<figure class="alignleft size-full is-resized"></figure>

In this episode of Hebrew Voices #219 - Halakhic Purist Rabbi: Part 1, Nehemia brings on “Halakhic purist” Rabbi Asher Meza to discuss the distinction between Jewish law and traditional folklore and how true Rabbinic ordination ended in the Mishnaic period, in some respect making all modern Rabbis “fake.”

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Rabbi Asher Meza: When these stories were written, if you weren’t already sensitized by the Torah of Moses, you were essentially a pagan. And pagan back then was almost synonymous with unethical barbarian. So, it was easy to fall into the trap of seeing the world as us versus them. It’s a little hard to understand now, with the rise of Islam and Christianity, which are essentially offshoots of, like, of the Torah’s ethical system, and make the same claim. A Gentile back then wasn’t as civilized as a Gentile that has been sensitized by Torah values, which is what we have today.

—

Nehemia: Shalom and welcome to Hebrew Voices. I’m here today with Rabbi Asher Meza. He works in Jewish outreach; he’s a Bible enthusiast and a self-described halakhic purist. He’s the founder of Torah Judaism International. Shalom, Asher. How are you doing?

Asher: Hi, hi. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Nehemia.

Nehemia: Well, Asher, I like putting labels on people because it makes me feel more secure in myself. I like to put people in a box. But not everybody fits in a box, right? I’m saying that half-jokingly. What box can we put you in? Are you an Orthodox Jew? Are you… like, what’s the box? Just like, off the bat, so people can kind of have a shorthand of where you’re coming from.

Asher: I think people in the Haredi community cringe every time they have to describe themselves as Orthodox. Just because I think, traditionally, that’s a role invented, or a title invented, by Reform, to in some way, make us look backward and primitive. So, I’m Orthodox, I guess. I’m an observant Jew. I keep Jewish law. I believe in what we now call Oral Law; I believe in the written law. So, I think that checks all the boxes for Orthodoxy, minus Kabbalah. But I guess nowadays you don’t have to be Orthodox to accept Kabbalah.

Nehemia: I’m actually presenting in a conference in a couple of weeks on a rabbi named Shadal. Rabbi Samuel David Luzzatto, who was in Italy in the early 1800s, and he was an Orthodox rabbi, and he wrote an entire book against Kabbalah.

Asher: One hundred percent. A big rationalist, big student of the Rambam. Yes.

Nehemia: Yeah. That was one of his focuses, that the Kabbalah is pseudepigraphical. That it wasn’t really written by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, because it has all these anachronisms. So, you could be anti-Kabbalah, or not. Let’s say, maybe a Kabbalah minimalist? What would you say? So, talk about Kabbalah… or maybe… let’s not start with Kabbalah. Look, I’ve seen videos of you where you travel to India and stuff like that, and tell people about… what does it mean that you’re in Jewish outreach? What did it mean in the past? And what does it mean today?

Asher: We’re global, baby! So, from that perspective, my organization is called Torah Judaism International. If someone really wanted to confront actual idolatry, le’maisa, what’s done today? Where else would you want to go but India? That being said, the majority of our students there are former Christians than actual Hindus. But yeah, we try to kind of fill a void. The state of Israel has outlawed conversions in 98% of the world, which includes Latin America, Africa, India. That means if anyone from that part of the world wants to become Jewish, they would have to travel to Israel. So, what are you left with? With essentially thousands of people who’ve been living like Torah observant Jews for decades, who get ridiculed by Israelis when they go to India. That’s the only reason why there’s a Chabad there, to cater to Israelis. They’re called Gentiles who are, in some way, misappropriating Torah.

So, my organization fundraises in their behalf. We’ve taken, so far, two sifrei Torah. We’ve built mikvahs. We’ve taken tefillin, books of all sorts, and we converted them, absolutely free of charge, from their perspective. I mean, it costs us money, but we fund raise for that. And that’s what we try to do all over the world. We’ve done it in Ecuador; we’ve done it in parts of Europe. Really to sort of just fill that void. We really don’t like getting involved in conversions, but people who have no other option, right? You know, because no one says, you know, “Don’t go. I’ll go.” Right? I mean, from that perspective, I’ll step in and perform a conversion. According to Jewish law, anyone could perform a conversion. I am a rabbi, but you don’t need to be a rabbi to perform a conversion. And that’s how we found ourselves in India.

Nehemia: So, there’s a lot to unpack here. You mentioned you brought them Torah scrolls and phylacteries… I’m just translating here, and you built a mikvah for them, which is for ritual immersion. I suppose, particularly for women, or in general as well. Meaning, like practically, I suppose it’s for the women. Or is it for the conversion specifically, you built the mikvah?

Asher: Well, it’s for both. It’s for the conversions.

Nehemia: Okay.

Asher: I mean, a mikvah, for it to be kosher for conversion, it has to be, like, kosher for women.

Nehemia: Okay. All right. And I say… well, okay, let’s not get into those details. So, let me ask this. So, wow, this is… So, what do you mean that the state of Israel has outlawed conversions? If there’s a Jewish community in India, what is the state of Israel… How could they have any say in the matter, right? I mean, they don’t have sovereignty over India. So, explain that. What does that mean?

Asher: Well, these aren’t Jewish communities by heritage or pedigree. These are people who’ve come to the realization that they no longer want to be Christian or Hindu or Muslim, and they’ve embraced Judaism as a religion. Not B’nei Menashe or any other group that was in some way imported into Israel. So, this is one reason organizations in Israel really don’t want to deal with them. Like, there’s an organization called Kulanu that sort of helps them out a little bit if they remain Noahides. So, there’s many Israeli organizations that will help…