Ask David

Are You Getting Old and Cranky Now?

TEAM CBT and Spirituality

The answers to today's questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

1. Jenn asks: Are you getting old and cranky now?
2. Jenn also asks: How did you get involved with / develop the spiritual and enlightenment aspect of TEAM?

Dear Dr. Burns,

Let me start by saying thank you for all of your hard work and diligence in creating a method which is so user friendly. Completing the book, When Panic Attacks, changed my life and helped me reach enlightenment.

My Ask David question is inspired by the last few podcasts, the live session with Rhonda and the live session with Madelaine which David just did with Jill.

David has clearly worked so hard to create TEAM and has dedicated so much time to perfect it. I was lucky enough to have been introduced to the podcast when it first started. Some of my favorite episodes to listen to are the live therapy sessions. I've gained insight and felt heard through many of these such as when David told Lee how lonely enlightenment can be because I agree with that!

Recently I have noticed that David's demeanor has changed and was hoping to ask about it. I can imagine David might feel lonely in his expertise sometimes. I might be on the wrong track here too but I wonder if David might be feeling frustrated with the lack of understanding from people around him.

He has been dedicating his life to this and still people do not understand certain aspects of his research and teaching. On recent podcasts, David had mentioned that he gets more irritated with teaching now too and it has seemed like he is irritated with Rhonda at points.

He has mentioned that he feels disappointed if he doesn't see change in 2 hour sessions.

Recently I watched a live session with Madelaine and some of the techniques (for example, calling her negative self sociopath during counter attack) did not seem to land or resonate with her and that wasn't addressed with David's usual love and tenderness and warmth with empathy. It seemed rushed and not necessarily focused on the patient outcome but the timeline.

I did not find it to be David's usual work of patience and warmth. I could be completely off the rails but I am wondering if this is resonating with David and if he could share more about what it's been like for him recently.

I also am wondering if it is difficult to navigate being seen as "a great leader" in a field. Do people see you as "David" simply a dedicated expert in your field or do people treat you like a "God" that has all the answers? I can imagine people would want help from you 24/7 and if you could speak to that.

I am hoping David can look at some of those thoughts and comments he's made on the podcasts and become the client for us listeners! I would love for David to show us how to experience TEAM from the client's perspective for all to hear.

I have used TEAM-CBT for 10 years and recently started the Fast Track Program which I am very excited for! Thank you again for this truly amazing process!

Jenn

David's reply

Thanks, Jenn,

You are right, I DO feel quite a bit of irritation with our field and can identify a bit with Martin Luther, who nailed his treatise / ideas on someone's door hundreds of years ago, and also Jesus who angrily threw the money changers out of the temple a couple thousand years ago. I know that sounds narcissistic, but that's how I feel sometimes.

My frustration has several dimensions:

1. The field, to my way of thinking, is incredibly screwed up and anti-scientific, divided into irrational cults called "schools" of therapy.
2. Nobody seems to notice this "elephant" in our room! Hey, are you all sleeping? Did you learn critical thinking in college?
3. When challenged by research that seriously questions the validity and effectiveness of current psychotherapies for depression and anxiety, for example, no one seems to care or notice. It seems like wrong theories die hard.
4. People do not like being criticized and got angry when I criticize the field of psychotherapy. So, there is a kind of a "let's be politically correct" and be super "nice" to everyone, so as not to stir them up or hurt their feelings.
5. There is a potential for massive change and improvements in psychotherapy and psychiatric treatment, but it would require a revolution and the acceptance of totally new approaches which would threaten many therapists' thinking and survival at a very basic level.

Are you or others interested in my thinking? Let me know. If so, more later, maybe on a podcast or two with Jill and Matt, and of course, Rhonda.

And here are the answers to some of your other questions. You say, "He has mentioned that he feels disappointed if he doesn't see change in 2 hour sessions."

We're not on the same page here. I nearly always see dramatic change in 2 hour sessions, and I'm dramatic that I have created a therapeutic approach that makes this possible. When I was a young man, a psychiatric resident, I use to dream about that, and wondered if it was even possible, since I almost never saw meaningful change, much less recovery and joy, in any of my patients using the methods I was talk (supportive listening and antidepressants.)

You also wrote:

I also am wondering if it is difficult to navigate being seen as "a great leader" in a field. Do people see you as "David" simply a dedicated expert in your field or do people treat you like a "God" that has all the answers?

Cool question. I think many people see me as a dedicated expert, but I think a few, particular from some of the Asian countries, to like to see people as "gurus" or something on that level. Sometimes I may even encourage that, as I am a strong believer that therapy, at its deepest level, does become spiritual.

So, questions about spirituality and enlightenment do interest me greatly, and many of the techniques I've created are designed to facilitate rapid improvement, in minutes, vs. years of meditation. The Externalization of Voices would be an example, and it was actually the first CBT technique I created, around or even prior to 1975.

You say,

Recently I watched a live session with Madelaine and some of the techniques (for example, calling her negative self sociopath during counter attack) did not seem to land or resonate with her and that wasn't addressed with David's usual love and tenderness and warmth with empathy. It seemed rushed and not necessarily focused on the patient outcome but the timeline.

You are partially correct and perhaps somewhat "off." Where you are right is that I miscalculated the time for the webinar, and thought we had to stop at 12:30 . I later figured out we had until 1 PM, and we could have spent more time on EOV.

Where you're perhaps wrong is that sometimes a confrontation can "jar" a patient into enlightenment. Few therapists use confrontation, but I have always used it, ever since my days in psychodrama as a medical student. Madeleine commented in her follow up evaluation on the things most helpful to her during the session, and that was one of them.

Research has consistently proven that the observers of therapy cannot accurately assess the quality of the therapeutic alliance, as reported by the patient, or the effectiveness of what's happening during a session. I sometimes wish therapist observers had a bit more humility about the accuracy of their observations, based on research that's been replicated over and over!

But there I am, whining again so I will stop!

At any rate, Jenn, thanks for the wonderfully informative critical thinking, and great questions!

Warmly, david

Jenn's response to David

Hi Dr. Burns,

Thank you so much for your fast response. I am really honored that you took the time to reply to me!

Thank you for your honesty too and I can imagine it's super frustrating! I do not think that sounds narcissistic, I think you are right. I find it extremely frustrating too and I am just a user and learner of TEAM. I think I "see it" sometimes since I've done some personal work. I'm still human with many flaws as I am sure you caught on to a few in my email.

I completely agree with all of your points. I genuinely do not understand how TEAM-CBT is not the go-to. It is finally a scientific method that is proven to be effective. It truly leaves me speechless and I could ramble about TEAM for hours to be honest!

I am a registered nurse and I have a difficult time seeing my patients being "thrown" anti-depressants etc. The biological theory was the go-to in mental health and about 10 years ago as I was finishing my nursing degree I read When Panic Attacks. It was mind blowing to me. At the time I was working on a Stroke Rehab unit and the psychologist would recommend our depressed and anxious patients be put on medication. When I asked if she had heard about your work she scoffed at it and it made me so mad! I wanted to scream at her to read your work but she was resistant to even listening and perhaps that will not surprise you based on your points (and also how I incorrectly tried to sell it to her!). I would see so many of my patients put on antidepressants and left alone afterwards as if that would solve everything. Even recently during my labour and delivery training we had a psychologist speak to us about post partum mood "disorders" and she specifically mentioned her patients "yes-butting" her and made a joke about how resistant th