'm on tour right now.
00:02:21
I've got the please stop the ride tour.
00:02:23
We just recently announced some shows in West Palm Beach at the Cravis Center.
00:02:29
It's just a little, just a little, I think it's like a 300 seat black box theater there at the Cravis Center.
00:02:36
I'm really excited about it.
00:02:37
It's Thanksgiving weekend of November 29th and 30 tickets of verbigs.com.
00:02:41
Of course, I will also be in Philadelphia in October.
00:02:45
I'll be in Minneapolis.
00:02:47
I'll be in Madison, Milwaukee.
00:02:48
Champagne, Illinois, Indianapolis, Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh.
00:02:54
Come on, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Asheville, Charleston, South Carolina.
00:02:59
Again, I said this on the last podcast.
00:03:01
I'm making a New York City announcement very, very soon.
00:03:05
So join the mailing list to be the first to know 'cause those New York shows sell out so quick.
00:03:11
New York City announcement for March.
00:03:14
And then I'm gonna make an announcement about a bunch of other places like California and Iowa.
00:03:19
And maybe Vermont, maybe Western Massachusetts.
00:03:24
I don't know why I'm saying this one.
00:03:26
It's not actually public, but that's what's coming.
00:03:30
I hope you enjoyed this episode with Jack Anand off as much as I did.
00:03:33
We just go really deep on process.
00:03:35
We make fun of each other a lot.
00:03:37
It's a lot like the Pete Holmes episode.
00:03:40
Just know it is all pure love.
00:03:43
Thanks for tuning in today and join my chat with the great Jack Antonov.
00:03:47
(upbeat music)
00:03:50
- I feel like I started this podcast and just blew up without me.
00:04:04
- Okay, fair.
00:04:05
- Was I, I was, okay.
00:04:06
- Wait, you know, that's like, I feel like I'm returning home to a space that I reckon, like, you know, now it's on a different floor.
00:04:14
- Yeah, some of the third floor.
00:04:15
- Did you even talk of the people watch?
00:03:49
- The whole thing.
00:04:17
- What?
00:04:18
- Did they know it's different?
00:04:20
Who?
00:04:20
- The people who watch that you just moved to the space to like a nicer space?
00:04:24
(laughing)
00:04:26
- No, we didn't mention it.
00:04:27
But I feel like-- - I received nothing from this.
00:04:30
- Yeah.
00:04:31
- And I just listened.
00:04:32
- Yeah.
00:04:33
- And I listened.
00:04:33
- Yeah.
00:04:34
- And it's so much listening.
00:04:34
- And you did the theme song for the show.
00:04:36
- And the theme song for the show.
00:04:37
- And we're gonna work it today.
00:04:37
We're gonna do a new version.
00:04:39
- Maybe.
00:04:40
- Okay.
00:04:40
- I brought a guitar.
00:04:42
- I brought a Martin guitar.
00:04:43
- And then the thing just takes flight.
00:04:45
And everyone listens to it.
00:04:46
- Right.
00:04:46
- It's big.
00:04:47
- And the thing for my band the other day was like, have you heard, we're basically just podcasts.
00:04:51
And I felt like it was like similar to somebody.
00:04:53
And like, like, do you know Rachel Antenoff?
00:04:56
And I was like, how can you ask me that?
00:04:59
This is like that scene in Wayne's World when we're becomes over commercial.
00:05:03
- Wayne's World goes corporate.
00:05:05
- The fact that there's mugs.
00:05:06
- Yeah, yeah.
00:05:07
- But we're not corporate.
00:05:08
It's an independent podcast.
00:05:09
- We're not.
00:05:10
- We've been who made these.
00:05:10
- We did.
00:05:12
- We just went to a merch company.
00:05:13
The same way that your new jerseys financed New Yorker hat is made by all companies.
00:05:16
- That doesn't feel corporate.
00:05:18
- Oh God.
00:05:19
- Did I blaze too quickly into our actual relationship?
00:05:23
- No, no, I like our actual relationship.
00:05:25
- Okay.
00:05:25
- No, I do too.
00:05:25
- I'm gonna bring people up to speed.
00:05:27
- But people might not understand.
00:05:28
- Jack and I are old friends and we burn each other not unlike myself and Pete Holmes.
00:05:33
So if you know the Pete Holmes episodes.
00:05:34
- No, it's ingest.
00:05:36
I like the idea of when we're being ingest.
00:05:39
- Yeah, when I'm around people that know you of presenting that there's like a darker spirit in there, just because Mike has made such a...
00:05:47
Mike is a nice guy and there's nothing better than rooting out someone who is saying they're a nice guy.
00:05:56
So I spend a lot of time planting seeds that aren't sure about you.
00:06:00
- I think, yeah, I agree with you.
00:06:02
I'm annoyed by the nice guy industry in comedy.
00:06:07
- Well, it's tough and I know why.
00:06:09
- Yeah, I always try to fight against it.
00:06:10
- I don't know, I'm just on the show.
00:06:11
- In all, whether it's comedy or art, I'm pretty much uninterested in anyone selling themselves as a nice guy or a piece of shit.
00:06:19
Even when people are like, you know what, fuck it, I'm a piece of shit now.
00:06:23
I'm kinda like, that's, it's a bit all lacking nuance to me, so I don't like either.
00:06:29
I agree, yeah, and I know a lot of comedians these days are like, fuck it, I'm a piece of shit.
00:06:33
And it's like, that sucks.
00:06:35
- Yeah.
00:06:35
- And then when someone's like currency is that they're a great person, that's obnoxious too.
00:06:40
- Yeah.
00:06:41
- Okay, when you and I met in like 1971.
00:06:44
(laughing)
00:06:46
- We met in the odds.
00:06:48
- He did for real.
00:06:49
- We met at Bonnaroo.
00:06:51
And I remember.
00:06:51
- We had kind of a flirty hello.
00:06:53
- Flirty hello.
00:06:53
- Do you remember at the craft services at Bonnaroo?
00:06:56
- Yes.
00:06:57
- We were putting barbecue sauce on each other's faces.
00:07:00
You and me and Rachel.
00:07:01
- I'm licking it off.
00:07:02
(laughing)
00:07:03
- Possibly licking it off.
00:07:05
- And we had sex.
00:07:05
(laughing)
00:07:06
- We had love.
00:07:07
- Yeah.
00:07:08
- In barbecue sauce.
00:07:09
- Uh-huh.
00:07:10
- And it was beautiful.
00:07:11
- And it's part's true.
00:07:12
At one point it was me, you and Louis Platt.
00:07:15
- Platt.
00:07:16
- We're talking.
00:07:17
And I remember thinking like, whoa, like, you know, I don't know, comedians.
00:07:21
And you guys were like, just like, I think when comedians talk, they do this like overly like sort of like seriousness.
00:07:26
And it was the first time I've witnessed it.
00:07:28
Now I've seen you do it with many, many times.
00:07:31
You know, I don't know if I talk to musicians in a certain way, but it's almost like the idea of being funny is so far from the, do you know what I mean?
00:07:40
- No.
00:07:40
- This is one of my questions for you about music.
00:07:42
What?
00:07:43
Because you're producing so many things, you're producing your albums, you're producing other people's albums.
00:07:48
You listen to so much music.
00:07:49
How do you, how do you relax?
00:07:52
'Cause everybody else listens to the music.
00:07:54
Without music, I relax with TV.
00:07:56
TV.
00:07:56
I listen to music.
00:07:58
Well, I don't really listen to music if I'm not feeling it.
