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The Convergence - An Army Mad Scientist Podcast94. A surprise Interview With a Mystery Guest
The Convergence - An Army Mad Scientist Podcast94. A surprise Interview With a Mystery Guest
94. A surprise Interview With a Mystery Guest
Update: 2024-03-21
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This is a special off-schedule episode of The Convergence where we talk with a mystery guest, possibly for the last time!
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Transcript
00:00:00
This is a special off-schedule episode of The Convergence.
00:00:06
We'll return to our normal schedule next Thursday with a fantastic interview with Ms.
00:00:10
Selena Hayes, but we wanted to use this time to date to say goodbye to a very special contributor to the podcast.
00:00:16
Our very own Luke Shabrow has left mad scientist and government service, and we wanted to ask him a few questions before he moved on to his new journey in the private sector.
00:00:27
So Luke, finger quotes in the air, welcome to the show and how does it feel to be on the other end of the interview?
00:00:33
Yeah, it's a little while to be on the other side after working on this last three and a half years, but always excited to talk with my best friend and co-host Matt Sandesburg.
00:00:45
So where are you heading now?
00:00:47
What are you leaving us for?
00:00:49
When I initially did the interview with Selena for this episode, I was still in Army Federal Service on the Army Mad Scientist Initiative, but I've since transitioned out into the private sector.
00:01:01
So, I'm with a company now that works on open source software called Defense Unicorns.
00:01:06
Yes, that is a real company.
00:01:09
So headed over there to work as their Army Vertical Growth Lead and try and support DOD mission heroes with open source capabilities now.
00:01:18
Well, that's great to hear.
00:01:19
We wish you the best of luck.
00:01:21
Let me get my list of questions out here and go to the next one.
00:01:25
So let's go back to the beginning.
00:01:26
Tell everybody about how you got involved in not only the Army Mad Scientist Initiative, but how you got the podcast started.
00:01:33
Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:34
So Army Mad Scientist Initiative, as a lot of you probably know from previous episodes, really started out in the mid-2000s when the previous trade-off G2 before Mr.
00:01:46
Ian Sullivan now and Mr.
00:01:48
Tom Greco before that, Maxi McFarlane, the G2, then was really looking at the problem we were having with ID's in Iraq and Afghanistan,
00:01:58
looked at organizations like Jaito and Koek that had to stand up and really was wondering why were we so surprised by this?
00:02:06
There was trends and signals out there.
00:02:09
We saw it all the way back to Vietnam where it would be considered more booby trapping to conflicts in former Yugoslavia and areas like that.
00:02:18
So why was the Army so surprised?
00:02:20
Because we were thinking in a lot of silos in our own kind of self-contained environment and we needed to start engaging outside of that.
00:02:28
So the program had started really engaging with other labs across the government, with other agencies, but the whole thing was rather self-contained and pretty much classified.
00:02:40
Despite the great results it came from it, there really wasn't a lot of permutation across Army senior leadership and getting out there.
00:02:47
And so as the drawdowns occurred and the program shuddered and went away for a period of time, when Tom Greco came in as a G2, and especially around 2015 really saw what was happening with what the Russians were doing in eastern Ukraine and Crimea,
00:03:05
the kind of Chinese revolution in military affairs, and really seeing overall a major changing in the character of warfare, he recognized the need for us to really start expanding out,
00:03:17
thinking about things differently, talking to people, the Army normally didn't talk to, and really challenging a lot of assumptions.
00:03:24
So we wanted to really disrupt the status quo.
00:03:26
So Matt, as you know, previously on the program, the deputy director, with Lee Grubbs being the director, Joel Lawton, a friend of ours,
00:03:37
was a deputy director, and unfortunately Joel passed away in 2016.
00:03:44
But I had been, you know, somewhat involved in Army Mad Scientist in previous conferences and really wanted to carry forward that legacy of our very good friend,
00:03:55
and was really excited to get involved, and so ended up being able to have the opportunity to come on as deputy director from Matt's eye, and that was in January 2017,
00:04:06
so it really got to work on this program for the last seven years, which has been just really an honor.
00:04:14
And as far as how the podcast got started, we had worked previously a lot with John Amble, the managing editor over at Modern War Institute, over at West Point,
00:04:25
and John had always recorded special episodes of the MWI podcast when he came to our conferences, but we recognized a need to have that medium,
00:04:35
that stage for people to come and talk about these differing topics.
00:04:42
And as you've experienced with me, and as our listeners can really tell from what we've had in the history of episodes, we brought folks from across not only the government and senior military leadership,
00:04:55
but across industry and tech over to academia and talked about some really interesting topics, and it was just an amazing experience.
00:05:05
You and I got started on this thing, really just recording with a couple of mics in a room that we were able to get in DC and just started with batches of six episodes.
