Dr. Chris Caughey joins Lutheran Answers to uncover the rich tapestry of Christ in the Old Testament, exploring types, shadows, and promises fulfilled in Jesus. From Moses’ intercession to Jonah’s struggles, this episode reveals the deep Christological threads woven through Scripture.

In this episode of Lutheran Answers, Dr. Chris Caughey, Lutheran pastor and scholar, discusses the presence of Christ in the Old Testament. The conversation explores how key figures like Moses, Abraham, David, and Joseph serve as types and shadows pointing to Christ’s ultimate fulfillment of God’s promises. Dr. Caughey explains the purpose of the Mosaic Law, Israel's need for a perfect representative, and the significance of Old Testament events and symbols, such as the Passover and manna, as precursors to the Eucharist.

The discussion also delves into more nuanced topics, like biblical theology, the organic growth of God’s revelation in Scripture, and how figures like Jonah and Esther embody themes that ultimately point to Christ. Through lively dialogue, the episode illuminates the profound interconnectedness of Scripture and its focus on the person and work of Jesus Christ.

More From Dr. Caughey

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• The Tale of Two Adams

Parting Thought

As the Old Testament clearly reveals, God’s plan for salvation has always centered on Christ. Each figure and event in Scripture points us toward the one who fulfills the law, bears our sin, and leads us to the ultimate promised land. In Christ, we find the better Adam, Moses, and David—the perfect Savior who brings life and redemption to all.

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Transcript

[00:00:00 ] Remy: I have written my thesis, obviously, my outline. I've got at least a draft done, and I'm working on, you know, building that out.

None of that.

I've got an outline. I've definitely done the research, and I've got mental notes.

[00:00:31 ] Dr. Caughey: So that's as much of the paper as is done, huh?

[00:00:35 ] Remy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't tell my professor.

[00:00:39 ] Dr. Caughey: Okay. It'll be our little secret.

[00:00:42 ] Remy: Excellent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I. I do have time slated to work on it, though, so.

Oh, hiding your background.

[00:00:55 ] Dr. Caughey: Well, I'm just wondering if I should.

[00:01:00 ] Remy: I'm leaving all this in.

They've already seen the background.

[00:01:05 ] Dr. Caughey: Very nice. Okay.

[00:01:15 ] Remy: Oh, oh, from beyond the void or.

Oh, interesting, interesting, fascinating. Dr. Cahi, thank you for volunteering to be on my show.

[00:01:38 ] Dr. Caughey: Well, thank you, Remy. It's good to be here.

[00:01:40 ] Remy: Yes, sir.

How long have we known each other now?

[00:01:46 ] Dr. Caughey: Oh, my goodness.

At least two years, doesn't it?

[00:01:51 ] Remy: Two years? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it was the 2023 Pastors Conference. I think we have, like, really met for the first time.

[00:02:01 ] Dr. Caughey: Right.

But we may have bumped him into each other in a. In a, you know, class or something before that.

[00:02:09 ] Remy: Yeah. And I think Twitter as well.

[00:02:12 ] Dr. Caughey: Yes.

[00:02:13 ] Remy: There's a lot of people that I like. I like, joke around with on Twitter. I'm mutuals with on Twitter. And then like, I show up to conferences or conventions or whatever for the aalc, or I show up to a class and it's like, oh, you're my Twitter mutual. That's weird that you're a real person.

[00:02:31 ] Dr. Caughey: That happened at this last pastor's conference. I can't remember his name, but you.

You had a Twitter mutual that joined us for.

[00:02:40 ] Remy: Oh, yeah.

Ian. Yeah. Always showed up after hours. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it also happened with Will Green in this class, this church history class, because Will and I have been following each other on Twitter for a while and we even talked on the phone. I don't really remember this, but he was thinking about whether or not he should apply to alts, and he asked if he could call me and talk to me. And we swapped numbers and we talked.

And then I don't know, I guess he joined alts. He enrolled. So I get like a commission check now. I don't know how that works. I'll figure that out. But yeah. And then we were Twitter mutuals for a while, and then he was in class and I was like, oh, you're the Twitter guy. You know, Great, Wonderful.

And then I ended up spending a lot of time with Will at This pastor's conference. And God, I love that man to death. What a great guy. I need to get him on, too.