00:08:01
It was a nice thing about my job as it's not, I don't have to, I go on when I feel like making things, which has been a lot lately.
00:08:08
But after I listen to what I'm doing, I'm really separate from things.
00:08:11
I pretty much only listen to this stuff I'm working on.
00:08:14
And then I go home and last night we watched G.I.
00:08:16
Jane.
00:08:17
We watched a little bit of Rocky.
00:08:21
I'm excited for Severance to come back.
00:08:23
I can really watch any, you and I, you and I have talked at length about, I think you should leave.
00:08:28
It's the greatest.
00:08:29
- So funny.
00:08:30
- It's the greatest.
00:08:31
I think you should leave.
00:08:32
Does to me what, like Adam Sandler did.
00:08:35
I think when I was in the 90s, it changes the way we speak.
00:08:39
- All right, we're gonna get to, we're gonna get to music.
00:08:41
- This is the one thing that I give you full permission to cut up and use as salacious clip to get people's attention.
00:08:47
You ready?
00:08:47
- I'm not gonna say the name of the person, all right?
00:08:51
But I was with, actually a group of people.
00:08:55
And I was in a moving vehicle, all right?
00:08:58
And I was like, it had a, a TV hit.
00:09:01
I was like, everyone was like, which we watch.
00:09:03
And I was like, trust me, let's put on coffin flop.
00:09:05
You guys seen that?
00:09:07
No, we haven't seen, like put it on.
00:09:09
And we put it on, and it was, in my adult life, one of the only times that I ever felt truly sad and small.
00:09:15
And they didn't think it was funny.
00:09:17
- Oh no.
00:09:17
- And they made fun of me for thinking it was funny.
00:09:19
- No, no.
00:09:20
- And one day I'll tell you who was.
00:09:22
- Barack Obama.
00:09:23
- Well, might as well.
00:09:24
- Might as well be, yeah.
00:09:25
- Yeah, mine got you.
00:09:26
- No, it wasn't.
00:09:27
It was Hillary.
00:09:28
(laughing)
00:09:29
- And that's like, you lost.
00:09:30
- Yeah, that's like you lost, yeah.
00:09:32
- One day I'll explain who it was.
00:09:35
When I feel ready to it.
00:09:36
- Wow.
00:09:37
- To do so.
00:09:38
- Well, publicly, but I'll never forgive them.
00:09:42
- Never forgive them for two things.
00:09:43
Most of the thing I wouldn't forgive them for is not thinking coffin flop is funny, because if you don't think that's funny, I don't know how we can relate as people.
00:09:51
- Hey, yes, sir.
00:09:51
- Hey, but then be to shame someone, right?
00:09:55
Anyway, one day I'll tell you who shamed me for coffin flop and fucked them, man.
00:10:00
- Oh, wow.
00:10:02
That's interesting.
00:10:02
- Fuck them.
00:10:03
- Yeah, a lot of fuck them energy.
00:10:05
- No, it takes a lot to, that was one of the few times someone made me feel small.
00:10:09
Wow, I don't mind if people disagree with me or don't like me, I just don't, but I don't like when anyone makes someone else feel small, which unfortunately we spend a lot of time doing to each other by like having you do it.
00:10:22
- Oh, good.
00:10:22
- Your speech at my wedding was, I mean, I don't know if I'll ever recover.
00:10:29
- I'm gonna read some of that.
00:10:30
- Did you bring it?
00:10:31
- Yeah, I printed it out.
00:10:32
- Are you joking?
00:10:33
- Are you joking?
00:10:34
- I printed it out just in case.
00:10:35
- I didn't even know that.
00:10:36
- It seems like I would have been leading with me reading some of these.
00:10:41
We can come out of it.
00:10:42
When I look at Jack and Margaret, just superficially, just their appearance, it really speaks to the power of music.
00:10:48
- I mean, I guess the reason why I like it and it doesn't make me feel bad is mean as it technically is.
00:10:56
And I want to say that I really like the way I look like is because it's so smart and it's so brilliant that I can't even make fun of you.
00:11:05
- Jack's parents are amazing, Rick and Shira.
00:11:09
I've never met two parents who feel more invited.
00:11:13
- I don't know if people would get that they're overbearing.
00:11:17
- The parents are overbearing.
00:11:18
I love them.
00:11:18
I love Rick and Shira.
00:11:19
I think of them like family.
00:11:21
- Yeah.
00:11:22
- They're a bit much.
00:11:23
- For who?
00:11:24
- Not for me.
00:11:25
- For you?
00:11:25
- Yeah.
00:11:26
- Well, you know what I mean?
00:11:27
- They're just around.
00:11:28
I don't leave my parents and Shira's very Massachusetts and just upload porn to their computer.
00:11:33
- Margaret, that's beautiful.
00:11:35
Like a classic statue at a Parisian museum in Jack.
00:11:37
You're like the security guard at that museum.
00:11:40
- Anti-Semitic.
00:11:42
- Oh my God.
00:11:42
- Just is.
00:11:43
- Just is.
00:11:45
- Our security guard's Jewish.
00:11:47
Often Jewish.
00:11:49
Okay.
00:11:50
Apologies to the listeners.
00:11:52
(laughs)
00:11:54
At the Grammys Jack one producer of the year and with his friends, he won least replies to urgent text messages award with a single I totally forgot you had a baby.
00:12:07
(laughs)
00:12:09
That fucking killed with your friends so hard.
00:12:13
- It's something I still argue about with people.
00:12:14
I don't think.
00:12:15
(laughs)
00:12:17
I don't think.
00:12:19
Whenever someone's like, "I text you," I'm like, "I got it."
00:12:21
I don't think.
00:12:23
- This is an outrage.
00:12:24
- This is an outrage.
00:12:25
- Okay.
00:12:26
We all have to do our own, like if I text you, - Yeah.
00:12:31
- And I'm like, "I'm bleeding."
00:12:32
I think you should write back, right?
00:12:34
If I text you, I think there is a period of time that is or isn't rude.
00:12:39
- Yeah.
00:12:40
- I think we disagree on that period and I think I disagree with a lot of people 'cause I've gotten this criticism before.
00:12:45
- Yeah.
00:12:46
- But if I get your message, do you think I have to respond right away?
00:12:49
- I mean, it's a modern challenge.
00:12:54
- Yeah.
00:12:55
- It's a challenge of modern times.
00:12:57
I don't think anybody knows.
00:12:58
There's no etiquette.
00:12:59
- But everyone's mad at me about it.
00:13:01
- Yeah, but 'cause they're mad at you because they don't know, like in my case, it's like there are days where I'm like, "Wait, are Jack and I still friends?"
00:13:09
- That's insane.
00:13:10
- Yeah, but it's like that's how you feel sometimes.
00:13:12
- No.
00:13:13
- You're like, "If he doesn't write back, are we friends?"
00:13:15
- I write back.
00:13:15
And we also have long conversations.
00:13:16
We do real catch-ups.
00:13:17
- I know.
00:13:18
- We do real catch-ups.
00:13:19
Would you rather me respond to every dumb thing you write me about one of your-- (laughing)
00:13:25
- About one of your comedian friends.
00:13:27
- What am I comedian friends?
00:13:28
They're a friend.
00:13:29
I don't actually want one of my comedian friends.
00:13:31
- Some gripe you have with a close comedian friend.
00:13:34
- That's not real?
00:13:36
- No, I feel-- - You're phrasing my movies.
00:13:39
(laughing)
00:13:40
- You know what, I also bothers me when I call someone and then they write back five minutes.
