Discover
Cool People Who Did Cool StuffPart Four: The Haitian Revolution: The Most Successful Revolt in the Americas
Cool People Who Did Cool StuffPart Four: The Haitian Revolution: The Most Successful Revolt in the Americas
Part Four: The Haitian Revolution: The Most Successful Revolt in the Americas
Update: 2025-02-12
Share
Description
Margaret finishes talking with Prop about how the people of Haiti destroyed a slave empire.
Sources:
https://www.newsweek.com/poland-nationalism-new-york-haiti-slave-rebellion-revolution-1382388
A Secret among the Blacks: Slave Resistance before the Haitian Revolution, John D. Garrigus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VofAQYxcHHY
https://catholiceducation.org/en/faith-and-character/king-afonso-i-of-kongo12-06-17.html
https://ecda.northeastern.edu/makandal-knowledge/
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/ideology/pdf/F6.2.pdf
https://ecda.northeastern.edu/makandal-knowledge/
https://www.afrikaiswoke.com/makandal-the-black-messiah/
https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2011/01/slavery-in-the-french-colonies/
https://haitidoi.com/2013/03/18/1804-census-gros-morne-haiti/
https://haitidoi.com/2016/01/26/dessalines-reader-1-april-1804-2/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41603-019-00071-5
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Comments
Top Podcasts
The Best New Comedy Podcast Right Now – June 2024The Best News Podcast Right Now – June 2024The Best New Business Podcast Right Now – June 2024The Best New Sports Podcast Right Now – June 2024The Best New True Crime Podcast Right Now – June 2024The Best New Joe Rogan Experience Podcast Right Now – June 20The Best New Dan Bongino Show Podcast Right Now – June 20The Best New Mark Levin Podcast – June 2024
In Channel
Download from Google Play
Download from App Store
United States00:00
00:00
1.0x
0.5x
0.8x
1.0x
1.25x
1.5x
2.0x
3.0x
Sleep Timer
Off
End of Episode
5 Minutes
10 Minutes
15 Minutes
30 Minutes
45 Minutes
60 Minutes
120 Minutes
Transcript
00:00:00
- What would you do if mysterious drones appeared over your hometown?
00:00:04
I started asking questions.
00:00:06
- What do you remember happening on that night of December 16th?
00:00:10
- It actually rotated around our house, looking as if it was peering in each window of our home.
00:00:16
- I'm Gabe Lenners.
00:00:17
From Imagine, I Heart Podcasts and Lenners Entertainment.
00:00:22
Listen to Obscuraum, Invasion of the Drums, wherever you get your favorite podcast.
00:00:30
- Hey, it's Alec Baldwin.
00:00:32
This past season on my podcast, Here's the Thing.
00:00:36
I spoke with more actors, musicians, policymakers, and so many other fascinating people, like writer and actor, Dan Acroid.
00:00:46
- I love writing more than anything.
00:00:47
You're left alone, you know, you do three hours in the morning, you write three hours in the afternoon, go pick up a kid from school, then write at night, and after nine hours, you come out with seven pages, and then you're moving on.
00:00:58
- Listen to Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:07
- The OGs of Uncensored Motherhood are back and better than ever.
00:01:11
- I'm Erica, and I'm Meala, and we're the hosts of the Good Mom's Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect podcast network every Wednesday.
00:01:18
- Yeah, we're moms, but not your mommy.
00:01:21
Historically, men talk too much.
00:01:23
- And women have quietly listened.
00:01:24
And all that stops here.
00:01:26
If you like Whitty Women, then this is your choice.
00:01:28
Listen to The Good Mom's Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday, on the Black Effect podcast network, the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go to find your podcast.
00:01:37
- Calling all Yellowstone fans.
00:01:41
- Let's go to work.
00:01:42
- Join Bobby Bones on the official Yellowstone podcast for exclusive cast interviews behind the scenes insights and a deep dive into the themes that have made Yellowstone a cultural phenomenon.
00:01:56
- Our family legacy is this ranch.
00:01:58
- Well, I protect it with my life.
00:02:00
- Listen to the official Yellowstone podcast now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:02:08
- Calls are media.
00:02:11
- Hello, and welcome to Co-People Who Did Cool Stuff.
00:02:15
Special, whoops, all context edition, because we are on part four of our four-parter and we're finally about to get to the Haitian Revolution.
00:02:22
- Whoops, all context.
00:02:24
- I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy.
00:02:25
(laughs)
00:02:26
And my guest today is Prop.
00:02:28
- We are the only people on Cool Zone that really appreciates that reference.
00:02:34
(laughs)
00:02:37
- I actually can't even remember what it is, but I was thinking I was like, I think this dates me.
00:02:40
- It's from the serial.
00:02:41
It's Lucky Charms.
00:02:43
- Oh shit, yeah, yeah.
00:02:45
- When they did the whoops, all marshmallows.
00:02:46
- Yeah.
00:02:47
I was thinking about before I record.
00:02:50
I was like, "Why is this a thing in my head?"
00:02:51
I think no one younger than me has less than their head.
00:02:53
- Exactly, that's why I was like, we're the only ones that appreciate it.
00:02:55
That was when they did the all marshmallows.
00:02:58
- Yeah.
00:02:58
- Yeah.
00:02:58
- Which, how was that serial number one?
00:03:01
- Yeah, I would try it once.
00:03:04
That's what I would do.
00:03:06
- Yeah, I did, to obtain a way in a world my black mama would have bought the name way in a world she bought that for us.
00:03:11
(laughs)
00:03:11
- You know, I didn't get Lucky Charms as a kid.
00:03:14
- No, not at all, yeah.
00:03:15
- My mom would take honey nut Cheerios and regular Cheerios and put them in a Tupperware 50/50.
00:03:21
So I could have like almost honey nut.
00:03:23
- Your mom and my mom were clearly best friends.
00:03:25
- Yeah.
00:03:27
- Clearly best friends.
00:03:28
Yeah, they read the same book fairly.
00:03:30
- You know, that's probably about as much sugar as I should have in my serial number.
00:03:35
- Exactly, that's the truth.
00:03:37
- Yeah.
00:03:38
- Well, we don't have a producer today, but I mean, we do actually have a producer, just not on Mike.
00:03:43
Our producer is Sophie.
00:03:44
- Yeah.
00:03:45
- Our audio engineer is Rory.
00:03:46
Hi, Rory.
00:03:47
- Yeah.
00:03:48
- And our theme music was written by a man and we are on part four of the Haitian Revolution, the part with the revolution in it.
00:03:55
The more I read about the Haitian Revolution, the more I realize I will never know everything about the Haitian Revolution.
00:04:02
Anyone could easily dedicate their entire career to understanding it.
00:04:05
- Correct.
00:04:06
- On my shelf, I've got at least two books that I barely touched on the subject.
00:04:09
Like I started skimming them and then being like, this is an, I don't know if it's time.
00:04:13
One is the Haitian Revolution's influence on the intellectual tradition of the West.
00:04:16
It's like, sheesh.
00:04:18
I know, right?
00:04:19
Actually, one of the books that were like, did a good job of like, I've read some of it.
00:04:22
It broke down the like, hey, this wasn't enlightenment came to enslaved people.
00:04:29
Haiti and the Haitian Revolution exported ideas of what Liberty means, you know?
00:04:34
- Yeah.
00:04:35
- That's good.
00:04:36
- And then another one that I didn't get to touch at all was literally just how it compares to Cuba.
00:04:41
And I'm like, oh yeah.
00:04:42
- Oh.
00:04:43
- There's so much.
00:04:44
That's the thing about trying to learn history.
00:04:46
- Yeah.
00:04:46
- It's infinite.
00:04:47
- Yeah.
00:04:48
- Everything is everything that already happened.
00:04:51
- Yeah.
00:04:52
- That's a lot of stuff.
00:04:54
- And while you're learning it more of it happens.
00:04:56
- And while we're here, yeah.
00:04:58
- Yeah.
00:04:59
And then you learn more about like some of the books that like changed the way that everyone thinks about the Haitian Revolution came out in 2023.
00:05:05
You know?
00:05:06
- Yeah.
00:05:07
- Like.
00:05:08
- Yeah.
00:05:08
- And all this history is argued about, I don't feel 100% certain about the parts that I'm gonna talk about, but it is the best that I was able to come up with.
00:05:16
On August 14th, 1791, there was a meeting in the woods.
00:05:21
For years, decades and centuries enslaved people on the island, as well as Maroon's, had been building these communication networks that were robust and powerful.
00:05:32
And they were waiting for a purpose.
00:05:33
I mean, they had a purpose.
00:05:34
They're used for marooning and all kinds of things.
00:05:38
But it's almost like they spent hundreds of years building this thing and then it got to work.
00:05:43
The French Revolution, the labor strikes, the increasing repression by the white supremacists, the sudden interest in revolution from the free people of color all came together to give the communication networks this purpose.
00:05:57
And so the first meeting, probably, was in the woods, the Le Noemaw, the Mesae Sugar Plantation.
00:06:03
To whenever I pronounce French, I just start dropping letters and hope for the best.
00:06:08
- It sounded good to me.
00:06:09
- Yeah, thank you.
00:06:10
Yeah, thank you.
00:06:11
- Yeah.
00:06:11
- I spent a month in France once.
00:06:12
I clearly know-- - Oh, you got it then.
