In the second part of Holly's deep dive with Meg Josephson, they shift from understanding fawning to working with it. Continuing their exploration of Meg's book "Are You Mad At Me?", the conversation explores perfectionism as a protective mechanism, "secondhand fawning" through others, and the core shame beliefs that drive these patterns. Meg explains how healing happens through secure relationships and offers a compassionate framework for understanding these survival mechanisms. Holly reflects on how recognizing her fawn response has been foundational to her healing journey.

Topics Covered

The fawn trauma response and what it looks like; The six fawn archetypes (peacekeeper, caretaker, perfectionist, performer, chameleon, lone wolf); Complex relational trauma vs. single-incident trauma; How fawning develops as a survival mechanism in volatile homes; The intersection of fawning with ADHD and neurodivergence; Why digital communication amplifies "are you mad at me?" feelings; Chronic dysregulation and nervous system impacts; The connection between fawning and masking behaviors; Hypervigilance and external validation-seeking; How fawning shows up in romantic relationships.

Meg Josephson Bio

Meg Josephson is a licensed therapist, meditation teacher, and author of "Are You Mad at Me? A Guide to Caring Less About What People Think." She integrates mindfulness-based practices with trauma-informed therapy, specializing in the fawn trauma response. After recognizing her own chronic hypervigilance patterns in her twenties, she discovered meditation during concussion recovery and pursued graduate training in therapy. Her work focuses on complex relational trauma and helping clients develop self-compassion for protective patterns that no longer serve them.

Meg’s new book Are You Mad At Me? Is out now. She writes the Substack Peace of Mind. You can follow Meg on Instagram and TikTok.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producers: Holly Whitaker, Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Transcript available on patreon

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