00:13:45
- Yeah.
00:13:45
- And I'm like-- - That's a power move.
00:13:46
- But I'm like, the assumption that I'm free in five minutes.
00:13:49
- Right.
00:13:50
- Right?
00:13:51
- All right.
00:13:52
So when I met you, you were traveling around the country in a van and with steel train, your first van.
00:13:58
- Yeah.
00:13:59
- You've had steel train, fun bleachers.
00:14:04
Those are your van.
00:14:05
Those are all three vans that you were in.
00:14:06
- There was one before it.
00:14:08
- Oh, there's one before that.
00:14:08
- But we only did one tour.
00:14:10
- In high school.
00:14:11
- Yeah.
00:14:11
- What?
00:14:12
Okay, from when I met you when you were in steel train in like 2005, 2006, and now, what in your life is different was the same.
00:14:20
I feel like my life is exactly the same.
00:14:24
The context of it is just, or like the outfit it's in has changed.
00:14:29
Like, I think one thing I love about songwriting and producing and performing, and I wonder if you feel this way about touring, is like this, this like deep soul thing that I do,
00:14:39
right?
00:14:40
This like thing buzzing inside me is totally unchanged.
00:14:43
- Yeah.
00:14:44
- If I played a five people or 50,000 people, I'm doing the exact same thing.
00:14:48
- Yeah, yeah.
00:14:49
- It's the same exact thing.
00:14:50
The connection is the same, but then everything sort of changes around it.
00:14:54
Songwriting is the most unchanged thing.
00:14:58
There's, you know, if someone, it's like writing for you.
00:15:01
Like if you were trying to write another hour or something like this, right?
00:15:06
If someone was like, "I want to invest a trillion dollars into you writing an hour," you'd be like, I, thanks.
00:15:12
(laughing)
00:15:13
There's not one thing you could do to make your hour better.
00:15:17
There's no matter, you don't need to hire anyone.
00:15:18
And that's what songwriting is.
00:15:20
And essentially, as much as I enjoy working in nice studios, it's the same thing with producing.
00:15:26
It's like the active producing is complicated, but like songwriting producing, the most debased version of it is like, "You hear something in your head or feel it in your body."
00:15:35
And then you have to take this thing and then make it something that someone could hit play out, right?
00:15:39
Dumbest way I could put it, but the truth.
00:15:42
I don't need 100 engineers.
00:15:44
It wouldn't help, it would actually hurt.
00:15:45
And so I love, it's same thing with the band.
00:15:48
For playing the biggest show ever, if we're playing for three people.
00:15:51
Yeah.
00:15:52
Our goal to make it feel like the last night on Earth remains.
00:15:56
And so as much as my life has changed outwardly in many ways, the things that I spend 99% of my day doing, yeah.
00:16:04
This is what I love about producing, writing, and touring.
00:16:07
Although the outfit has changed, the soul of them is exactly the same and there is nothing I could do to make myself any, I just feel like, no different than I always know as a kid writing,
00:16:18
or my 20s or now, I'm just sort of there hoping to grab it, wondering if I've written my last song.
00:16:24
Yeah.
00:16:25
And I think that's interesting, goes for you too.
00:16:27
Like, people write their last song, write their last film, you know, stop being prolific as a comic or a writer often before they die.
00:16:36
Yeah.
00:16:37
And it's a really harsh fact, some don't.
00:16:39
Yeah.
00:16:40
Most ice the cake towards the end.
00:16:42
Yeah.
00:16:43
Some, you know, destroy the whole thing, unfortunately.
00:16:46
But, but most just sort of put it away and had to be on display.
00:16:50
And I don't know one writer who doesn't feel that every song they wrote may be the last one.
00:16:58
Yeah.
00:16:59
And that's a really jarring and like humbling feeling.
00:17:02
So sorry to give the longest answer ever, but it's great.
00:17:05
My life has changed in so many ways.
00:17:07
Finally, you're saying something.
00:17:08
I know, and not just trolling.
00:17:10
My life has changed in so many ways, but I don't know, you've known me for, I also think people's personal opinions on the concept of success, colors so much.
00:17:21
I was saying this to someone I interviewed today with Billboard.
00:17:24
And the person was like, this is something I get off there.
00:17:26
Like you do so many things.
00:17:27
And I was like, well, I really don't.
00:17:29
You know, I think what you're reflecting on is that maybe you find it awkward how hungry I am.
00:17:35
You know, 'cause when I was 22 and I was in steel train, I was producing my friends records and writing and touring in a van that I would attach the trailer myself all around the country.
00:17:43
No one was like, you do so much.
00:17:44
They were just like, get it, you know what I'm right?
00:17:47
Yes.
00:17:48
And it's like, I actually, I don't do that much.
00:17:50
I woke up at 10.45 a.m.
00:17:53
this morning.
00:17:53
Well, I think people don't recognize often because there's a lot of bad actors, you know, carrying torches, but you know, you have it too.
00:18:03
All the people I love have it.
00:18:03
It's like this, the thing that is buzzing inside you that you do is completely divorced from what you get back from it.
00:18:12
And I think the thing that gives me a lot of courage and face when I think about people that I think are great is there's no bit.
00:18:19
Yeah.
00:18:20
Anyone I know, I won't say names 'cause it's not meant to be negative, but anyone I know who's got some bit going on around their work, it's like, yeah, you know, at the end of the day, it's only authenticity cuts through.
00:18:29
And even the most cynical seeming people, right?
00:18:32
Like I have no doubt that if you sat with Lou Reed, that was Lou Reed.
00:18:34
Right.
00:18:36
And you unpack what you mean by bit.
00:18:38
You know, when I meet people who I think are doing a thing and then they're sort of doing another thing or it's like they're playing with the audience in a way.
00:18:50
Yeah.
00:18:52
I think it's very fleeting to mess with your audience.
00:18:55
You know, like in other words, like a manipulation versus a true connection.
00:18:58
Yes.
00:18:59
And all my favorite artists, and you don't want to name names.
00:19:02
Of course not.
00:19:03
But all my favorite artists, you do think of it, like Richard Pryor, for example, is probably my favorite.
00:19:08
Like it's the truest connection, even if the manipulation was some weird way of crossing lines to get to the point where he could say something so subversive that you were with him.
00:19:18
Even if he was playing with it, at the heart of it was like this.
00:19:21
Like what I get from a man who just like needed to say some truths that in front of a lot of people.
00:19:28
I don't know if you agree.
00:19:29
This is my favorite.
00:19:30
Probably my number one of all time.
00:19:32
And so I guess what I'm saying is when I've come across people that seem to be, you know, projecting something that isn't just, it's something that they think they want to project or play with that isn't necessarily just deeply coming from them,
00:19:46
it always kind of falls apart.
00:19:47
And then these characters who just are, yeah, then just are, and then eventually people find out about it.
00:19:55
Is that how you choose who you work with?
00:19:58
Because I can imagine you're just phone is ringing off the hook.
00:20:01
I'm not being like overly generous, but like everyone on the planet wants to work with you.
00:20:06
- You call.
00:20:07
(laughing)
00:20:10
- Yeah, I do call.
00:20:11
- You call.
00:20:12
- And you don't reply sometimes.
00:20:13
- I understand this is a bad narrative, but why?
00:20:15
- But honestly, like how do you decide?
00:20:18
'Cause I think even like, again, I don't want to name names, 'cause I don't want to have it be name droppies over being click baity, but like every one, - Well, everyone you work with.
