211: Attorneys General
Update: 2024-11-23
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Barb McQuade hosts #SistersInLaw to discuss Matt Gaetz’s withdrawal from contention for attorney general in favor of Pam Bondi by looking at whether his appointment was a strategy to make her seem more palatable and the negatives she brings to the table. Then, the #Sisters detail the guardrails being erected by governors, a coalition of state attorney generals, and ordinary citizens to defend our constitution from the 2nd Trump administration. They also explain the status of Trump’s cases in GA and NY, what will happen before he takes office and the fate of his co-conspirators who have already pled guilty.
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WEBSITE & TRANSCRIPT
Email: SISTERSINLAW@POLITICON.COM or Thread to @sistersInLaw.podcast
Get More From The #Sisters:
Pam Bondi’s Canine Custody Battle
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Email: SISTERSINLAW@POLITICON.COM or Thread to @sistersInLaw.podcast
Get More From The #Sisters:
Pam Bondi’s Canine Custody Battle
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Please Support This Week’s Sponsors:
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Kimberly Atkins Stohr: Bluesky | Twitter | Boston Globe | WBUR | Unbound Newsletter | Justice By Design Podcast
Barb McQuade: Bluesky | Twitter | University of Michigan Law | Just Security | MSNBC
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00:00:00
(upbeat music)
00:00:02
- Welcome back to #SistersInLaw
00:00:13
with Joyce Vance, Jill Weinbanks, and me, Barbara McWade.
00:00:17
Kimberly Atkins' store is away this week,
00:00:20
but we look forward to her return next week.
00:00:23
Don't forget to check out our merch store.
00:00:25
We restocked everything in time for the holidays.
00:00:27
Just go to politicon.com/merch.
00:00:30
Now let's get on to the show,
00:00:32
where this week we'll be discussing
00:00:33
the nomination of Pam Bondi as Attorney General,
00:00:37
the new guardrails that give us some hope from the States,
00:00:40
and the status of the Donald Trump criminal cases
00:00:44
in the States.
00:00:46
But first before we get rolling sisters,
00:00:49
I wanted to ask you about Thanksgiving.
00:00:51
I'm finally peeling myself up off the floor after the election,
00:00:55
and I'm looking forward to Thanksgiving,
00:00:58
spending some time with family,
00:00:59
and sustaining myself, and getting away a little bit.
00:01:03
How about you, what are your plans for Thanksgiving?
00:01:05
Joyce, let me ask you.
00:01:07
- Yes, so we're really excited,
00:01:09
because we'll have all four of our kids home
00:01:11
for a very, very brief period of time.
00:01:15
So that'll be a lot of fun,
00:01:17
and I'm gonna actually cook just a separate Thanksgiving,
00:01:19
just for us, because we do a much larger Thanksgiving
00:01:23
that one of our friends hosts,
00:01:26
and it's sort of big and spread out
00:01:28
in a great opportunity to catch up with people.
00:01:30
So we're hoping to have the best of both worlds this year.
00:01:33
- No, it sounds nice.
00:01:35
- How about you, Jill?
00:01:35
What are your Thanksgiving plans?
00:01:37
- I am going to a friend's home.
00:01:40
Someone I've been very different with for a long time,
00:01:43
part of my Quince group, which I know I've mentioned before,
00:01:47
the group that I talk politics with every week by Zoom.
00:01:51
It started during COVID to keep us sane
00:01:53
and has continued even now.
00:01:55
And she does all the work.
00:01:58
I'm gonna bring a jello mold,
00:02:00
because that is my family's tradition is jello molds.
00:02:04
And I'm gonna bring at least one,
00:02:05
maybe two different jello molds.
00:02:07
And it's so wonderful to have friends
00:02:09
that are as good as family.
00:02:12
- No, that's nice.
00:02:13
We are also gonna have all four of our kids together.
00:02:16
So I'm excited about that.
00:02:18
We are, as we often do, going to visit the in-laws
00:02:21
for Thanksgiving, and it'll be really fun
00:02:23
to have all the kids together.
00:02:26
We usually do like a football game.
00:02:30
If there's snow, we often play football in the snow,
00:02:32
probably not this year, but I'm sure we'll do some football.
00:02:36
We also do our own family turkey trot,
00:02:39
where we run a little 5K in the late morning
00:02:42
to build up our appetites for the feast.
00:02:45
We probably burn about 200 calories on the run,
00:02:49
and then consume about 1,000 calories in pie.
00:02:51
So we're a big pie family, so we'll look forward to that.
00:02:54
What's your favorite pie bar?
00:02:56
So there's certainly pumpkin and apple are good,
00:03:00
but there's this great pie available in Michigan
00:03:02
called Traverse City for Berry.
00:03:05
It is so good.
00:03:06
It's got Traverse City cherries and blueberries
00:03:09
and I don't know, raspberries and strawberries.
00:03:10
It's just bursting with berry flavor.
00:03:13
I'm sure there's a lot of sugar in it too,
00:03:15
but it's so good.
00:03:16
Do you guys have a favorite pie?
00:03:17
- You know, your sounds really good.
00:03:19
I love berry pie with ice cream on it.
00:03:21
I'm sort of a purest at Thanksgiving.
00:03:23
I'm all about pumpkin and pecan.
00:03:25
- Oh, pecan.
00:03:26
That's a soldered thing, isn't it?
00:03:28
- I'm a totally apple, but also lemon.
00:03:32
Nobody else wants my lemon.
00:03:34
- I like lemon.
00:03:34
- But I like lime and lemon.
00:03:38
But you're having a run before sounds like such a great idea.
00:03:42
I love it, but we've already had snow,
00:03:44
so maybe you'll get your snow.
00:03:46
- Yeah, we might know.
00:03:46
- Yeah, we had a little dusting, too.
00:03:49
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00:06:34
Well, we now know that the nomination of Matt Gates
00:06:47
lasted less than one scare of moochie.
00:06:50
You guys remember that term?
00:06:52
-Scare of moochie. -I absolutely.
00:06:54
Yeah, Anthony scare moochie was Donald Trump's press secretary
00:06:57
who lasted, I think, was it 10 days?
00:07:00
-Yeah, I think so, maybe less. -Yeah.
00:07:02
So he lasted eight days,
00:07:05
but the former Florida congressman is out.
00:07:08
He has withdrawn as Trump's nominee
00:07:10
to be the next Attorney General.
00:07:11
It became apparent that his history of alleged sexual misconduct
00:07:17
and very thin resume as a lawyer,
00:07:19
a practice for less than two years in private practice,
00:07:21
was not going to cut it with even Republican members
00:07:24
of the Senate.
00:07:25
And so now Pam Bondi is in.
00:07:28
So let's dig into this new development.
00:07:31
Jill, first, what happened to Gates?
00:07:33
Why did he withdraw his name from consideration?
00:07:36
Of course, what is being said is not necessarily
00:07:40
what actually happened.
00:07:41
So some speculation is required to answer your question.
00:07:47
There's the most, I would say,
00:07:49
devious plan that's being discussed
00:07:53
was that this was a deliberate strategy
00:07:56
to take attention off all the other bad nominees
00:08:00
that Donald Trump has mentioned,
00:08:03
and that by making this really awful person
00:08:06
who wasn't liked by any of his fellow congressman
00:08:10
and who clearly had no qualifications.
00:08:14
He had no prosecution experience.
