Fostering open source culture (Interview)
Update: 2025-02-13
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Arun Gupta is back, this time with his latest book in hand titled “Fostering Open Source Culture” to share his wisdom and experiences of fostering open source culture. BTW you can use the code OSCULTURE20 to get 20% off (both print and e-book). Use this link and enjoy.
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Featuring:
- Arun Gupta – Website, GitHub, LinkedIn, X
- Adam Stacoviak – Website, GitHub, LinkedIn, Mastodon, X
- Jerod Santo – GitHub, LinkedIn, Mastodon, X
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- Book announcement
- Buy the book - save 20% using code
OSCULTURE20
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Transcript
00:00:00
(upbeat music)
00:00:02
- This week on The Cheese Law, we're joined by Arun Gupta back again.
00:00:08
Arun is the VP and General Manager of Developer Programs at Intel.
00:00:12
He's also the author of Fostering Open Source Culture, a new book out for Fostering Open Source Culture.
00:00:19
We talked to Arun a few years ago, back it all things open, and we had him getting back on seeing this book out there digging into the details.
00:00:28
This is Arun's seventh book, and it is a blueprint, a map for any of the companies out there trying to foster open source culture inside your organization,
00:00:38
increase innovation, and deliver faster, of course, with open source.
00:00:43
A massive thank you to our friends and our partners over at fly.io.
00:00:48
Fly is the public cloud built for developers who ship that you, that's me, that's us.
00:00:54
Over three million apps have launched on fly, and you can too, you can learn more at fly.io.
00:01:01
Okay, let's foster some open source culture.
00:01:04
(upbeat music)
00:01:06
Well friends, I'm here with Samara Abbas, co-founder and CEO of Temporal.
00:01:17
Temporal is the platform developer used to build invincible applications, but what exactly is Temporal?
00:01:24
Samara, how do you describe what Temporal does?
00:01:26
I would say to explain Temporal is one of the hardest challenges of my life.
00:01:32
It's a developer platform, and it's a paradigm shift.
00:01:34
I've been doing this technology for almost like 15 years.
00:01:38
The way I typically describe it, imagine like all of us when we were writing documents in the 90s, I used to use Microsoft Word.
00:01:45
I love the entire experience of everything, but still the thing that I hated the most is how many documents or how many edits I have lost because I forgot to say, or like something bad happened,
00:01:56
and I lost my document.
00:01:57
You get in the habit when you are writing up a document back in the 90s to do control as literally every sentence.
00:02:03
You write, but in the 2000, Google Doc doesn't even have a save button.
00:02:07
So I believe software developers are still living in the 90s era, where majority of the code they are writing is they have some state which needs to live beyond multiple request response.
00:02:18
Majority of the development is load that state, apply an event, and then take some actions store it back.
00:02:24
80% of the software development is this constant load and save.
00:02:28
So that's exactly what temporal does, what it gives you a platform, where you write a function, and during the execution of a function of failure happens, we will re-select that function on a different host and continue executing where you left off,
00:02:42
without you as a developer writing a single line of code for it.
00:02:46
Okay, if you really leave the 90s and build like it's 2025, and you're ready to learn why companies like Netflix, DoorDash, and StripeTressTemporal, as they're secure, scalable way to build,
00:02:56
invincible applications, go to temporal.io, once again temporal.io.
00:03:03
You can try their clout for free, or get started with open source.
00:03:06
It all starts at temporal.io.
00:03:09
We are back with Arun Guta.
00:03:28
It's good to see Arun.
00:03:30
It's been a couple years.
00:03:31
Yeah, it's been about a year and a half or so.
00:03:34
You know, I was really encouraged by our conversation.
00:03:37
We had it all things open, love all things open, by the way.
00:03:39
It's been a while going back later this year.
00:03:42
Arun, you are at Intel, you wrote an awesome book.
00:03:45
You've been in open source for...
00:03:49
Would you say a very long time?
00:03:50
Is that how you describe it a very long time?
00:03:52
Or do you say the years?
00:03:54
Well, over a couple of decades, let's say.
00:03:57
So it's been a while.
00:03:58
It's been a while.
00:03:59
Gotcha.
00:03:59
I like the way you say in your book, of course, too.
00:04:01
The book I'm talking about is fostering open source culture.
00:04:04
We just got our copy today.
00:04:05
So we don't have super deep depth buts.
00:04:08
There it is.
00:04:08
Arun is hoping to holding it up, covering open source culture, business alignment, auspices of course, internal events, inner source, external communities, employee enablement,
00:04:19
and then also getting started.
00:04:21
I mean, this is a book for anybody really trying to do what you've done in your career, which is jumpstart and prime worthy corporations to really foster and share the joy of open source,
00:04:32
but help others do it well.
00:04:35
Where should we begin?
00:04:35
Where did what made you write this book?
00:04:37
Yeah, I mean, this got my fifth or sixth company where I build that kind of open source culture.
00:04:43
My experience really goes back to back in Sun Microsystem, gosh, 2003, 2004.
00:04:51
I mean, literally over two decades ago, where we were taking the entire company from closed source to open source.
00:04:57
And back in those days, the Java EE reference implementation was glassfish.
00:05:03
And as we were building that reference implementation, we were putting that out on the internet.
00:05:09
And simple things like we would have like a hallway conversation, and somebody reminding that, hey, you can't have a hallway conversation.
00:05:17
Less than an email out on the public mailing list, so that people in the community can understand what's going on over there.
00:05:23
Those are simple cultural nuances.
00:05:24
And we did that over a couple of decades ago.
00:05:28
And since then, I spent a couple of years at Red Hat, a couple of years at Couchbase, a few years at Amazon, and about two years at Apple, and now I didn't talk for about three years.
00:05:40
Across all these companies, I've been building developer communities.
00:05:45
I've been building, bringing that open source cultural change.
00:05:49
And I recognize that pretty much the recipes rinse and repeat in that sense.
00:05:53
And as I was moving across these companies, I recognize, I kept doing the same things again and again.
00:06:00
And I said, hey, and I was also talking to a lot of startups.
00:06:04
A lot of other enterprises, a lot of other friends.
00:06:07
I'm part of several open source foundation boards.
00:06:10
As I talk to senior leaders across the enterprise, I recognize these are very similar recipes.
00:06:15
And that frankly said, okay, how do I scale this element?
00:06:19
That's what I decided to write the book.
00:06:21
So half the book is about my theory in terms of how do you build that open source culture?
00:06:28
Why that culture is important?
00:06:29
And the other half, the more interesting part, I would say, is sort of about 40 plus case studies by 55 plus contributing authors on how and why they have built that open source culture.
00:06:43
I always love a good case study.
00:06:45
That's for sure, especially whenever it's applicable.
00:06:47
You know, sometimes case studies are just case studies for case studies.
00:06:50
Say, because hey, you got to have white papers and somebody on your page or whatever, right?
00:06:55
Wow.
00:06:56
I was digging into some of these.
00:06:57
And like I said, I just got my copy today.
00:06:59
So I haven't gone through a thorough depth with it yet, but excited to do so.
00:07:05
So Arun, you've been at Intel for a few years now.
00:07:08
I think when we met, you had just joined, or maybe you were there six months or something like this.
00:07:12
And you really came on at Intel to foster this open source effort, or I don't know if you call it a community, or what this Osmo, this office, perhaps.
00:07:22
Can you speak about your experience there?
00:07:24
And maybe how you've applied your learnings inside of Intel and what's changed as a result?
00:07:29
Yeah, totally.
00:07:29
So I joined Intel about three years ago, April of 2022.
00:07:35
And I was hired to build an open ecosystem team.
00:07:39
And that's sort of what I built for about a couple of years.
00:07:41
Now, for the last few months, I lead the broader developer programs effort at Intel.
00:07:49
And so for the open source culture part of it, you know, open source program office was part of my team.
00:07:55
My team had the dev rail folks.
00:07:59
My team would sponsor the open source foundations.
00:08:02
My team would sponsor these open source events.
00:08:06
We would do speakerships across the industry.
00:08:09
We would recognize people internally at Intel who would do the chopwood carry water work, which is so, so essential in terms of keeping an open source project thrive.
00:08:21
Now, because oftentimes code is glory, for the chopwood carry water is what keeps the project going.
00:08:28
So I think those were some of the key elements that we did.
00:08:32
You know, we participated very actively in the inner source practice.
00:08:35
We ran a lot of internal open source summits, enablement, advocacy, all sorts of stuff that we did, frankly, to energize the internal engineering community.
00:08:47
And also telling the story in a credible manner, in an authentic manner, to the outside developer community, why Intel cares about open source.
00:08:55
We have a very long history.
00:08:57
I mean, I was looking at it.
00:09:00
Our first commit back to open source was back to the GCC compiler 40 years ago.
00:09:06
And over the last 20 years, Intel has been the top corporate commuter to Linux kernel.
00:09:12
We are one of the top contributors to Kubernetes open JDK.
00:09:16
We are among the top three contributors to both PyTorch and TensorFlow.
00:09:19
So in that sense, it's the hidden jewel that we never talked about it.
00:09:24
So my goal was to really find those stories inside Intel and tell those stories in a credible authentic manner to the outside world.