00:20:28
- Bob and Turner overdrive.
00:20:29
- Well, everyone you work with, like this week, you're with at the VMAs with Sabrina Carpenter, and that's someone who I'm like, oh, she's a great musician,
00:20:41
but I would be surprised when you were working with her, just like, I don't know.
00:20:45
With someone like that, are you like?
00:20:47
- What do you mean, surprise?
00:20:48
- I can tell you the story with her.
00:20:50
I've been listening to her for a long time.
00:20:53
I always thought she was brilliant.
00:20:55
She's like one of these artists is like, a lot of the story of this past year, a lot of people really come into the light, have been working for a long time.
00:21:03
I think we're moving back into a mode of like real people responding to like a level of expertise of someone who's been like grinding away at their craft.
00:21:12
- Interesting.
00:21:13
- She's like been working forever and getting, you know, every time she put me out of mode here and she's kind of just crystallizing this like vibe in this sound that's so specific.
00:21:23
And then we met, actually, she was at a bleachers show and I was like, oh, she's here.
00:21:27
And then like two weeks later, we kind of like randomly met at this thing.
00:21:30
We had like an official meeting and we got together and we were able to move very quickly making things.
00:21:38
And but yeah, I can recognize it for me personally in instant, just, oh, that's someone who's absolutely brilliant, brilliant writer, brilliant singer and is just sort of,
00:21:48
you know, like grinding towards something, not giving a shit, what is going on.
00:21:52
And it's like the only quality I really care about, right?
00:21:57
Is if someone's like, I got a thing, I'm doing.
00:21:59
I need to do it.
00:22:01
I want to make it like the most amazing version of itself and I just like do not give a shit.
00:22:08
- Well, it's exactly what we were just talking about, which is like manipulating an audience versus like connecting with the audience.
00:22:15
- It seems like that's, I mean, it's, I mean, if we're really trying to zero in on what it is, it seems like that's what you're talking about.
00:22:22
- Well, I, I mean, but correct me if I'm wrong.
00:22:24
- No, it is.
00:22:25
- I mean, steer me towards closer to what you're saying.
00:22:27
- Well, I think the act of performance with comedy or music, right?
00:22:30
Like, like cynicism can't exist, even if you use it as a tool, that's just a tool, but like it can't exist because it just takes so much to be there.
00:22:38
- Yeah.
00:22:39
- It's the opposite of the internet, right?
00:22:40
Like, that's why I love touring so much.
00:22:42
It's like, no one comes to the show cynically.
00:22:44
No one's like, I'm gonna like, you know, buy this ticket which, you know, because of the powers that be, it will be fucking nightmare to buy and like test the boundaries of my soul to just buy this ticket.
00:22:56
And then I'm gonna, you know, leave my house, which is honestly one of the hardest things to do.
00:23:02
And, you know, go into this place and, you know, just do this thing which takes so much effort.
00:23:10
No one does that cynically, right?
00:23:12
It's the problem with the internet.
00:23:13
There's no barrier of entry.
00:23:14
So we just, you know, we get shit because it asks for shit.
00:23:18
- Yeah.
00:23:19
- Live events ask for so much of you.
00:23:22
- Oh, I know.
00:23:23
- They ask for so much of your time, your funds, they ask so much of you.
00:23:26
So when we all get there, when I get to the show and God damn it, as a performer, it's like, I'm not rolling in in a limo.
00:23:34
You didn't even mean like, it demands so much of us, you know what touring is?
00:23:38
- No, I know.
00:23:39
- On all levels, it demands so much of you.
00:23:40
And there's a crew and there's all these people have been worked, you know, tirelessly to put on that show.
00:23:45
- Oh yeah.
00:23:46
- Right?
00:23:47
So when we get there, I am so stripped of cynicism.
00:23:51
- Yeah.
00:23:52
- The audience is so stripped of cynicism.
00:23:53
I just did Japan, Germany, France, and the UK and like two and a half weeks in home.
00:23:57
To make those shows happen, my crew, myself, my voice, all of it, there's just no fucking part of me that gets to that venue and is like, fuck this.
00:24:07
Because I would go home.
00:24:09
It's the easy choice.
00:24:10
It would be so easy when you're in the middle of a tour, when you're writing and you're like against the wall, it is so easy to jerk off, go home.
00:24:19
- Yeah.
00:24:20
- Watch Netflix, order food.
00:24:22
Like more than ever, the world is begging you to just simplify.
00:24:26
- Yeah.
00:24:27
- So I love it because that barrier of entry is the crux of humanity, which we lose more and more of in modernity, right?
00:24:36
In older days, everything had a larger barrier of entry.
00:24:40
You want to go somewhere, it's pain in the ass.
00:24:42
You want to eat, you got to go get the food.
00:24:44
You want to see a friend, you got to go see that friend's face, or if you're never going to see their face.
00:24:49
- The buy-in is huge.
00:24:51
- The buy-in is huge.
00:24:51
And so everything I do, or I spend my day doing, starts with that buy-in.
00:24:58
- Oh yeah, by the way, I'm coming to Madison Square Garden.
00:25:01
I, to see you at bleachers in Madison Square Garden.
00:25:04
- You better.
00:25:05
- I'm gonna introduce you if you want me to, you know, what are you gonna say?
00:25:08
- I don't know.
00:25:09
Well, you were like set aside the date like six months ago.
00:25:11
- I wanted you to be there because you were one of the, there's not a lot of people in my life that cared when no one came to the show.
00:25:17
- No, seriously.
00:25:18
- Yeah.
00:25:19
- I can count them on me, Rachel, Rick, Shira.
00:25:23
- That's it.
00:25:24
- You know, and then the band members.
00:25:26
- You always thought it was something you're right home about.
00:25:30
And so I, so I-- - I've always thought you were great.
00:25:32
I still think you're great.
00:25:34
I still, I think the new album's amazing.
00:25:36
I think stranger desire, desired, desired is, I think it might be my favorite.
00:25:47
- Interesting.
00:25:48
- 'Cause it's weird, I love the, it was the original bleachers album.
00:25:52
- This is my debut.
00:25:53
- Right.
00:25:54
- And you decided to go back.
00:25:56
My question is-- - I see it as a companion piece.
00:25:58
- Can we talk about it as you took your songs, you revisited them.
00:26:03
I non-musically, as a lay person, I would say you stripped them down?
00:26:09
- Arguably.
00:26:10
- Okay.
00:26:11
- But then-- - It's a reductive concept, built them up.
00:26:15
- Yeah.
00:26:15
- But I said it's like, you ripped out, I would say you correct me on this.
00:26:21
You ripped out like the synth, you ripped out like maybe the bass.
00:26:29
And then you put back in like, I would say like symphonic elements.
00:26:34
- A little bit.
00:26:34
I really struggled.
00:26:37
I was like, this is 10-year anniversary coming up for this debut album that means so much to me and everyone's always celebrating anniversaries nowadays.
00:26:43
And I was just like, it doesn't mean anything.
00:26:45
Who gives a shit?
00:26:46
And then I was like, it's such a big deal.
00:26:47
- Oh my god.
00:26:48
- Yeah.
00:26:49
- And I just kept vacillating and I was like, do I do like, do I release some demos?
00:26:52
It's kind of basic.
00:26:53
I was just trying to think of what to do.
00:26:55
And before I knew it, I just went to the studio and sometimes I go to the studio, I know you're like this one, you just write.
00:27:01
And you just sort of like, it's not free associating, but you just do what you do.
