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You probably don't know who these men are. Yet chances are you've heard dozens of the mainstream American music hits they've written over the past decade. Mikkel Eriksen, left, and Tor Hermansen. (Getty Images)

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What makes a good pop song, and has the value of a good pop song changed? In many ways, yes. Has the "soul" of a song been altered in a new landscape for music-making and music listening? Absolutely. Tom Junod is an award-winning writer-at-large for Esquire, and he's the guest on this episode. Junod has laments, theories, questions and frustrations over the current state of what makes it to modern radio and how the process has reach a saturation point. Popular music has never been more widely retrievable and yet at the same time never been this seemingly disposable. How did we get here, and what's coming in the next decade?

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This is the article from The Atlantic that is referenced on this episode, and this is the book that in part sparked this podcast episode to life.

On the podcast, I mention a great interview given by Noel Gallagher about writing songs, ("write a fucking chorus") and how good the whole thing is. You can watch that right here.

As for Junod's work, three recommendations to start with.

• The Falling Man
• Michael Stipe Has Great Hair
• My Father's Fashion Tips