What is the future of DEI? Does it have at least some laudable goals, and are there better ways to achieve them? What do the American people really want when it comes to tolerance, inclusion, and discrimination law? The Manhattan Institute’s Robert VerBruggen discusses all these questions and more with host James Patterson in this episode of the Law & Liberty Podcast.

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“Fight Bias and Legalize Meritocracy,” by Robert VerBruggen

Transcript

James Patterson (00:06 ):

Welcome to the Law & Liberty Podcast. I’m your host, James Patterson. Law & Liberty is an online magazine featuring serious commentary on law, policy, books, and culture, and formed by a commitment to a society of free and responsible people living under the rule of law. Law & Liberty and this podcast are published by Liberty Fund.

Hello and welcome to the Law & Liberty Podcast. I’m your host, James Patterson, contributing editor to Law & Liberty. Our guest today is Mr. Robert VerBruggen. He is a fellow at Manhattan Institute, where he provides policy research, writes for City Journal, and contributes to special projects and initiatives in the president’s office. And he has served as a deputy managing editor at National Review, managing editor at the American Conservative, and editor at RealClear Policy. And finally, as an assistant book editor at the Washington Times, he publishes on a number of issues and was the 2005 winner of the Chicago Headline Club Peter Lisagor Award. That’s great. And today we’ll be talking about his study at Manhattan Institute titled, “Fight Bias and Legalized Meritocracy, A Unifying Vision for Anti-Discrimination Law.” Mr. VerBruggen, welcome to the Law & Liberty Podcast.

Robert VerBruggen (01:38 ):

Great to be here.

James Patterson (01:39 ):

Let me give you two accounts of DEI and you tell me where they go wrong and maybe what half-truths they get. So the first is that DEI, which for those six or seven people listening to this podcast who don’t know, stands for diversity, equity, and inclusion, is mandatory for all hiring practices because of the permanently structured white supremacy in American institutions. And without it, we would experience the same levels of discrimination found, say in Jim Crow America. That’s the first version of the story, usually understood to be on the left. And the second version of the story is that DEI policies are a form of counter-discrimination designed to elevate minorities, otherwise incapable of achieving excellence in a competitive environment, and thereby exposing people to all kinds of forms of incompetence. These are the two extremes. It’s more of the right-wing extreme, and your study seems to say, look, let’s take this much more seriously and look at the evidence. What does the evidence tell us about these two positions?

Robert VerBruggen (02:54 ):

Well, sure, I think the beautiful and ugly thing about the term DEI is that it’s very vague. It can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I think some people really do mean it just to refer to the concept of being open to people, being inclusive, being willing to hire and consider candidates from all different walks of life, and making efforts to make sure that you’re not overlooking people because of where they come from or who they are. And that’s, of course, entirely laudable, but I think it’s also a euphemism for, as you might say, counter-discrimination, reverse discrimination, whatever you want to call that, discrimination against sort of overrepresented groups or higher performing groups in an effort to hit the correct numbers that you think that a company or a student body should have. And I think that that’s where it runs into problems legally. I think there’s been a lot that’s been going on under the banner of DEI that has always been illegal, and I think that there’s a lot of gray area as well that as what the Trump administration is doing plays out. And as courts hear more of these cases, I think we’re going to have to resolve a lot of that gray area in terms of what exactly is allowed and what is not allowed in these sorts of areas.

James Patterson (04:06 ):

So where does the term DEI, or diversity, equity, and inclusion, come from? Does it have the same provenance as something like affirmative action? Does it grow out of affirmative action, or is it its own thing?

Robert VerBruggen (04:19 ):

I mean, I think it’s largely used in the same context as affirmative action. We talk about DEI and wokeness. These are sort of new terms or they’re new debates that we’re having, but in a lot of ways, they really just echo the debates about racial preferences and affirmative action that we’ve been having for 50 years or more. So I think in a lot of ways, they refer to ways of trying to diversify a company or a student body typically by taking race into account. And that’s also a problem that we have with the term affirmative action. The original use of it is just take affirmative action to make sure that you’re being fair and not discriminating by race. And it ends up being a euphemism for discriminating by race to get the numbers that you’re trying to get. And I think it’s a similar sort of thing with DEI where it’s just vague enough that a lot of people hear it and think, oh, that sounds nice, but it also turns out to be sort of a cover for some discriminatory and often illegal behavior.

James Patterson (05:07 ):

So the policy of DEI, at least as I understand it, is kind of a strange thing to emerge, given that as you put in your study, it actually has its origins originally in an attempt to establish a colorblind law. So how is it that we go from the colorblind objectives of, say, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 into at least as it’s been abused, a DEI that creates preferences almost to the point of quotas?

Robert VerBruggen (05:45 ):

Yeah. What the original civil rights laws reflected was sort of a consensus in America at that time that things had gone very, very badly under Jim Crow and it was not fair for African Americans to be treated the way they’re being treated and to basically ban discrimination by race. And these were written in very colorblind terms, and it was not only discrimination against certain groups was illegal, and it was okay to discriminate against other groups. It was just colorblind language that said, you’re not allowed to discriminate. But there’s always been a vocal minority in the US, and this is a debate that plenty of other countries have, as well, something Thomas Sowell has written a lot about, there’s always the vocal minority that says, no, we should be making more affirmative efforts. We should be discriminating in favor of the population that’s been discriminated against in the past. And that has very rarely actually been written into the law. It’s been very rare that Congress has put colorblind language into the statute books, but what’s been more common to happen is that courts and executive agencies blur the lines of the law and open the door that you see that with affirmative action in higher education. You see that with affirmative action plans in hiring where essentially courts and executive agencies blessed behavior that was pretty clearly not supposed to be happening under the Civil Rights Act.

James Patterson (07:01 ):

So let’s look at some of those laws, or at least what we might consider the sort of the big moments in anti-discrimination. What are they, and maybe how did judicial rulings or bureaucratic enforcement change?

Robert VerBruggen (07:20 ):

One of the bigger examples is affirmative action in higher education. The text of the Civil Rights Act