00:27:07
You know, I'm just sort of like-- - You do what comes out.
00:27:08
- Yeah, I'm like, I'm thinking about it.
00:27:09
I'm like, all right, I'll just have a guitar and start picking around some of the songs.
00:27:14
I was like, oh, it's kind of nice.
00:27:15
And I was like, put some horns on it, the makeup of the band now.
00:27:19
And yeah, I took it apart and put it, and before I knew it, I thought, and then what's nice about letting yourself just be and make what you make is then it comes to you.
00:27:28
I was like, oh, that first album is Strange Desire.
00:27:31
So bold, my debut, I was so anxious.
00:27:34
I needed all this production.
00:27:35
It was this Strange Desire to make that work when I was technically in another successful band.
00:27:40
It's kind of the whole thing of it.
00:27:42
And then I get to look back, knowing what I know now and say, oh, a debut is really about looking for your people.
00:27:48
It wasn't just a Strange Desire, it was a stranger desired.
00:27:51
It was looking for strangers to tell my story to.
00:27:54
- A stranger to you.
00:27:55
- And then I just came from just being able to just mess around.
00:27:58
But yeah, it's nice to make companion work or re-contextualize things, knowing, you know, 'cause I'm in the future too.
00:28:06
- I'm in the future also.
00:28:08
- It's also?
00:28:09
(laughs)
00:28:10
- Yes, I'm in the future also, it's one of my first jokes.
00:28:14
- I do a lot of, I won't say dog days, callbacks.
00:28:17
- Dog years.
00:28:18
- Dog years.
00:28:19
(laughs)
00:28:20
Was dog years good?
00:28:22
What are the highlights from dog years?
00:28:23
Snapple on dog years?
00:28:24
- Yeah.
00:28:25
- Snapples on dog years?
00:28:26
- Yeah.
00:28:27
- I'll perform Snapple for anyone who doesn't know it.
00:28:28
- Okay.
00:28:29
- So I, the heroine dealer outside my building.
00:28:31
And, you know, like, they're always like, you know, like, you wanna, you know, if you like heroine.
00:28:38
- This is tough.
00:28:39
- This is terrible.
00:28:40
- I forget it.
00:28:42
I remember the bed, if I were a rapist.
00:28:45
- Yeah, yeah.
00:28:46
I would have a bed, I would have a bed like that.
00:28:48
- I wouldn't have a bed like that.
00:28:48
- What I should have said was not what I did say, was you be surprised.
00:28:52
Is that dog days?
00:28:53
- That's from dog years, yeah.
00:28:54
- Dog years.
00:28:55
- Yeah.
00:28:56
- What's another dog years classic?
00:28:57
(sighs)
00:28:59
- I had a joke back then where I go.
00:29:00
I was on the subway and there was a guy crying over book and I leaned over and I go, you don't know how to read either, huh?
00:29:05
- That's pretty funny.
00:29:06
(laughs)
00:29:07
- What's the next album?
00:29:08
- I find these.
00:29:09
- What's the next album?
00:29:10
- What's the highlight of "Truing Mike?"
00:29:12
What are the hits?
00:29:14
- "Garrettus hits me?"
00:29:15
- Dead.
00:29:16
- It's like, I'm looking for a woman who loves me for my money but doesn't understand math.
00:29:21
And it's like, is it joke jokes?
00:29:24
- After "Truing Mike" is when you start getting into-- - Don't deflect.
00:29:28
- Don't deflect what?
00:29:29
- You deflect it in my career.
00:29:31
- Oh, people know.
00:29:33
- Do they?
00:29:33
(laughs)
00:29:35
Do they or is this audience sort of like the Netflix years?
00:29:39
(laughs)
00:29:41
- 'Cause some of us were here before.
00:29:43
- Some of us were here before.
00:29:44
- Some of us were here before the "Drama Discs" - Right, all right.
00:29:48
- And Broadway.
00:29:49
- This is hell.
00:29:50
- Some of us were here before, you know.
00:29:52
I were glass.
00:29:53
- All right.
00:29:54
- I was here before I were glass.
00:29:55
(guitar music)
00:29:57
(guitar music)
00:30:00
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00:31:15
(guitar music)
00:31:18
One of the most emotional moments in my life was with you.
00:31:26
I want to say last May, we were at MetLife, seeing Taylor Swift and you and I were together with my daughter, my wife Jenny, our daughter, Una.
00:31:36
And we're like, we're with Jack, our friend Jack, and Una of course loves you.
00:31:43
But then you went up on stage in front of like 80,000 people and saying, "Get away, car!" Was that tough for Una?
00:31:51
This is what I wanted to unpack.
00:31:52
- Honest question.
00:31:53
- I don't think it was tough.
00:31:55
I think it was, it made me very contemplative because then you came back and then we sat and watched the rest of the show and danced and had a great time.
00:32:02
And you were just like everybody else, who enjoyed Taylor's concert, except that you just performed in front of 80,000 people.
00:32:08
And I'm like, "Okay, that's weird for me with my daughter.
00:32:11
How is it for you if you ever have children?"
00:32:14
Do you think about that?
00:32:15
- You know, I think about it all the time because I grew up feeling really special that I made music.
00:32:26
I felt, you know, I, not a lot of people, I knew me music.
00:32:31
It's a small group of people and I loved the idea and I felt really special about it.
00:32:35
I also felt really misunderstood and hurt all the time, but I also felt like I just like really interesting secret.
00:32:40
And I was really driven by that like deep feeling misunderstood by my surrounding world.
00:32:48
So I like really wouldn't wish that kind of sandpaper on someone, but I also get really worried about how, this is slightly off topic,
00:33:00
but just like, like you have a child, right?
00:33:03
Maybe this is a crazy question.
00:33:05
Do you ever worry that like, everything's gotten too nice?
00:33:10
Like, yeah, sure, like, like, and that's part of the question.
00:33:16
For sure, I was really like, I got hit by a teacher, which is not good.
00:33:19
I don't want anyone to get hit by a teacher.
00:33:21
And maybe this is just my experience, but, you know, sometimes Joker Margaret, talking about this stuff, it's like all that, like rough misunderstanding feeling.
00:33:30
So, you know, feels so much of what I do.
00:33:35
I have a friend who I was telling this to and they were like, yeah, life's hard.
00:33:38
- Life's hard.
00:33:39
- Everyone's gonna be able to do what that's like thing.
00:33:41
Life's hard.
00:33:42
But, sorry, that was a bit irrelevant.
00:33:44
To get back to your point, there's such a difference, which is what I think speaks to like, the problem with like some people who like, you know, grow up in LA and things like that.
00:33:52
There's such a difference between money and power in an industry.
00:33:57
So, for example, like, I grew up, I was raised in a mill for New Jersey, which was a very working class town.
00:34:03
And then, it was like maybe like eight or nine.
00:34:06
And I remember we moved to a much nicer town.
00:34:10
It was a totally different vibe.
00:34:11
And that's where I was first encountered.
00:34:14
I'm sure you had this growing up, you know, the makeup of different towns and mass users.
00:34:17
That's where I was like, oh, that family has a lot of money.
00:34:20
You know, I understood the concept of money, which at that time was, you know, certain kids in school would have certain shoes or whatever.
00:34:26
And then, you start to understand class in a way, right?
00:34:28
Especially in a state like in New Jersey, where every town is like, you go one town, you're in Alpine, which is one of the richest towns in the country.
00:34:37
And then you're in, you know, two towns over.
00:34:40
And it's incredibly working class.
00:34:42
Next town really, you know, serious poverty.
