Falling for Fascism (re-release)
Update: 2024-11-04
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This episode was originally released right before the 2020 presidential election and is even more relevant as we face the 2024 election. Political philosopher Jason Stanley, author of the book How Fascism Works, helps us understand how countries slide into authoritarian systems through conspiracy theories, demonization of others, the systematic erosion of truth, and the manipulation of anxieties around race and gender.
Check out How Fascism Works by Jason Stanley as well as his new book Erasing History: How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future
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00:00:00
"Hello dear listeners, I wanted to re-release this episode because we originally put it out right before the 2020 election,
00:00:12
and it feels even more relevant on the eve of the 2024 election than it did four years ago."
00:00:19
Like in the previous two presidential races, words like fascist and fascism are being thrown around a lot and not without good reason.
00:00:29
This interview with political philosopher Jason Stanley, author of the book How Fascism Works and Professor of Philosophy at Yale University, can help us understand how countries slide into authoritarian systems through propaganda and conspiracy theories made to manipulate ideas of gender,
00:00:49
race, and national values and to demonize others, whether they be leftist radicals, academics, immigrants, queer people, Muslim or Jewish people,
00:01:00
whichever villain of the moment will fuel the most outrage, and thus the most action on behalf of those who say they are the only ones who can save the true patriots.
00:01:13
As Jason will explain, fascism is not as much a destination as it is a process, one that plays out in different iterations all over the world, but still expresses the same set of values and tactics.
00:01:28
This has long been one of our most popular episodes, because it acts, I think, as a good primer to understand how we got to where we are today, how truth has been systematically eroded in favor of fantasy,
00:01:42
and how masses of people can be manipulated through false stories and a promise of a better future that will lead to anything but.
00:01:52
I'm your host, Chelsea Weber-Smith, and this is American Historia.
00:01:59
Thank you so much, Jason, for coming on the show, it's truly an honor.
00:02:03
Thanks so much, Chelsea, it's a terrific program and podcast you have, a vital task you're doing.
00:02:09
Well, thank you.
00:02:10
I feel the same way about you, so on that note, as I was reading how fascism works, I was really shocked by how much your content aligned with American Historia and how all these different themes that we'd been tying together,
00:02:26
all these different types of panics against different types of people and different types of situations.
00:02:32
I didn't really know that I was kind of talking about the process of fascism, keyword being process, right?
00:02:40
So something that would really help me is if you explained what your definition of fascism is and how it is sort of this process, not this destination, because we're hearing this word a lot.
00:02:53
Fascism is a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of supposed humiliation by immigrants, minorities,
00:03:03
and leftist radicals.
00:03:05
The fascist leader pronounces himself as the representation of the nation and the only solution to bring back the nation in the face of the supposed humiliation.
00:03:17
That's great, very succinct.
00:03:20
And how is it?
00:03:21
So, what do you see as the process of fascism and what is the end result?
00:03:27
So we can talk about different things being fascist.
00:03:32
And people have been minimizing the situation by just saying we don't have a fascist regime now.
00:03:39
So what's to worry about?
00:03:41
Well, Italy didn't have a fascist regime for several years under when Mussolini was Prime Minister.
00:03:47
Germany didn't have a fascist regime at the beginning.
00:03:50
So regular fascist regimes come about when democratically elected leaders or leaders who've come in through a democratic process undermine democracy from within by stacking the courts,
00:04:03
for example, by taking over various parts of the press.
00:04:07
So we can talk about fascism as many things.
00:04:10
And I think that when we talk about it just as a regime, we're doing ourselves a disservice.
00:04:16
Tony Morrison in 1995 in our Howard University commencement address, racism and fascism, says that the United States has long preferred fascist solutions to national problems.
00:04:29
We now live in a country with the world's highest incarceration rate.
00:04:34
When historians look back in our country and they think about its status, they'll note that it has a incarceration rate that parallels that of the Soviet Union in the early 1950s.
00:04:46
So we have many marks of a fascist society here, even though we do not have a fascist regime.
00:04:53
We have vilification of minorities as at the very center of our politics in both political parties, every election in the United States seems to be about race.
00:05:03
Nikhil Paul Singh, an NYU professor, talks about native fascist forces.
00:05:09
And we have deep native fascist forces.
00:05:12
When I think of fascism, I think of it primarily as a kind of culture, a kind of political culture.
00:05:19
And that's why conspiracy theories are so central to it.
