Peter talks to Jocelyn Bailey, an expert in using participative processes in the design of complex social systems. Jocelyn has worked with members of the UK Parliament to raise awareness of design approaches to solving complex problems, she has worked with USCreates, and recently completed a PhD thesis on emerging practices of design in the UK government. In the interview they talk about the different ways of including people in the design process and what can sometimes go wrong. They also discuss problems with finding the right people to codesign with, and appropriately representing specific population groups. Following the interview Peter and Mieke discuss the difference between participation and codesign, why sometimes not including designers in a codesign process can work better, and why designing your own method is best.