00:09:32
Yeah, I recall that from our conversation because it was news to me.
00:09:36
I just thought, Intel, there's not an open source story there.
00:09:40
And it just sounded like it was always there to a certain extent, but nobody was telling that story.
00:09:44
It was too far inside, and you know, to use your guys's Intel inside.
00:09:48
It was too inside for a lot of us devs to even know that Intel was doing open source.
00:09:53
So the company was already bought into the overall idea.
00:09:57
Does your book also talk about the process of advocating not just we should use open source, because it's great for our business.
00:10:04
But then taking that next step of like, let's not just be users of open source, let's participate, let's contribute, let's support, etc.
00:10:13
Was that already established inside of Intel?
00:10:16
Or did you have to bring that to them?
00:10:17
No, I think it was very well established inside the Intel.
00:10:20
We just had to kind of set up some formal programs where that is more recognized.
00:10:25
And once that is recognized, then it becomes a lot more sustainable.
00:10:29
Like, I'm at Intel, but prior to that, I was at Apple and prior to that at Amazon.
00:10:34
And those are the companies where we had to do a lot of grind work in terms of why open source matters.
00:10:40
Like, sure, you can leverage Kubernetes, you know, to the best of your advantage.
00:10:45
But if there are issues, if there are challenges in the project, how do we enable our engineers to participate in the open source community, because you can't expect,
00:10:57
you know, to win a NBA game by standing on the sideline, you know, you got to get into the field, you know, get under the three pointer line and shoot something over there to score.
00:11:07
And that was the whole narrative that that, hey, your problems are very unique to you.
00:11:13
You can't just file an issue in the GitHub community and say, the community, quote unquote, will, you know, resolve it, because there is no nebulous community who gonna care about your issues.
00:11:25
Open source is all about understanding that fabric, understanding that dynamic, you know, doing the chop wood carry water work so that when you need help,
00:11:35
others will be willing to help you out over there.
00:11:38
So a lot of it was, Kubernetes is built by 80,000 developers across 5,000 companies.
00:11:45
There is no need to invest into any such engineering effort.
00:11:49
One or two maintainers is all it takes.
00:11:52
Either hire the top maintainers or groom inside the company for somebody to become a maintainer, so that then your issues can be resolved.
00:12:00
And then, of course, once you become a maintainer, or you hire a maintainer, then you don't put them into dark.
00:12:06
You only gonna work on my issues, because that's what brings the credibility to the maintainer as well.
00:12:12
That's what brings authenticity to the maintainer as well, that in addition to solving your own engineering challenges, they're continuing to help the community, because that helps them expand their network,
00:12:23
their skills at.
00:12:24
And what's the best way that a large org is you're mostly working with enterprise.
00:12:27
I mean, your history is all enterprise.
00:12:29
Of course, there's small business and startups as well, but for enterprise to engage, obviously, like you said, hire existing maintainers or groom future maintainers of the project.
00:12:42
That's to me seems like the obvious one of like that's probably the most impact you can have, but so set that one aside, what are the best ways that enterprises can engage with their open source communities?
00:12:55
A lot of different ways actually.
00:12:58
Oftentimes, we think that just the code contribution is the only way you can engage.
00:13:04
One of the chapters in the book is really talking about 10 different ways by which you can contribute to open source communities in a non-code manner, coding is just one part of it.
00:13:16
Project management, these projects are heavy on project management, bug triage, reviewing the code, technical documentation, and again, these are more on the technical side,
00:13:27
but then let's get into a little bit more non-technical side.
00:13:29
Usually these projects sit in the open source foundation, and these projects require security audits, these project require infrastructure,
00:13:40
CI/CD infrastructure, these projects run their events.
00:13:44
So you need all sorts of different skill sets in order to sustain these projects.
00:13:50
So sponsor of those foundations, participate in the governing boards.
00:13:54
There are working groups, there are special interest groups like SIGS that drive the technical discussions in these projects.
00:14:03
So encourage your employees to participate in those working groups so that they can actually continue to have an impact over there.
00:14:10
For example, Intel allows me to be their rep on the governing board of CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Open Source Security Foundation.
00:14:21
And about a couple of years ago, when there was an opportunity that, okay, I could stand up for an Open Source Security Foundation governing board chair, so I talked to my bus,
00:14:32
that hey, you know what, this is not an additional job that I'm taking up because it's going to consume a non-trivial amount of my time.
00:14:38
She helped me out, she said, okay, you know what, what do you need?
00:14:42
So then she basically allowed me to hire a person who I can offload a lot of my work in terms of internal open source strategy so that then I could take over this role.
00:14:53
So I think kind of creating those incentive mechanisms, recognizing the employees, putting that as part of their annual focal or quarterly insights or their okay hours goes a long way because end of the day we humans are always looking for incentives.
00:15:08
So creating those intense mechanisms, being very deliberate about it, and saying, hey, your bonus really relies upon this or your individual performance kind of relies upon this,
00:15:20
goes a long, long way as opposed to like, I don't know why you're contributing to this open source.
00:15:26
This, if you start getting down to micro level, that this pull request that you reviewed does not help to my bottom line, that does not get you anywhere.
00:15:35
So I think step back, think at a macro level, how does it help your effort, how does it help the community because end of the day, the sustainability of the open source project is super critical.
00:15:48
So for example at Apple, pretty much all of their services run using open JDK.
00:15:53
So the sustainability of the project is super critical to them because if you were to internally fork the project, open JDK is built by thousands of developers.
00:16:04
The community knowledge, the intellectual knowledge, it brings across that diverse set of developers and use cases is what makes JDK strong.
00:16:13
You can't have that kind of a complexity that kind of engineering expertise from just one company.
00:16:21
And that's the beauty of open source.
00:16:23
And that's why the management, the middle management, everybody across the chain has to understand that, okay, this is why contribution to open source is critical.
00:16:33
What's the hardest pitch to actually sell on the inside of these because you're preaching to the choir here and so we're very much like nodding along an agreement,
00:16:45
but certainly people get pushed back.
00:16:48
And so some pushback probably appropriately because it's a lot to commit a lot of resources to something that you don't actually kind of have to commit to, like yeah, it'd be nice,
00:16:59
but we do have a quarterly report to get done.
00:17:02
And you know, we have we have things to hit and things to sell.
00:17:06
So what are the kind of pitches that struggle to get through and how do you overcome such things?
00:17:12
I think the biggest impetus that have seen across these companies is just purely lack of awareness.
00:17:19
You know, when I was at Amazon or when I was at Apple, either of those places, oh, we've always done it this way and we are fairly successful.
00:17:29
Why pivot?
00:17:30
What is this open source thing?
00:17:31
Who cares about it?
00:17:32
And again, granted, this was about a few years ago and the lot has changed over those years.
00:17:38
Amazon has definitely become a lot more open source friendly.
00:17:41
Not so sure about Apple, but the it was purely lack of awareness.
00:17:46
And so in that sense, the strategy that we saw worked at, at Apple was that, hey, all of this business around iPhone, Mac,
00:17:57
we do want to touch that at all.
00:17:58
There is no need for that.
00:18:00
Then we kind of create those isolation areas that, hey, this Kubernetes thing, this OpenJerikai, this PyTorch, this all heavily lives in the open source world.
00:18:11
This is completely undifferentiated heavy lifting for you.
00:18:15
And if we make that work better, that only runs our infrastructure in that much more scalable manner, that helps us cut down our cost of running that entire infrastructure.
00:18:28
One developer, maybe two contributors, two maintainers, goes a long way, building Apple's credibility.
00:18:36
So for example, when I joined Apple, and I've been on the CNCF board for about eight years, when I joined Apple, there were about 40 people that joined after I joined,
00:18:47
because, you know, that's sort of how the open source world moves.
00:18:51
Oh, this person is big in open source.
00:18:53
And he's joining Apple.
00:18:54
And I don't know what is going on in Apple that builds trust and credibility.
00:18:59
So in that sense, it becomes like a hiring magnet.
00:19:02
So I think all of those things really take time to simmer.
00:19:06
And for, first, I would say, first few months were really challenging, because you walk in there and you start questioning everything, you start asking everything.
00:19:16
And inertia is always hard, right?
00:19:18
You know, Newton's law of motions always kick in that, you know, thing is moving in a certain direction.
00:19:23
You're trying to change the directions.
00:19:24
Like, wait, wait, what's going on here?
00:19:26
So I think in that sense, that was a bit challenging, but I was talking to my team, you know, my extreme from Apple.
00:19:33
And they're saying, hey, we have, because that team now exists, I built the first open source program office at Apple.
00:19:40
And they were saying we have such a wonderful relationship with engineering, with legal, with marketing.
00:19:45
They understand the value that we bring, lot more, you know, streamlined operations.
00:19:49
So in that sense, I would say a bit of a patience is required that, okay, things are going to work out.
00:19:57
And perseverance is required.
00:19:59
You know, understanding what the management wants, understanding how you're going to operationalize it across mental management to the engineering level is all that it takes.
00:20:11
And being, being very patient, being very perseverance and being very clinical about it, that, okay, I'm not trying to change the world.
00:20:19
I'm not trying to boil the ocean.
