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Chuck sits down with Ryan Johnson, the founder and visionary behind Culdesac Tempe, the first car-free neighborhood built from scratch in the U.S. They discuss the realities of living in and developing a community like Culdesac, from transportation costs to working with local government. Ryan explains how they maintain walkability in an Arizona desert, how they successfully nurture small businesses, and how they encourage people to embrace co-ownership of the community.

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  Chuck Marohn 0:00

  Hey, everybody. This is Chuck Marohn. Welcome back to the Strong Towns podcast. Culdesac, the development in Tempe, Arizona, is described as the first car free neighborhood built from scratch in the US, I have to say, a place that I have not been, a place that I have found intriguing from a number of ways. And finally, I think, after, you know, not his fault, but probably dragging feet on our part, I have the opportunity now to chat with the founder and visionary behind this project, Ryan Johnson from Culdesac. Welcome to the Strong Towns podcast.

  Ryan Johnson 0:47

  Exciting to be on.

  Chuck Marohn 0:49

  It's exciting to have you. You've done something that has a lot of people talking. And as I was telling you, you know, off air, my daughter is now going to go to the University of Arizona in the fall. So I'm I have had Culdesac on my list of places to explore for a long time, and I feel like I'm gonna have a few more opportunities to be I mean, certainly Tucson is closer to you than than Brainerd, Minnesota, is. So I'm hoping to get there. Here's the big question that I have for you that I want to start with. Walk me through the first meeting that you had with someone where you were pitching this, not like a Pal or a friend, where you're like, you know, throwing ideas around, but like, you know, I put on a tie or whatever, I dressed up, and I went to a meeting and I was going to pitch someone seriously on this idea. What, what was your thought going in and how did that meeting go?

  Ryan Johnson 1:43

  Early on, we got laughed out of the room quite a bit. People said you're not going to get entitlements, and the demand is not going to be there. And what do you mean that driverless cars are about to change everything? They're not even going to happen at all for many decades. And so that was always an uphill battle, and we had to find the right audience and also come prepared with the the right plan that people could get behind and believe in.

  Chuck Marohn 2:13

  You brought up driverless cars, and I feel like part of the idea of Culdesac as a car-free place is maybe an error or a ascription error from people who have not been there, who don't understand it. You're not saying that the people who live there never get into a car. We're saying that the place is not designed to accommodate individuals who own cars, are going to park cars there, all that. Describe the nuance of what car free means.

  Ryan Johnson 2:42

  Yeah, we say we're the first car-free neighborhood built from scratch in the US, and each word of that sentence matters. This is not about not using cars at all. In a place like Phoenix, which is the heart of sprawl in many ways, we can't retrofit the full city, and so part of the reason this works is that residents use a portfolio of transportation options, and they can use the best mode for a given trip. And the light rail is the most popular mode, but also there's Lyft and there's Waymo, and there's electric bikes and electric scooters and hourly car rentals. And different ways of getting around work better for those different trips, but it's important to utilize all of those.

  Chuck Marohn 3:28

  So if I live in Culdesac, I'm gonna take the light rail sometimes. I'm gonna walksometimes. I'm gonna get on a scooter sometimes. I'm going to jump in a Uber Lyft, a Waymo sometimes, I'm trying to describe a life that would be relatable to people because I think a lot of people, when they think car free, they think like, well, that would be impossible given my circumstances. Is it the transportation options that make this a possibility? What is it that makes this viable?

  Ryan Johnson 4:03

  We're entering a new era where these emerging transportation technologies- So the type of neighborhoods that we're building, these are walkable neighborhoods. These look like the neighborhoods that we built 100 plus years ago. And it's not a coincidence that those neighborhoods are what's in demand. It's where people want to live. And we're building neighborhoods like that again, but we're using modern technology. And there's been big evolution in transportation technology in the last decade, or the last couple decades, and there's a lot more ahead as well, where now you can open up your phone, press a button, and the driver will come pick you up and take you somewhere conveniently and at low cost. There's driverless cars that are going to -- Avride hail specifically -- that's about to do that, and at a much lower price point and in a far safer way, that's going to make it easier to get from place to place. Our residents, on average, spend several hundred less than the average American. Average American spends over $1,000 a month on the vehicle now, and the average price of a new car is about $48,000 and that creates a lot of budget for more housing, and that creates a lot of budget for more mobility services. So that's why this works in this way now.

  Chuck Marohn 5:18

  I was looking at some of the things that have been written about you and your development and written about the ideas that