00:05:23
Perhaps it's easiest to begin with its opposite, a democratic culture.
00:05:27
Now, there are different kinds of anti-democratic cultures.
00:05:31
Fascism is just one kind of anti-democratic culture.
00:05:34
But it's the kind that faces us in the United States.
00:05:37
It's the anti-democratic threat that faces us in the United States.
00:05:40
So that's why I focus on that.
00:05:43
A democratic culture is a culture that respects truth.
00:05:47
Democracy centered around truth because democracy has two values, freedom and equality.
00:05:53
And both freedom and equality require truth.
00:05:57
Freedom requires truth because if you're lied to, you're not free.
00:06:00
That's what the matrix is about.
00:06:02
People in the matrix aren't free.
00:06:03
That's why they want to get out of the matrix.
00:06:05
You need truth to be free.
00:06:08
You need truth for equality because political equality is speaking truth to power.
00:06:13
A democratic culture is one where a liar is punished.
00:06:17
A democratic culture is one where when a politician lies, they lose support.
00:06:23
If you want to destroy a democratic culture, you attack the truth.
00:06:28
You represent your opponent as a vicious enemy, not a legitimate political opponent, but as say someone who's hiding a pedophile ring.
00:06:38
And then truth doesn't matter anymore because who cares if the person hiding a pedophile ring is telling the truth?
00:06:44
They're hiding a pedophile ring.
00:06:46
And who cares if you're lying?
00:06:48
You're defending little children.
00:06:50
>> Yeah, that's quite a transportation right into the present moment.
00:06:55
And something that we talked about on our fake news episode.
00:06:57
And I mean, how could we not be talking about satanic pedophile cults pretty much constantly since the 1980s?
00:07:04
But on that note, I wanted to ask you how you think conspiracy theories and disinformation.
00:07:10
I believe you called it sort of the pillar of fascist ideology.
00:07:14
So I was hoping you talk a little bit more about that, whether these conspiracy theories be within America or kind of comparing them, these themes seem to repeat.
00:07:23
So if you want to compare them to other fascist regimes that you've also written and read about.
00:07:29
So the very first article I ever wrote for a newspaper was on Berthorism in the New York Times in 2011, ways of silencing.
00:07:38
That's why I moved from sort of purely academic work to writing for the newspapers a decade ago.
00:07:45
Because when Berthorism came on the scene, I basically said, okay, I have to drop everything because as the child of two Holocaust survivors, I'm well aware that conspiracy theories mark the beginning of an end to democracy.
00:08:01
What conspiracy theories do, or certain kind of conspiracy theory, is they mark out your enemy as fundamentally satanic, as fundamentally opposed to all values,
00:08:14
all virtuous values and civilization itself.
00:08:18
And I think once you start conspiracy theorizing, you can't help but ending up with anti-Semitic conspiracies, because I think anti-Semitism fundamentally is an ideology that represents Jews as at the center of a conspiracy to take the world over.
00:08:36
So now this is not to say that Jews can't Jewish people themselves can't use conspiracy theories.
00:08:42
They can and do.
00:08:43
There are many Jewish supporters of far right nationalist movements.
00:08:49
But it's to say that the structure is an anti-Semitic structure.
00:08:53
So at the very heart of national socialism was the conspiracy theory, the protocols of the elders of Zion, the forgery, which was supposedly written by Jewish people,
00:09:03
by the elders of Zion, Jewish people.
00:09:06
It was this incoherent thing where wealthy Jews were supposedly promoting social justice movements in order to promote women and minorities to do a race war,
00:09:19
to take over from whites, white genocide.
00:09:23
And then the Jews could then take over and impose world communism.
00:09:27
Quite a tale.
00:09:28
Yeah.
00:09:29
It's quite a tale, but it's very familiar.
00:09:30
Henry Ford gave out 500,000 copies of the protocols of the elders of Zion, as you know, in the United States.
00:09:37
So because it's so familiar, it's something that you can constantly redo.
00:09:44
The Ku Klux Klan, the basis of the second clan's ideology is the protocols.
00:09:49
They said Jews are trying to bring around world communism by inciting blocks into a race war against whites.
00:09:57
And then Jews using unions will take over and impose Marxism and communism.
00:10:03
This is exactly the basis of today's Trump campaign.
00:10:07
That's sort of what I loved about your book is how fascism alters an entire reality.
