Josh Bowman talks with Albert Norton, a practicing attorney and author of several books on the tension between religion and postmodernism. His most recent book is The Discovered Self, just released, concerning what he regards as a dangerous inward turn to the therapeutic worldview. 

Our main topic is his 2023 book The Mountain and the River: Genesis, Postmodernism, and the Machine. Our conversation addresses themes of postmodernism, universals and particulars, ideology, totalitarianism, fascism, epistemology, Christian intellectuals in the church, and much more.

Bert’s substack, “Sir Toast” - https://albertnorton.substack.com/

The Mountain and the River - https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-River-Genesis-Postmodernism-Machine/dp/1943003815?ref_=ast_author_dp

The Discovered Self - https://www.amazon.com/Discovered-Self-Identity-Therapeutic-Age-ebook/dp/B0F1V4LL7B?ref_=ast_author_dp

Check out Bert’s reflections on the recent Ciceronian Society conference here: https://albertnorton.substack.com/p/the-ciceronian-society

Mentioned in this episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Glass_Bees 

The 2026 Ciceronian Society Conference will be held March 12-14 at Creighton University in Omaha, NE. Panel and paper proposals are due September 1, 2025. To learn more about us, our events, this Podcast, our journal, Pietas, to sign up for our newsletter, and make your tax deductible gift, please go to https://ciceroniansociety.org/ 

0:00 Introduction
4:00 Postmodernism
9:30 Moralistic Therapeutic Deism
14:02 The Mountain and the River
19:52 Differentiation
24:08 Balance 
33:04 The Machine
40:11 Fascism
44:03 Church & Zeitgeist
49:05 Tragic Sense
54:27 Discovered Self
58:13 Emotions
1:02:19 Need for Community

Chapters

• (00:00:00 ) - Introduction
• (00:04:00 ) - Postmodernism
• (00:09:30 ) - Moralistic Therapeutic Deism
• (00:14:02 ) - The Mountain and the River
• (00:19:52 ) - Differentiation
• (00:24:08 ) - Balance
• (00:33:04 ) - The Machine
• (00:40:11 ) - Fascism
• (00:44:03 ) - Church & Zeitgeist
• (00:49:05 ) - Tragic Sense
• (00:54:27 ) - Discovered Self
• (00:58:13 ) - Emotions
• (01:02:19 ) - Need for Community