00:20:21
Here are a few simple steps that would make it work for us because in open source, we talk about self-interest.
00:20:28
You know, does that matter?
00:20:31
You know, no, that's exactly what works actually as a matter of fact.
00:20:35
You know, I'm not doing this for the charity.
00:20:39
You know, it's enlightened self-interest.
00:20:41
I'm participating in the open source community so that when there are issues, I can just jump in and fix my issue.
00:20:50
And that really reduces my, you know, downtime of an application.
00:20:54
So I think those are some of the pictures that I've seen that seem to work better and be more acceptable.
00:21:01
In case of Amazon, for example, Amazon is always always keen on working with the customers, right?
00:21:09
So when I joined Amazon back in 2017, we were launching Amazon EKS.
00:21:16
I joined in April March or so, and then I learned about, hey, we're going to launch EKS at rain when that year.
00:21:23
So that whole next seven, eight months was helping Amazon understand, how do you work with open source community?
00:21:31
You don't just walk in, like, I mean, AWS, you know, in that sense is a, is the biggest hyperscaler.
00:21:37
You just don't walk into an open source community.
00:21:40
I wanted done this way.
00:21:41
So teaching sort of the dynamics of the open source community, helping them build those open source relationships goes a long way.
00:21:47
There's kind of two angles into open source as an enterprise.
00:21:51
You have let's support embrace, extend, not extinguish, but extend the stuff that we currently already using, right?
00:22:01
Like we already depend on this thing.
00:22:02
It's core to our business.
00:22:04
We're going to actually put some money into it or put some engineering effort into it.
00:22:07
And then the other one is like, let's take something that we have built that's internal and proprietary and let's open source that.
00:22:15
And I think that there's different concerns and different pushbacks to those two different types of embracing on the actual, let's open source some stuff front.
00:22:24
Certainly there's people inside of large enterprises say, yo, we can't do that.
00:22:28
This is our competitive advantage.
00:22:30
What do you say when he's saying when people says, why would we just like, it's what we sell.
00:22:34
Let's not give it away for instance.
00:22:37
Yeah.
00:22:38
It's always my first question anytime a team comes to me that we want to open source this.
00:22:45
My question is why?
00:22:46
Why do you want to open source this?
00:22:48
What's in it for you to open source this?
00:22:52
Are you looking to gain mind share?
00:22:55
Are you looking to get more engineering contribution?
00:22:59
Is that a mandatory requirement?
00:23:02
Say the partners are telling you, we would not adopt this technology until it is open source because then we are not just relying upon you,
00:23:12
but we can fork it if we need to or we can contribute to it directly.
00:23:16
So I think there are several reasons.
00:23:19
And if I go through the book essentially, you know, this is the book that I was talking this is the book that we're talking about.
00:23:24
There are several why that we talk about.
00:23:27
Is it a faster innovation?
00:23:29
Is it a more sustainable code base?
00:23:32
Because then essentially, you're not just relying upon your engineering teams.
00:23:37
You know, you could do fun things.
00:23:39
But then in the project, you can also create good first issue where you can encourage developers from around the world to help contribute over there.
00:23:49
It could be cost savings as a matter of fact.
00:23:51
Okay.
00:23:51
For example, I may not want to run CI/CD infrastructure and a hyperscale are maybe interested in contributing credits for you to give those infrastructure.
00:24:01
It may be a strategic initiative for the company.
00:24:04
So for example, when Google launched Kubernetes, it was made very clear.
00:24:10
If you keep it as a Google project, even though open source, nobody would care about it.
00:24:16
That's the reason they ended up contributing Kubernetes to a foundation so that is now neutral governance body, et cetera.
00:24:24
And then everybody else kind of jumped onto the bandwagon and became a success.
00:24:28
It could be a compliance and security as a matter of fact or community building or it could be sheer market visibility.
00:24:35
That hey, this company Apple, for example, launched Swift and they just want market visibility because the only way to build developers around that is getting Apple's name out there and bringing all those students and those developers who can then contribute directly to the language.
00:24:53
The reason Intel contributes to these open source projects, I mean, we contribute to 300 plus open source projects.
00:25:00
You pick an open source project and we likely contribute to it.
00:25:04
The reason we do that is because our customers, for example, who use our Intel silicon, whether it's a hyperscaler laptop,
00:25:16
a network, a edge, wherever it is, they download these open source projects and they expect them to work in an optimal manner.
00:25:24
So the why really is because our customers expect these open source projects to leverage the latest chipset.
00:25:31
That's the reason we contribute back to these projects.
00:25:34
I think whether you are contributing to an existing project or you are open sourcing an existing project, the why the business alignment is fundamentally critical and why you want to do that.
00:25:57
Well friends, I am here with a new friend of mine, Scott Dietzen, CEO of Augment Code.
00:26:07
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00:26:08
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00:26:14
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00:26:19
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00:26:21
It's your deep thinking buddy.
00:26:22
It's your stand flow antidote.
00:26:24
Okay, it's got.
00:26:25
So for the foreseeable future, AI assisted is here to stay.
00:26:28
It's just a matter of getting the AI to be a better assistant.
00:26:33
And in particular, I want help on the thinking part, not necessarily the coding part.
00:26:37
Can you speak to the thinking problem versus the coding problem and the potential false dichotomy there?
00:26:42
Couple of different points to make.
00:26:44
You know, AI's have gotten good at making incremental changes, at least when they understand customer software.
00:26:51
So first in the biggest limitation that these AI's have today, they really don't understand anything about your code base.
00:26:57
If you take GitHub co-pilot, for example, it's like a fresh college graduate.
00:27:01
Understand some programming languages and algorithms.
00:27:04
It doesn't understand what you're trying to do.
00:27:06
And as a result of that, something like two-thirds of the community on average drops off of the product, especially the expert developers.
00:27:14
Augment is different.
00:27:15
We use retrieval augment in generation to deeply mine the knowledge that's inherent inside your code base.
00:27:21
So we are a co-pilot that is an expert and they can help you navigate the code base, help you find issues and fix them and resolve them over time.
00:27:30
Much more quickly than you can trying to tutor up a novice on your software.
00:27:35
So you're often compared to GitHub co-pilot.
00:27:38
I got to imagine that you have a hot take.
00:27:40
What's your hot take on GitHub co-pilot?
00:27:42
I think it was a great 1.0 product and I think they've done a huge service in promoting AI, but I think the game has changed.
00:27:51
We have moved from AI's that are new college graduates to an effect AI's that are now among the best developers in your code base.
00:27:59
And that difference is a profound one for software engineering in particular.
00:28:04
You know, if you're writing a new application from scratch, you want a web page that will play tic-tac-toe, piece a cake to crank that out.
00:28:11
But if you're looking at, you know, a tens of millions of line code base, like many of our customers, Lemonade is one of them.
00:28:18
I mean, 10 million line mono repo.
00:28:20
As they move engineers inside and around that code base and hire new engineers, just the workload on senior developers to mentor people into areas of the code base they're not familiar with is hugely painful.
00:28:32
An AI that knows the answer and is available seven by 24.
00:28:36
You don't have to interrupt anybody and can help coach you through whatever you're trying to work on is hugely empowering to an engineer working an unfamiliar code.
00:28:45
Very cool.
00:28:45
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00:28:57
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00:29:00
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00:29:18
You mentioned having some case studies.
00:29:25
I don't know if you have any case studies around this but the question really is is like aside from Kubernetes that's a good example of Google open sourcing it,
00:29:38
not holding on to it.
00:29:40
They gave it to the foundation.
00:29:42
What are other good examples and maybe you've written about them in your book?
00:29:47
I'm not sure.
00:29:47
That are beyond Kubernetes.
00:29:49
There are examples of a large corporation giving something or even a smaller startup even like not even so much a corporation but like what are some of their examples of beyond Kubernetes?
00:29:59
Yeah, I think the book has about 40 plus case studies and these are case studies from companies like Mercedes Benz,
00:30:09
Bloomberg, Toyota, GitHub, Infosys, Dell, Amazon, a wide range of companies, Fidelity, Johns Hopkins, UC Santa Cruz,
00:30:20
so from a wide range of verticals as well.
00:30:24
These case studies really talk about why they care about open source culture and what have they done within their company to foster that open source culture.
00:30:36
For example, Bloomberg, one of their big corporate philosophies is philanthropy and for them contributing to open source fundamentally aligns with that corporate philosophy.
00:30:48
As a matter of fact, what they also do is for developers who contribute to open source, they do matching dollars.
00:30:56
We can contribute dollars to open source foundation of your choice.
00:31:00
So in that sense, lots of these, so the beauty of these case studies is no matter where you are in a journey.
00:31:08
Are you starting?
00:31:09
Are you an expert?
00:31:11
Because the wide range of case studies that have been incorporated into the book, there is something for everybody.
00:31:17
And frankly, I reviewed each and every of these case studies.
00:31:22
I did not write them because they were written by 55 contributing authors, but even to date, I am sure over the next several months and years, whenever I read these case studies, I miss this nugget and this is how I can apply to my day to day life.
00:31:36
So I think in that sense, there are lots and lots of different case studies.