00:06:14
- I'm out of order baguettes.
00:06:16
That's all I wanted to do.
00:06:17
- Jesui, ooh, yeah.
00:06:18
- That's all I got.
00:06:19
- Un baguette, so who play?
00:06:20
- Yeah.
00:06:21
- Jennifer Paola, France say.
00:06:23
I can say a baguette, please.
00:06:25
And I don't speak French.
00:06:26
- There it is.
00:06:27
- But everyone there loved me.
00:06:29
People in France don't like it when you don't speak French.
00:06:32
- There's a couple of languages that, like, I'm not saying words, but I feel like I can, I can do the accent well.
00:06:38
Like that's like a bit with like Conan O'Brien where it's like, he doesn't speak German, but he sounds like he does.
00:06:43
So, like, for me, that's French where I'm just like, Jesui, Avicore.
00:06:49
(speaking in foreign language)
00:06:51
Like, I'm like, I don't, yeah, say anything.
00:06:54
It just sounds French.
00:06:56
- Yeah, exactly.
00:06:57
- Yeah.
00:06:58
- I've learned about 10 words in every language where I've been in the country of, you know?
00:07:05
I learned how to say like, I don't speak this language.
00:07:08
Hello, goodbye.
00:07:09
Thank you, fuck off.
00:07:11
- Yeah.
00:07:12
- Beer.
00:07:13
- Beer, yup.
00:07:14
- But, all these people came together in the woods at the Sugar Plantation.
00:07:19
200 drivers and other skilled enslaved workers gathered together.
00:07:23
And they all together represented thousands of people.
00:07:26
This is a spokesperson council, which is one of the most important pieces of communication technology and existence.
00:07:32
Disprote people can come together to talk about shit and get things done by each group sending a spokesperson to the spokesperson council.
00:07:40
- Okay.
00:07:41
- And so they got together and they were like, well, we should have a revolution.
00:07:44
And then they're like, yeah, we should have a revolution.
00:07:47
- We should go ahead and do it.
00:07:49
- At this meeting, someone announced that the king had given enslaved people three days off a week, but the owners were hiding that.
00:07:56
And this isn't true, but it-- - Okay.
00:07:59
- One, it's not the first time on this show that even recently that we've talked about in slave people using rumors of like, well, the king wouldn't allow this in order to spur people into action.
00:08:08
- What do you call him?
00:08:10
- Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:08:12
- And also, it's like, the specifics aren't true, but the idea that the king is actually kind of trying to be like a little bit more moderate towards the enslaved people.
00:08:22
And then the owners aren't allowing it.
00:08:24
That part is true.
00:08:26
- Yes, it is, yeah.
00:08:28
- And so they announced the revolution and words spread across the entire north of the country.
00:08:33
The little we know about this first meeting comes from the confessions of one of the captured revolutionaries because there was this 18 year old driver and he was like, all right, the revolution's on.
00:08:43
And he's 18.
00:08:44
So he just goes and says fire to a plantation.
00:08:46
- We good, we good.
00:08:48
- Yeah.
00:08:49
- Go, we're good.
00:08:49
It's time, okay, cool.
00:08:50
- Yeah.
00:08:51
- Yeah.
00:08:52
- And it's all right in here, you.
00:08:53
(laughing)
00:08:55
What'd you say?
00:08:56
Oh, it's already burnt now.
00:08:57
- Yeah, yeah.
00:08:59
- And so he gets caught and he confesses and that's how we know in the historical record about this meeting.
00:09:06
A couple days after that, a free black man who was a veteran of the Oji rebellion, the one the rich people who happened to be people of color all got attacked.
00:09:15
- Yeah.
00:09:17
- This guy leads or revolted a sugar estate that recently had a strike because these networks that came out of strikes were a huge part of it.
00:09:25
And the plan that they came up with was three guys with knives are gonna go kill the manager, but they failed.
00:09:29
And so these first two sparks that the revolution tried to cast out didn't catch.
00:09:35
But that's what happens when you try and start fires with sparks.
00:09:39
- Yeah.
00:09:40
- Just gotta keep going.
00:09:41
- Yeah.
00:09:42
- So they do.
00:09:43
- On August 21st or the 24th or the 14th, or not at all, depending on your source.
00:09:48
(laughing)
00:09:50
- Yes.
00:09:51
- There's so many versions where like there was only one meeting, there was zero meetings.
00:09:54
- Yeah.
00:09:55
- I've become a believer in the two meeting theory of the Haitian revolution over the past two weeks of reading about this constantly.
00:10:02
- Well, the t-shirts say 24th.
00:10:04
That's what the t-shirts say.
00:10:05
- Oh, interesting.
00:10:06
- That's just a t-shirt.
00:10:07
- Yeah.
00:10:07
- I know that.
00:10:08
- Oh, huh.
00:10:09
- All right.
00:10:10
- But what do they know?
00:10:11
Like, there's no-- - Yeah.
00:10:13
- Yeah.
00:10:14
- At some point, you have the second meeting, and this is the meeting that goes down in history.
00:10:18
- Yeah.
00:10:19
- It's the more famous meeting in the woods, the one that really got shit going.
00:10:23
I've seen it framed where the first meeting was the meeting of the leaders, and the next one was the rallying of the troops.
00:10:28
But I think that this is coming a little bit from a bias from someone believing that everything is like hierarchically organized.
00:10:35
- Yeah.
00:10:36
- I think it was a planning spokes council, and then a rallying of the troops.
00:10:40
But the leaders are at both, and the 18-year-old wasn't a leader.
00:10:44
He was a, anyway, whatever.
00:10:45
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:47
- The second meeting was more famous 'cause it's a ceremony, and it was coolest shit.
00:10:51
It was at a place that is now famous, boi, keema, alligator woods.
00:10:55
The revolutionaries forgot to do a roll call, and they didn't keep detailed minutes of these meetings and ceremonies.
00:11:03
And so they become folkloric.
00:11:05
- So did the meeting even happen?
00:11:06
- I know.
00:11:07
- Did anybody's second?
00:11:08
Was there, where did we have an open floor discussion?
00:11:11
- Yeah.
00:11:12
- Yeah.
00:11:13
- And most people agree that two people led this ceremony.
00:11:18
There was a male priest, Hungen, which is the name for a male priest in Vodu.
00:11:22
- Yeah.
00:11:23
- Name Bookman Dady.
00:11:25
And there was a female priest, a mambo, named Cecil Fatiman.
00:11:28
And we'll start with Bookman.
00:11:31
I've read that he was born in Jamaica, and I've read that he was born free in what was called then Senegambia in Africa, and then he was transported to Jamaica.
00:11:39
I don't know.
00:11:40
He was likely a Muslim cleric, as well as a Vodu practitioner, or he was one and not the other, or he was both, or he was not, people really argue about this shit.
00:11:51
- Wow.
00:11:52
- The thing that seems convincing to me is that he was both a Muslim cleric and a Vodu practitioner.
00:11:56
- Yeah.
00:11:57
- His name either comes from the fact that he was literate, the name Bookman, or it comes that as a Muslim cleric, he was a man of the book.
00:12:05
- Interesting.
00:12:06
- And he either converted to Vodu, away from Islam, or he stayed Muslim and became Vodu, and I honestly, as far as I can tell, what people say has more to do with the religious preferences of the people who wrote that history,
00:12:19
'cause he's an important hero.
00:12:21
- Yeah.
00:12:22
- Either way, the British guy who owned him sold him off to a French colonist and sent him on, possibly for teaching other enslaved people how to read.
00:12:30
People say that he was a quote, imposing physical stature, and in all the art people made of him, he is ripped as hell.
00:12:38
There's a really good art of this guy.
00:12:39
- Hell yeah, hell yeah, hell yeah.
00:12:42
- He was a coachman for a while, which allowed him to travel around and help build that communication network that was necessary for the revolution.
00:12:49
It's also possible that he marooned himself and was living free.
00:12:52
That's one of the leaders of this ceremony.
00:12:55
- Yeah.
00:12:56
- And the other is a woman named Cecil Fatimon, who's a mamba.
00:12:59
And she is even more mythologized.
00:13:01
And we know even less about her for certain, but there is a strong oral tradition around her.
00:13:06
And that's a very valid and important wave, transmitting information throughout time.
00:13:11
- Totally.
00:13:12
- I promised yet another character, ostensibly born to royalty, a way at the beginning, someone else ostensibly born to royalty.
00:13:19
And so is she.
00:13:20
She was born to an African woman and supposedly a white Corsican prince, or the prince of Corsica himself.
00:13:27
And she and her mother and two brothers were sold into slavery when she was young and sent among.
00:13:33
Her two brothers were never heard from again.
00:13:34
Sometimes she is presented as one of the organizers of the ceremony.
00:13:38
Sometimes she was just a woman in the crowd who stepped up to perform the ceremony and be mounted by the law.
00:13:43
Either way, it was a dark and stormy night and the rain is ripping through the trees and it, what a fucking beautiful moment I've been in.
00:13:53
Like, dude, at the down at the equator in Haiti, it's raining beautiful, yeah.
00:13:58
- Yeah.
00:13:59
I have read both that the, this is how mad I am at all the way the history is written about.
00:14:04
I have read both that the ceremony is very well documented with accounts appearing in print only a few years later.