00:05:18
The next six episodes are recorded right after stop movement occurred during COVID.
00:05:23
We started to transition to this virtual interview a lot of times, but it was just an amazing experience and gave us a great opportunity to start expanding Army Mad Scientist,
00:05:36
beyond just conferences and some virtual events, but really expand across all these different mediums.
00:05:44
Yeah, I remember those days well, it was sort of the Wild Wild West for us back then in podcasting because we had a very little idea of what we were doing or how to do it.
00:05:54
But hey, we worked it out and we have the podcast that we have now to show for it.
00:05:59
So it's good memories to bring back.
00:06:01
I really enjoyed those times.
00:06:03
So got a two-parter here for you now.
00:06:06
What have you learned from co-hosting the podcast over the last roughly three and a half years since its inception and the more important one, how do you wish you could be more like your co-host?
00:06:16
I think I'll answer the second one first.
00:06:20
I wish I was as detail-oriented and as overall intelligent and good as you are, Matt.
00:06:29
But we can't all be perfect, we have to strive for what we can.
00:06:34
In terms of learning from co-hosting the podcast over these years, it's been really important to realize how much everyone else has to say and what they can tell us and how important it is to give them a space in order to do that and how important it is for the Army and really the wider DOD and kind of national security ecosystem to hear those voices because they a lot of times get drowned out by high-level talking points or the initiative or rather the momentum of how DOD looks at the future.
00:07:15
And so we wanted to change that and I think we've been able to do that a lot, but what really stuck out to me was having the opportunity there for folks to be able to do that,
00:07:26
to give them that voice.
00:07:29
And I think that we reached audiences not only in the DOD but outside that heard voices they normally wouldn't, that they really got to experience and learn from something else.
00:07:42
And I think both of us have wondered in the past, DOD is not always great on the service member or civil service side about kind of providing,
00:07:54
like, yeah, we listen to this all the time.
00:07:57
We've incorporated in, you know, whatever training or initiatives.
00:08:02
And so sometimes it felt like, man, are we just shouting into a void?
00:08:06
And then there was those times where people would come up to us and say, oh yeah, I listened to every podcast episode, you and Matt do or you and Luke do, and, you know, I really loved this episode.
00:08:18
This most recent one, I'd put it out to all our soldiers to talk about this or we put it as, you know, require listening for this course.
00:08:29
Because to me, that was what it was all about.
00:08:32
Was that impact?
00:08:33
So I think it was so important to give that voice to people.
00:08:38
And I think it opened up a lot of opportunities across Army.
00:08:41
I mean, some of the people that we featured early on, El Sicania, a Zach Coulomborn, these folks who were really, and when we talked to them,
00:08:52
we're kind of starting out.
00:08:54
And over the last couple years have really exploded in terms of voices in mainstream media across the defense ecosystem, testifying before Congress.
00:09:05
So I think that that is the most important part, is that that opportunity and listening.
00:09:11
You know that I'm fairly long-winded and I have to sometimes try and curtail some of that.
00:09:17
But just active listening to some of these folks has been so insightful over the last several years.
00:09:24
And we're all facing a lot of the same problems and challenges.
00:09:28
We just see it through different lenses.
00:09:30
And so to get to see that kind of translation or now it's learning across different sectors was really, really important.
00:09:39
So learned more than I can even count from doing this.
00:09:43
That was a great response, you know, a great summation of what the podcast has been able to do.
00:09:49
And you should be very proud of yourself because you accomplished that.
00:09:53
I mean, this was, we did this together.
00:09:56
We are co-hosts, co-producers.
00:09:59
But the idea for this podcast was really yours.
00:10:01
It was just there to help you get it done and see it to fruition.
00:10:05
So everything you went over there, you should be very proud of your accomplishments within the army.
00:10:09
You mentioned a lot of the episodes that we had on here and how important they were.
00:10:13
But what were a couple of your favorite episodes that we recorded?
00:10:17
There were so many, it's like hard to even say because I loved every one of the episodes that we did.
00:10:23
And I think there was unique qualities in every single one of them.
00:10:27
But I do have to probably pick a couple.
00:10:30
I should probably say the episode with Rob Slotter when he was at DOD platform one because he's my boss now as the CEO of Defense Unicorns.
00:10:40
That was a great episode with platform one in their first P1 summit in our first live podcast where we did not focus on editing, but it was live streamed.
00:10:51
But I will say the three that kind of stick out to me really.
00:10:56
The first being the episodes that we recorded with Pips, the William & Mary program,
00:11:06
program for international peace and security.
00:11:10
And we've actually had a number of our interns who came from that program and some who became permanent government employees, but all of them have gone on to do really amazing things.