00:31:40
So I would encourage readers to go through the book and say which vertical do you align with?
00:31:47
Oh, maybe I'm a medical in the farmy industry.
00:31:50
So I will take a look at Jones Hopkins.
00:31:53
Maybe I'm a retailer, I'll take a look at Amazon.
00:31:55
Maybe I'm a GSI.
00:31:56
I'm going to take a look at that.
00:31:58
I'm a device manufacturer.
00:32:00
I'll take a look at Dell case study or I'm into a technology company.
00:32:04
Several examples in there.
00:32:05
I think in that sense, hopefully the diversity, the quality and the quantity of case studies gives everybody a nugget that they can pick up and apply into their day to day work.
00:32:18
I think going back to the why is really important and well said by you because if you have a solid why that aligns with your business incentives,
00:32:28
everything else kind of makes sense.
00:32:30
And if you don't, then you're kind of perpendicular and you shouldn't be doing this in the first place.
00:32:34
And so if you can find the why right away, I think Swift is another good example.
00:32:38
You brought that one up a room where it's like Apple put a lot in a Swift.
00:32:42
And if they just wanted an awesome language for iOS or Apple platform engineers, they probably didn't need open source.
00:32:51
Of course, there's non-open source languages of the past that are just fine for that.
00:32:55
But if they want a general purpose programming language that's adopted by everyone around the world, it had to be open source.
00:33:02
And so that was their why is like we want this to be more impactful than merely the next best language, not the next best.
00:33:10
The best language that they think for developing Apple apps.
00:33:14
And so that's another good one where it's like that was a huge decision because think of how much money they had in the Swift, you know, just engineering hours.
00:33:21
It was like five years of just Chris Ladner working on it.
00:33:24
And then they brought a team in and then like all this stuff.
00:33:26
And then they got all this stuff rewritten in Swift.
00:33:29
And so that's a huge investment that someone said, yeah, we're going to go ahead and give it away to the world in order to accomplish our business goals.
00:33:40
And I think that's totally fine.
00:33:41
And it makes a complete sense.
00:33:42
Not everything is merely altruism.
00:33:45
It's cool with Bloomberg that they have that in their mission statement or whatever like philanthropy is one of our core incentives at Bloomberg.
00:33:51
Not every business does that.
00:33:53
But if you can find your why, then the details have to be figured out and managed, but they're just details.
00:33:58
Correct.
00:33:59
No, I think you're putting it very well.
00:34:02
There is different companies have different wise.
00:34:06
And each company has different wise for different projects as a matter of fact.
00:34:11
But locking that down, writing it down is super important because oftentimes is brewing in your head.
00:34:17
So usually when any leader comes to me that, okay, we want to open sources project my first question is why?
00:34:24
And there is a corporate altruism, as you said, you know, in some cases, more often than not, it's an enlightened self-interest at all.
00:34:32
Okay, this is where it's going to serve me.
00:34:35
And in the process, it's going to serve the world as well.
00:34:37
It's totally a fair gesture as a matter of fact.
00:34:40
I mean, one of the efforts, like I think Adam, you were asking Intel contributed, for example, one API, right?
00:34:47
So we created this one API that's going to be a unified API across different accelerator architectures.
00:34:53
So we created this for our benefit, but then over the period of time we realized, hey, you know, this could benefit the world as well.
00:35:00
So over a couple of years ago, we created this thing called as UXL foundation, uniform acceleration foundation.
00:35:05
So that's the foundation that we created or brought a whole bunch of members together over there.
00:35:10
And now that thing is good taking a life of its own.
00:35:14
So in that sense, the whole idea was, if this is indeed an API, unified API, then everybody needs to partner in and everybody needs an equal stake at the table so that they can define what the life of it's going to look like.
00:35:28
Because if you want that collective engineering effort, there is no other way without going out in the open source.
00:35:35
And that the diversity of thoughts is what I really enjoy in the open source journey.
00:35:40
We're steep in open source, of course.
00:35:42
But how does this reflect into the other open source, aka, inner source?
00:35:49
I was just leaving through the the GitHub case study really quick.
00:35:53
We're having this conversation.
00:35:55
I was just looking at how essentially their inner source, you know, GitHub began as a social coding platform.
00:36:02
We all know GitHub, I don't need to tell you what that is.
00:36:05
But their practice of inner source really became this sort of internal, like basically open source behind the firewall inside GitHub.
00:36:14
How does that manifest in a lot of these companies?
00:36:16
Is that truly open source?
00:36:18
What are they calling that?
00:36:19
Is it licensed?
00:36:20
How do you manifest inner source?
00:36:23
What begins that?
00:36:24
It's just simply our software and you can contribute.
00:36:27
Or is it?
00:36:28
How does that manifest?
00:36:29
I think the biggest reason that I've seen inner source happening are multi-fold.
00:36:35
First is, you want to avoid duplication of code.
00:36:39
How many logos do you need in a world?
00:36:42
In a company, if everybody is writing a same ETL app, there is no point doing that code duplication.
00:36:52
So how can I create that discipline where inside the company, when you're not within the firewall, you're not going outside, it was only engineers from the company that can contribute to it.
00:37:04
So hopefully you can be a bit more open.
00:37:06
So in that sense, how do you publish that repo so that others in the company understand this ETL app is being built?
00:37:15
And we can all contribute to that.
00:37:16
Again, very much open source philosophy that 80% of my task is already done with that one ETL app.
00:37:23
I just need to put 20% more effort to customize it for my need.
00:37:28
And if I contribute it back upstream inside the inner source repo itself, that'll do my job.
00:37:34
So that's fun.
00:37:35
The second part of it is, a lot of the companies have certain stricter requirements that what you can or cannot do in open source.
00:37:44
Inner source basically is bringing that open source practice inside the firewall.
00:37:50
So that's really a good way by which you can coach your employees, train your employees on all the open source skills with much less risk.
00:38:01
Oftentimes, companies are under a repetition that, oh, you know what, if this person wearing my company hoodie, you know, commits something out in the public,
00:38:13
it's going to look really bad.
00:38:14
You know, that one person will define the whole company, which is generally not true at all.
00:38:20
Now, everybody make mistake, giving people a chance to recover from the mistake is exactly what defines them to be more successful.
00:38:27
But it is what it is.
00:38:29
So inner source in that sense provides that learning opportunity platform where they can practice all of the open source practices inside the company.
00:38:38
And GitHub definitely has a very excellent case study in that.
00:38:42
There is a case study by inner source comments by Gail and Russ over there as well because they really call out in terms of all the fun things that have happened,
00:38:54
you know, within inner source comments because that provides common terminology.
00:38:59
They run a inner source comments gathering on a regular basis.
00:39:02
They have lots of inner source case studies over there.
00:39:05
So you can start looking at it on all the fun things that are happening in the inner source space.
00:39:10
And then the third reason that I've seen it is you could see potentially inner source as a stepping stone, you know, a stepping stone to going to open source.
00:39:19
So for example, a project started, you want to see how the internal collaboration is going to look like because oftentimes teams don't recognize, don't realize that,
00:39:29
hey, I built a project before I released into open source.
00:39:34
I don't know what level of support I would need.
00:39:38
Do I need 30% more engineering?
00:39:41
If pull requests start coming in, how am I going to manage them?
00:39:45
If people file issues, if they are not aligned with my roadmap, how does that work out?
00:39:49
So again, inner source kind of gives them that feeling as a stepping stone to going to open source that, okay, this looks like, okay, I understand my engineering efforts are not going up by 30%,
00:40:00
by only 10%.
00:40:01
And maybe when I go to open source, they will double up to 20%.
00:40:05
So it helps them with their resource planning and their roadmap and all of those things.
00:40:09
So in that sense, inner source is very, very effective.
00:40:12
And Intel has a very large inner source practice.
00:40:15
We have hundreds and thousands of repos here, which are run on an internal platform, very nice nomenclature.
00:40:23
So it kind of calls out, are you looking by a language?
00:40:27
Are you looking by a technology?
00:40:29
Are you looking by a business unit?
00:40:31
So you can start filtering your repos.
00:40:33
And that really significantly improves the discoverability of the entire element that we were talking about earlier.
00:40:39
So I think in that sense, inner source is definitely a key factor that allows you to be on that open source journey in a much more constrained environment.
00:40:47
And giving executives that feeling that, yeah, nothing is lost here is all happening within the company.
00:40:53
And most importantly, giving them a comfort feeling that when these people go out, they're drained on these tools very well.
00:40:59
It seems like almost like a proving ground for open source at large.
00:41:03
It's like, if you don't know what open sources or dare back the question you asked before, what are the hard questions or what are the pushbacks you get from management?
00:41:10
I feel like if you can prove, this is how inner source works.
00:41:14
Now imagine how it works for the world.
00:41:17
You know, like it's this, you know, our safe world behind our firewall, controllable, you know, all those things.
00:41:25
It's still unclear to me though how you begin.
00:41:29
Is it simply like a private repel on GitHub?
00:41:33
Is there a way to dashboard this stuff?
00:41:35
How do you truly, you know, spark this?
00:41:38
It seems like it's bottom, bottoms up like where it's, I've got this thing.
00:41:42
I think this team or these other teams could use.