00:10:11
It doesn't just, it doesn't just give you random conspiracies to, you know, fold into your worldview, it kind of constructs an alternative reality where you've explained that debate becomes impossible.
00:10:24
Because I love the way you put it because there's that argument like, okay, we're on college campuses, we need this healthy debate, right?
00:10:30
You can't thrive academically or intellectually if you don't have opposing viewpoints coming in.
00:10:36
But as you point out, it's not so much about opposing viewpoints, it's about this platform being unavailable for debate.
00:10:42
Yes.
00:10:43
So people say, oh, you got to have every viewpoint in there.
00:10:47
But some viewpoints by their nature seal off other viewpoints from rationality.
00:10:53
If the viewpoint is black Americans are inferior or black people are inferior, intellectually inferior, then you've represented any black person who tries to argue against that,
00:11:05
either as intellectually inferior or as self-interested in trying to argue against you that they can't be rational.
00:11:13
You know, so if you say women are inferior, you know, then any woman arguing against you automatically can't be rational because they're a woman and so they have a stake in the matter.
00:11:23
And so, and what these ideologies that represent other human beings as less rational by their nature, because if they're women, if they're black, if they're Muslim,
00:11:33
or having a secret agenda say, and so not being reasonable because they have a secret agenda, what that means these very ideologies say that you can't have rational debate with them.
00:11:44
If the ideology as women can't be rational, then how could you have a rational debate with a woman?
00:11:50
So, and then you're not being rational because the very promise of your debate is that women can't engage with you.
00:11:58
So very central to scientific racism, from its very inception, this is something Stephen J.
00:12:05
Gould brilliantly discusses in the mismasurer of man.
00:12:09
Scientific racists have always viewed themselves as more, more objective as heroes for free speech.
00:12:16
And in all their terrible errors, you know, if you want a clear example, there's Frederick Kaufman's 1896 race traits of the American Negro, which I discuss and how fascism works and he declares himself as purely objective and scientific.
00:12:30
And it's true that he has many, many charts and statistics there arguing that black people are physically weaker than white people, slower than white people, can lift less weight than white people.
00:12:42
Those are things that anyone now, and they're not part of contemporary racism, that black and black Americans are physically weaker.
00:12:50
But that was considered objectively established fact because what he did is he took a whole bunch of statistics on black American soldiers and physical training on them and showed that white soldiers could lift more weights and were faster.
00:13:07
But what he didn't consider is that the black soldiers were malnourished.
00:13:12
He didn't consider their black soldiers got worse treatment.
00:13:15
He erased racism from it.
00:13:18
So what this quote-unquote objectivity does is it makes you, it masks reality from you.
00:13:25
It's interesting that this person would have written about black folks being weaker when they're also sort of the opposite stories, right, especially during the long term war on drugs,
00:13:35
black Americans were painted as, you know, monstrous, impervious to police bullets, whoever is that racial others, people who have different gender identities,
00:13:47
sexualities, could you kind of talk about these panics that are created over these villains that are often considered satanic monstrous or inhuman in some way and how those themes come back again and again in fascist ideology?
00:14:04
So fascism really centers violence, the idea is it's a war, it's your leader represents the nation, and there are the people who are trying to destroy the nation.
00:14:15
There's various kinds of opponents in fascism, there's the brilliant coup plotters of fascism, the element of the leftist radicals that is often historically played by Jews,
00:14:25
it could be played by Muslims, seems to be played by Muslims now in U.S.
00:14:30
politics.
00:14:31
And then there's the people they're trying to incite black Americans in this case.
00:14:36
So since it's war and you're trying to incite violence against your enemies, the minorities, the leftists, et cetera, you need to create fear and panic,
00:14:48
you need to justify violence against them, you need to justify brutality against them.
00:14:55
And so you need to, so it's no surprise that Hitler borrowed tropes and argued that Nazis should borrow tropes from the Allied First World War propaganda about the Germans.
00:15:09
The Allied First World War propaganda about the Germans represented the Germans as monstrous fruits, raping, non-German women.
00:15:18
And so this patriarchal masculinity is central here because what you do is you represent the other as a threat to your women.
00:15:26
And you say to men, you can't protect your women and children.
00:15:29
Two of the great conspiracy theories last several centuries.
00:15:33
One is blood libel against the Jews.
00:15:36
The idea that Jews are kidnapped in Christian babies for their religious rituals using their blood.
00:15:42
So you're saying, you know, you have to do violence against the Jews because you have to protect your families.