00:11:22
But it was really getting those young minds in there.
00:11:24
And they were so excited and passionate, but also phenomenal researchers.
00:11:30
And we got to do a wide variety of topics.
00:11:32
We actually recorded those over at William & Mary's campus.
00:11:36
And that was just a really good experience because it wasn't bringing in not to disparage anyone, but the same old, same old.
00:11:44
It was that next generation really talking about some issues that were vitally important to national security and they had some great perspective.
00:11:53
So I really enjoyed that series, which is kind of a little cheating because we had I think anywhere from six to eight different students on that, but some really great ones with that.
00:12:04
The next one I would say is probably any episode that we had, Dr.
00:12:08
James Giordano on.
00:12:10
Dr.
00:12:10
Giordano is one of the most brilliant people I've ever met.
00:12:15
And he has an amazing way of being able to talk about nitty-gritty technical details without getting boring or tedious with it, but also explaining it in overall and overarching concepts in ways that people can understand across DOD,
00:12:32
but even out to the general public.
00:12:35
And so I love, love anytime we had Dr.
00:12:38
Giordano.
00:12:39
And then the final one I would probably say is when we got to interview Ronald D.
00:12:45
Moore, the showrunner for Battle Saga Latica, and then more recently for all mankind.
00:12:52
He was just had such an amazing perspective.
00:12:56
He was able to bring all that experience.
00:12:59
But he just also showed kind of a lot of deference to service members and what the military was trying to do and explained how it made him think about what he did in this very creative realm.
00:13:13
So those were some of my favorites, but I'll cheat also and just say they're all my favorite because there was just too many amazing episodes to name.
00:13:22
Yes, absolutely agree.
00:13:23
Ronald D.
00:13:23
Moore was also one of my favorites.
00:13:25
I've not just to meet one of the science fiction heroes that I look up to, but because of what you said, he had such a great outlook and he was able to connect it to what we do here.
00:13:34
So that was fantastic.
00:13:35
So who's your white well?
00:13:36
Who's a guest that you wish we could have had on, but we just weren't able to?
00:13:40
Yeah, this one I'm going to cheat again and say I have several.
00:13:45
We got very close with Mark Cuban.
00:13:49
Didn't weren't able to make it happen, but really would have loved to have Mark Cuban on.
00:13:54
He's had a lot of interesting insights on how to beat China economically and in a way without getting into trade wars and things like that.
00:14:06
He had some really great insights and a guy that really has done some amazing things and actually has worked with DoD before.
00:14:13
So really wanted him on Ray Kurzweil, author of The Singularity is Near.
00:14:19
We were not able to make that happen and probably General Mattis.
00:14:25
I really wanted to get General Mattis on because I think that he was someone that really embraced change and adaptive approaches in his time in the Marine Corps and as Secretary Defense.
00:14:40
So those were the three that I was really dying to get on, but hey, there's still time for the podcast as I leave this in just absolutely amazing hands.
00:14:51
Yeah, so those are the three now that I'm going to work until my dying days to get on this podcast.
00:14:57
In order we'll do Mark Cuban, then Ray Kurzweil, then General Mattis.
00:15:01
Probably should flip it though because it's probably we're probably most easily connected to General Mattis, but I like a challenge.
00:15:07
All right, so you should be prepared for this last question.
00:15:11
It's actually a series of questions.
00:15:13
They're always the same.
00:15:14
And it gives us a little insight into who we're talking to.
00:15:17
So rapid fire, Luke Shabro, what's a technology or a trend that keeps you up at night?
00:15:22
Yeah, so the technology or trend that keeps me up at night is a lot of the neuroscience and potential neuro implants.
00:15:31
That stuff, bring computer interface quite honestly scares me to death.
00:15:36
I think there's a lot of amazing potential dealing with neurological issues, Parkinson's, there's some amazing opportunity there,
00:15:47
but given my career as a intel analyst, I think a lot about the threat side of it, the nefarious side of things, unfortunately, and the ability to directly interface with our brains and potentially manipulate us physically,
00:16:03
neurologically, psychologically in these ways scares me.
00:16:09
It is one of the biggest dual use technology areas where I think we have, again, amazing opportunity to make positive change,
00:16:19
but we could also face a lot of disastrous consequences based on that.
00:16:25
And another technology that potentially erodes our trust in our institutions, in each other, and wondering what's really pulling the strings, so to speak,
00:16:36
if you have people with direct neurological implants, so that stuff scares me.
00:16:41
Yes, very scary, and not only nefarious uses, but we could have an entire conference on the ethical arguments for doing this in the first place.
00:16:52
It's a very new and gray area that I don't think we have all the answers for yet.
00:16:57
Second question, I'm going to modify it a little bit.