00:14:10
And I've also read that all of our documentation out is terrible and it might not have happened at all.
00:14:14
- Shhh, great.
00:14:16
- It's almost certain that this happened.
00:14:18
- Yeah.
00:14:19
- One day, I am going to take a year and just learn about the ancient revolution and I will be very excited for that entire year.
00:14:25
- Yeah.
00:14:26
- Oh, it'd be so good to just like, imagine having a year per subject instead of a week or two.
00:14:31
- Just deep dive, yeah.
00:14:33
- Yeah.
00:14:34
- I'll get a million degrees instead of the zero degrees I currently have.
00:14:38
So because the ceremony is one of the most important parts of Haitian history and cultural pride, it is also a contentious point.
00:14:46
The modern evangelical factions claim that this is a satanic ritual which is why the whole country is cursed today because they made a deal with the devil.
00:14:54
You can tell by my tone of voice that I don't care about this position at all.
00:14:58
- Yeah.
00:14:59
- I suspect that more Marxist historians are downplaying the religious nature of the revolution and so they kind of talk less about the ceremony.
00:15:08
Whereas other people play up the ceremony because they want to sell seats to the show and if you talk about Vodoo, you know, it's exotic.
00:15:18
You know, I gotta tell you, man, this has been one of the struggles I've had over the years.
00:15:24
That juxtaposition of either playing up or playing down the religious element of stuff.
00:15:32
It's been a struggle for me and it's kind of been hard to articulate but it's when black history isn't covered by black people.
00:15:41
Like is, I mean, down to like the civil rights of being like, well, these were pastors.
00:15:47
You know, like, and they were, you know, so to say on one hand, like you said, the evangelical being like, well, that was a Christian movement.
00:15:55
- Yeah.
00:15:56
- And then being like, well, it was a lot of Christians in it that had theological positions that made them feel like they needed to move forward.
00:16:03
But then you got the same evangelicals that were like, well, Martin Luther King didn't understand the gospel.
00:16:08
He preached the gospel wrong.
00:16:10
He believed in a social gospel.
00:16:11
So how could this be a Christian revolution?
00:16:13
And like, and then like you said, they didn't have the Marxists being like, no, this was about justice.
00:16:18
It was about equality.
00:16:19
It was about, you know, the political movements.
00:16:22
And it's like the answer is yes.
00:16:24
- Yeah.
00:16:25
- You know, and that is like, and in some senses, it's like, I don't know if anybody who listens to this pot will know who Vince Staples is.
00:16:32
But Vince Staples is a long beach rapper who's probably one of the funniest humans on earth.
00:16:36
But somebody asked him like, when'd you fall in love with hip hop?
00:16:41
He was like, man, it's like, I was born in 19, what do you say?
00:16:45
Like he was like either 91 or 89.
00:16:47
He was like, I was born in 1989, some like that.
00:16:49
The number's not the point, but he was just like, that's like asking black people when they met Jesus.
00:16:53
Like, we're black.
00:16:54
Like, you know what I'm saying?
00:16:55
Like this, that's always a part of our story.
00:16:58
You know, it's always there.
00:16:59
So that's his point about hip hop.
00:17:01
He was like, if you're born in 1990, there's no part of your life that wasn't, that hip hop wasn't a part of.
00:17:07
- Yeah.
00:17:08
- So when did I fall in love with hip hop?
00:17:09
What are you talking about?
00:17:10
Like, it was always there.
00:17:12
So I feel like this particular thing to be like, he just through this whole thing was a Muslim, was a voodoo, did this happen?
00:17:18
Was this important with Satan?
00:17:19
And it's like, yes.
00:17:21
- Right.
00:17:21
- Like, you know what I'm saying?
00:17:22
Like, that is our experience.
00:17:23
- Yeah.
00:17:24
- Yeah.
00:17:25
No, that makes so much sense to me.
00:17:26
And it's like why I ended up like frustrated reading about that stuff 'cause I'm like, yeah, like, 'cause people are like, which neat category?
00:17:31
- Yes.
00:17:32
- So you're gonna go in.
00:17:33
You know, everyone is trying to claim him in different directions.
00:17:36
And he was like probably just like believed in some shit very deeply in a very meaningful and useful way, you know?
00:17:43
And maybe it doesn't map perfectly.
00:17:45
And maybe it did, you know?
00:17:47
- And maybe it did.
00:17:48
And maybe they saw no, which is what I keep finding.
00:17:51
Like, they just saw no contradiction.
00:17:54
- Yeah.
00:17:55
- Like, I see no contradiction between this voodoo and Muslim.
00:17:58
Like, I don't see any contradiction.
00:17:59
- No, exactly.
00:18:00
And like, I mean, I remember once years ago, my great-on was a nun.
00:18:05
And I was like, she used to teach.
00:18:06
And I was like, hey, like, what's the deal with like, creation versus evolution or whatever?
00:18:11
You teach evolution.
00:18:12
And she's like, yeah, and I'm like, is that contradiction?
00:18:14
And she's like, no, just don't worry about it.
00:18:17
(laughing)
00:18:18
- I like her.
00:18:19
- Yeah.
00:18:20
That was her answer.
00:18:21
She was like, no, it's just not a big deal.
00:18:22
Like, it's fine.
00:18:24
- Okay, are you just complicated?
00:18:25
- Yeah.
00:18:26
- And I think you're right about the like, I specifically find myself frustrated at how much religious people are, they're like, people are like, we love John Brown.
00:18:36
Like, wait, wait, let's love John Brown, right?
00:18:40
- Yeah.
00:18:40
- And like, good, he's great.
00:18:42
I like John Brown too.
00:18:43
- Yeah, he's a good one.
00:18:44
He's one of the ones.
00:18:45
- Yeah.
00:18:45
- And, but then the same people will be like, militantly atheist.
00:18:49
And I'm like, that's okay, you can be an atheist.
00:18:51
But like, John Brown wasn't.
00:18:53
- He was not an atheist.
00:18:54
- I like.
00:18:55
- Yes, I believed a mandate from God.
00:18:57
I am doing God's work here.
00:18:59
- Yeah.
00:19:00
And to take away that part of his character is kind of shitty.
00:19:05
- Yeah.
00:19:06
Yeah.
00:19:07
As disrespectful, man.
00:19:08
- Yeah.
00:19:08
- Yeah.
00:19:09
- Yeah.
00:19:10
- Yeah.
00:19:11
So yeah, now I'm with that.
00:19:12
- Yeah.
00:19:13
- I appreciate that.
00:19:14
Like that has always been like a, I've never been able to pull my finger up.
00:19:16
But I'm like, some, like, it don't like, I can't, I don't know what to tell you.
00:19:19
Like, it's, it's a, it's a cultural experience that I feel like others have.
00:19:28
Like in their real life.
00:19:29
Like in the life you actually live.
00:19:31
Just like you say, like, you were like, I go to a Catholic school.
00:19:33
- Yeah, mom, you know, auntie's a nun, like, so there was no part of your life that, - I went to public school.
00:19:38
I'm real proud of that.
00:19:39
But yeah.
00:19:40
- Yeah.
00:19:41
- Okay, my fault.
00:19:42
But my aunt's a nun, yeah.
00:19:43
- Yeah, your aunt's a nun.
00:19:44
So it's just like, you know, we just stuff.
00:19:46
We went to mass.
00:19:47
- Yeah.
00:19:48
- Like, yeah, yeah.
00:19:49
Like, what do you want me to say?
00:19:50
- Yeah.
00:19:51
- You know, yeah.
00:19:52
- Yeah.
00:19:53
- Anyway, so.
00:19:54
- Yeah.
00:19:55
- The ceremony.
00:19:57
Last week we talked about Vodoo.
00:19:58
When we talked about the, the law, the spirits, the angels, the saints, whatever people want them wanting to call it, and how there's different nations of the law.
00:20:06
And the petro nation is the nation that doesn't take shit and is willing to get shit done and does not mind hurting people to get shit done.
00:20:15
So that night in the woods, they called in a law named Azili Danto, who is the most important law in the Petro family.
00:20:22
Azili is more broadly to quote the encyclopedia of African religion.
00:20:27
The law of love, the symbol of cosmic fertility, par excellence, the mother of the universe, the giver of children.
00:20:32
It is Azili, indeed, who is responsible for the continuous flow of life.
00:20:36
So that's the more broad, like feminine spirit that they're bringing in.
00:20:40
But there's a lot of different versions of Azili.
00:20:43
Azili Freda is the rada version of Azili, the nice one, the calm one, the embodiment of femininity, who is bisexual as hell and doesn't care what gender of person she mounts.
00:20:54
- Love it.
00:20:55
- Azili Danto, the one that they're gonna call in this night, she is not the nice version of her.
00:21:01
She is the feminine incarnation of rage and the hardworking mother.
00:21:06
- God, dog, yes, let's go.
00:21:10
- And that's why I'm like, oh, we can't strip out the religion 'cause this is the spirit, the literal spirit that is where they're coming from at the start, you know?
00:21:20
Danto is angry and unraged when she is displeased.
00:21:24
She is depicted as a black woman carrying a black infant girl in pink clothes.
00:21:29
She has two parallel vertical scars on her right cheek, some people say that the scars were ritualistically done in an African style, others that she got them fighting white people in the revolution.