00:41:44
I still don't understand how you manifest inner source.
00:41:48
Is it just, you know, behind authentication and authorization?
00:41:53
Is that what it is?
00:41:54
I'll give you two examples.
00:41:55
One of them is from Apple, like the IT team from their reached out that folks we are recognizing the ETL example that I gave earlier that there are six different ETLs that are happening.
00:42:09
It's a waste of resource, waste of time and a waste of engineering resource.
00:42:13
Now how do we consolidate all of them together?
00:42:16
So essentially what we did is, you know, from ground up, we built up a inner source org and we built up a nomenclature that, okay, folks, as you are creating these new projects and even within the company there could be sometimes firewall,
00:42:31
right?
00:42:31
Like, oh, IT team only want to collaborate among themselves, which is fine, you know, whatever the structure is.
00:42:37
So we created an org, internal org on a GitHub platform or whatever you get platform is.
00:42:42
We created an internal org and said that, okay, folks, before you create a new project, take a look at that org.
00:42:51
There is some discoverability mechanism, there is some tagging mechanism.
00:42:55
You can start looking at dashboards in terms of how healthy the project is, how many other teams across the company have adopted it.
00:43:05
What is a bug fixing rate?
00:43:08
What is a pull request approval rate?
00:43:10
Because that's kind of shows the health of the project in that sense.
00:43:14
Because if anybody is coming and looking at an open source project, that's what they will look at.
00:43:17
Why not adopt the exact same practice inside the company?
00:43:21
So that's sort of how we started ground up.
00:43:24
It took a while for us to gain traction.
00:43:26
We ran a inner source, inner source event internally.
00:43:29
A lot more curated people because then they're coming to learn about inner source and we had to intentionally and very deliberately build those relationships and connection.
00:43:40
So it took a time, but then the practice kicked off.
00:43:44
I came to Intel.
00:43:45
At Intel, there was already an effort that was happening on that.
00:43:49
So we have 100,000 plus repos.
00:43:51
Those were all put onto the platform.
00:43:53
They were all on a wide range of CI/CD systems, wide range of Git repos, wide range of orgs.
00:43:59
All of that was automatically then thought about that, okay, how do we bring this into inner source again?
00:44:05
Improve the discoverability, cut down the cost on running this wide variety of CI/CD systems, cut down the cost by drawing this wide range of orgs, etc.
00:44:15
So that really allowed us to minimize the cost and then also improve the engineering time that is required.
00:44:23
I already found 70% of my work done and I'm just going to contribute to that project and that really cuts on my engineering time and now I'm also able to exchange that mind,
00:44:34
that knowledge with another engineering team who's having a similar issue.
00:44:38
So in that sense, it continues to build that intellectual knowledge as opposed to intellectual property for your work and you continue to make progress.
00:44:48
I think there is no right answer here.
00:44:51
It really depends upon where you are in the journey and how you want to start about it.
00:44:56
Yeah, I like that.
00:44:58
I like it.
00:44:58
It seems like some of the key characteristics are, you know, organization, some sort of org that says, okay, we're going to make this a thing.
00:45:06
This is not a thing or making a thing.
00:45:08
That's easy.
00:45:08
You mentioned nomenclatious.
00:45:10
How do we describe this stuff?
00:45:11
And maybe each company is a little different with the way they describe it, but maybe there's certain terms, terms across all inner source organizations, across different companies to just make sense.
00:45:21
And there's some sort of shared knowledge or shared nomenclature.
00:45:24
And then you've got sort of visibility.
00:45:26
Okay, I don't want to recreate the wheel.
00:45:28
I don't want to go out to the open source land because I can't play there.
00:45:32
I got to play in business user land, not open source user land.
00:45:35
And so working, I find that stuff and then gauge my own desires.
00:45:39
Like, are they maintaining a well?
00:45:41
Does it solve my true problems?
00:45:43
Can I actually contribute all these different things that you would consider?
00:45:47
I love, though, how this manifests to say, these are the open source culture mechanisms you would care about.
00:45:55
I love how that has the possibility, I suppose, of of getting people to truly understand what open source at large works and how it works versus simply just how it works internally.
00:46:05
I think one of the things that we don't talk often about is as new developers are getting on board.
00:46:15
They're coming fresh out of college.
00:46:17
A lot of the developers understand open source really well, but for developers who don't understand open source well, who have that fear of failure, that, oh, I'm,
00:46:27
it's gonna spoil my career.
00:46:30
It may not look good on my career or whatever, right?
00:46:33
One of the best keynotes I heard at CoupCon was this person said, hey, I burned down a 10,000 node CoupCon is cluster at Spotify.
00:46:44
And a week later, I did that again, and my manager said, go give this keynote and how you recover from it.
00:46:51
So I think inner source in that, I mean, it's a bold move and I really love it.
00:46:57
I admire it because that's how I am, but not everybody is like that, right?
00:47:01
So in that sense, inner source really gives that safe space for people to like, okay, I'm going to refine my skills in my own comfortable environment and I'm going to try this out.
00:47:10
I played with the CID CD system.
00:47:12
I know how to get fork it.
00:47:14
I know how to get merged.
00:47:16
I know how to rebase.
00:47:17
And I'm learning those internal tools.
00:47:19
So that's from the engineer perspective.
00:47:22
On the other side, you know, from the inner source team, doing that advocacy, providing those tools, running those workshops, running those internal hackathons, you know, that okay, let's get together.
00:47:32
Let's figure out what this project is.
00:47:34
Let me guide you how this works.
00:47:36
And that opens up the avenues and the opportunities for the engineer that when I go out in the public, it's very much like that.
00:47:42
It's just that the person on the other side is from a different company.
00:47:45
That's cool.
00:47:48
So you dedicate an entire chapter to internal events.
00:47:51
You just mentioned a couple of things right there.
00:47:53
And while we're talking inner, it was a surprise to me to see a chapter on internal events because I'm not in the know.
00:48:01
But apparently you are.
00:48:03
And so tell us why that is like a whole chapter of your book and why that's so important inside of organizations in order to foster this open source ethos.
00:48:12
I think it's super important.
00:48:13
And I'm again looking at the chapters here.
00:48:15
The types of internal events that I talk about in that book is like workshops where you are bringing people and teaching them that okay, let me tell you how to be a effective get user hackathons where you bring a project and say let's hack on this together.
00:48:31
So now that you've learned the skill, let's apply this to a real-time project because you know, just the workshop and hackathons is just a very different nature.
00:48:40
Bring those external guest speakers.
00:48:42
You know, these are luminaries across the industry that you can bring them on.
00:48:47
That way you get to hear their story, you feel inspired about it.
00:48:52
Internal projects where you may say that okay, I'm just going to run a hobby project.
00:48:56
And on a daily basis, I'm feeling the need that I need to do this again and again and again.
00:49:01
So every knowledge that I've learned so far, I'm going to spend up an internal project, maybe an inner source as a matter of fact.
00:49:08
Having those topical summits, I remember when we did the open ecosystem summit at Intel a couple of years ago, there were about 2,500 people that showed up.
00:49:17
And a lot of internal discovery happened.
00:49:20
I did not know you were working on this project.
00:49:23
I did not know you were working on this effort.
00:49:25
So that really allowed them to connect with each other and then join hands.
00:49:29
Very little experience when we ran the first Kubernetes summit at Apple.
00:49:33
There were 1000 plus people that showed up at Apple to that Kubernetes summit.
00:49:39
And Apple, as you understand, the company culture is very walled across different views.
00:49:45
But for the open source topic like Kubernetes, they were all able to share information and they recognize that the technical challenges are very similar because they know exactly how the Kubernetes is deployed.
00:50:00
They know the internal terminology or the entire architecture.
00:50:05
So they can talk at a very much elevated level in that sense.
00:50:09
And that essentially brings that internal community.
00:50:13
There's a particular chapter dedicated on how do you organize the hackathons?
00:50:17
And how do you go about doing those hackathons?
00:50:19
So I think it's super important.
00:50:21
The relevance of those internal events because there's internal events help you prepare to be a better citizen out in the open source world.
00:50:30
They help you bridge the gap, connect to the existing open source elements.
00:50:35
So a lot of fun.
00:50:36
I think it's very, very relevant.
00:50:38
And I've seen the importance of these internal events all across.
00:50:42
And in that chapter, there is case studies by BlackRock, Infosys, Intel and Sousa in terms of how they have leveraged these case studies,
00:50:52
how they have leveraged internal events.
00:50:55
Like I remember Sousa talks about something like Hack Week.
00:50:59
So where they will have a week dedicated to hackathons.
00:51:02
And no work done during that time, but essentially bring a project in hack on it.
00:51:08
And that incentive by the top management is really big time.
00:51:12
And encourages employees that it's okay to do that.
00:51:16
And that is what is fundamental.
00:51:17
You mentioned the thousand people that showed up to that first Apple Kubernetes event.
00:51:23
You reminded me of an old show we did with the late great Dan Cone.
00:51:27
One of my favorite episode titles ever, Adam.
00:51:30
If you remember this one, we named it.
00:51:31
Kubernetes brings all the cloud natives to the yard.
