In 1776 Thomas Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence, kick-starting the movement against British rule and putting in place the foundations for democracy in what became the United States of America. But he was a man of contradictions. He argued passionately against slavery but was a slave-owner. He had a relationship with an enslaved woman, Sally Hemings which may have started in France when she was just fourteen. He became the third President of the United States, and he loved philosophy, nature and wine.

Jimmy Wales first-learned of Jefferson and the founding fathers when he was in school. The founder of Wikipedia fell in love with Encyclopaedias when his Mother bought a set from a travelling salesman. Jimmy's fascinated by Jefferson's political principles and intrigued by his many contradictions, and with the help of Kathleen Burk they discuss Jefferson's political legacy and how his attitudes to slavery are impacting on how he's seen today.

Presenter: Matthew Parris
Guest: Jimmy Wales
Guest expert: Kathleen Burk, Professor Emerita of Modern and Contemporary History at University College London
Producer: Toby Field for BBC Audio Bristol