00:08:15
He had no real trial experience.
00:08:18
He had no management experience.
00:08:20
So he really wasn't qualified to be the Attorney General
00:08:24
and he wasn't liked, so he wasn't going to get the votes.
00:08:27
And it was pretty clear that although the Senate
00:08:29
was maybe going to cave to a lot of what Donald Trump wanted,
00:08:34
this was one that might not make it.
00:08:36
So there is this theory that he was nominated
00:08:39
just to take attention off all the others.
00:08:42
He withdrew from Congress.
00:08:44
He resigned from Congress to prevent
00:08:47
the release of a apparently very bad report
00:08:52
from the House Ethics Committee.
00:08:54
But it would have come out if he had gone forward
00:08:58
with the nomination.
00:08:59
If he had gone to hearings, I think there's no question
00:09:02
it would have come out.
00:09:04
So I'm not sure he ever really intended to stay in it.
00:09:07
And he was nominated after flying on a plane
00:09:10
and with Donald Trump and having it announced immediately.
00:09:13
And it may have just been a plot
00:09:15
to take attention from other bad nominees.
00:09:18
- Jill, it's really interesting that you mentioned that
00:09:19
because Joyce, I want to ask you
00:09:21
whether you think the Gates nomination
00:09:23
was ever intended to go through
00:09:25
or was it simply a ploy to get out
00:09:28
from under the Ethics investigation
00:09:30
for child sex trafficking allegations?
00:09:33
- Yeah, according to Matt Gates,
00:09:36
this is sort of a witch hunt.
00:09:38
It's just an effort to detract from Donald Trump
00:09:41
getting his administration off to a good start,
00:09:44
which is all to say, of course this was a ploy
00:09:47
for him to resign from Congress without having to say
00:09:50
he was doing it to keep the report from coming out.
00:09:53
I mean, there's no such thing as coincidence
00:09:56
when it comes to timing like that.
00:09:57
He resigns out of the blue just a couple of days
00:10:01
before the report is getting it released.
00:10:03
There's no need to resign from Congress
00:10:05
to go through a confirmation proceeding.
00:10:08
Nobody ever does that.
00:10:09
It's pretty unprecedented.
00:10:10
I just think that we don't have to check our common sense
00:10:14
at the door when we evaluate how these people behave.
00:10:17
And Gates was clearly trying to avoid
00:10:20
public release of this report.
00:10:22
It's pretty interesting because now he faces this conundrum.
00:10:26
He was reelected to the next Congress.
00:10:28
If he actually goes in and takes the oath
00:10:30
and becomes a member of Congress again,
00:10:32
then the report is back in play, right?
00:10:36
It can be released again, probably would be.
00:10:38
So I'm just gonna crystal ball.
00:10:40
I never like to use my crystal ball, but I will here.
00:10:43
I think we'll see Matt Gates going to Donald Trump's
00:10:46
administration in some capacity
00:10:48
that does not require Senate confirmation.
00:10:50
- Oh, that's super interesting.
00:10:52
Yeah, that is, Jill, do you have a thought?
00:10:55
- Well, the only thing that I have read
00:10:57
is that he announced that he would not take the oath
00:11:01
for the second turn.
00:11:02
- Well, yeah, he absolutely said he wouldn't take the oath,
00:11:04
but if you notice when he said that,
00:11:07
it was in connection with he wouldn't take the oath
00:11:09
because he intended to serve as the next attorney general.
00:11:13
I think now that the attorney general seat is not in play,
00:11:17
that's not worth the paper.
00:11:18
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, I never believed it anyway,
00:11:22
but that's what I missed that part
00:11:24
about in connection with serving.
00:11:27
- Well, regardless of what has happened to Matt Gates
00:11:30
and where he might end up, whether it's back in Congress
00:11:33
or somewhere else in Trump's administration
00:11:36
without confirmation, we do have a new nominee
00:11:39
for attorney general and Matt's Pam Bondy.
00:11:42
Jill, I wanna ask you just solely focusing
00:11:45
on her professional experience.
00:11:47
I'm not looking at maybe her political activity
00:11:50
or any scandals or other things,
00:11:52
but what do you think about her professional experience
00:11:55
in terms of qualifications to be the attorney general
00:11:58
of the United States?
00:11:59
You know, the only thing that is official
00:12:01
in terms of qualifications is the Judiciary Act of 1789
00:12:06
says that the attorney general should be somebody
00:12:08
who is, quote, "learned in the law."
00:12:11
And that's all that is required.
00:12:13
What do you think about her professional experience?
00:12:15
- So Bob, you're asking me to do something hard,
00:12:17
which is to ignore the obvious political nature.
00:12:21
- Now, we'll come back to that, but ignoring that.
00:12:24
Professionally, I have to say, she's a really good choice.
00:12:28
She was the attorney general of Florida for eight years.
00:12:31
She served two terms and that's all
00:12:33
that you're allowed in Florida.
00:12:35
So she ran a big office, which means she has management
00:12:39
experience, she has legal experience,
00:12:42
she has prosecution experience.
00:12:45
I don't think there's anything that we can say
00:12:47
against her professional qualifications.
00:12:50
- Yeah.
00:12:51
Oh, wait, yes, absolutely.
00:12:52
We can't-- - Oh, go ahead.
00:12:54
Please do.
00:12:55
- I mean, you know, I'll just say,
00:12:57
Florida is obviously in my circuit in the 11th,
00:13:00
but I've talked with folks over there.
00:13:03
And I think the nicest thing that I've heard
00:13:05
from somebody in Florida is that she surrounds herself
00:13:08
with smart people.
00:13:09
That's a really good trait to have as a leader.
00:13:13
But she does not have a reputation as a legal scholar
00:13:18
or as a tactical one.
00:13:20
And there's some sense that she was more
00:13:22
of a public spokesman in that regard than an attorney general.
00:13:27
And look, I know you want to talk about politics in a second,
00:13:30
but let's talk about character.
00:13:32
This is a woman who before she was the attorney general,
00:13:35
after Hurricane Katrina, she adopted a dog.
00:13:39
And it turned out that that dog belonged to people
00:13:42
who were Katrina victims.
00:13:44
And she refused to give them their dog back.
00:13:47
She fought them in a court battle for 16 months
00:13:49
over custody of the dog and was finally forced to return it.
00:13:53
Y'all, that is not someone who has the character
00:13:55
to be the attorney general of the United States.
00:13:58
- That is for sure.
00:13:59
And that was a major concern I have about her,
00:14:03
but Barbara limited me to her professional experience.
00:14:07
- Yep, yep.
00:14:08
Well, I didn't talk about politics.
00:14:09
I talked about professional temperaments.
00:14:11
So, okay.
00:14:12
- We can talk about politics whenever Barb is ready.
00:14:14
- Yeah, I just want to say one more thing
00:14:15
about her qualifications.
00:14:16
She did serve as a line prosecutor for,
00:14:21
I think about 10 years.
00:14:22
And that, usually to me, says you've got some chops, right?
00:14:24
You've got to try cases.
00:14:26
Cases are staffed pretty thinly.
00:14:29
You know, it's not like you're the fourth chair on a case.
00:14:32
Like you are in court building a thick skin.
00:14:35
So that says something to me.
00:14:37
I agree with you that as an elected AG,
00:14:39
it could be someone who's hands on
00:14:41
and making very strong management decisions
00:14:42
and leading a large office.