00:51:35
We were just, we were just so surprised at how many, like the growth of KubeCon and just how excited people were for Kubernetes back in the late teens.
00:51:45
It was amazing.
00:51:48
Like KubeCon doubled in size every year for the first five years or something and crazy like that.
00:51:52
It was probably a surprise at the time that a thousand people showed up.
00:51:56
But probably shouldn't have been because, man, people were just interested in Kubernetes for sure.
00:52:00
Yeah, for sure.
00:52:01
That was a good title, Jared.
00:52:02
Good call back.
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00:54:50
Again Notion.com/changelog One thing that you were talking about hackathons and I was just leafing through that section of your book there.
00:55:04
Now, I want to pull out this.
00:55:05
If you don't mind, I want to quote your words.
00:55:08
You said hackathons and coding sprints are like hit.
00:55:12
H-I-I-H-I-T.
00:55:14
It is.
00:55:14
High intensity interval training.
00:55:16
High intensity interval training.
00:55:17
Okay.
00:55:17
Now we're going to get the athlete to come out.
00:55:19
That's right.
00:55:20
Hackathons and go in the ass like hit.
00:55:23
Like hit training for old source developers.
00:55:24
They provide time boxed and concentrated bursts of engagement that push participants to deliver impactful contributions within short time frames.
00:55:33
I think it's a great analogy because I've always struggled to understand like how you can do a hackathon at a company.
00:55:40
I get it for hey, come and it's sort of like because the most thing that they we struggle with as human beings, obviously, were human beings, right?
00:55:50
Is that we desire and thrive in connection, right?
00:55:53
You can't expect innovation or things to happen unless you connect with others.
00:55:57
And I think this whole part here on like internal events is enabling me inside of a company to get to know somebody else.
00:56:05
And even if I go and just meet one person or two people, now I've got more connection to the company.
00:56:12
I've got a deeper, deeper roots so to speak.
00:56:15
So my, my, I'm not leaving anytime soon.
00:56:19
If I feel connected, if I feel invited and then you take a thing like a hackathon, which I was like, how do you, how do you do that well to company?
00:56:26
Well, you're just sort of taking the inner source you may already have spun up and you're saying, go out, have fun, meet people, do fun things, innovate.
00:56:34
Correct.
00:56:35
Yeah.
00:56:36
No, I think when I was writing that chapter, I was thinking in terms of, what do I do in my daily life?
00:56:41
And Jared, thank you for the reference.
00:56:44
I've been a long time athlete.
00:56:46
Yeah.
00:56:47
And this morning, as a matter of fact, my workout was a hit workout.
00:56:52
And I'm a lifetime runner.
00:56:55
So I've been running for a very long time.
00:56:57
But in order to maintain that running, you can't keep running every day because that leads to a burnout.
00:57:03
Some people do and which is great for them.
00:57:05
But for me, I want to run, but then I want to also going to get equally strength trained so that I can be a more effective runner.
00:57:12
And if I bring that analogy, essentially, to open source, that's exactly what it is.
00:57:17
You know, in open source, new tools keep coming all the time.
00:57:21
And in order to understand those tools that high intensity interval training is what is required.
00:57:26
Because what I'm doing is for one hour, I am all in, I've cut down all abstract, you know, noises and distractions from my life.
00:57:36
I just want to learn this too.
00:57:37
I want to fail in that tool again and again and again.
00:57:40
So that I understand the way this works, the way it doesn't work.
00:57:44
And what are the boundary conditions, what are the normal happy path, all of that.
00:57:47
So once, because once I understand that, then I can go back to my normal running because then I can say, I'm stronger in this area and I can apply that skill into my day to day life.
00:57:57
So I think it's super important in that sense on taking that intense exercise.
00:58:03
It could be a workshop.
00:58:05
It could be a hackathon, whatever it is.
00:58:08
And in hackathon, again, as you called out, it's really a good way to engage with other people because no matter which business unit you are from,
00:58:18
you are sitting together for a common purpose.
00:58:21
And that pair programming concept is very extreme in that sense, right?
00:58:25
Because you say, aha, I'm thinking it this way.
00:58:28
And that diversity of thought immediately comes on to you.
00:58:31
And then you're able to make progress on that together.
00:58:34
Just the fact that how do I do a code review?
00:58:37
Or if somebody has done a code review on me, how do I accept that feedback?
00:58:42
Because, you know, don't take it personally.
00:58:45
Take it in the technical sense that, yeah, this is a really genuine feedback and accept it.
00:58:51
One of the things I talk about often is conflict resolution, right?
00:58:55
It's a big one in open source.
00:58:57
So often we get confused between personality conflict and task conflict that, oh, this person has given a feedback.
00:59:06
He lives in this part of the world.
00:59:07
And that's why he must be giving me this feedback.
00:59:09
Keep that aside.
00:59:11
It's not about personality conflict.
00:59:14
Take it.
00:59:15
It is a task conflict.
00:59:16
Learn that element and see how that makes you become an effective coder is what this is all should be about.
00:59:23
I feel like we couldn't have an allergy for for the fitness junkies out there.
00:59:28
Like you have hit classes like a hackathon, Pomodoro, that's like Tabata, you know, coding boot camp.
00:59:37
Well, I guess that's just a boot camp, although it already has an allergy, but we could have a bunch of things.
00:59:43
That's somebody coming in educating on what to eat.
00:59:46
There you go.
00:59:47
Yes, I mean, in the book, you know, I'm looking through the chapters here.
00:59:51
So for example, if I wrote this a while back, the hackathons are like it.
00:59:55
The guest speakers are like the mentorship and coaching that athletes receive from season x for guest speakers are.
01:00:04
You know, athletes build muscle memory through repetitive training and hone their skills through simulated game scenarios in practice.
01:00:12
That's your internal projects essentially.
01:00:14
And topical summits really deep into a particular topic.
01:00:20
And these are like-minded individuals experts that get together.
01:00:23
And these are more like, you know, hey, I'm going to a boot camp here.
01:00:27
And all sitting together really discussing that topic.
01:00:30
So I think, yes, in that sense, you're right, Jared.
01:00:33
It's very much like me to it.
01:00:35
I didn't know you already went through such a flushed out exercise.
01:00:38
But yeah, good good metaphors for sure.
01:00:41
For those interested in such things as fitness.
01:00:43
That's good for you.
01:00:44
That's good for you.
01:00:46
It's good for you.
01:00:48
Not for you, Adam.
01:00:48
Well, I like fitness.
01:00:50
I'm done with the fitness.
01:00:51
So Ruin, share more of your, your fitness bent like you said, you run, I'll give us some stats.
01:00:59
How long have you been running?
01:01:01
How far do you run?
01:01:02
How fast do you run?
01:01:04
Etc.
01:01:04
I've been running for 40 years for a long time.
01:01:08
I've done 35 half and full marathons around the world.
01:01:13
I think 2021 was my most running year.
01:01:19
I ran 2000 plus miles that year, which is an average of five and a half mile every day.
01:01:25
So that was the most extreme running year.
01:01:30
Now I'm on a much more easier scale.
01:01:33
It's about 10 K every four, five days a week.
01:01:38
And the other two is a lifting.
01:01:39
So I do work out every day.
01:01:40
The days I don't work out, I feel very, I'm not very myself.
01:01:45
So I work out every day.
01:01:48
This morning I had a seven o'clock meeting.
01:01:51
That means I got up at five, did my one hour workout.
01:01:54
I have a full pull up cage in my garage.
01:01:57
It was a full on 50 minute, 55 minute workout.
01:02:02
I pushed to the limit.
01:02:04
All sorts of stuff, you know, box jumps, balls, slams, bench press, pull up bars, all sorts of crazy stuff.
01:02:14
So today was my running because was raining.
01:02:16
But otherwise like yesterday was 10 K.
01:02:19
The day before was a 10 K.
01:02:21
And all of those stats are available on my Strava.
01:02:24
That's cool.
01:02:24
So you do that all by yourself or do you have a partner in crown?
01:02:28
Like you sometimes for me, I get more motivated when I have an accountability partner or something.
01:02:32
I'm all by myself.
01:02:33
You know, my schedules are been like very early in the morning.
01:02:37
And I got to go drop my son to school, get the breakfast ready for the for family in the morning.
01:02:43
So I do like really early in the morning.
01:02:45
Most of the days I'm getting up around five, five, 15.
01:02:49
You know, hit the road by five, 30 or so, do an hour workout and back in time for the first seven o'clock meeting.
01:02:58
Very impressive.
01:03:01
Yeah.
01:03:02
Very impressive.
01:03:02
I find if I have, I like an accountability partner, Jared, but I find if I have to coordinate with somebody else, it slows me down.
01:03:10
You know, I can't.
01:03:11
I got to spend an extra half hour or just some buffer in there to deal with the, hey, how you doing today?
01:03:18
Let's get going.
01:03:19
You almost need somebody who's like super strict.
01:03:22
Don't talk to me.
01:03:23
Okay.
01:03:24
Just don't ever see my name.
01:03:25
Just get to the work.
01:03:27
Yeah.
01:03:27
You want somebody who's in the same mindset as you are, which is like, neither one of us want to be here.
01:03:32
We know we should be.
