With Civil’s token launch looming, Manoush and Jen go for one last gut check with the guys who helped inspire their meta journey: Alex Blumberg and Matt Lieber, co-founders of Gimlet Media. Season One of their hugely successful podcast StartUp documented Alex and Matt’s own entrepreneurial highs and lows. But the two women want to know: how did living out loud affect their psyches and families? And does gender change the story?

Who you’ll hear: Manoush (@manoushZ) Jen (@jpoyant) The Cofounders of Gimlet Media (@gimletmedia) Matt Lieber (@mlieber) Alex Blumberg (@abexlumberg)

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Produced by Stable Genius Productions

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ZigZag is the business show about being human.

Join a community of listeners riding the twists and turns of late-capitalism, searching for a kinder, more sustainable way. Manoush Zomorodi and Jen Poyant investigate how work and business impact our wellbeing and the planet we live on. On Seasons 4 and 5, hear from rebels and visionaries with radical ideas on how we can build stable lives, careers, and companies.

If you’re also interested in Jen and Manoush’s personal story and their adventures in starting their own business with a little help from blockchain technology, listen to the first three seasons, starting with Season 1, Chapter 1.