00:14:44
Or it could be that you hand off those duties to a deputy
00:14:47
and you're more of the figure head.
00:14:49
I don't know what role she played there.
00:14:51
But nonetheless, I will say that on paper,
00:14:53
those are qualifications that make somebody
00:14:55
an adequate candidate.
00:14:59
Janet Reno, she had never served in the Department of Justice.
00:15:02
She had been a prosecutor and she had led a county office
00:15:05
that Miami-Dade County.
00:15:07
And now we've got Bondi who is not only a county prosecutor,
00:15:10
but was the head as the state AG.
00:15:12
So I think on paper, her qualifications are fine.
00:15:15
But now let's talk about our concern
00:15:18
about number one, her integrity and number two,
00:15:20
her loyalty to Donald Trump.
00:15:21
'Cause both of those things concern me.
00:15:23
So Jill, what do we know about Bondi's integrity
00:15:27
that perhaps concerns you?
00:15:28
- So I would put in the integrity category,
00:15:31
keeping someone's dog when you, I mean,
00:15:34
Joyce and I would fight to the death to protect our dogs.
00:15:38
And anybody who would do that is a monster.
00:15:42
I'm sorry, there's just no getting around it.
00:15:44
- And what someone said, this is my beloved pet.
00:15:45
Of course she give it back, right?
00:15:47
The idea like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:15:49
- And their Katrina victim.
00:15:51
They've been through this traumatic hurricane.
00:15:53
And then he won't give them their dogs.
00:15:55
I mean, no, we're done right there.
00:15:57
- It's unbelievable.
00:15:58
But then I would add, I mean, that's obviously
00:16:02
an overwhelming character flaw.
00:16:04
But in addition, there are some other things
00:16:07
that would concern me about her integrity.
00:16:11
And that is some of the arguments,
00:16:13
and we've already said she was sort of a spokesman.
00:16:17
And some of those arguments I think were so ill-founded
00:16:21
that it makes me wonder about her integrity
00:16:24
in bringing cases and making arguments
00:16:26
that don't have really sound legal basis.
00:16:31
So that would concern me about her integrity.
00:16:34
And there was this investigation,
00:16:36
I guess it never amounted to anything
00:16:39
about her having received, I think it was $25,000
00:16:44
as a campaign contribution from Donald Trump's PAC
00:16:49
when she was deciding whether to indict the Trump University
00:16:55
and which she ultimately decided not to.
00:16:57
Now she says that she wasn't aware of the contribution
00:17:01
and that could be true, so we don't know
00:17:03
because nothing ever came of it.
00:17:05
But it's something that, again, makes me wonder,
00:17:07
she should have given the money back.
00:17:09
If she didn't know about it, she should have given it back.
00:17:11
And that would have made me feel better about her integrity.
00:17:14
- Yeah, how about you Joyce?
00:17:17
Both the integrity question and Bondi's loyalty
00:17:22
to Donald Trump and her history with Donald Trump.
00:17:24
What about that?
00:17:25
Do you have any concerns there?
00:17:26
I have some.
00:17:27
- You cannot be an election denier
00:17:30
and be the attorney general of the United States.
00:17:33
And Bondi is an election denier.
00:17:35
And you know, there's something else troubling
00:17:38
and I don't know what the date of this was.
00:17:40
I spent some time last night trying to chase down the video,
00:17:43
but my impression is that this is something
00:17:45
that happened on the campaign trail for 2024.
00:17:49
Bondi is at a Trump rally.
00:17:51
There's a man in the crowd who's holding up a sign
00:17:53
that says lock her up, you know, like, I mean,
00:17:56
the crazy people, right?
00:17:58
Bondi sort of points out into the audience
00:18:02
and she agrees she repeats it, lock her up.
00:18:05
Look, this isn't what attorneys general do.
00:18:07
It doesn't matter if they're Republicans or Democrats.
00:18:09
Their commitment is to the facts and the law.
00:18:12
Their oath is to the Constitution.
00:18:15
Not to use the Justice Department
00:18:17
as a political tool for a president to punish his enemies.
00:18:21
I think she's not qualified on that basis.
00:18:24
I worry that she's going to get confirmed nonetheless,
00:18:27
but I hope that the Republicans in the Senate
00:18:29
will do their damn job because they are the only fire
00:18:32
while we have left on these nominations.
00:18:34
And you know, when we talk about loyalty,
00:18:36
particularly in this administration,
00:18:40
particularly in late of what we've read of Project 2025
00:18:45
and what we have heard from the president elect,
00:18:48
we have to worry about whether that loyalty means
00:18:52
that she will allow the Department of Justice
00:18:55
to be the personal law firm of Donald Trump.
00:18:58
And that makes it more serious a question than in past cases.
00:19:03
I mean, we've had the brother of the president,
00:19:06
Robert F. Kennedy was the attorney general
00:19:09
and no one questioned that he was going to abuse
00:19:12
the Department of Justice and use it
00:19:14
for the political purposes of his brother.
00:19:18
And so it's not just loyalty,
00:19:20
it's that in this particular circumstance,
00:19:22
loyalty becomes a questionable factor.
00:19:26
- Yeah, so let me just say this.
00:19:27
First, Joyce, I didn't think I could love you more,
00:19:31
but I love the way you through the phrase,
00:19:32
"Attorneys General" in the middle of your sentence.
00:19:36
Well done, love that.
00:19:37
I can't stand when someone says, "Attorney Generals."
00:19:39
Now, this is one of those few instances
00:19:42
where we say, "Attorneys General."
00:19:44
Love it.
00:19:45
But yeah, I agree with you that I have some concerns.
00:19:48
You know, one, there is the accepting the $25,000
00:19:52
contribution from the Trump foundation four days
00:19:56
before she declined to prosecute Trump University.
00:19:59
You know, she denied wrongdoing,
00:20:01
the Florida ethics panel cleared her,
00:20:04
whatever that means.
00:20:05
But I think that the Senate really needs to dig into that
00:20:08
a little bit more.
00:20:09
I want to know more about that.
00:20:11
Joyce, the politics do trouble me.
00:20:14
Certainly, you know, Jeff Sessions campaigned
00:20:17
for Donald Trump, but not in the way that Pam Bondi has
00:20:21
with, you know, really being a Fox News personality
00:20:25
promoting his agenda.
00:20:28
And in particular, I also watched a video, Joyce,
00:20:31
where someone in the crowd starts chanting, "Lock her up,"
00:20:34
and she says, "Lock her up."
00:20:36
I love that.
00:20:37
Lock her up.
00:20:38
So I think it might be the same one that we both saw,
00:20:41
'cause that's the following one.
00:20:43
So troubling, because that is a real attack
00:20:47
on the rule of law, right?
00:20:48
That's the idea that we're going to lock up Hillary Clinton
00:20:50
because she is Donald Trump's political rival.
00:20:54
Prosecutors have to rise above that.
00:20:56
An attorney general has to rise above that
00:20:58
and say there are politics, and then there is the rule of law.
00:21:01
And if the Department of Justice politics may never play
00:21:04
a role in who gets prosecuted.
00:21:06
So I found that to be deeply disturbing.
00:21:09
You know, she's been very conservative.
00:21:11
She was part of the group of attorney's general.
00:21:14
Mary did it again, who brought challenges
00:21:18
to the Affordable Care Act.
