As countries all over the world, but particularly liberal democracies in the West, turn themselves inside out over the issue of migration and in the process empowering the far right, it was my great pleasure to speak to one of the few people who actually is willing to give calm, clear facts on this subject. Zoe Gardner is rightly a prominent figure in media and public debates on migration, but is almost the only person willing to stand up and be counted with some humane, calm and utterly essential facts on the matter. It was such a privilege to get her on the podcast and I hope you get as much from the conversation as I did.

You can find Zoe's work online in all the usual places including https://bsky.app/profile/zoejardiniere.bsky.social

Check out our Bookshop.org affiliate site behindthelines and please sign up for my substack at arthursnell.substack.com and/or follow me on Bluesky

@snellarthur.bsky.social. You can sometimes find me on other podcasts - most often Disorder which I am involved with in partnership with RUSI, the Royal United Services Institute, the world's oldest think tank.

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