We're going down the rabbit hole of breads with holes! From the New York vs Montreal bagel debate—and the power of water and lye—to the twists and turns of pretzel history, focusing on the presence of negative space is a positive thing.

We'll explore the power of lye with Harold McGee, check out NYC bagel culture with Dianna Daoheung of Black Seed Bagels, learn about the Simit with Zoe Kanan, and head to Pennsylvania's classic Julius Sturgis Pretzel Bakery. Along the way, Nathan Myhrvold and Francisco Migoya, co-authors of Modernist Bread, will address "the water myth," and their findings may surprise NYC bagel purists.

Photo credit: The Cooking Lab, LLC.

Theme Music: Thomas Huges & Gretchen Lohse (@carolclevelandsings).

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