[00:03:35 ] Dr. Caughey: Oh, you could have conversations with him.

[00:03:38 ] Remy: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

So, Dr. Cahi, tell me a little bit about yourself.

[00:03:45 ] Dr. Caughey: Well, I am a pastor of two churches in rural Kentucky. There's an LCMS congregation in Maysville, Kentucky, and then at AALC congregation in Augusta, Kentucky. And I've been serving them for two years now. I arrived November 2022.

And I also teach church history and Old Testament for alts.

And yeah, I think that covers most of the basics.

[00:04:24 ] Remy: Okay, very good that the alts getting a lot of love from me this season. It's really, it's not intentional, but like, everybody.

I've talked about it with like, just about everybody now, so I, I'm planning a time to have Dr. Lyons to come on to like, literally just talk about alts, which I. Great.

So you are Dr. Chris Caughey.

The Reverend Doctor Most Honorable Chris Caughey.

What are you a doctor of?

[00:05:02 ] Dr. Caughey: My Ph.D. i guess would technically be in historical theology. I studied a handful of Puritans from across the Atlantic.

So that's my terminal.

[00:05:19 ] Remy: Okay. Okay.

And you're.

You started out Reformed, huh?

[00:05:27 ] Dr. Caughey: Yes, I did. Well, I mean, I started out life as a broad evangelical, but I discovered Reformed theology when I was in high school and ended up going to Westminster Seminary, California.

And I was deeply convinced of Reformed theology for probably a good 25 to 30 years.

And then it was actually, it was actually my PhD that pushed me out. I realized I just. If that was Reformed, I couldn't do that anymore.

[00:06:00 ] Remy: So not what we're going to be talking about tonight. And I know a whole bunch of people probably were just like, dang it, because that would make. That would make a heck of an episode. But I would like to touch on it just a little bit, if you don't mind. And just what were, what were some of the things you were studying? You said like the Puritans and whatnot. What were some of the things you were studying that pushed you out of Reformed theology? And then how did you land in Lutheranism?

[00:06:33 ] Dr. Caughey: Well, okay, I knew about Lutheranism because way back when I was an Undergrad, in the mid-90s, I was listening to the White Horse in radio show on terrestrial radio.

So I knew about Rod Rosenblatt, and if it hadn't been for him, I might not know what Lutheranism was. But then also because of some really bad stuff that I went through in Reformed churches, I was listening on repeat to Rod Rosenblatt's talk, the Gospel for those broken by the church. And I was super impressed with the fact that he could look me in the eye and tell me that Christ died for me and not flinch. He wasn't crossing his fingers behind his back.

He was sincerely convinced of that, and that was deeply attractive to me.

I wanted that, but I wasn't there yet.

So Westminster Seminary California had set me up to believe that Reformed equals Puritan, Puritan equals Reformed. And so I thought that when I dove into studying these Puritans, I was going to find exactly what I had gotten in seminary. And it just turned out not to be the case at all. I mean, there was just morbid introspection, a grinding legalism.

I remember the very first day that I started reading for my PhD. I read about how there were even suicides in England among Puritans because they just couldn't deal with the demands of that religious system. So that's when I realized, okay, if this is Reformed, I can't be Reformed. And so I started consuming as many Lutheran podcasts as I could while I was over there. And it really was when I got back to the United States that I discovered Dr. Jordan Cooper and Brian Wolf Mueller, and they were extremely helpful.

[00:08:46 ] Remy: Yeah, yeah. Both of them.

Yeah. Very good, Very good. And now you're on the greatest Lutheran podcast that has ever been. So that's. That's. That's really. That's neat. Full circle.

[00:09:02 ] Dr. Caughey: I'm finally going to get some Lutheran answers tonight.

[00:09:05 ] Remy: That's right. Yeah. Ask. Ask away. Any questions you have.

I don't know if people know this, but I'm like the Pope for us, and anything I say is authoritative and binding.

[00:09:17 ] Dr. Caughey: Okay.

[00:09:18 ] Remy: Yeah. So, you know, feel free.

[00:09:22 ] Dr. Caughey: So I might take you up on that.

[00:09:24 ] Remy: Y