00:34:46
Sure.
00:34:47
I think mass users is similar.
00:34:48
Yeah, I think so.
00:34:49
Where you just, you see it growing up.
00:34:51
So everywhere in the world, you know, every city in the world.
00:34:55
America.
00:34:56
Every state in America, there's different parts of the town and you experience wealth and people who haven't, don't have it in different ways.
00:35:03
But I didn't know anyone, who knew anyone.
00:35:06
Yeah.
00:35:07
Whereas it must be so weird.
00:35:10
And I don't, I don't know what this will be like.
00:35:11
But if, you know, it's a grow up in a place where it's like, you know people who know people who know people.
00:35:16
Sure.
00:35:17
And like, you know, like, I remember when I got into music, you know, there was nothing to do.
00:35:23
I was just got on the fucking road.
00:35:25
No one knew what to do or how to do it.
00:35:27
I, I, I, and like, from like the New Jersey scene, there was like a kid who played my demo to Richard Stephanie who had drive the record to the time.
00:35:35
And I, and I literally started my career, but, you know, signed one of the, you know, record deals, one of those record deals where it was like there was nothing and I was kind of locked in and just toured for years.
00:35:47
And, and that, that great divide between me, my band, and anyone who could help us get anywhere was such a blessing in,
00:35:58
in hindsight, because I was just forced to go grind.
00:36:01
So I don't, dance your question.
00:36:03
And I don't, it, it's bizarre because I, my future kids, and she'd do whatever they want to do, but I don't, I wouldn't be able to give them, I guess, that kind of anonymous existence.
00:36:14
And you must think about that and how bizarre.
00:36:18
It's so strange.
00:36:19
But, you know what, this is not about me, let me flip it on you.
00:36:21
Are you ever somewhere that you're comfortable in because you understand the context, and the people you like in the situation you like.
00:36:28
But, you know, like, you want to see me playing in front of 80,000 people and then coming back in 10, but then you have a moment where you're like, is this bad for a child psyching?
00:36:36
- Oh yeah, I think about that.
00:36:37
- I think about all the time.
00:36:38
- What do you do?
00:36:39
Do you try to explain it?
00:36:40
- I do.
00:36:41
- I always try to contextualize it.
00:36:42
- How do, like, I just go like, like, I was in the Vatican.
00:36:45
We were in the Vatican.
00:36:46
- Yeah.
00:36:47
- And, and had all these cool tours and things like that.
00:36:50
And I had to be like, well, this is like the religion that I was raised in, and we were never, I never came somewhere like this, and that kind of thing.
00:36:58
- I was an altar boy and the answer's no.
00:36:59
(laughs)
00:37:01
- It's a two-drink bike, but uh, but uh.
00:37:04
- Yeah, and I just try to contextualize it and hopefully, did some of that make sense?
00:37:11
It's so complex though.
00:37:13
That's why I was asking you because I don't know.
00:37:14
- I don't know, I don't know.
00:37:15
- I have kids, but I think about all the time because I just felt, I don't know.
00:37:20
I loved in hindsight the feeling of wanting to break out of my space, but I guess my kids will have that in their own way.
00:37:27
I don't know.
00:37:28
When your dad Rick played guitar with you on "Siren Live," I view it as the greatest example of reverse nepotism I've ever seen in show business.
00:37:39
- Him and Rob Grant are the great nepo daddies of our time.
00:37:42
- Why do you feel so bad for your dad?
00:37:44
- Why do you feel bad for my dad?
00:37:45
- I don't, I don't.
00:37:46
- Oh, my dad, you know, actually, you want to completely honest answer, yeah?
00:37:51
- I love community and family as you know.
00:37:53
I mean, my family is just deeply around.
00:37:56
- Yes.
00:37:57
- And we like it that way.
00:37:57
- Yeah, yeah.
00:37:58
- My existence is-- - They come to like all your shows and they have sense steel train since I first started like 20 years ago.
00:38:05
- Yeah, they're not, we just love to be together.
00:38:07
Even when we hate to be together, we're just together.
00:38:09
That's that.
00:38:10
- I think dude is an Italian, there's a similar thing, right?
00:38:13
- Maybe, I don't know.
00:38:13
- But we're like all of Garden Italian.
00:38:16
- You're gonna do all my jokes.
00:38:17
- These are all my jokes.
00:38:18
- Oh my jokes.
00:38:18
Do you like Mike?
00:38:19
(laughing)
00:38:20
- But my dad, the real meat and potatoes actually true and sweet answer is my dad was brilliant, is brilliant guitar player played ragtime guitar,
00:38:31
studied under the great Reverend Gary Davis Jr.
00:38:34
in New Jersey.
00:38:36
- Oh, I didn't know that.
00:38:37
- Yeah.
00:38:38
- And then when he graduated from college, it was, he had to cut his hair and go work at the shoe factory with his dad.
00:38:44
They had a shoe factory called Phoenix Footwear.
00:38:45
That was that.
00:38:46
So my, his parents not letting him be an artist was my ticket to be an artist.
00:38:53
- Yeah.
00:38:54
- Long before my sister died and my life got really complicated and then my parents were sort of like, do what the fuck you want because the house was so erect.
00:39:02
Long before that, my dad would always say, do what you want, do what you want.
00:39:05
You can live at home, my parents.
00:39:07
My dad, my mom, my dad.
00:39:08
You can live at home, we'll support you.
00:39:09
I was never, I lived at home until I was 27.
00:39:11
You know, my parents never made me pay rent.
00:39:12
- Yeah.
00:39:13
- I think the neighbors probably thought I was loser, didn't care.
00:39:16
And so to have him on stage with us now is a full circle of that moment.
00:39:23
Do you want me to play with you?
00:39:25
Next time you are a musical guest on SNL?
00:39:27
- No, why not?
00:39:29
- Do you want the real answer?
00:39:30
- Sure.
00:39:31
- I don't know if you would gel with the band.
00:39:33
Like I feel like when you play guitar, it's like sort of like, you're like good, but you're also making fun of people to play guitar.
00:39:38
- A mess.
00:39:39
- I'm the guitar guy at the party.
00:39:40
- Yep.
00:39:41
- I'm gonna sleep with your girlfriend.
00:39:42
- Yeah.
00:39:43
- Do you still do that?
00:39:44
- No, I mean, it's a bit from 20 years ago.
00:39:46
- 20 years ago?
00:39:47
- Yes.
00:39:48
- The media man on campus.
00:39:49
- Maybe the man on campus 20 years ago.
00:39:51
Come on.
00:39:52
Keep up with the times.
00:39:54
You wanna move on from this?
00:39:56
- Yeah, I was gonna say, when you write, I didn't know I was lonely until I saw your face or take this sadness out of Saturday night or New Jersey's finest in New York or what do you feel?
00:40:07
- When I get a good lyric, I feel like I own the world for one second.
00:40:11
- Yeah.
00:40:12
- Yeah, when I get signed that and it's rare 'cause you write a lot and sometimes you write and when you get one, you just get one off for like, that's what I wanted to say.
00:40:23
It's the perfect way to say it.
00:40:24
I know no one said it like that.
00:40:27
It's like, finding your like tiny window, right?
00:40:30
It's like, everything's like a mess.
00:40:31
You just find this like tiny way out and it's just, yeah, it's like a god for one second.
00:40:35
- Yeah.
00:40:36
- But yeah, it's the best 'cause it's like, it cracks open another level, songwriting to me.
00:40:41
- Yeah.