01:03:33
I can't find that person.
01:03:35
I agree.
01:03:36
But I can't find that person.
01:03:38
Just for me, it's like, I'm going to get up early.
01:03:41
I have to have something to wear.
01:03:44
If I don't do it, I'm letting somebody else down because I'm fine with disappointing myself.
01:03:47
I do it all the time.
01:03:48
You know, but to disappoint someone else is like, just for me.
01:03:52
So I'll get up for them, but not for me.
01:03:54
You know, well, apparently you're self-motivated, I guess.
01:03:58
Yeah, one of the very exciting things we did last year was we went, I took the entire family to Kilimanjaro and we all hike the summit.
01:04:08
So my younger son and I are big into fitness, but I'd paint my older son and my wife, but I'm really, really grateful that we could actually summit Kilimanjaro.
01:04:20
And then literally in about a couple of weeks, we are again going on scattered trips, but we're going to Patagonia.
01:04:27
My son and my wife are going to Patagonia, and then I'll be joining my son on a beautiful expedition to Antarctica.
01:04:34
Wow.
01:04:35
So all of those really require a high level of fitness.
01:04:38
Absolutely.
01:04:38
We're going to do that.
01:04:40
So provide a comparison for us.
01:04:42
Difficulty and pain of some of the Mount Kilimanjaro or authoring a book.
01:04:50
Oh, authoring a book was easy.
01:04:52
I think it was very.
01:04:53
Really?
01:04:54
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:55
And my experience, see, frankly, in 2023, December is when I did all of my writing.
01:05:03
I pretty much did all of my writing within two weeks.
01:05:06
You just cranked it out.
01:05:08
Yeah, yeah, just two weeks.
01:05:09
All people say that writing a book is like the hardest thing they've ever done.
01:05:13
No, no, no.
01:05:14
I mean, this was my, this was my seventh book.
01:05:16
So I think I've done that for a while.
01:05:18
Oh, this is your seventh book.
01:05:19
Okay, so he has been experience.
01:05:21
I've been writing for a while.
01:05:23
And particularly for this book, I've always been practicing this.
01:05:29
So it was more about structuring my thought and putting it into a chapter format.
01:05:34
A lot of the heavy lifting, I would say, was really working with those 40 plus companies, 40 plus case studies, getting their management approval, PR approval, helping them build the use case and all that kind of refining their case studies.
01:05:48
That's where because the biggest heavy lifting was.
01:05:50
So that's where we were.
01:05:51
That's where it spent a lot of our time.
01:05:54
Kilimanjaro was easy as well as a matter of fact, because I run regularly, I lift heavily.
01:06:00
What's hard for you?
01:06:02
No, I think I take things as they come and just living in a peaceful, mindful manner.
01:06:10
I would say the only hard part was the last day where they woke us up at 10 in the night.
01:06:18
And we height all night to reach the summit at seven in the morning and then come back the same night, come back the same day.
01:06:28
So we started like 10 p.m.
01:06:30
We height up.
01:06:31
We came down, took an hour break for lunch and then hike further down at a lower elevation.
01:06:38
So it was about 5,000 feet up and about 6,000 feet down in the same day in a stretch of like about 16 hour hours.
01:06:48
And that was tiring.
01:06:49
I was like, we slept like a log after that.
01:06:52
Down sometimes harder than up, isn't it?
01:06:54
Down sometimes is actually down is always hard, you know, a lot more impact on your knees and the grade is pretty intense.
01:07:01
I think that took a bit of a toll on the body.
01:07:03
I feel like the down is almost more dangerous than the ups and downs because you can.
01:07:06
Correct.
01:07:07
There's a lot.
01:07:08
There's just you you almost have a faster pace because you're naturally being assisted by gravity.
01:07:12
But then you're like, you know, your knee buckles, your ankle twists or like you do that.
01:07:17
You're sure footing may not be sure.
01:07:19
But yeah.
01:07:20
Yeah.
01:07:20
And particularly because when we were going up, it was all during night, right?
01:07:25
Because we started at 11, 10 p.m.
01:07:27
We got up 11 p.m.
01:07:28
We started the hike and we didn't see sun until 637 in the morning.
01:07:32
So it was all hike during the night.
01:07:34
So with my headlamp, all I'm suing is the person, the shoes in front of me.
01:07:38
And I'm just chucking along as they're going through switchbacks, whatever.
01:07:42
So you just chuck, chuck, chuck.
01:07:44
Well, why did you start that late?
01:07:45
Did you want to see sunrise or?
01:07:47
Oh, the whole idea was to see sunrise at the summit.
01:07:49
That was one.
01:07:50
And the second reason was you don't want to stay at the summit because Kilimanjaro is what 19.3441 feet.
01:07:59
So at that elevation, usually afternoons are a bit tricky, the thunderstorms can appear.
01:08:04
So they want you to get back, you know, from a higher elevation before noon kicks in.
01:08:09
Gotcha.
01:08:11
I think going back to the book, one of the elements that we missed talking about is the relevance of open source foundations.
01:08:18
And that's pretty big actually.
01:08:20
You know, we can attached upon that topic earlier in the podcast, open source foundations like Apache, Eclipse, Linux foundation, of course,
01:08:31
is big.
01:08:32
And I am myself on the CNCF governing board and openness to self governing board.
01:08:37
And the chair for both the governing boards is very important that enterprises understand the relevance of joining these foundations.
01:08:45
And they're different tiers of membership, you know, because that joining those foundations really helps you understand all the good things that are happening in the foundation connects with similar minded leaders.
01:09:00
And again, becomes a hiring magnet essentially that okay.
01:09:04
Why Intel is joining over there, Intel really cares about the open source culture.
01:09:09
And other open source leaders get influenced that okay, I want to work at Intel and I want to build my open source career.
01:09:15
I remember when I joined Amazon, one of the first events we did, we got up on the reinvent stage and we say, hey, build your open source career at Amazon.
01:09:26
And this was back in 2017 and that got a lot of uploads because essentially Adrian Cockraft, my manager who hired me at that point of time, he was big into open source.
01:09:37
I've always been big into open source as well, you know, bringing two large open source leaders that are credible in the open source community and saying, hey, we're joining this.
01:09:47
I made, I wrote the six page for Amazon to join cloud native computing foundation.
01:09:52
And bringing that credibility and saying, hey, we're joining in there really goes a long way again, fostering that open source culture.
01:10:00
And glad you mentioned that because I think the foundations are really important.
01:10:03
It's always a grab bag of how you perceive membership, right?
01:10:07
Like you might say, oh, this is necessary because you got to support it in cost.
01:10:11
But then you think, well, is that paid a play?
01:10:13
Does that get me a seat at the board?
01:10:15
So to speak, does that give me access?
01:10:18
No one else gets?
01:10:19
And the usual answer, the obvious best answer is probably no.
01:10:22
Unless you're at the wrong foundation.
01:10:24
And that's just like a different foundation.
01:10:25
But you know, I think that's really important to bring that up.
01:10:29
But because I think that the foundations, they give the the neutrality, right?
01:10:34
They give the neutrality the formation.
01:10:36
And gosh, what what has happened with the Linux foundation of the last, you know, 15 years, I'd say it's just been tremendous.
01:10:44
I feel like there's some angles where it could be good or could be bad like centralized control or centralized organizations.
01:10:51
So to speak, but a large majority of the most important open source work is being done under the Linux foundation.
01:10:58
And that could be seen as a good thing.
01:11:00
And potentially is a bad thing for centrality, you know, in terms of centralizing things.
01:11:05
But I think it's mostly a good thing that we've got a worthy and organized body that can do that and have such great structurally they've proven to do it well over the many,
01:11:17
many years.
01:11:17
That's correct.
01:11:18
You know, I mean, different foundations operate very differently.
01:11:23
They pay a very critical role in terms of growing these open source projects.
01:11:30
They provide this central functionality like CICD and security audits, legal support, marketing support, event support.
01:11:38
So a lot of advantages of these open source foundations.
01:11:41
Some foundations give you a seat at the governing board depending upon what tier of membership you take.
01:11:47
Most of the foundations that I'm aware of, they usually have their technical oversight committee or technical advisory committee.
01:11:56
Those seats are all elected.
01:11:58
Those are not paid to play at all.
01:12:00
The maintainer ship again is again meritocracy.
01:12:03
So doocracy.
01:12:04
And how do you rise up to become a maintainer?
01:12:07
So in that sense, the administrative part and the technical parts are separate.
01:12:12
Like I'm on the governing board.
01:12:14
So it will be responsible for the administrative financial legal aspect of it.
01:12:19
But we have zero say in terms of what the technical roadmap of the foundation is going to look like.
01:12:23
And I like that separation of concerns in that sense.
01:12:26
But the if the technical folks need some budget support, then, for example, in open SSF, they come over to the board.
01:12:32
But we're also trying to create swim lanes over there where a certain level of funding is not required to be seeking permission of board every time because we want to create swim lanes where people can go faster on their own.
01:12:44
Can you tell us more about doocracy?
01:12:46
You just said doocracy.
01:12:48
What's this?
01:12:48
Yeah.
01:12:49
So think about the concept of you do things in open source.