00:21:39
Sometimes she's presented as no nose, which was cut off in battle.
00:21:42
And she is the single mother of seven children, so you know she knows how to get shit done.
00:21:47
- She can get it done, you know?
00:21:49
- Yeah.
00:21:50
So they're in the win-torn woods, planning a violent revolution that they each assume will be the death of them.
00:21:57
Dutty Bookman gives a speech.
00:21:59
At the end of everything he said, he said, listen to the voice of liberty, which speaks in the hearts of us all.
00:22:05
He called on people to reject the Christian false God and trust in the supreme being, something found in most of the African religious traditions that had come over.
00:22:14
- Yeah.
00:22:15
- He said, quote, "The God who created the sun, which gives us light, which rouses the waves and rules the storm, though hidden in the clouds, he watches us.
00:22:23
He sees all that the white man does.
00:22:26
The God of the white man inspires him with crime, but our God calls upon us to do good works.
00:22:31
Our God who is good to us, orders us to revenge our wrongs.
00:22:35
He will direct our arms and aid us.
00:22:38
Throw away the symbol of the God of the whites who is so often caused us to weep and listen to the voice of liberty, which speaks in the hearts of all."
00:22:46
- Ooh, that is a scathing.
00:22:49
- Yeah.
00:22:50
- Scathing report.
00:22:51
- Yeah.
00:22:52
- Yeah, buddy.
00:22:54
As I've always been like, you know, fascinated on like, yeah, the role like in American, the American slavery tradition where like,
00:23:06
generally speaking, like, Sundays slaves were allowed to go to church, you know what I mean?
00:23:11
And because of that, like, that's why like a lot of our, expression is very passionate.
00:23:16
You know what I'm saying?
00:23:17
And energetic and also looking a lot more like our own, animist traditions of embodiment, right?
00:23:26
But one thing I've always cracked up on is like, y'all handed us this book and by the second, by the second book, you get to exit this and you're like,
00:23:37
well, wait a minute now.
00:23:38
Like, it's say right here.
00:23:43
- Yeah.
00:23:44
- You're the bad guys.
00:23:46
Like, I'm just saying according to the book.
00:23:48
- Yeah.
00:23:49
- Like, you know, so we was like, I like this Moses dude.
00:23:52
You know, like, yeah.
00:23:55
So, so yeah.
00:23:56
So you come up with that and where you're in.
00:23:58
So like a lot of times, yeah.
00:23:59
Just in like the black church tradition, who was like, I don't know what, I don't know if by what they read.
00:24:04
But this one, this will say liberty, you know.
00:24:09
Anyway.
00:24:11
- Yeah, no, like I, I meet X, X evangelicals.
00:24:15
That's the word I think.
00:24:16
- Yeah, yes.
00:24:17
I was like, well, how did you get away from the church?
00:24:18
And I'm like, well, I read the book they gave me.
00:24:20
- That's it, listen.
00:24:22
Listen, you're like, oh, if I'm a follow to dude, like the dude that you supposed to be following, that means I can't follow yo.
00:24:30
That's what it turns out to me.
00:24:32
- Yeah.
00:24:32
- There's like, you know, there's a lot of inconsistencies and complicated things in the Bible.
00:24:36
And like, but it's fairly consistent on like, take care of poor people, and the rich people are in trouble.
00:24:42
- On the care for the poor, yeah.
00:24:44
- Yeah.
00:24:45
- Being on the side of those suffering.
00:24:48
- Yeah.
00:24:49
- So, they have this ritual in the woods.
00:24:52
So Seal, Fathomon sacrificed a black pig, and then they all drank its blood.
00:24:57
Some say they drank you in blood too, which probably didn't happen, but you know what if it did, it does not bother me.
00:25:02
- It's been a while.
00:25:03
That's the Filipino side of me.
00:25:05
I'm like, yeah, it's a denigone, anyway.
00:25:06
- Oh, okay, no, I don't know that one.
00:25:08
- Oh, I got it.
00:25:09
Oh, oh.
00:25:10
Hey, okay, now the cool zone read it.
00:25:13
All my Penoise.
00:25:14
Listen, so denigone, they call it the chocolate me.
00:25:16
It's so, I know this stuff, 'cause from where I'm from, and my stepmom's Filipino, but basically it's beef and pork, and it looks like a brown sauce over it, but the sauce is blood.
00:25:26
- Oh, okay, yeah.
00:25:27
- Yeah.
00:25:28
- Yeah, I mean, it's like, Catholics literally drink blood.
00:25:31
- Yeah.
00:25:32
- English people, all of their food is like blood pudding.
00:25:36
I don't know, I can't handle English food.
00:25:37
- Still got blood in it, yeah.
00:25:39
- Yeah, again, anyway.
00:25:40
Wouldn't bother me, but it's all played up, you know?
00:25:43
- Yeah.
00:25:44
- And, and this is not the first time we talk about this on the show, before they have this revolution, they swear a solemn oath to one another.
00:25:51
I think ritual is a really important and underutilized tactic and way of bringing people together.
00:25:56
- Absolutely.
00:25:57
- They swear a solemn oath to each other that they will never betray the revolution.
00:26:01
They declared that those who died would promise that their soul would return to Genén, just sort of a spiritual conception of Africa.
00:26:09
It's used as like an afterlife.
00:26:11
Those who betrayed the plot never would.
00:26:13
Bookman himself would die early in the fighting.
00:26:17
His head is on a pike, probably the age of 24.
00:26:20
But you know what?
00:26:21
He fucking succeeded.
00:26:23
He accomplished something in his life that almost no one else can claim.
00:26:28
- Yeah.
00:26:29
- Leading the most successful slave revolt and fucking probably human history and at least the Western hemispheres history.
00:26:36
Like-- - Yeah.
00:26:37
Since the European step foot on Africa, this is the most successful.
00:26:41
- Yeah.
00:26:41
- Yeah.
00:26:42
- And so like, I'll take Diana 24 for that, you know?
00:26:45
Like, it's like-- - It's pretty rad, yeah.
00:26:46
- And Fatima survived the revolution.
00:26:50
She married one of the most important commanders who was later president of Haiti for like a year.
00:26:54
And by most accounts, she lived to be 112 years old.
00:26:57
Obviously, birth records are kind of fuzzy.
00:26:59
But you know what?
00:27:00
She could live to be 112.
00:27:01
- Yeah.
00:27:02
- After she died, she became a lawal named Mary Annette.
00:27:05
She is known as Mary Annette of the Dry Arms or Mary Annette of the Dry Feet because she's a skeleton.
00:27:11
Her colors are black and blood red.
00:27:13
When she possesses people, they become violent.
00:27:16
People are afraid of her, but she frees people from bondage.
00:27:19
And I think she's cool.
00:27:21
She's the protector of werewolves.
00:27:23
- Whoa.
00:27:24
- Yeah.
00:27:25
- Okay.
00:27:26
- Yeah.
00:27:27
- I know a lot of people are named after her.
00:27:28
- Fuck yeah.
00:27:29
- Yeah.
00:27:30
- And they have the ceremony.
00:27:33
They vow to be faithful to the revolution.
00:27:35
And then they fight.
00:27:36
They don't fight for ads, but because I didn't have a producer telling me when to cut to ads, I forgot.
00:27:42
And so they're later in the episode.
00:27:44
And I know you all were thinking, "Where are my ads?"
00:27:47
But here, here they are.
00:27:49
Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there?
00:27:57
We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons and birds, but what if there's something else?
00:28:04
Something much more ominous that appears under the cover of night.
00:28:09
Silent, unseen, watching.
00:28:12
They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road, or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home, drones,
00:28:24
or are they?
00:28:25
- We used to work drone because it was comfortable to other people.
00:28:29
- One minute was there, more than it was.
00:28:32
- Oh, that is.
00:28:33
- Be on creepy.
00:28:36
- Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?
00:28:41
- Yes, absolutely.
00:28:43
- Listen to Obscural, Invasion of the Drones, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:28:52
- The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be.
00:28:57
Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being.
00:29:02
It sounded out together.org.
00:29:04
That's SoundItOutTogether.org.
00:29:06
Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal.
00:29:09
- I got one for God and who runs this valley.
00:29:11
- Time to remind 'em.
00:29:13
- Yellowstone fans, step into the Yellowstone Universe.
00:29:17
- Our family legacy is this ranch.
00:29:20
- Well, I protect it with my life.
00:29:22
- Hosted by Bobby Bones, the official Yellowstone podcast takes you deeper into the franchise that's captivated millions worldwide.
00:29:31
- Action!
00:29:32
- Explore untold the Hymasine stories, exclusive cast interviews, and in-depth discussions about the themes and legacy of Yellowstone.
00:29:41
- You know the first sentence to settle this valley fighting was all they knew.
00:29:45
- Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the ranch.
00:29:49
- Welcome to the Yellowstone.
00:29:51
- Bobby Bones has everything you need to stay connected to the Yellowstone phenomenon.
00:29:56
- I look forward to it.
00:29:58
- Listen to the official Yellowstone podcast now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:30:07
- Let's go to work.
00:30:07
- Hey you guys, I'm Catherine Legg.
00:30:11
I'm a racing driver who's literally driven everything with four wheels across the planet.
00:30:15
And I've got a new podcast.
00:30:17
It's called Throttle Therapy.