00:17:01
What's something about you that most people might not know, and maybe something about you that your co-host doesn't know?
00:17:06
So I put probably too much of myself out there, so most people know most things about me, I think.
00:17:13
But what might not be known, I guess, is I am a golden shell back, which in the Navy, when you cross the equator, for your first time, you're a slimy polywag,
00:17:25
and then you go through the process of crossing the line, as they say.
00:17:30
And you go through some pretty interesting rituals, which used to be kind of hazing to an extent.
00:17:40
The Navy's cut a lot of it out these days, but they still do the crossing the equator.
00:17:45
And I became a shell back my first time in 2004, and then in 2007, when we crossed the equator in the international date line at the same time,
00:17:57
became a golden shell back.
00:17:58
So for my fellow squids out there, there's probably some shell backs.
00:18:04
Wish I had gotten the blue nose as well, which is going in the Arctic Circle, but haven't done that one yet, so I am a golden shell back.
00:18:13
As far as what you might not know, considering our friendship, I think you know pretty much everything about me, but you might not know, and I know you're a huge baseball fan.
00:18:24
I did play T-Ball as a kid, and then Coach Pitch Baseball, and I hated every minute of it.
00:18:31
But did that, and so we have that shared baseball history, obviously.
00:18:37
That's interesting to find out.
00:18:39
Coach Pitch, you got pretty far.
00:18:41
You're on a beeline to the majors at that point, but that's okay, it's not for everybody.
00:18:47
It's not for everybody.
00:18:48
And I think you found your niche.
00:18:49
All right, so this is going to be really difficult.
00:18:52
I've never been on this side of the rapid fire questions before, and you've never had this question posed to you on air before.
00:18:59
You know what's coming, hopefully you've thought about it.
00:19:03
What's your favorite movie?
00:19:04
Like I always tell the guests, this is probably the hardest question.
00:19:09
There's a lot I think about.
00:19:11
We've talked about on here.
00:19:12
You know, I love Forrest Gump, love the Big Lebowski, the departed, pretty much any Chris for no one vehicle is really amazing.
00:19:24
But I have to say, all the time I go back to, it's a wonderful life is probably my favorite movie of all time, and not just Chris's movie, but just overall favorite movie,
00:19:34
and I think it speaks to the importance of friendship and how we treat each other in our communities.
00:19:43
And just that idea of hope that we all make a difference in the world.
00:19:50
And we don't want to lose the opportunity to make that difference, and it's a movie that just always, when I'm peeling down or it's just losing hope in the world,
00:20:01
it's a great movie to watch, to come back to and think we all have such an impact on each other's lives.
00:20:08
So that's my favorite.
00:20:09
That's a perfect answer, because, you know, I had in my head, Big Lebowski, I've heard you mentioned the departed all the time, and I knew it's a wonderful life was up there for you.
00:20:19
But you're just a huge Christmas guy.
00:20:21
So that makes perfect sense, your love of Christmas and your love of movies, they go right together hand in hand, great job.
00:20:28
So I'll give you a chance, any last remarks, any last words, any last advice for Rachel, who's going to take over for you here as co-host, anything you'd like to say to the audience before your last time on the convergence,
00:20:39
possibly last time on the convergence.
00:20:41
Yeah, I just, for Rachel, Rachel's, I have nothing to offer because Rachel's fantastic and with you there, I know you two are going to just do an amazing job carrying this forward and actually take it to new levels,
00:20:55
a new stratosphere.
00:20:57
So I'm really excited to hear it and be a listener on the other side, and just really want to say thank you to you for all your years of being my friend,
00:21:08
but also my co-host, my partner in crime and collaborator.
00:21:14
Thank you, you know, to Lee Grubbs, our director, who has always given us the opportunity to try new things and expand out until it gets inlanded in jail.
00:21:25
So we have had a great opportunity to do that.
00:21:29
The most recent trade-off G2 in Sullivan was a fantastic mentor and we've had him on the podcast several times, so just really grateful to everybody and to the audience,
00:21:41
just so absolutely grateful for all of you that take the time to listen, to tell us about what you think about it, to all the guests that have taken time to come on and speak with us,
00:21:53
and in some ways be vulnerable and come on and share a part of themselves on the podcast and talk about what they're passionate about.
00:22:02
And so it's just been an incredible journey, and I'm just grateful to everybody.
00:22:07
I'm going to miss it.
00:22:09
Who knows, maybe I will be back on one day as a guest.
00:22:13
And to those out there, I always try to close out briefings or talks I've given with three things to continue, be bold, be disruptive,
00:22:24
be relentless, and thank you all.
00:22:27
[Music]
00:22:34
[BLANK_AUDIO]
00:22:44