00:15:48
And then the conspiracy theory behind lynching of black Americans, which said black men were raping white women.
00:15:58
These were threats to masculinity.
00:16:00
It wrapped, told men, you can't take care of your women and children.
00:16:04
With QAnon, we have the Othomall together.
00:16:07
We've got the blood libel is inside QAnon.
00:16:11
And all of them appeal.
00:16:12
They raise the fear of loss of masculinity.
00:16:15
You can't protect your family.
00:16:17
You need a strong leader who's not going to be bound by liberal things, by human rights who's going to bash the opponent and save your family.
00:16:27
Ida B.
00:16:28
Wells long ago in Southern Harers identified the structure as centered around patriarchal masculinity.
00:16:35
Speaking to white women, she said, this represents you as a need of protection by white men.
00:16:42
She's like, this represents you as lacking in agency, unable to fall in love with black men.
00:16:50
And you see this all over the world.
00:16:52
You see it as I discuss in my book, the Hindu love, Jihad, the idea that Muslims at India are targeting Hindu women to marry them and bring them over to Islam.
00:17:03
So that has motivated enormous anti-Muslim violence in India.
00:17:07
And it's again based around patriarchal masculinity.
00:17:11
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And now, back to the show.
00:21:23
I think that what is also at the center of this is the idea of the white genocide.
00:21:29
And I think people don't even know they're afraid of it almost.
00:21:31
It's the underlying anxiety that's then exploited.
00:21:35
So would you mind talking a little bit about that and maybe if it does relate to other places because it's not like whiteness is the default, but it's whatever, right?
00:21:42
The colonizing kind of overclass is.
00:21:45
Oh, brilliant.
00:21:46
Absolutely.
00:21:47
You're absolutely right.
00:21:48
You can't disentangle race and gender here.
00:21:51
This kind of white supremacy, it's ugliest manifestation is the fear that non-whites will take over and take your women,
00:22:04
quote unquote, your women.
00:22:06
So it's no surprise that in historically an American racism, the people that were considered most inferior were not blacks or whites, but mixed race people.
00:22:17
In Frederick Hoffman, he argues, he's scientifically shown that mixed race people are the weakest, the most prone to disease, the least intelligent, the most venal, the most criminal,
00:22:27
because that's supposed to be the most horrific of all.
00:22:30
So loss of cultural dominance.
00:22:33
This is the center of fascism, center of fascism is hierarchy.
00:22:37
The hierarchy of white over black, white over non-white, the hierarchy of man over woman.
00:22:43
So white replacement theory, when in Charlottesville when they were chanting, Jews will not replace us.
00:22:50
Many people misunderstood that as saying, we will not have a society that's more Jewish than non-Jewish.
00:22:56
No, that's not what it was.
00:22:57
The Jews, what the Jews were supposedly doing was replacing white Christians by non-white Christians, by non-whites.
00:23:06
Not replacing them by Jews.
00:23:09
So the idea is that white genocide, this was central behind the Tree of Life killings two years ago, October 27th, almost exactly two years ago from the recording of this podcast.
00:23:22
The Tree of Life killer was focused on the Hebrew immigrant aid society, which sort of is emblematic of this idea that Jews are bringing immigrants in to replace the white race.
00:23:34
Now this gets to how to think about this internationally with, say, India, where we're not talking about any whites.
00:23:42
We're talking about a dialectic between Hindus and Muslims.
00:23:45
But you have the same thing, this fear that Muslims will replace Hindus.
00:23:49
I just also wanted to touch on the fact that this work is really personal for you.
00:23:53
And you mentioned that your family had survived the Holocaust, but I know there's a little bit more to that story.
00:23:59
And I was just interested in that because it'll really inform, I think, why this work in carrying on this kind of work has been really important for you.
00:24:07
So I think principally or for your point that both my parents have been the targets of the kind of conspiracy theorizing and vilification that faces black Americans,
00:24:20
for example, in the United States and Muslims and Mexican immigrants.
00:24:25
And I was raised with these stories from my family, not necessarily of the violence they encountered.
00:24:34
And both of them did experience terrible violence.
00:24:37
Neither were in death camps, but my father lived through Khristanakh and was beaten on the streets of Berlin as a child, as a five-year-old.
00:24:45
But both of them remembered how they were represented as monstrous, as viruses, as enemies of the nation.
00:24:56
My father told me about how when he first learned to read, he realized the horrific things people were saying about him.