00:30:19
This season, I'm gearing up to make history competing in some of the world's most notorious racing events starting at the Indy 500.
00:30:27
Join me as I travel from racetrack to racetrack in my quest to continue a memorable career in racing.
00:30:33
I'm also gonna bring you inside stories with legends of sports, new faces from the next generation of auto racing, and conversations with the people who supported me throughout my career.
00:30:44
We'll be getting into everything from karting to NASCAR, even Formula One, whether you dream about being a pro athlete, or an astronaut, we're talking about what it takes to make it.
00:30:53
Listen to Throttle Therapy with Catherine Legg, an iHeart Women's Sports production, and partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
00:31:00
You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:31:05
Presented by Capital One, the founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.
00:31:09
And we're back.
00:31:17
The very next morning, a group of people from a bunch of different plantations and maybe maroons, showed up and set off towards the NOAA sugar factory.
00:31:26
This is the one that I kicked off a lot of the strikes with that guy Jean-Jacques was hanging out as an unemployed slave, a concept that had never occurred to me.
00:31:33
Yeah, yeah, never thought about it.
00:31:35
Yeah.
00:31:36
They found the white guy overseeing night work and they stabbed him to death.
00:31:40
The estate agent ran out to see what was happening, so they shot him.
00:31:44
They killed at least two more white workers.
00:31:46
They didn't kill the surgeon.
00:31:47
And then just out around midnight, they burned the fucking slave labor, soft factory to the ground.
00:31:53
Yeah.
00:31:54
Then they marched to the Dutty Plantation.
00:31:55
Oh, that was the reason Bookman's name is Dutty is, 'cause he was owned by someone named Dutty.
00:31:59
He was owned by, yeah.
00:32:01
They went hot to hut and spread the word to people to spread the word elsewhere, to go to the other plantations.
00:32:07
They took the agent prisoner.
00:32:09
The agent said that they discussed their plans openly in front of him, which was that they wanted, quote, nothing less than the destruction of all of the white people except some who didn't own property,
00:32:20
some priests, some surgeons, some women, and to set fire to all the plantations and making themselves masters of the country.
00:32:27
And it's like, this is presented as like a gacha, but I'm like, yeah.
00:32:32
That's really nice of them to carve out so many exceptions.
00:32:35
It's so great.
00:32:35
Yeah.
00:32:36
It's so great.
00:32:37
Yeah.
00:32:38
My guy doesn't even own anyone.
00:32:39
Why are you gonna kill this?
00:32:40
All right.
00:32:41
Cool.
00:32:42
They marched and gathered forces as they went.
00:32:46
1,500 of them were fighting by the time they reached the coast.
00:32:50
And this wasn't the only force.
00:32:51
There was already revolt at the coastal plantations as well.
00:32:54
So they like show up and people are already revolting.
00:32:56
Coffee workers, yeah.
00:32:58
Like it just fucking, it was just go time and then they all went.
00:33:02
Basically, yeah, like, is it we've waiting for it?
00:33:06
Yeah.
00:33:07
Coffee workers threw off their chains and were coming down out of the mountains to join up with them.
00:33:12
All the forces met up at the coast and then split into two.
00:33:15
Bookman went east, burning sugar fields and refineries as he went.
00:33:19
And there's one fun moment that stands out.
00:33:21
This huge army comes upon 20 white militia people.
00:33:24
All but one guy is like, fuck this naively.
00:33:27
19 of the white guys run away.
00:33:29
But the guy who stays is a slaver who used to own one of the guys in the army.
00:33:33
And the slaver says, quote, you wretch.
00:33:37
I was only ever good to you.
00:33:38
Why do you want to kill me?
00:33:40
That's what they always say.
00:33:43
But I was, I was nice.
00:33:45
Yeah.
00:33:46
Oh, okay.
00:33:47
Yeah.
00:33:48
What about me though?
00:33:50
But I was like, you like y'all like me though, right?
00:33:52
Yeah, totally.
00:33:53
And the coachman X-slave stabs the guy and says, that is true.
00:34:00
But I promise to kill you.
00:34:02
(laughs)
00:34:04
I love it.
00:34:05
He's like, oh yeah, but I mean, it's war knows man.
00:34:08
It's just a law.
00:34:09
Yeah, what's happening?
00:34:10
Other revolutionaries would actually protect their former owners, just a few of them.
00:34:16
But a lot of the leaders ended up doing this.
00:34:18
And I think, I think this probably relates that a lot of the leaders were like the drivers and the people who were a little bit closer and knew them.
00:34:25
The leader of the second wing was a guy named Paul Bellin and he gave a boat to the people who ran his old plantation so that they could get away.
00:34:32
And so then the people fighting alongside him killed him for letting the slavers escape.
00:34:37
These two forces go around mostly winning, burning almost 200 plantations for 15,000 people in like the first like 10 days and all the colonists in the North flee to Capfronts while the capital.
00:34:49
But the revolution was just getting started.
00:34:53
And I know that I keep coming back to this like, did they have a kill all the white people attitude?
00:34:59
Because it's the thing that gets argued about.
00:35:02
And I know I kind of keep being like, I kind of don't care if they did.
00:35:05
But it's also still messier than anyone can easily explain.
00:35:10
'Cause they all had different fucking ideas.
00:35:13
Yeah.
00:35:15
And they were at this point probably, but again, but it's also, it's so frustrating, right?
00:35:19
Because then there's all this propaganda against them for hundreds of years about how they're all evil or whatever the fuck.
00:35:25
But probably they were killing white people and putting their, including kids and putting their heads on pikes and shit.
00:35:30
The same shit that had been happening to them.
00:35:31
The white people insisted it was a race war and it became a race war.
00:35:35
Yeah.
00:35:36
Colonial forces counter attacked, attacking armed camps of rebels, but the rebels melted into the mountains.
00:35:42
Bookman himself died in battle.
00:35:44
Jean Jacques was captured and executed.
00:35:46
Peace talk started up pretty quick.
00:35:49
The priests did a lot of the intermediary work 'cause they were sort of neutral.
00:35:53
Yeah.
00:35:54
The offer was return to slavery and we won't punish you for the revolt.
00:35:58
Like amnesty, you know?
00:36:00
Like, are we winning?
00:36:03
Yeah, that was their attitude.
00:36:05
Yeah.
00:36:06
We're winning.
00:36:07
Their counter offer, which was honestly perfectly fucking, like nicer than they should have asked for, was full amnesty, emancipation for everyone and then they would go back and work for wages.
00:36:20
Whereas I'm like, no, it just sees the means of production while you're at it.
00:36:22
But like, you know what?
00:36:24
Like, yeah, like I'm down to work.
00:36:26
Yeah.
00:36:27
Fam like I'm just saying, yeah.
00:36:29
Yeah, I want to get paid for my work instead of being owned.
00:36:31
Yeah, that's all I'm saying.
00:36:32
Don't you like getting paid for your work?
00:36:34
Yeah.
00:36:35
And so at this point, they're not actually fighting against France in their mind.
00:36:40
They're fighting against the white supremacist local occupation.
00:36:43
Yeah.
00:36:44
So France looks at this revolt and is like, all right, fine, we're taking away what's left of the rights for free black people.
00:36:50
And so then the free black people are like, all right.
00:36:52
Even more, we're with the revolution.
00:36:55
And here we are in part four.
00:36:57
I thought I was going to do all the ins and outs of this incredibly complicated strategic thing and I am not going to.
00:37:02
Yeah, because I'm not going to make a six-parter yet.
00:37:05
But in broader strokes, the new revolutionary government in France, I'm going to put revolutionary quotes there because they're going to send 6,000 troops to put down the slave revolt.
00:37:14
They fail.
00:37:15
And they're like, all right, fine, this isn't working.
00:37:19
We need to let free black people join the reactionary forces fighting against the slave revolt.
00:37:23
So they started enrolling free men of color into the military, including as officers.
00:37:27
And so they forced diversified the colonial assembly to be half white and half free men of color.
00:37:34
And you'll be shocked to know the colonial administration isn't happy about this.
00:37:39
(laughing)
00:37:40
The whole Western world is kind of going ape shit at this point.
00:37:43
In 1793, the French killed their king, Spain and England declared war on the revolutionary government.
00:37:48
Spain decides to back the Haitian revolution.
00:37:51
- Yes.
00:37:51
- Making to saw in the other revolutionary leaders, officers in the royal Spanish army.
00:37:56
They offer enslaved people their freedom.
00:37:58
If they fought, they're not abolishing slavery.
00:38:00
They're just freeing individuals.
00:38:01
But, you know, that's a decent deal for people.
00:38:03
They're like, yeah, we'll take it.
00:38:05
- I'll take it, yeah.
00:38:05
- Yeah.
00:38:07
In 1793, it wasn't looking great for the Haitian revolutionaries.
00:38:10
Thousands of people were back in chains.
00:38:11
But then the fucking white supremacist colonists, they're like, we don't like having these free black people around.
00:38:17
So they staged a revolt against the French government.
00:38:19
Also, the one that was sort of trying to help them, but like forcing them to diversify.
00:38:25
So all of a sudden, the pro-diversity crowd is like, all right, fuck it, full emancipation.
00:38:29
If you help us beat back the other parts of France.
00:38:32
And so fucking messy.
00:38:34
The rebels now join the French Revolutionary Army on Halloween 1793.