00:21:20
She has been an opponent to marriage equality,
00:21:25
same sex marriage.
00:21:28
I suppose, you know, with a president like Donald Trump,
00:21:32
that part is to be expected.
00:21:34
But I think it's some of these other things
00:21:36
that I worry about, adequate independence.
00:21:39
And Jill, you know, you mentioned this idea
00:21:40
that John F. Kennedy appointed his brother
00:21:42
to be the attorney general.
00:21:44
But that was pre-watergate.
00:21:46
Jill, have you ever heard of watergate?
00:21:50
No, I know you haven't.
00:21:51
I know you haven't.
00:21:52
But I just want to--
00:21:53
You've worked to me.
00:21:54
I just want to raise this point, which is
00:21:57
the post-watergate norms are all about independence
00:22:01
between the White House and the Justice Department.
00:22:03
That never used to be the case.
00:22:05
We didn't worry about it.
00:22:06
But after what we saw happen in Watergate,
00:22:08
there have been these memos that go out every administration
00:22:12
that limits communication between the Justice Department
00:22:15
and the White House to avoid any sort of even
00:22:18
appearance of partisan politics playing a role.
00:22:21
Certainly, the Justice Department will advance
00:22:24
and work to fulfill and execute the president's priorities.
00:22:27
And so if the president says we want
00:22:29
to focus on immigration enforcement or whatever it is,
00:22:32
yes, they should do that.
00:22:33
But it's this case by case.
00:22:35
I want you to go after this person.
00:22:36
I want you to not go after that person
00:22:38
that we have worked very hard to avoid since the watergate
00:22:41
era.
00:22:42
And I worry that we may see a crumbling of that norm
00:22:46
with the appointment of Pambondi.
00:22:48
And I worry greatly about it, because it
00:22:50
is a very emotional part of my life to think about that.
00:22:56
During the crime of Watergate, during the trial,
00:23:02
John Dean, the counsel to the president, White House
00:23:04
counsel, was in direct communication
00:23:08
with my former boss, Henry Peterson,
00:23:11
the head of the criminal division of the Department of Justice,
00:23:14
who was giving them all the information
00:23:17
about the investigation.
00:23:19
That is what led to changes in the rules of ethics
00:23:23
and the line between the White House
00:23:27
and the Department of Justice, a line which I think
00:23:29
is absolutely essential.
00:23:31
But let me just say something about the Attorney General,
00:23:34
because you mentioned that she had defended something
00:23:40
that we probably would not.
00:23:42
We wouldn't agree with on LGBTQ and gay marriage,
00:23:46
a same-sex marriage.
00:23:49
When you are the Attorney General, part of your job
00:23:52
is to defend state laws and state agencies,
00:23:56
whether you agree with it or not.
00:23:59
When I took the role first as Solicitor General,
00:24:01
and then as Deputy Attorney General,
00:24:03
I made it clear that if it came up,
00:24:06
and there was some restrictions put on abortion and Illinois,
00:24:10
I would not argue that because I was firmly against it.
00:24:14
And I knew that the Attorney General,
00:24:17
because he was very strongly Catholic, was not in that view.
00:24:22
I also told him I was going to do everything
00:24:24
I could to change his mind on that issue, which I believe I did.
00:24:29
But basically, the Attorney General is elected to defend.
00:24:33
And so I'd not going to blame her because it was a state
00:24:36
law she was defending.
00:24:39
Yep, that's a really good point.
00:24:40
Well, why don't we leave it there?
00:24:42
But it'll be interesting to see how this nomination plays through.
00:24:46
I will say this.
00:24:49
I don't think she is a perfect candidate.
00:24:51
I think she's probably a pretty flawed candidate.
00:24:53
But I'm really glad it's not going to be Matt Gaetz.
00:24:57
You know, don't you worry about that.
00:24:59
I mean, not to belabor the point.
00:25:00
But I just have to say this.
00:25:02
I feel like Matt Gaetz was a little bit of a lost leader,
00:25:04
right?
00:25:05
I'm talking to everybody.
00:25:06
Sure.
00:25:07
Absolutely.
00:25:08
Wow, Pam Bondy was good by comparison.
00:25:11
We have to resist that temptation, right?
00:25:13
We deserve a good, qualified, and well-ethicked attorney general.
00:25:20
Yeah, that's a good point.
00:25:21
We don't have to turn them in.
00:25:22
We don't have to turn them in.
00:25:23
Yeah.
00:25:24
I mean, we need better than Donald Trump's level.
00:25:25
There's something it's called the anchoring effect, right?
00:25:26
You set this expectation and then it's very easy to exceed that expectation.
00:25:32
So well, Matt Gaetz was bad, but I guess Jack the Ripper.
00:25:34
We all good on Jack the Ripper.
00:25:35
I think so.
00:25:36
Let's hope it's confirmed.
00:25:37
I mean, that I'm good on Kalsa Gabbard or that I'm good on Hegseth.
00:25:43
I would say those are two that I just have to really say, I hope that the line hasn't been
00:25:49
put solo by Matt Gaetz that they fly through.
00:25:52
I mean, and look, Robert Kennedy too.
00:25:54
And this is the realistic challenge that the Senate faces.
00:25:57
I mean, the president is the leader of your party.
00:26:00
If you just refuse to confirm any of his nominees, you can't piss him off.
00:26:03
And with Donald Trump, that's a real risk.
00:26:06
But these nominees are so just far out of bounds, so far beyond the norms, so far beyond what
00:26:13
the American people are entitled to.
00:26:15
It's going to be a real challenge for this Senate.
00:26:17
And I fear that Republican senators who fail to impeach Donald Trump will not be up for
00:26:22
the challenge and we will all pay the price.
00:26:33
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00:29:04
So we all understand the risk in this new Trump administration.
00:29:07
The adults have left the room, the traditional guardrails are finished and gone, but nature
00:29:13
rapport is a vacuum, and already we're seeing some signs of new guardrails, albeit a little
00:29:19
bit further back from the road that are possibly emerging.
00:29:23
You know, I'm not sure I'd go so far as to suggest that I'm feeling optimistic.
00:29:28
It's more like the suggestion that we have some grounds for hope, so I thought after the
00:29:33
conversation about Pam Bondy that maybe we'd spend a little bit of time today exploring
00:29:38
the possibility for these new guardrails in some unexpected places.
00:29:42
In a Trump administration without traditional guardrails, where might new ones crop up?
00:29:48
So Barb, earlier this week, you flagged the situation for us about what's going on in
00:29:52
Oklahoma, where local officials stood up to a Bible-thump and school sleeper attendant.
00:29:57
Can you tell us about what's going on there and what sort of potential that might signal
00:30:02
for reestablishing guardrails?
00:30:04
Yeah, so this gave me a little bit of hope.
00:30:06
You know that there was this push to have Christian Bible lessons implemented into a school district,
00:30:13
and there was a push back from that, you know, in Oklahoma, which is a red state, under the
00:30:18
theory that there is a separation between church and state in this country, and that the
00:30:23
first amendment has two key provisions, the free exercise of religion and the anti-establishment
00:30:31
clause.
00:30:32
There is no established religion.
00:30:33
So I thought it was reassuring, I think, that this movement to push toward, you know, Christian
00:30:43
Bible influence in our public schools was push back, that gives me a little bit of hope.