00:40:42
- I think it's similar for the way you write, but like, when you get a thing, you don't just get that thing.
00:40:47
You get access to a new level.
00:40:49
So when you get that line, when I got, you know, I know I was only until I saw your face.
00:40:53
I was like, oh, that's, that's, now I can shout, I wanna get better because it makes sense.
00:40:59
You know, now it's not just, you know, I'm just like, monitoring it like, you know, like now it's about, now there's context of being somewhere and then reflecting back and telling one's life story because you can finally deal with talking about it because you saw the thing and,
00:41:15
you know, or like, take the sadness of Sarah and I, it's like, it's so simple, take the sadness of Sarah and I, but until I had that concept that line in Chinatown and the album title,
00:41:26
I was like, what is this album?
00:41:28
What am I trying to do here?
00:41:30
You know, and that one line just glued it all together of like, can't it not all be fear-based?
00:41:37
Can't you say more about that?
00:41:39
Like, the whole album, how do you want more?
00:41:40
Like, I was really banging on the door of the next phase of my life and I couldn't get it right.
00:41:44
You know what I mean?
00:41:45
I couldn't get it right.
00:41:46
I wasn't in the right situations and I just wanted to have some joy, have some fucking joy without self-deprecation.
00:41:54
Yeah.
00:41:55
Without it all being like, you know, like real fucking joy and when I got, take the sadness out of that, I was just like, it just spoke to me and it unlocked a whole new level.
00:42:04
But yeah, New Jersey is finest in New Yorker.
00:42:06
It's like that, unlocks this verse where I want to take the piss out of myself which unlocks the sound of the song because if I'm going to make fun of myself then, okay, then the band can be on fire.
00:42:16
So I can distract in these different ways.
00:42:18
Yeah, you don't just get the line.
00:42:20
You get like, you know, like a video game you're gonna be like, "Cutting!" Yeah, you get the words.
00:42:24
Yeah, it's a lot, not to reduce it, but it's a lot like doing a puzzle.
00:42:28
You get that hard piece then you're like, "I found the yellow flower!" "I got the yellow flower!" And like, boom, boom.
00:42:34
And it's like euphoric, it's like drugs when you get it.
00:42:39
What's the saddest you get in the process?
00:42:42
I can get really depressed if I'm not hitting those, if I'm just like, you know, just if I'm there, I'm out on the field and I'm playing and I'm just not connecting.
00:42:52
And I have to be, I have to be at this point in my life, I have to be out there on the field, right?
00:42:57
Like I gotta be in the studio.
00:42:59
Yeah, yeah, I gotta be chipping away at it.
00:43:02
But, you know, sometimes, I mean, it's why I'm always blown away when anyone has to go about this stuff 'cause it's like, you can't do it.
00:43:08
Yeah, you can't just do it.
00:43:10
Yeah, you could try to do it, but it's, you're catching these things.
00:43:13
You don't know when they're gonna come.
00:43:15
But, what do you mean you can't just do it?
00:43:17
Like, it's not easy.
00:43:17
Like, you can't just sit down and write.
00:43:20
You can, but what you're really after comes or it doesn't.
00:43:25
Yeah.
00:43:25
Like, if you just, you know, went to a cabinet wrote for a week, there's no guarantee you'd come out with anything, it's worth anything, right?
00:43:33
You might.
00:43:34
But isn't the idea that you're going there to be a receptor?
00:43:37
Doesn't I'm saying?
00:43:38
So, that can be really frustrating.
00:43:39
The longer, if I go a long period of time without getting one that, like, I almost another thing about like those lines are like a good partner song or melody is like, it's like refilling the tank a little bit.
00:43:50
Like, if I'm on empty too long, I can get just sad.
00:43:54
You know what, it best put, it's like, it's the way that I feel myself.
00:43:58
Yeah.
00:43:59
And so when I'm doing it well, I feel myself.
00:44:03
It's like I'm doing the thing I meant to do.
00:44:04
And then when I'm not accessing it a lot, I can, yes, it's depressing.
00:44:07
Don't you get that way?
00:44:09
Yeah.
00:44:10
If you're not like, 'cause I'm always doing it, but if I'm not hitting that thing, then I just feel a little useless.
00:44:19
But then it ends, and I get something and then it picks me back up.
00:44:23
Yeah, I don't know that I never, I ever not feel that way.
00:44:27
Yeah.
00:44:30
I feel like the moments of being busy about something are so brief.
00:44:35
They're very brief.
00:44:36
You know, they're very brief.
00:44:37
I mean, if I'm being completely honest.
00:44:38
No, same.
00:44:39
Like, I think weirdly, like, a lot of the artistic process is like a feeling of malaise with moments of, oh my God.
00:44:47
Yeah.
00:44:48
That's why I'm so shocked when people think I'm, like, prolific or something, 'cause I'm like, you're so prolific.
00:44:56
But it's not my...
00:44:57
You're sucking, like, produce, like, 10 out of a year, you're like, producer, the year, like, five times in a row.
00:45:01
That's not my experience.
00:45:03
My, so your point, my experience is like, I can pull myself out of it and realize that something happens if I stay at it.
00:45:10
But I feel often, like, yeah, like these fleeting moments of, like, whoa, there it is.
00:45:17
And then a lot of my day is protecting that thing.
00:45:19
Yeah.
00:45:20
Finishing it.
00:45:21
You know, finishing it is...
00:45:22
But you have to be able to acknowledge, and I'm not doing this, I'm not saying this to be nice.
00:45:27
You have to acknowledge that side-by-side, your work output is bigger than other musicians work output.
00:45:35
No, that's not true.
00:45:36
This is where I push back.
00:45:38
I know plenty of writers and producers and people and bands, I'm not, I don't actually do much more.
00:45:44
There's a lot of people who do way more than me.
00:45:45
I'm telling you, go to bed.
00:45:47
Hmm, I, well, I have my way of doing it.
00:45:51
There's, it deviates depending on if situations.
00:45:55
But I like to be in the studio around 10 and finish it, like, five, walk somewhere, meet Margaret for dinner, go home, and really shut it down.
00:46:02
And I'd always try to write in the morning.
00:46:05
That's what I wrote.
00:46:05
That's what I'm good morning about that kind of.
00:46:07
But I always find that there is something circular about, like, you go to bed, you wake up, you've seen no things, you've heard no things.
00:46:17
You've seen no things, you've heard nothing.
00:46:18
And there is a freshness to that perspective that is new.
00:46:22
It's the same, I love New Year's.
00:46:24
I love New Year's Eve New Year's Day.
00:46:26
I like these things.
00:46:28
I like the end of the month, at the beginning of the month, on the first of the month, I feel different than on the 30th or 31st or whatever it is.
00:46:34
I think these are just like emotional facts, regardless of who you want to deny them.
00:46:38
And at night time, I am less good at thinking of accessing this thing.
00:46:45
I've eaten, food fucks me up.
00:46:48
As soon as I eat, I'm literally like, I'm so like light in the morning and ideas are coming out of my head.
00:46:55
You know what I mean?
00:46:56
Well, I always describe it as, right in the morning before you're afraid of the world.
00:47:02
Yes, right in the morning when you're still in the, and there's also like, I've started noticing this thing, I think we all have it.
00:47:08
I think we focus on the anxiety and depression we wake up with, and a lot of people talk about they wake up and then all of a sudden it dawns on them that they're back in their life.
00:47:17
We all know that feeling.
00:47:19
But there is like something about like, I've lived another day.
00:47:22
That is powerful too.