00:38:39
France declares a general emancipation, no more slavery.
00:38:42
And this kicks in in 1795.
00:38:45
Not because they were like slow to do it, I think, I think it was like literally they're in the middle of a revolution.
00:38:49
- Yeah, we're busy too.
00:38:50
- Yeah.
00:38:51
- France is like, listen, you guys, okay, listen.
00:38:55
If we just call emancipation, will you guys stop calling us?
00:38:58
- Yeah, yeah.
00:38:59
- Yeah, exactly, that's what they did.
00:39:01
They're like, I fine, you fucking win.
00:39:02
And you got it, you got it, go for it.
00:39:04
- Yeah.
00:39:05
So suddenly all the former enslaved people are French citizens.
00:39:09
Meanwhile, Makindal and the mosquitoes are doing most of the killing of the various invading European armies.
00:39:15
Yellow fever is killing most of the soldiers.
00:39:19
Do you saw Louis Turm, who we haven't talked about in any length, who I thought was gonna be the primary character of this entire thing, he is consolidating power.
00:39:27
He's sort of a moderate at this point.
00:39:29
He doesn't want to kill all the white people.
00:39:31
He's down to be part of France, so long as he's in charge.
00:39:34
And he actually, controversially, to his own people, he wants the plantation economy back.
00:39:39
He just wants people working as paid workers.
00:39:41
- Yeah.
00:39:42
- He starts using his army to force people to go back to work.
00:39:45
- Yeah.
00:39:46
- And then he goes to war against other would-be leaders.
00:39:48
He comes out victorious.
00:39:49
He's pretty against Vodoo at this point, once he's in charge.
00:39:52
He forbids dancing and gathering at night.
00:39:55
And things probably would have settled down at this point.
00:39:59
But Napoleon comes to power in France, and he's planning on bringing back the French empire instead of the Republic.
00:40:06
He's like, fuck this, we're conquering Sandoumong, we're bringing back slavery, because he wants the economy back and he's a racist.
00:40:12
- Yeah.
00:40:13
- He's since 20,000 troops.
00:40:16
And again, this is really about race for him.
00:40:19
His brother-in-law, Charles Leclerc or Leclerc, or whatever, I don't know, fuck it this guy.
00:40:24
He invades in 1802, and he wrote, we must destroy all the blacks in the mountains, men and women, and spare only children under 12 years of age.
00:40:34
We must destroy half of those in the plains, and we must not leave a single colored person in the colony who has worn an epilette.
00:40:40
Like, why, though?
00:40:44
Because he, it's funny because I think he claims he's like, oh, what was me?
00:40:50
This is the only way to do it.
00:40:51
Because he's like, they can't be trusted or something.
00:40:54
- Yeah.
00:40:55
- And his own black officers start defecting from his ranks, right?
00:40:59
Because he's like, I'm just gonna kill all the black people now.
00:41:02
And all of those people who went and joined his military, he arrested all the black troops in his own forces, executing 1,000 of them by pushing them overboard with flour sacks tied to their necks.
00:41:14
- Wow.
00:41:16
- So it doesn't do any good decide with the fascists.
00:41:21
- Yeah, it just, it never works out for you.
00:41:23
- Yeah.
00:41:24
The French arrest Lovator, he dies in French prison, but people keep fighting.
00:41:30
As far as I can tell, one thing I read was like, look, they actually didn't fight too hard to protect Lovator.
00:41:36
They kind of didn't like him because he's being a dick, and like using the Army to force everyone to go to work.
00:41:39
- Yeah.
00:41:40
- But he dies in French prison, which is a shame.
00:41:43
Because before, he didn't have a chance to listen to the products and services that support this show.
00:41:48
- You see what I'm saying?
00:41:49
Like you should have, yeah.
00:41:51
- You should have stuck around longer.
00:41:53
- Yeah, it was very smooth.
00:41:54
- Thank you, thank you.
00:41:55
- Yeah.
00:41:56
- Here's the ads.
00:41:56
- Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there?
00:42:04
We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds, but what if there's something else?
00:42:12
Something much more ominous, that appears under the cover of night, silent, unseen, watching.
00:42:20
They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home, drones,
00:42:30
or are they?
00:42:32
- We used to work drone because it was comfortable to other people.
00:42:36
- One thing that was there more than it was.
00:42:39
- Oh, that means, be on free fee.
00:42:43
Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?
00:42:48
- Yes, absolutely.
00:42:50
- Listen to Obscural, Invasion of the Drones, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:43:00
The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be.
00:43:05
Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being.
00:43:09
It's sounded out together.org.
00:43:11
That's sounded out together.org.
00:43:14
Brought to you by the ad council and pivotal.
00:43:16
- I go once forgotten who runs this valley.
00:43:19
Time to remind them.
00:43:21
- Yellowstone fans, step into the Yellowstone universe.
00:43:25
- Our family legacy is this ranch.
00:43:27
- Well, I'm protected with my life.
00:43:29
- Hosted by Bobby Bones, the official Yellowstone podcast takes you deeper into the franchise that's captivated millions worldwide.
00:43:38
- Action!
00:43:39
- Explore untold behind the scene stories, exclusive cast interviews, and in-depth discussions about the themes and legacy of Yellowstone.
00:43:49
- You know, the first time to settle this valley fighting was all they knew.
00:43:52
- Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the ranch.
00:43:57
- Welcome to the Yellowstone.
00:43:58
- Bobby Bones has everything you need to stay connected to the Yellowstone phenomenon.
00:44:03
- I look forward to it.
00:44:05
- Listen to the official Yellowstone podcast now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:44:14
- Let's go to work.
00:44:15
- Hey you guys, I'm Catherine Legg.
00:44:18
I'm a racing driver who's literally driven everything with four wheels across the planet.
00:44:23
And I've got a new podcast.
00:44:24
It's called Throttle Therapy.
00:44:27
This season I'm gearing up to make history, competing in some of the world's most notorious racing events, starting at the Indy 500.
00:44:34
Join me as I travel from racetrack to racetrack in my quest to continue a memorable career in racing.
00:44:40
I'm also gonna bring you inside stories with legends of sports, new faces from the next generation of auto racing, and conversations with the people who've supported me throughout my career.
00:44:51
We'll be getting into everything from karting to NASCAR, even Formula One, whether you dream about being a pro athlete, or an astronaut, who we're talking about what it takes to make it.
00:45:01
Listen to Throttle Therapy with Catherine Legg, an iHeart Women's Sports Production, in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
00:45:07
You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:45:13
Presented by Capital One, sounding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.
00:45:16
(dramatic music)
00:45:21
- And we're back.
00:45:24
And so the clerk dies a yellow fever, and so this should be good, right?
00:45:28
The racist guy dies.
00:45:29
- Yeah.
00:45:30
- The way more racist guy comes in.
00:45:33
Rochambo.
00:45:34
- Rochambo.
00:45:36
- Yeah.
00:45:37
- Rock paper scissors.
00:45:38
(laughing)
00:45:41
- You might have known this.
00:45:42
You know where the world's first gas chambers were used?
00:45:45
- 'Cause I did know this.
00:45:47
- Yeah.
00:45:48
- Yeah.
00:45:49
They were used to kill the Black Prisoners of War.
00:45:51
- Yeah, right here.
00:45:52
- By Rochambo.
00:45:53
- Yeah, they would just fill up the bottoms of the ships with like a poison gas and then throw all the Black Prisoners over down there.
00:46:00
- Yeah.
00:46:02
- And the interesting thing, I'm gonna say, controversially, no white people fought for the Haitian revolution.
00:46:09
But do you want to know why I can say this for certain?
00:46:12
Because the revolution reformulated the concept of race in Haiti.
00:46:18
Hundreds of Polish soldiers fought for the revolution.
00:46:22
And so how the Haitian revolution defined blackness was if you're fighting for the revolution.
00:46:29
- You're black.
00:46:30
- Yeah.
00:46:31
- I love it.
00:46:32
- So the polls, most of whom had European heritage, actually some of, at least, I'm aware of one officer and probably some others who actually had African heritage also 'cause there's black Polish people, 'cause much to the shock of modern white supremacist Europe actually had black people in it,
00:46:47
going back forever.
00:46:48
- Yes.
00:46:49
- Anyway, the polls are mostly what we would call white.
00:46:54
They were considered black in the war legally and they have been ever since in Haiti.
00:46:58
- This is one of my favorite things about race and politics.
00:47:03
- Yeah.
00:47:04
- Like, it's a choice.
00:47:08
Like, being white to choice.
00:47:11
Like, you know, at that, like, it's only by the law.
00:47:16
It's just like you say, "Look, Polish was black people."
00:47:19
So just, I don't know what to tell you, buddy.
00:47:21
- If I was, your Irish, your Irish, your black, made the wrong fucking choice.
00:47:27
- You had a chance.
00:47:28
- Yeah.
00:47:29
- You could have, you could have stayed with us.
00:47:31
- Yeah.
00:47:32
- No, I'm pretty fucking mad about that.
00:47:34
Like, whiteness is such a, like, is the devil's bargain, right?
00:47:40
You're like, give up your entire culture and uniqueness in order to gain power, you know?
00:47:47
- Yeah.
00:47:48
And so all that's left is like fucking shamrocks in St.
00:47:52
Patrick's Day Parade, you know?