00:30:48
But of course, it's not what's happening everywhere.
00:30:51
Yeah, so do you think it's possible that we could see something like this where local officials
00:30:57
take it upon themselves to do the right thing?
00:30:59
I mean, intrigued because jolidmade.com, earlier about how, as the state's attorney general,
00:31:05
you're obligated to argue in favor of state laws or work that counties are doing, whether
00:31:11
you agree or not.
00:31:13
And here, you know, we don't know what the prevailing mood was in in Oklahoma, but I suspect
00:31:17
that there were some people who are religious in their personal lives who said, look, we can't
00:31:22
force this on other people, this violates the first amendment.
00:31:25
Do you think that there's hope that we'll see more local officials doing that?
00:31:28
Yeah, I don't know.
00:31:30
And, you know, I worry about it a little bit just because it means that within a state, you're
00:31:34
going to have this patchwork of some places where there is a separation of church and state
00:31:38
and other places where, you know, everybody's forced to watch videos about the Bible and
00:31:45
other kinds of things.
00:31:46
The thing in Oklahoma was especially egregious because it was all about the state superintendent
00:31:51
kind of promoting himself.
00:31:53
He created a video of himself and required every district to show the video.
00:32:00
You know, there was at the time, some accusation that he was sort of campaigning to be Trump's
00:32:07
secretary of education.
00:32:08
Of course, that was foolish because as we know, someone who is an educator has no chance
00:32:13
of being selected as the secretary of education.
00:32:15
You have to apparently be involved in--
00:32:16
In fact, you have to have lied, right?
00:32:18
You have to have lied about your college degree to be the secretary of education.
00:32:22
You have to be involved instead in professional wrestling.
00:32:25
So that was what happened there.
00:32:27
And I think some of it may have just been, you know, personal distaste for the way this
00:32:31
guy was trying to grandstand about it.
00:32:35
It's also the fact that he was going to buy the Trump Bible to put in schools.
00:32:42
So it's not just a Bible, it's the Trump Bible.
00:32:45
That was Trump Bible for everybody, yeah.
00:32:47
Well, that's because you must buy a Bible that includes the Declaration of Independence
00:32:52
and the U.S. Constitution and the only Bibles that have those things because of our separation
00:32:56
of church and state is, in fact, the Trump Bible.
00:32:59
Right.
00:33:00
Okay.
00:33:01
Well, look, I hear your point that this might just be a one-off, but I'm hopeful that there
00:33:07
are more righteous local officials out there who will want to do the right thing.
00:33:11
But, you know, Jill, we're also seeing more generally in blue states, governors, attorneys
00:33:16
general.
00:33:17
That's, I think, the third time we've done that in the show, attorneys general, working
00:33:21
together and separately, to take steps to protect not just their own citizens, but people in
00:33:27
other states.
00:33:28
We're seeing that happen on reproductive rights and a horde of other sorts of issues.
00:33:33
Do you think that there is potential here for these elected state officials to become
00:33:37
guardrails, Jill?
00:33:38
I think that governors and attorneys general, number four, and the funny thing is a first
00:33:44
show in general.
00:33:46
That's the name of the episode.
00:33:48
Yes, now attorneys general, but doesn't it come off your tongue naturally?
00:33:52
I can't even imagine saying attorney general, but when I hear it doesn't it make you crazy?
00:33:56
It makes me cringe.
00:33:57
It does.
00:33:58
It does.
00:33:59
But anyway, I think there has been a lot of creativity from governors and attorneys general
00:34:04
who have banded together from blue states.
00:34:06
There is a democratic attorney general's association as well as an attorney general association
00:34:14
that have gotten together to try to predict what's going to happen next and what can they
00:34:20
do to protect their citizens and citizens as you said from other states.
00:34:28
There's an interesting statistic which is that there were 130 cases brought in the Trump
00:34:33
administration in his first term, just 130 in his first term, with an 83% win brought
00:34:42
by democratic attorneys general.
00:34:44
There were only 60 brought in Obama's two terms, so that's like half of what one term was,
00:34:51
and they had only a 63% win rate.
00:34:54
Biden, I'm not sure what the number was, but they have a lower rate than the 83%.
00:35:01
So the Democratic Attorneys General Association has been doing a lot.
00:35:06
Governors have spoken up, Newsom has called a special session to deal with climate change
00:35:11
and reproductive rights, and Trump has now started threatening states voting rules as a result
00:35:20
of all this.
00:35:21
But he really can't because the president has nothing to do with state voting rules.
00:35:27
That doesn't prevent him from, you know, challenging it and saying he will.
00:35:31
New York's AG and governor have spoken up Massachusetts.
00:35:37
Many have said they will not help with the mass deportation.
00:35:41
Of course, Trump is threatening funding of those states that don't cooperate with him.
00:35:47
So there is a risk from standing up to him and not doing it.
00:35:52
But all these states are getting together, and besides bringing lawsuits, it's not the
00:35:59
only way that they can proceed.
00:36:01
They can write letters to congressional leaders on various issues.
00:36:04
They can issue comments on any kind of laws that are being proposed on rulemaking.
00:36:10
They can file amicus briefs or amicus, depending on how you want to say it, briefs, rather
00:36:16
than finding their own cases.
00:36:18
And my own governor is one of those who has said that he is going to protect travel to
00:36:23
Illinois as well as climate issues.
00:36:28
And he will do whatever he can to fight the deprivation of federal funding as a result
00:36:35
of his actions.
00:36:38
And Wes Moore and Barb, your governor, Gretchen Whitmer, have taken a more nuanced stand
00:36:47
or weaker, depending on how you view it, saying, well, we're going to seek common ground,
00:36:52
as opposed to saying we're standing up to this.
00:36:55
Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro said the same thing.
00:37:01
Governor Walts from Minnesota sort of took a stronger position than they did, but not as
00:37:08
strong as others.
00:37:10
But he did say he would defend against, you know, for gun restrictions, for abortion rights,
00:37:16
for climate change, for labor rights.
00:37:18
So I think the governors in the attorneys general are really prepared to take action and
00:37:23
protect people coming into their state to exercise their rights.
00:37:28
And it'll be interesting to see what happens.
00:37:31
And I'm looking forward to I wish we had the guardrails in the federal government, but I'm
00:37:39
glad to know that this happens.
00:37:43
Well, you know, Barb, that's a fair point.
00:37:45
Are there any guardrails left inside of the federal government?
00:37:48
And some people, some of our former colleagues and friends, have suggested that there may
00:37:54
be guardrails inside of the house, that people like the deputy attorney general nominee
00:37:58
Todd Blanche or the nominee to be the paydeck, Emil Bovy, both raised as prosecutors in that
00:38:05
important cradle of the Southern District of New York and well aware of the expectations
00:38:10
of their former colleagues, will be willing to implement Trump's policies, but not to do
00:38:15
his bidding in an ethical fashion.
00:38:18
I confess, I'm not convinced.
00:38:20
I mean, I am very worried that these folks would not be Trump's nominees unless he understood
00:38:25
that they were willing to use the Justice Department as a political tool.
00:38:29
But tell me what your read is on this situation.
00:38:31
Do you think there's any reason for optimism?
00:38:33
I'm not sure.
00:38:35
I guess I would proceed with caution here.
00:38:38
You know, Trump himself is so willing to just bust through any norms and guardrails that
00:38:44
you have to wonder about anyone who associates with him.