00:25:05
And my mother, when she was repatriated back to Poland at the age of five, and she lived in Poland until she was eight, there was still horrifying anti-Semitism.
00:25:13
And the way in which people talked about Jewish people, as disease, as dirty, as evil, as threats, as satanic,
00:25:24
these ways of talking about them affected them their whole lives.
00:25:30
And so for me, what we see, when we see these discussions of Sharia law, for instance, these conspiracy theories about Muslims,
00:25:40
when we see the way that our President and his administration are speaking of immigrants, I know that six, seven and eight-year-old children will be scarred by this talk,
00:25:54
even if we overcome this horror.
00:25:57
They will be scarred by their talk, and they'll pass it on to their children, and the way that my parents passed it on to me.
00:26:04
Their children will be able to identify things in the future, as I have been able to identify things.
00:26:11
But it also brings with it a kind of lifelong trauma that I wish, frankly, we could avoid.
00:26:19
>> Man, I don't know, it's a little, I'm a little speechless because it's so incredible not to flatter you, but you've been able to achieve, I think, sort of in the honor of things that have happened in the past,
00:26:33
and then also amissed what promises to possibly be at least a lot more conflict of some kind going forward.
00:26:41
As we see these themes, these stories, these narrative, these conspiracy theories really propping up this administration, and I guess we'll see what that means going forward.
00:26:55
So lastly, something we like to ask of our guests is, after flattering you, I will humble you, is there a time that you believed something that wasn't true,
00:27:07
whether that be?
00:27:08
Because I don't know if you've gotten to any of the episodes where I talk about my past as a conspiracy theorist and how I had to pull myself out of that type of thinking.
00:27:17
I'm wondering whether there was something in your life that duped you.
00:27:24
>> I would say it was being misinformed of the history of Israel.
00:27:29
I thought that Israel had always been occupied by both Jewish people and Palestinians, and Palestinians hadn't been driven off their land,
00:27:40
and in fact, just were murderous towards Jewish people and unfairly wanted to claim the whole land as their own when Jews had always lived there,
00:27:52
and the culture was always Jewish and Palestinians.
00:27:56
I believe an incredible number of false things about Israel, and I was extremely resistant to being told that actually Jewish,
00:28:06
my parents were people who fled Europe, but that Jewish people who fled other countries removed Palestinians from their land.
00:28:16
I was very resistant to learning this.
00:28:18
It seemed to me anti-Semitism at first, and then I realized that actually Palestinians are just like me, and they've had an experience of horror at the hands of my fellow Jewish people,
00:28:30
and my resistance I had to accepting that, so that, to me, was a big moment that happened not so long ago,
00:28:40
maybe 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago.
00:28:45
When I first realized the history of Israel, and had I been blanking out that history, because it ran against the things that I so much wanted to believe and was raised believing.
00:28:56
It's really hard to wrench yourself out of those things we talk about on the episode of confirmation bias, and also this belief polarization where basically if you're presented with counter evidence,
00:29:09
you just even want to double down harder, and so I think it's just, it's like this wrenching apart because it is, it's your reality that you're wrenching apart.
00:29:17
>> Then when you wrench yourself out and you look at reality, I then became terrified about the safety of the Palestinian people.
00:29:25
I know that there are so many people who are in the position that I was of believing false things, of believing that no wrong was ever done to the Palestinian people, that their claims are entirely brown-less,
00:29:37
you know, and so I know that, and that justifies tremendous violence.
00:29:43
So when we, these stories, these conspiracy theories, they're there to, these falsehoods are there to justify tremendous violence against others who seek to really just have equality.
00:29:57
>> I think that's a really good note for us to end on, so thank you so much.
00:30:03
This has been such an interesting conversation.
00:30:07
I just, again, it matches up so much with the panics that we talk about here in the conspiracy theories, so I think that our listeners are probably getting a whole lot out of this, so thank you again,
00:30:18
Jason.
00:30:18
>> Thank you so much, Chelsea.
00:30:19
Thanks to the work that you and your podcast do.
00:30:23
>> Thank you so much for listening.
00:30:25
I encourage you to pick up a copy of How Fascism Works, as well as Jason's new book, Erasing History, How Fascists rewrite the past to control the future.
00:30:37
We're sending love to everyone this week, take care of yourselves in each other, and no matter what happens, let's continue to work toward a better future with as much solidarity as we can muster,
00:30:49
have a week.
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