00:47:54
- You guys have, but the Irish have been varied on the whole when it comes down to it, being pro-Palestine, you know, supporting a black fan,
00:48:04
there's like, - Oh, Irish, yes.
00:48:06
Irish American, no.
00:48:08
- Yeah, Irish American is a whole different story.
00:48:10
I'm talking about the Irish.
00:48:11
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:48:12
- Yeah.
00:48:13
No, 'cause they remember what it's like to be colonized 'cause it was their great-- - Yeah, it was time, you know?
00:48:18
Like, and actually part of them, it's still colony, like.
00:48:21
- Yeah.
00:48:21
- So, the Polish legions, which I, yeah, I find this is a fucking fascinating story.
00:48:29
- So amazing.
00:48:30
- Napoleon sent 5,000 of the 20,000 troops for Poles.
00:48:34
Most of them died yellow fever about 4,000 of them, but hundreds of them switched teams because they themselves were freedom fighters, because Poland, other countries, especially Prussia and Russia had been piecemeal stealing bits of Poland for a while.
00:48:46
Poles fought back, they lost a couple of wars.
00:48:49
In 1794, they staged an uprising that grew out of popular revolt against this occupation.
00:48:55
After about half a year, the uprising was put down.
00:48:58
Austria, Prussia, and Russia were like, fine, we're carving this shit up.
00:49:02
1797, they split the country up three ways, and basically it was like, there's no more Poland, and Poland was gone for like a hundred years.
00:49:10
A fuck ton of Polish troops escaped to France, enjoying the French military, 'cause they're like, well, enemy, am I enemy, right?
00:49:16
- Yeah.
00:49:17
- And they thought, "Revolutionary France, they're revolutionaries, they might come rescue us."
00:49:21
Napoleon came to power in 1800, and he was like, hell yeah, let's use these Poles as fucking useful idiots.
00:49:27
So he sent 5,000 of them to die and send them on.
00:49:30
And they were horribly mistreated within the military.
00:49:33
They were ordered to like just, whenever you need someone like run at the front and get killed, they send the Poles.
00:49:40
And they were often just like straight up not paid.
00:49:43
And so they were like, well, these Haitians, they're doing the same thing that we're doing.
00:49:48
They're trying to fight off empires, and everything has been stolen for them.
00:49:52
So roughly half of them switch sides, and as far as I can tell, the ones who didn't switch sides, like functionally switch sides, they were like refusing to shoot.
00:50:02
And just kind of like-- - Yeah, they're just like, yeah.
00:50:04
Yeah, they quiet quit it.
00:50:05
- Yeah, they quiet quit the fucking invasion.
00:50:08
- Yeah.
00:50:09
- So when the revolution was won in 1804, Haiti gets a constitution, and it formally enshrined the Poles, the white Negroes of Europe.
00:50:18
- I love it.
00:50:20
- I love it.
00:50:21
That is a scab, man.
00:50:22
- Yeah, totally.
00:50:24
I'd be sketched out by them.
00:50:26
- Right, right, right.
00:50:28
I need y'all need to unpack this.
00:50:29
Every time you start doing music, you need to unpack where you got this name.
00:50:32
- Yeah, totally.
00:50:33
There's this Norwegian folk band, there's maybe Swedish Scandinavian folk band, that I listen to sometimes.
00:50:40
For a while before every single show, they would be like, we are not Nazis, and we are against Nazis, and we are against the fact that Nazis use our heritage to try and do racism.
00:50:49
Here's traditional music.
00:50:52
- Okay, here we go.
00:50:53
- Yeah.
00:50:53
- Yeah.
00:50:55
- That's-- - And they're not even like leftists or whatever, they're just not Nazis.
00:50:58
- No, they're just like just, we're not Nazis.
00:51:01
- Yeah.
00:51:02
- We still live on a planet that's the wrong side of history.
00:51:06
- Yeah.
00:51:07
- Yeah.
00:51:08
- And one of the Polish generals, who actually died a yellow fever, we don't know what he would have done, was the first known black Polish general, named Jablonowski.
00:51:17
Because again, he was just, but this guy, speaking of what you're saying, how these people went to the same schools as like, the Napoleon's or whatever.
00:51:27
- Yeah, yeah.
00:51:28
- Jablonowski had actually gone to school with Napoleon.
00:51:32
- Literally.
00:51:34
- Wow, okay.
00:51:35
- And Napoleon and all the other students had called him racist shit.
00:51:38
'Cause I also don't wanna paint Europe as like a weird post, you know, racial utopia, just 'cause there's black people there.
00:51:44
- Yeah.
00:51:45
- But Napoleon, yeah, used to call this guy racist shit.
00:51:47
And yeah, about 400 people in the end, a poll survived this, and they mostly stayed in a village called Kazale.
00:51:57
And one of the most interesting syncretic traditions that comes out of it.
00:52:00
'Cause like, we talked about Ezele and how there's like the black Madonna figure is one of the symbols, right?
00:52:07
- Yeah.
00:52:08
- It's a Polish icon of the Virgin Mary that goes back at least to 1430, but probably the year 326.
00:52:16
- Wow.
00:52:17
- And it's one of the most important Polish Christian pieces of art.
00:52:20
It's called the black Madonna of Chesta Hova.
00:52:23
And it's a super old painting that is a black Madonna holding a black Jesus.
00:52:29
I think that's important because you have all these people being like, you still run across people who think Jesus was white, you know?
00:52:37
They're dinosaurs if they do.
00:52:40
- Yeah.
00:52:41
- And like, in the year 326.
00:52:44
- We know.
00:52:45
- There was a painting of fucking black Jesus in black Madonna.
00:52:47
- Yeah, there was already a black Jesus.
00:52:49
- Yeah.
00:52:50
- Yeah.
00:52:51
- And this is one of the most important Polish icons.
00:52:54
- Wow.
00:52:55
What a connection, yeah.
00:52:56
So when they landed in Haiti, they was like, oh, you're not scary.
00:53:00
- Yeah.
00:53:01
- I actually agree with you all.
00:53:02
- Yeah.
00:53:03
- So again, I'm speedrunning the revolution and pointing out different bits of it.
00:53:08
Haiti becomes a country.
00:53:10
This guy Jean-Jacques de Célineuse, he's in charge.
00:53:12
He is controversial.
00:53:13
He's accused of genocide.
00:53:15
Interestingly enough, no one bothers accusing the French having little genocide on the island and focuses on him.
00:53:21
- Of course.
00:53:22
- In a public statement from 1804, he said, quote, liberty, independence, or death.
00:53:29
Considering that there still remains in the island of Haiti, individuals who have contributed by their guilty writings or by their sanguinary acquisitions to the drowning, suffocating, assassinating, hanging,
00:53:39
and shooting of more than 60,000 of our brethren under the inhuman government of Leclerc and Rochembeau.
00:53:46
This measure is entered into the order to inform the nations of the world that although we grant asylum and protection to those who act candidly and friendly towards us, nothing shall ever turn our vengeance from those murderers who have bathed themselves with pleasure in the blood of the innocent children of Haiti.
00:54:02
And so you have this, the massacre of 1804.
00:54:06
And basically he's like, hey, we should kill all the remaining French people on the island except all of the following list of don't kill these people.
00:54:12
And they killed between 3,000, 7,000 people.
00:54:16
A lot of people were like, the Salinas had to actually show up before people would really do it.
00:54:22
People were like, no, we don't know if we want to kill all these people.
00:54:25
The polls were of course legally black, so they weren't killed.
00:54:28
So we're the Germans apparently.
00:54:29
Just literally just because they had nothing to do with the slave trade.
00:54:33
Like I don't think they even fought.
00:54:34
I think they just wore the slavers.
00:54:36
And they spared many or most surgeons, women and children.
00:54:41
They absolutely killed a bunch of people.
00:54:42
And yeah, I don't know.
00:54:45
And then the Salinas, he regularly consulted with Vodu priests, but he also banned Vodu ceremonies and regularly had Vodu practitioners shop because he was afraid of being poisoned.
00:54:54
I want to read like whole books about a lot of these people, but I get the impression it's just kind of the classic power problem.
00:55:02
You can be a really amazing revolutionary.
00:55:03
And then once you have absolute power, you don't always do great.
00:55:06
Yeah, but the revolution itself scared the ever-loving piss out of white supremacists all over the Western world.
00:55:15
It emboldened abolitionists everywhere.
00:55:17
And the rest of the world has never forgiven Haiti for it.
00:55:21
But the people of the world fucking, oh, so much.
00:55:25
So the people who fought in that revolution, more than we can ever know.
00:55:29
Let's go away to put it.
00:55:32
Yeah, we've meddled in Haiti and Haitian politics ever since.
00:55:39
And like, do everything we can.
00:55:41
It's almost like, I just don't know what you gained from this to make sure that Haiti stays unstable.
00:55:49
Margaret, from the future here, there's a part of all of this that Prap and I talked about a couple days after the recording that I want to add in here,
00:55:59
about just how brutal the world has been to Haiti ever since.
00:56:03
In 1825, 20 years after Haiti's independence, the French kings and warships to Haiti to demand that they pay reparations.
00:56:10
Like Haiti had to pay reparations to France for freeing itself, 150 million francs.
00:56:17
This is 10 times the amount that the US had to pay to literally double itself with the Louisiana purchase.
