Have you ever felt like you're constantly putting out fires at work instead of making progress? Kevin welcomes Don Kieffer and Nelson Repenning to discuss why so many workplace processes feel frustrating and ineffective, and what leaders can do about it. Drawing on decades of experience in operations and organizational design, Don and Nelson reveal why quick-fix workarounds backfire, how firefighting becomes the default mode of operation, and the hidden costs of constantly reacting instead of leading. They introduce the concept of dynamic work design and explain why breaking down silos isn't just nice to have, it's essential. Along the way, they share practical tools leaders can use to move from chaos to sustainable success.

Listen For

00:00 Introduction and the problem with roadblocks at work
03:33 How they met and started collaborating
06:07 The Harley-Davidson connection
08:32 The big idea behind the book
09:41 Why organizations assume the world is predictable
11:03 What dynamic work design means
12:21 The hidden cost of firefighting and workarounds
13:01 The firefighting trap explained
15:33 How firefighting becomes self-reinforcing
17:36 Why the dynamic appears in every organization
19:12 Leadership behaviors that unintentionally worsen it
21:12 Moving beyond blame to system thinking
21:56 The problem with silos in organizations
23:43 How work actually flows across silos
25:12 Visualizing knowledge work to expose inefficiency
26:04 Silos and identity in organizations
27:22 Why we must focus on system productivity
28:36 The matrix problem in modern organizations
29:12 Five elements of dynamic work design
29:48 Problem formation as an underrated leadership skill
30:24 Why framing the problem matters
31:23 Using conscious thinking to solve the right problems
32:36 Asking "what problem are we trying to solve"
33:20 What leaders can learn from this habit
33:48 Don and Nelson's hobbies outside of work
34:38 What they are reading now
35:35 Where to find their book and connect
37:19 Wrap up and invitation to subscribe

Their Story: Nelson P. Repenning and Donald C. Kieffer are the authors of There's Got to Be a Better Way: How to Deliver Results and Get Rid of the Stuff That Gets in the Way of Real Work. Nelson is the School of Management Distinguished Professor at the MIT Sloan School of Management. He is currently the director of MIT's Leadership Center and was recently recognized by Poets & Quants as one of the world's top executive MBA instructors. His scholarly work has appeared in Management Science, Organization Science, Administrative Science Quarterly, the Academy of Management Review, Strategic Management Journal, and Research in Organizational Behavior.

Donald C. Kieffer is a Senior Lecturer in Operations Management at MIT Sloan. He is a career operations executive and co-creator of Dynamic Work Design. Kieffer started running equipment in factories at age 17. He was VP of operational excellence at Harley-Davidson, where he worked for 15 years. Since 2007, he has been advising leaders in a variety of industries around the globe. His guidance was instrumental in transforming both the production and technical development areas of the Broad Institute, a Cambridge-based genomic sequencing organization, now an industry leader. He is the founder of ShiftGear Work Design, LLC, and teaches Operations Management at AVT in Copenhagen.