01:12:55
And that really helps you rise up in open source.
01:12:59
And it really could start with just being a lurker on an open source project.
01:13:04
That okay, I'm just observing what's going on in the open source project.
01:13:06
Then occasionally jumping in that, okay, hey, I'm participating in the working group.
01:13:12
And then I'm starting to participate in the conversation or I'm jumping into the Slack channel.
01:13:17
And first, maybe I'm asking my questions, but then slowly, as again, more knowledge into the project, then I can start answering other questions.
01:13:27
Then maybe I jump into sort of the overall aspect of looking at other people code, reviewing people code.
01:13:34
Then maybe I jump into the element of, hey, I'm going to start contributing code.
01:13:39
And then I'm contributing more serious code.
01:13:43
Maybe I'm contributing deeper sections.
01:13:46
And that eventually that doocracy is that whole contribution ladder where you rise up from being a user to a contributor to a cometer to a maintainer and different projects at different hierarchy levels or different contribution ladder.
01:14:05
But that doocracy is the more you do into the project, the more you are known into the project and the higher your chances of getting a leadership position is.
01:14:14
It's not like, hey, Intel is part of the CNCF governing board.
01:14:19
And Intel must have a maintainer into the project.
01:14:22
No, it's purely purely doocracy.
01:14:24
You do the work into the project to rise up to that level of maintainer.
01:14:28
I like that doocracy.
01:14:30
How does one begin?
01:14:32
So we got a diverse listenership in this inner audience, I would say from individual contributor to leadership and everywhere in between.
01:14:40
If what is what is a good on rap?
01:14:42
I know you probably describe some versions of this in your book, but what are the best ways to begin this culture shift of inner source, open source,
01:14:52
organization, et cetera.
01:14:55
If it doesn't exist or if it maybe it's been tried before, but it hasn't been successful.
01:15:00
What are some ways to begin for our audience?
01:15:03
Yeah, one of the last chapters that sort of was looking at in the book is really about getting started on your culture change journey, right?
01:15:11
A lot of the times if you continue to do things in a certain way that you've always done and if you're not challenging the status quo because change is the only constant.
01:15:24
If you're not challenging the status quo, then that's the first thing you need to do that how does open source work for you?
01:15:31
You need to overcome your legacy mindset.
01:15:34
That's an important element.
01:15:35
There's a chapter in the book that talks about that part of it.
01:15:38
And then the book really gives you like a 10 step framework on how you can jump onto that cultural journey, right?
01:15:44
I mean, the diverse audience is great.
01:15:46
You know, having a top level executive sponsor because you need that somebody either at the executive level, top executive level that says, and it doesn't have to be like at the ELT level or the CEO must say that open source is our strategic direction.
01:16:03
It could be like, hey, this is a group where a lot of the open source technologies happen and that executive stands up that, yes, this is how I'm going to define the culture of my org and they I'm going to actively encourage allow them to contribute to open source.
01:16:18
This is what the incentive mechanism in the companies are.
01:16:22
Identify your stakeholders, not just within your team, but outside your team.
01:16:27
If there are other business units that are doing similar work, if there are folks in marketing that care about, if there are folks in recruitment that cares about because end of the day, they want to bring the top talent over there.
01:16:38
So how you can start connecting with that.
01:16:40
You need to have, I remember when I joined Apple, I think second or third day, I was having a call with somebody and my god, that person was screaming at me,
01:16:50
I submitted this full request so many weeks ago, it has not been approved yet.
01:16:55
It's been stuck into legal.
01:16:57
What can I do to help?
01:16:59
Though it was just a listening session, a venting session essentially that, you know, let that frustration come out and it's very important to just listen with it.
01:17:10
Again, we talked about task conflict personality conflict, think in terms of task conflict.
01:17:15
What is a task not getting done because that person has probably been trying really hard for many weeks, months and is not getting through.
01:17:22
Just understand the task, just get going on that.
01:17:25
Identify sort of the non core open source areas or maybe the core open source areas where you want to make a traction.
01:17:33
Define those walls within which you can do more open source or less open source.
01:17:39
I think that's an important area.
01:17:41
Create those working groups, for example, you know, at Intel we have several of those working groups where we teach on the best open source practices.
01:17:50
Anybody want to go to an open source project, they can come for education, enablement, Ospo does a good part of that, essentially.
01:17:57
Definitely having an open source program office goes a long way.
01:18:01
So I don't want to give away all the tips from the book.
01:18:03
So definitely encourage you.
01:18:05
Don't do that.
01:18:06
To take a look at the last chapter of the book that gives you that entire framework on how you can get started with it.
01:18:11
And there is a section in the book in that chapter which talks about sort of my journey on how I went about building that exactly in these different companies.
01:18:20
I was thinking as you're reading that, I will not give all the goods away, but at the same time, you know, will this be, you know, will this be the book that gets handed to someone when they say,
01:18:30
how does open source work?
01:18:31
How can I make it work for my company?
01:18:34
I hear about this thing called inner source.
01:18:36
What are the frameworks?
01:18:36
I feel like you've in two weeks.
01:18:38
As you said, you wrote this book quickly in two weeks and a lot of the work was case studies and external work and whatnot.
01:18:44
But I feel like you've, you've really organized a lot of your wisdom and thoughts over your decades of experience to really give us the initial steps,
01:18:55
if not the full on steps of what it takes to change the culture inside of companies, whether it's inner source or open source or whatever.
01:19:02
And so I think you've done a tremendous job.
01:19:04
I can't wait to read the entire book personally.
01:19:07
I've only lead through the table of contents and some of the stuff with you along this conversation here in my morning here.
01:19:15
But I think this, this is a great framework for when I can see.
01:19:18
I mean, I'm really proud of the work you've done here.
01:19:21
I appreciate this being in the world to give that guidance because I mean, crowdsourcing is the plain term, but open source is the future innovation.
01:19:30
I think actually, if I can lead through quickly, page two, I want to read this, if you don't mind, you might know what I'm not going to mention.
01:19:38
But on page two, you mentioned Mark Andreessen's really famous phrase when he said software is eating the world.
01:19:47
And then Jim Zemlen, the executive director, and I believe the founder of the Linux foundation, he said most of that software is open source.
01:19:56
And then of course, our very un-arrungupta says here in 2024, open source culture sustains innovation.
01:20:03
And I feel like what's happening in LLMs and AI, these models being open source, like we're seeing a massive change in accessibility to solve for accessibility to models,
01:20:14
accessibility to all these things.
01:20:16
And the innovation that we're seeing in our world, I mean, open source is one.
01:20:20
And that innovation, you've given a great blueprint in honor and for so many organizations to say, how can we really be a part of this or put the work for our company or to truly understand what it is.
01:20:31
So I really appreciate this work you've done here for the open source innovation that will come.
01:20:38
Thank you.
01:20:38
Thank you.
01:20:38
I'm really excited about how the book came about to be.
01:20:42
I really hope this book is a fire starter for people who want to jump on to their journey, kickstart their journey.
01:20:48
Or if you are far along in your journey, look at those case studies and see what other fun things you can find out.
01:20:55
Anything left we have not asked you, I know that you've got a lot to share.
01:20:58
Have you shared it all?
01:20:59
What's left?
01:21:00
You can even plug something if you wanted to.
01:21:04
No, I think it's we're good.
01:21:05
I think in terms of everything around the book we have talked about it, open source culture is such an interesting topic and I've been working on this for such a long time that every time you talk a new story comes out,
01:21:20
a new perspective comes out.
01:21:22
And I would like people to think about would you go to a potluck and not take a dish of your own?
01:21:31
Would you go to a communal garden and just eat all the vegetables and not plant your own vegetable?
01:21:40
So that's why open source is like a potluck or a communal garden.
01:21:44
Contribute, make it sustain for yourself and for others and that's the critical element.
01:21:52
A perfect note to end on.
01:21:53
Thanks for it.
01:21:54
Thank you so much for having me here.
01:21:55
Well, those are wise words.
01:21:59
Bring a side, a plant, some vegetables, open source is for everyone and it thrives when it includes everyone.
01:22:07
And if you didn't know, this full-length episode is now on YouTube.
01:22:11
We're shipping all of our shows full length to YouTube so you can enjoy them.
01:22:16
Chapters, visuals, all the fun things.
01:22:19
But let me ask you a question.
01:22:21
The hypothetical question, of course.
01:22:23
If the change log wasn't here tomorrow, if you couldn't listen to any more episodes of this show, ever again, how would you feel?
01:22:32
Would you be sad, devastated, I rate, happy, you tell us.
01:22:37
Emalous at editors@changelaw.com because we want to know, we're really curious to see if what we do here impacts your life so much that you would be sad forever or happy forever if we didn't produce any more shows.
01:22:52
Again, just a hypothetical.
01:22:55
Seriously, it's just a question.
01:22:56
But hey, if you're a loyal fan, someone who loves us dearly, someone who enjoys this show, consider joining Change All Plus Plus.
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Well, a big thank you to our friends over at Temporal, Temporal.io, our friends at AugmentCode, AugmentCode.com.
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Okay, this show's done.
01:23:58
We'll see you on Friday.
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01:24:09
♪ In I ♪