00:47:24
I agree.
00:47:25
And it makes me feel some semblance of new again.
00:47:30
And I've done my best writing first thing in the morning.
00:47:34
I've heard I heard a advice recently from someone that goes, when you wake up in the morning, say, say out loud, this is gonna be a great day.
00:47:41
Interesting.
00:47:42
Thanks for the good.
00:47:43
Margaret gave me a different version of that.
00:47:44
She said every time you get in the car, say, this is the most dangerous thing I'm gonna do to you.
00:47:48
That's a good one.
00:47:49
They do.
00:47:49
(upbeat music)
00:47:52
(upbeat music)
00:47:55
(upbeat music)
00:48:05
All right, that's by the way, that's my guitar.
00:48:12
It's a Martin, it's Kenneth Patton-Gill's Martin that I got for gruands in Tennessee.
00:48:19
(upbeat music)
00:48:21
Okay, working it out for you too.
00:48:25
Okay.
00:48:26
Okay, so I want to, I actually really want to try to do new music lyrics because people, you do the theme song to the show and the criticism of it sometime,
00:48:38
not criticism, but it's like, it's pandemic-based.
00:48:40
It was like, working it out 'cause it, yeah.
00:48:44
Working it out 'cause it's not done.
00:48:46
Working it out 'cause there's no one.
00:48:48
(singing)
00:48:50
And so, yeah, and so, but now there's people around, et cetera.
00:48:54
And so I thought I wrote, working it out 'cause it's not done.
00:48:59
Same tune or something different?
00:49:02
Yeah, maybe the same tune, but maybe a little bit more major.
00:49:04
What's the tune for?
00:49:05
This was so long ago.
00:49:06
(singing)
00:49:07
Working it out 'cause it's not done.
00:49:10
We're still working it out.
00:49:14
It turned out to be pretty fun.
00:49:15
(laughing)
00:49:17
That's good.
00:49:18
Okay, something like that?
00:49:19
Working it out 'cause it's not done.
00:49:22
We're working it out one on one.
00:49:27
And there's always a bit more jokes we can explore.
00:49:34
They're not all gonna score.
00:49:42
(laughing)
00:49:44
They're not all gonna score it.
00:49:47
(laughing)
00:49:48
♪ But we're gonna try one more ♪ That seemed nice.
00:49:55
I could do better, and maybe, you know, this is a true co-write, you've done the lyrics.
00:49:59
Maybe I'll record it nice in my studio.
00:50:01
Okay.
00:50:02
Maybe that version, which was so, we'll play.
00:50:04
Heavy with the reverb, maybe we make this a little bit sunnier to remind people how we've come out of the pandemic.
00:50:10
We've come, we come a long way.
00:50:11
Working it out 'cause it's not done.
00:50:14
♪ We're working it out one on one ♪ ♪ 'Cause there's always a bit more jokes we can explore ♪ ♪ No,
00:50:28
they're not all gonna score ♪ ♪ They're not all gonna score ♪ ♪ We'll try ♪ That's great.
00:50:46
My favorite part is they're not all gonna score.
00:50:48
I can do better, so I think I got it now, so it's okay.
00:50:51
♪ We're working it out 'cause it's not done ♪ ♪ We're working it out one on one ♪ ♪ 'Cause there's always a bit more jokes we can explore ♪ ♪ Yeah,
00:51:12
they're not all gonna score ♪ ♪ They're not all gonna score ♪ ♪ Let's make more ♪ ♪ Give me that ♪ ♪ Let's make more ♪ ♪ Let's make more ♪ ♪ And not all gonna score ♪ ♪ Let's make more ♪ - That sounds nice.
00:51:36
I like that.
00:51:37
(upbeat music)
00:51:39
The last thing we do is we're working out for a cause where we, we always done this?
00:51:46
- Yeah, we donate to a nonprofit of your choice and then we link to them in the show notes.
00:51:51
We can do ally coalition, which you and I have done over the years, many, many times together, and we are doing again in December.
00:52:04
The annual benefit you do for the ally coalition.
00:52:06
- That's the best right of the year.
00:52:07
We are gonna donate to the ally coalition.
00:52:10
Are you the only person on every performance?
00:52:11
- I think I've done everyone.
00:52:12
- Wait, you missed one year.
00:52:14
- No, but you made it.
00:52:15
- One year I sprinted from Broadway.
00:52:16
- And you were on there.
00:52:17
- It's crazy.
00:52:18
- Okay.
00:52:19
I love you.
00:52:20
Thank you for coming out.
00:52:21
- I love you.
00:52:22
- Thank you for being the theme song for the show.
00:52:23
- No one's coming soon.
00:52:26
♪ Working it out 'cause it's not done ♪ ♪ Working it out 'cause there's no one ♪ - That's gonna do it for another episode of "Working It Out."
00:52:36
- You can follow Jack Antenov on Instagram @JackAntenov.
00:52:40
Bleachers will be at Madison Square Garden this Friday.
00:52:43
Come on.
00:52:45
Check out their latest album, The Self-Titled One.
00:52:48
So good and stranger-desired.
00:52:50
Also, so good.
00:52:52
I've been listening to both of those on a loop.
00:52:54
I mean, they're just fantastic albums.
00:52:56
- You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel @MikeBermiglia.
00:53:01
- Check that out and subscribe 'cause we're gonna be posting more and more videos.
00:53:05
Check out Burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows.
00:53:10
Our producers are working it out or myself along with Peter Salmone, Joseph Burbiglia and Mabel Lewis.
00:53:15
Sound mix by Ben Cruz.
00:53:17
Supervising engineer, Kate Belinsky.
00:53:18
Special thanks to Jack Antenov.
00:53:21
Might know him from the "Working It Out" podcast and Bleachers for their music.
00:53:25
Special thanks, as always, to my wife, the poet, Jay Hope Stein.
00:53:28
Her book, Little Astronaut, is now an audio book where ever audio books are sold.
00:53:33
Special thanks, as always, to our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows.
00:53:37
Thanks most of all to you who are listening.
00:53:39
If you enjoyed the show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcast.
00:53:43
We're so close to the 4,000 reviews on there.
00:53:46
It's so exciting.
00:53:47
We're four and a half years in, almost 150 episodes.
00:53:51
They're all free, there's no paywall.
00:53:53
Come on.
00:53:54
You can write in the user review.
00:53:55
You can just say what your favorite episode is.
00:53:57
We've had Stephen Colbert, Winter Brunson, and Jimmy Kimmel, and Roy Wood Jr., and John Mulaney, and all these people who are fantastic.
00:54:05
Thanks most of all to you who are listening.
00:54:06
Tell your friends, tell your enemies.
00:54:09
Let's say you're in a van with your friends 'cause you take out your phone.
00:54:13
And you decide to show them a sketch from your favorite sketch comedy show.
00:54:16
Maybe that doesn't go over well.
00:54:18
Here's how you recover.
00:54:20
You go, "Hey, hey, I know you didn't like that one sketch."
00:54:24
Which means you probably don't have good taste in comedy.
00:54:27
But here is something I think we can all agree on.
00:54:30
It's a podcast called "Working It Out."
00:54:31
Mike Burbigley talks to other comedians and other creatives about process and jokes, and maybe that'll help a little bit.
00:54:39
And then maybe they'll reconsider enjoying, I think you should leave 'cause it's really brilliant.
00:54:44
Thanks everybody.
00:54:45
We're working it out.
00:54:46
See you next time.
00:54:47
[BLANK_AUDIO]
00:54:57