The center-left Social Democrats are the junior coalition partner in Friedrich Merz’s government, but they hold two of the most important portfolios for implementing Germany’s security policy revolution known as the “Zeitenwende”—finance and defense. On this episode of The Zeitgeist, Member of the Bundestag and former Minister of Labor and Social Affairs Hubertus Heil discusses the SPD’s stance on Russia and Ukraine and Germany’s efforts to strengthen the Bundeswehr, including the thorny issue of growing the armed forces and the potential role of conscription.



Host

Jeff Rathke, President, AGI

Guest

Hubertus Heil, Member of the Bundestag (SPD)



Transcript

Jeff Rathke

I’m delighted to have listeners with us again today for another episode of The Zeitgeist. Our guest today is Hubertus Heil. Thanks for being with us.

Hubertus Heil

Nice to meet you. Thank you.

Jeff Rathke

Hubertus Heil is here in Washington. He is a member of the Bundestag and a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. It’s in that capacity that he’s visiting Washington, but he is no stranger to the United States. Hubertus Heil, I think you said you first visited at age 16, which was a couple of decades ago.

Hubertus Heil

In the 80s, late 80s.

Jeff Rathke

He has been a member of the Social Democratic Party for a long time. He has been a member of the Bundestag since 1998, so, twenty-seven years. He has held senior positions in the Social Democratic Party, including as Secretary General and deputy leader. He was for seven years the Minister of Labor and Social Affairs in the German government under Chancellor Merkel and also under Chancellor Scholz, whose term ended earlier this year. He brings a really deep experience working with his counterparts in the United States but also in party politics. That gives us a great opportunity to talk today.

I wanted to start by talking about Russia and Ukraine, because this is an issue where, on the one hand, the divergence between the United States and its European allies has been obvious since Donald Trump took office. The United States hasn’t quite broken with its European allies, but it is not requesting new funds to provide military support to Ukraine. It has been pushing the Europeans to take over responsibility for military supplies and other support to Ukraine. Donald Trump has been flirting with some kind of a reset or reconciliation and realignment of U.S. policy toward Russia. This puts Germany in a difficult position, but also in the Social Democratic Party  this has been hotly debated. I wonder if you could give us your perspective on how you look at Russia, the relations with Russia, and how that looks inside the SPD?

Hubertus Heil

Thank you for that question, because I think the SPD is quite clear on this after the Russian aggression against Ukraine. Still, our position is that Putin destroyed the European peace order. It’s not just a question of sovereignty to support Ukraine as long as it’s needed. It’s also a question of security for my country and for us as Europeans. We are still talking about that Putin was not only violent against the European peace order but to international law. Everybody wants peace in my party, in my country, all over the world. But it has to be a peace with security, that is not a dictatorship peace at the end of the day. That is why we have to, as Europeans and as Germans, support the Ukrainian government to make sovereign decisions. I remember this meeting—before the Anchorage appointment of Mr. Putin and President Trump—of the European leaders. It was very important, and we supported as Social Democrats Chancellor Merz in his position of keeping contact with the United States and keeping them involved for the...