00:38:47
But I think it is, I think it is also fair to see these two lawyers in the light of the legal
00:38:54
tradition in this country that every defendant is entitled to a defense, no matter how despicable
00:39:01
they may be.
00:39:02
I'm John Adams, represented the perpetrators of the Boston massacre and the British soldiers
00:39:12
who were involved in that.
00:39:14
He also represented the enslaved members of the ship who overtook and created mutiny
00:39:27
on the Amistad.
00:39:29
And so at the time, people would say, how can you defend those despicable people?
00:39:35
And I think that it's because everybody involved is entitled to a criminal defense.
00:39:41
You know, Joyce Angel have dealt with criminal defense attorneys who represent, you know,
00:39:49
child rapists, people who commit the worst crimes in the world.
00:39:54
And they will tell you that my job is not to say this is a good person.
00:39:57
My job is to make sure that this person gets the benefit of the Constitution, of their
00:40:03
legal rights, to make sure every statute is followed.
00:40:06
And I am there to safeguard the process.
00:40:08
And so that gives me a little bit of hope that perhaps, you know, I know they were assistant
00:40:12
US attorneys and their colleagues speak highly of them, that they are there because they
00:40:17
care about the process.
00:40:18
Now, Donald Trump probably thinks that they're going to be loyal to him.
00:40:22
But my hope is that they take seriously their oath to uphold the Constitution.
00:40:26
Yeah, you know, I side with you on this notion of never being critical of people, of lawyers,
00:40:32
because of who they've taken on as clients.
00:40:33
I think that everybody, even the most heinous criminals are entitled to defenses.
00:40:38
So it's not their representation of Donald Trump that concerns me.
00:40:42
It's that knowing what the playing field looks like, knowing that Trump has made it clear
00:40:46
that he intends to use the Justice Department for his political benefit, that they would
00:40:51
go ahead and sign on for the job anyhow.
00:40:55
And so, you know, the question is, are these people who really intend to insert their bodies
00:40:59
between Donald Trump and the Constitution and do the right thing?
00:41:04
You know, I hope that that's the case, but I'm not persuaded.
00:41:08
I would be really worried, Joyce, except I'm going to take the word of Mimi Roca, our
00:41:14
friend, the district attorney in Westchester.
00:41:18
And she knows Todd Blanche personally from having worked with him in the Southern District.
00:41:24
And she thinks that he will do the ethical right thing.
00:41:29
I assume he will withdraw from the defense of Donald Trump, if he is sworn in, because
00:41:38
there would be a clear conflict of interest where he-
00:41:40
Well, I mean, there won't be any more need, right?
00:41:42
One of the first things he might have to do as the deputy attorney general is to oversee
00:41:48
the dismissal of cases where he has represented Trump and the paydag won't be able to stand
00:41:54
in for him.
00:41:55
And it is a- it's a complicated situation.
00:41:58
Like you say, Jill Mimi, um, work with Todd, I think she actually supervised him, um, Barbzen,
00:42:04
my former colleague, Pete Barara promoted him, um, I think not once bit twice.
00:42:08
So look, my hope here is that, um, Blanche and Bovy and others will understand that the
00:42:16
eyes of the people who raise them as prosecutors are on them, and that will become a form of
00:42:22
a guardrail, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.
00:42:26
I know that there's something else that you wanted to talk about, Jill, as- as did I, and
00:42:31
that's whether or not there might be one other guardrail.
00:42:35
I mean, in the days after the election, I saw people saying that they were weary.
00:42:39
Don't ask me to do anything else.
00:42:41
I'm not going to go out and protest, you know, these folks said they, um, were saying that
00:42:46
protesting in other acts of civil disobedience weren't worth it.
00:42:50
And I've got to say that really cut me to the core because I do believe in in acts of protest,
00:42:54
both these big, large ones like the women's march and small acts of protest.
00:42:59
I believe in the First Amendment right of gathering in public to express our collective
00:43:03
views.
00:43:04
And I think we've seen signs in Europe and other democracies on the verge of failure that
00:43:09
getting people out on the streets can be a real catalyst for change.
00:43:13
So tell me what your read is on the situation is the public, the ultimate guardrail in the
00:43:17
new Trump era.
00:43:19
And do you think American citizens can succeed in being an effective guardrail even after
00:43:23
they return Trump to office?
00:43:25
So let me start with putting this in some historical context because I grew up in an age
00:43:32
of a lot of civil disobedience and civil unrest, the Vietnam War, the civil rights movement,
00:43:39
the Saturday night massacre.
00:43:41
And now all of this was before social media and right wing media.
00:43:48
So it may not work, but boy, it sure worked back then.
00:43:52
And I do believe because of that experience that it is possible for the people to be the
00:44:00
guardrail.
00:44:02
In the Watergate case, it was stacks of mail.
00:44:05
Nowadays it would be large protests and emails.
00:44:11
I think that it can work, but it can only work if the facts are accepted.
00:44:19
In the era of Watergate, there was no debate about what was true.
00:44:23
Nowadays, there is.
00:44:26
And what all three of us think is true is not necessarily accepted as the facts by a lot
00:44:33
of people.
00:44:34
And so public pressure hasn't materialized to the extent that I would like to see it.
00:44:40
And so I'm with you and saying to those people who are saying, I'm tired, I'm done.
00:44:45
And in fact, I was sort of, you know, the day after the election, I was in that care, I'm
00:44:50
done.
00:44:51
I am not doing anything anymore.
00:44:52
I am done, done, done.
00:44:53
I can't keep fighting this fight.
00:44:55
And then I started reading stuff and I even did an episode of Just the Facts about how I
00:45:00
came to say, no, I have to stay with us otherwise they win.
00:45:06
And so I am hoping that the public pressure will materialize and that it will again work.
00:45:12
And that at least it will keep in control, maybe not President Trump as 47, but that it
00:45:20
will make the people right under him take note and try to limit the damage.
00:45:26
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00:48:38
Ten days ago, district attorney Bragg and defense lawyers for Trump agreed to request a delay
00:48:43
in all proceedings in the New York election interference case, which is how I call it,
00:48:48
although the press always calls it the hush money case.
00:48:52
That trial resulted, of course, in Trump being convicted of 34 crimes, and he was awaiting
00:48:56
sentencing and a decision from Judge Mershahn about what impact, if any, the SCOTUS immunity
00:49:01
decision had on the admissibility of evidence presented at the trial.
00:49:06
So whether he might warrant a new trial because evidence had come in that shouldn't have.
00:49:11
But now the defense led by Trump's defense lawyers, Todd Blanche and Emil Bove, who Trump,
00:49:18
of course, plans as we've just been talking to nominate to be at the top of DOJ leadership,
00:49:23
have requested a total dismissal of that case.
00:49:26
The DA opposes that, Joyce.
00:49:29
What's the argument presented by Trump's lawyer and what's the DA's position?
00:49:33
Yeah, so the DA's position is that they're entitled to the benefit of their conviction.
00:49:39
But Trump has made this really, it's actually legally interesting, it's sort of a hybrid argument
00:49:44
saying that because some of the evidence that the district attorney used to convict him
00:49:50
is covered by the Supreme Court's presidential immunity decision that the conviction has to
00:49:55
be tossed out.