00:56:24
And this reparations was about stolen property, including themselves.
00:56:31
Then, France gave Haiti predatory loans to pay it back, kind of prefiguring the modern international monetary fund style of predatory loans.
00:56:40
It took 122 years to pay off this loan.
00:56:44
And along the way, the US occupied Haiti violently for 19 years, from 1915 to 1934, using forced labor of Haitians, which killed just a fuck ton of people.
00:56:54
In the end, Imperialists basically just demanded Haiti pay 40% of its income towards its debt.
00:56:59
And so they finally paid off their debt in 1947 by crippling their economy.
00:57:05
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:57:09
My curiosity, of course, stays itching, but I think ultimately is what you're saying where it was just like, they threw off their slave owners.
00:57:16
And it was proof of concept.
00:57:19
And that's what we needed, you know?
00:57:21
Yeah.
00:57:22
And I think that's part of the-- you're like, well, what does the world have to gain to keep punishing Haiti over and over and over again?
00:57:30
And I think it gets back to that thing where at the end of the day, it's not about economics.
00:57:36
It's about white supremacy.
00:57:37
It is about-- you did that, and you were not allowed.
00:57:42
And you are punished forever for daring to challenge white supremacy.
00:57:47
And I used to-- it's interesting, because I see how white supremacy is this very important piece of the master oppressive world we have in front of us or whatever.
00:57:58
But I used to kind of think that it all came down to economics.
00:58:02
And just learning more and more than I'm like, no, a lot of it really just straight up comes down to racism and like white supremacy.
00:58:10
Yeah.
00:58:10
And to have to continue to bolster something that is materially false, which is, we are a superior species-- that white is a superior species than everybody else.
00:58:25
You have to keep adding little twigs and duct tape to keep that thing standing, you know?
00:58:31
And it's just like, this is at what point are you like?
00:58:33
This is absurd, guys.
00:58:34
Just-- like, sometimes I feel like the human in me wants to be like, you don't have to do this, man.
00:58:42
You don't have to do this.
00:58:44
You're like, I know you're exhausted.
00:58:47
You are exhausted.
00:58:49
You don't have to do this.
00:58:50
It's fine.
00:58:51
Yeah.
00:58:52
Yeah, you can just chill out with everyone else, you know?
00:58:55
Just relax, man.
00:58:56
Yeah, like, just-- here, have a beer.
00:58:58
Have a beer.
00:58:59
Just sit down, man, smoke this.
00:59:01
Like, just like, you see we're all having a great time.
00:59:03
We're all just-- we're all having a great time, OK?
00:59:06
Yeah.
00:59:08
And when you're saying earlier about how, like, just I can go about, it leaves you, like, this four-parter does not get into half of the shit that I thought it was going to.
00:59:18
And like, there's still so much about the way that the revolution itself unfolded on a political level larger than that.
00:59:25
I found myself focused in the end on the, like, the whoopsaw context, the, like, the things that built up to it, partly because I'm like, there's more modern overlaps than I expected,
00:59:35
especially although we're basically DEI and, like, the-- you know, there's all these things that I thought were really important.
00:59:41
And then I-- but yeah, I look at this and I'm like, I want to know more about Tucson and the, like, complicated nature of, like, coming to power where he was, like, look, oh, I'm fine to be French.
00:59:52
And I'm fine to keep the plantation system.
00:59:53
I just want people to get work, you know?
00:59:57
Yeah.
00:59:58
But then also, like, the implication, at least, some of the stuff I'm reading is that it would kind of became kind of a tyrant and so did Tucson and so on and so whatever.
01:00:04
But then I'm like-- But everything's so politicized with the Haitian revolution that it's, like, maybe more than any other topic.
01:00:11
I'm not sure.
01:00:12
I've probably run across other ones almost as bad as this, but, like, everything is so politicized and propagandized in different directions.
01:00:19
It's, like, just fucking hard to know, you know?
01:00:22
Yeah.
01:00:23
Without getting my degree in it.
01:00:24
And so that's, like, why I'm trying to focus on the, like, stuff I can feel a little bit more confident about, you know?
01:00:30
Yeah, what you can know, yeah.
01:00:32
Which is that it's fucking cool to have a revolution.
01:00:35
Man, well, these are, these are cool folks.
01:00:39
Yeah, yeah.
01:00:42
It is always moral and good to burn down the plantation that slaves people.
01:00:46
I mean, I feel like there are very few absolutes.
01:00:50
Yeah.
01:00:52
That would be, that would be one.
01:00:54
Yeah.
01:00:55
They're like stabbing the guy, being like, "But I always treat you good."
01:00:58
And you're like, "Yeah, I gotta kill you."
01:01:00
I don't know, man.
01:01:01
That's just, like, that's just kind of a moral truth sometimes.
01:01:04
You're like, "Yeah, but you fucking own me."
01:01:06
Yeah, here's the thing, man.
01:01:07
But if I, but see, if I don't kill you, then this guy's asking, and then that.
01:01:12
And then it's like, then we just all go home.
01:01:14
So I might as well, you know, this what we're gonna do.
01:01:16
Yeah.
01:01:17
That time's nine o'clock, you know?
01:01:19
Yeah.
01:01:19
I was just the arrogance of like being alone in front of an army and being like, "You wretch."
01:01:25
You know, you're not gonna know that.
01:01:28
And then to be like, "Okay, so if y'all stop, we won't punish you."
01:01:32
You just go back to your like, "Stop."
01:01:35
What?
01:01:36
Yeah.
01:01:37
Yeah, 'cause they had a chance out so many times.
01:01:40
They were down to be part of France.
01:01:42
They were down to hell.
01:01:45
They probably would have, maybe not.
01:01:47
Maybe it's possible that the slave system would have stayed if they hadn't fucking alienated all the free people of color.
01:01:53
Like, you know, like, it's possible.
01:01:56
And I would like to say that, you know, the slaves were the largest portion of the people doing, the fighting, you know?
01:02:03
Of course.
01:02:04
Yeah.
01:02:04
So I like to think they would have pulled it off anyway, but.
01:02:06
Yeah.
01:02:07
Well, thanks for coming along on this journey with me.
01:02:13
Oh, man, thank you.
01:02:15
You gave me an option and I'm glad I took this option.
01:02:18
This is a, this is fun times.
01:02:20
Yeah.
01:02:21
Well, I am fucking brain dead.
01:02:24
I have just.
01:02:25
I'm done.
01:02:26
Hold me.
01:02:27
I am like, I was like, prop hip hop.
01:02:30
I think hell yeah.
01:02:31
Yeah, everyone check out hood politics is prop.
01:02:33
It is an amazing podcast about current events.
01:02:36
And I have a sub stack.
01:02:39
You can Google it.
01:02:40
I got to figure out, I got to figure out a way to get you on.
01:02:43
Like, I got to figure out like, we got to find a topic that like worse.
01:02:46
What the angle is, yeah.
01:02:47
What the angle is, yeah.
01:02:49
I'd be into it.
01:02:50
Yeah, I figured out.
01:02:51
I think, I think the crowd would love it.
01:02:53
Okay.
01:02:55
All right, well, next week more cool stuff.
01:02:59
All right, everyone, let's go.
01:03:00
Cool people who did cool stuff is a production of cool zone media and more podcasts and cool zone media.
01:03:12
Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:03:19
What would you do if mysterious drones appeared over your hometown?
01:03:29
I started asking questions.
01:03:31
What do you remember happening on that night of December 16th?
01:03:34
I actually rotated around our house, looking as if it was appearing in each window of our home.
01:03:40
I'm Gabe Lenners.
01:03:42
From Imagine, iHeart Podcasts and Lenners Entertainment.
01:03:46
Listen to Obscuraum, Invasion of the Drums, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
01:03:55
Hey, it's Alec Baldwin.
01:03:56
This past season on my podcast, Here's the Thing.
01:04:00
I spoke with more actors, musicians, policy makers, and so many other fascinating people, like writer and actor Dan Acroid.
01:04:10
I love writing more than anything.
01:04:11
You're left alone.
01:04:12
You know, you do three hours in the morning.
01:04:14
You're right, three hours in the afternoon.
01:04:15
Go pick up a kid from school and write at night.
01:04:18
And after nine hours, you come out with seven pages, and then you're moving on.
01:04:22
Listen to Here's the Thing on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:04:32
Calling all Yellowstone fans.
01:04:34
Let's go to work.
01:04:36
Join Bobby Bones on the official Yellowstone Podcast for exclusive cast interviews behind the scenes insights and a deep dive into the themes that have made Yellowstone a cultural phenomenon.
01:04:49
Our family legacy is this ranch.
01:04:51
I'm a protector of my life.
01:04:53
Listen to the official Yellowstone Podcasts now on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:05:01
The OGs of Uncensored Motherhood are back and better than ever.
01:05:05
I'm Erica, and I'm Meala.
01:05:06
And we're the hosts of the Good Mom's Bad Choices podcast brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday.
01:05:13
Yeah, we're moms, but not your mommy.
01:05:15
Historically, men talk too much.
01:05:17
And women have quietly listened.
01:05:19
And all that stops here.
01:05:20
If you like Whitty Women, then this is your trial.
01:05:22
Listen to The Good Mom's Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday.
01:05:26
On the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you go to find your podcasts.
01:05:31