00:49:56
So they're talking about conversations that Trump had in the Oval Office with hope picks
00:50:01
that then became evidence in the case and they're saying that that tainted the conviction.
00:50:06
Judge Mershon will have an interesting, I think, decision in front of him because even if he finds
00:50:13
that that evidence should not have been used and that's frankly not clear cut by the way.
00:50:18
But even if he were to make that finding, there might be an argument that it was harmless air,
00:50:23
that it didn't impact the jury's verdict because they had plenty of other evidence to consider.
00:50:28
So in essence, for now, we're just in wait and see mode to see how the judge wants to call this
00:50:33
one.
00:50:34
And Barb, just today, Judge Mershon issued an order that delayed the scheduled sentencing,
00:50:42
which was scheduled for next week.
00:50:44
But he didn't delay it indefinitely, it's only one page, but I'd like you to talk about
00:50:50
what we learned from it and what's going to happen in the future, what's the briefing
00:50:54
schedule and will there be a sentencing before January 20th or is it going to wait till 2029?
00:50:59
No, interestingly, he wants to issue his decision on presidential immunity first,
00:51:06
and he wants to review the party's filings on this.
00:51:09
So I think it suggests that, you know, and he set a pretty aggressive briefing schedule,
00:51:14
that he wants the parties to respond within a week and then Trump's team to submit their
00:51:19
paperwork by December 9th.
00:51:21
So it sounds like he's actually moving pretty quickly, you know, he's got until January 20th,
00:51:25
when Trump is sworn in to kind of figure out what he wants to do here.
00:51:29
So I agree with Joyce that it seems like he wants to make this decision about whether,
00:51:33
you know, there is some evidence that came into the trial might fall into this category of
00:51:40
immune conduct and then a decision whether that taints the whole jury's verdict or
00:51:45
is really a harmless part of their verdict and then move on from there.
00:51:48
Now, maybe it's his intention to say I grant the motion for new trial, you know,
00:51:53
that this case was, you know, proper, but he's moving forward.
00:51:57
And so I guess I'm not sure how he might decide the case, but he has made no indication that
00:52:02
the case should be stopped simply because Donald Trump has been elected president.
00:52:05
So a couple things. One is I want to make clear that there are two different things going on here.
00:52:11
One is a new trial because of evidence coming in that shouldn't have come in.
00:52:17
And the other is to dismiss the case forever and always.
00:52:21
Okay, so let's talk about another state's case, which is in Georgia.
00:52:26
And it's been a long time since we've heard much about the election interference case in Georgia
00:52:32
that was brought by D.A. Fahny Willis against Trump and 18 co-defendants.
00:52:37
Some of those have pleaded guilty and I'm saying pleaded even though I personally would say pleaded.
00:52:42
Pleaded, pleaded. I will die on pleaded.
00:52:45
It's I would say pleaded, but I'm giving up on that.
00:52:48
Anyway, I always said pleaded pleaded.
00:52:50
Pleaded guilty and others have raised legal issues notably about recusing Willis
00:52:55
because of her relationship to the lead prosecutor she hired.
00:52:58
The trial court, Judge McCaffey, said that she could stay on condition that the lead prosecutor
00:53:04
resign, lead prosecutor resigned and she stayed.
00:53:07
That ruling was scheduled for oral argument in a Georgia court of appeals on December 5th.
00:53:12
But it was unceremoniously canceled with no reason stated.
00:53:17
So let's talk about that.
00:53:19
Joyce, why?
00:53:21
Why do you think it was delayed?
00:53:23
What's going on?
00:53:23
Well, look, we don't know the answer for sure because the court didn't see fit to tell us.
00:53:29
And that in and of its own is sort of the suggestion that this isn't on the up and up.
00:53:36
But I suspect what we're seeing here is part of this same phenomenon of Trump walking away
00:53:42
from these cases without any accountability in a way that no other defendant in the criminal
00:53:47
justice system would be able to by virtue of his reelection.
00:53:50
Georgia is politically a very conservative state.
00:53:54
I think that these judges know sort of where their bread is buttered.
00:53:59
And we will see this entire case unravel.
00:54:02
They will perhaps ultimately end up ruling that Bonnie Willis can't proceed.
00:54:07
It will be reassigned and that would probably be a death knell for the case.
00:54:12
And we may even see some sort of erosion on these folks who have already pled guilty.
00:54:17
I'm just not optimistic about the outcome in Georgia.
00:54:21
So yeah, do you think that the people who have pled guilty
00:54:27
would get off if this gets thrown out at some point?
00:54:33
Or do you think that this decision, this order to cancel the hearing could just be
00:54:39
that they're going to decide the case on the briefs submitted, not needing oral argument?
00:54:45
You know, they might do that, but I still don't take that as a good sign or a healthy sign.
00:54:51
In the normal course of business, these convictions should stick.
00:54:54
There's no reason for them not to the fact that Donald Trump has presidential immunity
00:54:59
or quasi-presidential immunity because this is a state case, shouldn't impact any other defendants.
00:55:05
But you know, this is the Trump era that we're living in.
00:55:08
So Bob, do you agree what happens to the co-defendants who are still awaiting trial
00:55:12
or to those who pled guilty?
00:55:14
Yeah, that is such an interesting situation, right?
00:55:16
And so, you know, at the moment the issue is whether there is this conflict with Bonnie Willis
00:55:23
that would require her recusal. I mean, for what? Keep in mind that that issue has absolutely nothing
00:55:29
to do with the guilt or innocence of any of these defendants. It has nothing to do with their
00:55:34
fair trial. It is an absolute side issue. I view it as something that is an ethical issue between Willis
00:55:40
and her voters not have anything to do with whether this, you know, I don't see how it could
00:55:45
taint this case in any way, but nonetheless, that's an issue going forward.
00:55:49
The other issue, Donald Trump is going to become president soon, and that means likely for four
00:55:55
years he cannot be put on trial. But that is not true with regard to these other defendants.
00:56:01
And in fact, because the public has a right to a speedy trial just as does a defendant,
00:56:07
it seems to me that we ought to be going forward with those cases against all of those people.
00:56:12
And that as Joyce says, these convictions for the people who've entered guilty, please,
00:56:17
you see what I did there? I voted pleaded or pleaded. They should stick. They entered guilty,
00:56:23
please, because they are guilty. And the idea that somehow funny Willis was having a personal
00:56:28
relationship with a co-prosecutor is completely irrelevant from all of that. In fact,
00:56:33
when you enter a guilty plea, you typically waive your rights to appeal issues other than actual
00:56:38
innocence. And so I think that those should stick and we should be plunging ahead with the
00:56:46
cases against the other defendants. Well, now comes the part of the show that really is our favorite,
00:56:59
the part where we answer your questions. If you have a question for us, please email us at
00:57:04
sisters-in-law at politicon.com or tag us on social media using hashtag sisters-in-law.
00:57:11
We are all now on threads and blue sky. Yeah, I love it. And it's been growing by the million.
00:57:20
So I hope to see all of you on blue sky as well. If we don't get to your question during
00:57:25
the show, please keep an eye on our feeds throughout the week. We will answer as many of your questions
00:57:30
as we can. So our first question comes to us from Ken in New Westminster, Canada.
00:57:37
Ken asks, did the founders make an error by not separating the executive, the president,
00:57:43
from the head of state? Jill, what do you think about that? So I'm so glad that we got a question
00:57:48
from Canada about our constitution. And so thank you for asking that question from Canada.
00:57:54
And I don't think so. Our constitution, including the separation of the executive from all the
00:58:02
other departments where there should be checks and balances, but leaving the head of state
00:58:06
and the head of the executive branch in one person has worked for over 236 years. So it's only now
00:58:14
where you have a completely unplanned for in the time of our founders, a criminal in office,
00:58:23
that this is not working. And I don't know that it would work any better if it was a separated
00:58:32
job anyway. And there are other things in the constitution that I would change first, which is like I
00:58:39
would add some penalty to violating the emoluments clause. And I would do away with the electoral college.
00:58:45
But in terms of making our government more like Britain, I don't think so.
00:58:50
All right. Well, there you go. Thank you, Canada, for asking about our constitution. I find that
00:58:57
our neighbors to the north knows so much more about us than we know about them. It embarrasses me. But
00:59:02
Canada's wonderful country, living in Michigan. I get a chance to travel there from time to time.
00:59:06
And I am a fan. All right. Next question comes to us from at Frank Edson, 24. Frank Edson, 24.
00:59:14
Who asks, who decides the cases, the attorney general and the DOJ prosecute? Joyce, that sounds like
00:59:21
something in your wheelhouse. Yeah. So you know, this is a great question. It's something I talk with my
00:59:27
law students about a lot because prosecutors now we're not talking about the attorney general and the
00:59:33
deputy attorney general. We're talking about line prosecutors across the country. They have
00:59:38
enormous discretion that they exercise to determine which cases do and don't get prosecuted.
00:59:44
The rule inside of the justice department is pretty straightforward. Prosecutors are forbidden
00:59:50
to indict a case unless they believe they have sufficient evidence to obtain a conviction
00:59:55
and to sustain it on trial. In other words, they have to believe that both the law and the facts
01:00:01
are on their side. And more or less, their decision is the last word. You know, sometimes a supervisor
01:00:08
might look over their shoulder and say, I think the evidence is a little bit better or a little bit
01:00:13
worse than you do, please reassess. But Washington isn't dipping down into the US attorney's office
01:00:19
in Birmingham and telling the line folks what cases to bring or not. What attorneys general do get
01:00:25
to do, I think that's six attorneys general for the show. What they do get to do is that they can set
01:00:30
priorities. So for instance, when Eric Holder was the attorney general, the top priority for
01:00:36
prosecution was national security foreign terrorism cases because there were problems across the
01:00:41
country. We focused on those heavily. Attorneys general will set different priorities. Violent
01:00:46
crime is usually up there. Civil rights for my way of thinking is not as high of a priorities. It
01:00:53
should be in many administrations. But you know, attorneys general say, I want to make that was eight.
01:00:59
I want to make sure that line prosecutors are giving these very important cases across the country,
01:01:05
a good hard look. And sometimes that might be as a new crime emerges as with sex trafficking
01:01:11
or online fraud. Nonetheless, the important thing here is that who the prosecutors are in any
01:01:17
given office has a real impact on what cases get done. Very good. All right. Our last question comes
01:01:25
to us from Linda in Sarasota, Florida. And she asks, is it a requirement that all nominees pass
01:01:32
the FBI's background check to lead departments that require them to have access to classified information?
01:01:40
Yes. So Linda, I'll tell you it's interesting. It is not a legal requirement, but it is a norm
01:01:47
that all presidential appointees go through a background investigation process. And so you
01:01:54
probably have read recently that Donald Trump is proposing either bypassing the FBI background
01:02:00
investigation or farming it out to a private company to do it. I think it's a terrible idea because
01:02:07
it is so important that we have clearances. Joyce and I certainly went through that process when we
01:02:12
were appointed US attorney. It is a very burdensome process. There's some concern. It slows down the
01:02:17
appointment process. There's some concern that it could even reveal, quote, embarrassing personal
01:02:22
information. Why, yes, it could. And that's the reason that we want to have these background
01:02:27
investigations because what we don't want is somebody, you know, the questions are, does, you know,
01:02:32
this person live beyond their means that could suggest that you are taking money that doesn't belong to
01:02:38
you or that you're receiving money from somebody who's exercising undue influence. If you have
01:02:45
something for which you could be blackmailed, you might be susceptible to sharing classified
01:02:50
secrets. It exchange for silence. If they know about, you know, an addiction or an extra marital
01:02:56
affair or any kind of thing that could be embarrassing to somebody. So all of these things, you know,
01:03:02
foreign context, foreign business interests, hidden business interests, all of these things
01:03:07
are really important. And so, but it is just a norm. There have been MOUs in place
01:03:12
since the Eisenhower administration where this has been done. And this is one of the things that
01:03:17
Donald Trump is looking at to streamline the process. And I would urge caution on this,
01:03:23
write your senators and tell them how much you, how important you think this is because this
01:03:27
information also then gets shared with the Senate when they do their confirmation process.
01:03:33
So if there is no background investigation, then there is no report for the senators to look at
01:03:39
when they are undertaking their confirmation process. So really important part of the equation
01:03:44
here. And one, I hope sticks around because I think we need it to ensure that our officials are
01:03:49
working for us and not for themselves or for some foreign adversary. And Barbara, if I can add,
01:03:56
it's not just when you're nominated to be the US attorney as a grade 11 attorney coming into
01:04:04
the Department of Justice. I went through a security clearance and it's outrageous that someone
01:04:11
at that level would have to go through a security clearance and that the head of any department
01:04:17
wouldn't have to. So I went through it then and then I went through another security clearance
01:04:23
when I was going to the Pentagon because there I was going to definitely have high-level
01:04:28
confidential information. But for that to happen and not really be a mandated, required thing is
01:04:36
it's outrageous. And in a normal world where the Senate exercised its advise and consent role,
01:04:42
they would not consent to the appointment of anybody who hadn't gone through that.
01:04:47
Acknowledging that the president can override a decision as he did with his son-in-law
01:04:52
about not getting cleared.
01:04:55
Well, thank you for listening to #SistersInLaw with Joyce Vance,
01:05:03
Jill Wine Banks, and me, Bart McQuade. Kim will be back to join us next week.
01:05:07
Follow #SistersInLaw on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. And please give us a five-star
01:05:13
review. It really helps others find the show. And please show some love to this week's sponsors,
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01:05:23
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01:05:29
Yeah, you know, so I'm actually having like a day where I've been running around like crazy
01:05:36
working all day. And I get a text message reminding me that today is Bella, my German shepherd,
01:05:43
it's Bella's day at the spa. I'm thinking something is wrong with this picture, right? I'm like,
01:05:49
I didn't even get to eat lunch. Bella is at the spa with cucumbers on her eyes or something.
01:05:53
So I've decided that I'm going to creep down to the kitchen on Thanksgiving after the day is done
01:05:58
with Bella. And instead of us going our separate ways, I think we'll share a little bit of pie
01:06:03
together. So what is happening at a dog spa? I need to know this. I've Brisbane's never been to a spa.
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Am I a bad mother? I signed her up for a bath. I mean, I didn't realize that there is more to it
01:06:14
than that, but this is like a great place. They've been texting me saying, "Bella's having a great
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time playing with the other dogs." Oh my god. So I'm just thinking Thanksgiving is going to be my
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special day. I've been working and running around like a crazy person. That's going to be my day.
