Darrell Bock:              Welcome to the table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at The Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And our topic today is sexuality and singleness, particularly adolescent sexuality and issues tied to that. And I have two wonderful guests with me today, Doug Rosenau, who is an adjunct professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, and is the co-founder of Sexual Wholeness, and is a licensed psychologist. Doug, welcome to the table.

Doug Rosenau:           Thank you, Darrell.

Darrell Bock:              And then Gary Barnes, who is Professor of Biblical Counseling at Dallas Theological Seminary, and editor, along with Sandy Glahn of a book, the chapter on the topic is what we're gonna be discussing, a book called Sanctified Sexuality: Valuing Sex in an Oversexed World. And the chapter that we're gonna be looking at, and the issues that it raises that we're gonna discuss is the chapter on Adolescent and Young Adult Sexuality that Doug wrote for the book. So I really appreciate your taking the time to do this in an area that not only young people, it's important, obviously, for the development of young people, it also is an important topic as parents think through these issues, and then obviously for college age students, et cetera. So I really do appreciate your coming in. And Doug, I think I want to start by asking what I often ask a guest when we have them for the first time, and that is, how did you get into this gig? What led you into this specialization?

Doug Rosenau:           Well, my parents are missionaries, and I went to Dallas Theological Seminary back in the early '70s thinking I might go overseas and teach in a Bible institute like my dad. But more and more, through my time at DTS, and proceeding, and after that, I just got much more interested in being a therapist and being a counselor, so was working on my doctorate at Northern Illinois University, and a buddy of mine went in town, Chicago, to Loyola Med School and took a Sex Therapy class. And Darrell, it just peaked my curiosity, and I really saw how needy the church was to deal with that area. So that was in '78, '79 that God laid a calling on my life to cultivate a sexually healthy church. And then that's evolved with writing and teaching and other things since then. But it's funny. Some of it was curiosity and some of it was just the really need to deal, the church to deal with sex differently and better.

Darrell Bock:              So talk about the founding of Sexual Wholeness. How did that come about?

Doug Rosenau:           Well, we … I've tried to think through how God has used my life, and I think the biggest way He's used me is to mentor and to tap people on the shoulders and say, "Could you come join? The church really needs sex educators and sex therapists." So, different Christian sex therapists, more evangelical Christians were saying, "There's no way to get really good teaching that isn't very, very secular, that doesn't have any Christian integration in it." And so we, couple buddies and I, Michael Systma, Debra Taylor, we decided that we would start the Institute for Sexual Wholeness. And it's located in Atlanta, but it really is a part of DTS, too, because Gary's there, and he teaches … we teach several classes there. So it was that need to try to provide training that could help people then go out and permeate the church with healthy sexuality.

Darrell Bock:              Okay. And Gary, let's talk about what motivated you to edit this book with Sandy Glahn and it's roots and origins.

Gary Barnes:              Yeah, thanks. It's interesting. Sandy and I were sitting in the faculty lounge one day, and we were reflecting on the cultural engagement, and the Christians needing some additional help to engage well. And a lot of well intended Christian leaders were actually, I think, getting in the way of themselves as they were trying to engage, and especially in areas of sexuality. And so we said, “You know, let’s start a course here at DTS." We had this awesome opportunity with awesome students to be a part of their training, and we could actually equip them to be intentionally engaged in a very constructive way. But we would need to really do a wide ranging equipping. And so the course, Sexuality and Ethics was born here. And we reached out and touched all of the people that we knew who were experts in wide ranging courses. And so Darrell, you and Doug were both contributors to that process. And so we had 22 different contributors in their areas of expertise for the course. And then each of them ended up making a chapter out of their contribution, and then that turned into the book, Sanctified Sexuality.

Darrell Bock:              So I'm assuming that when it's all said and done, now the book is gonna be a textbook for that course.

Gary Barnes:              It is now a textbook for that course.

Darrell Bock:              There you go. That's called killing two birds with one stone, Very well done. Okay. Well let's turn to the topic, and I'm gonna begin by asking Doug, you talk about outside in and inside out. And what I love about chapters that are well written is they have their own, oftentimes internal lingo, which they you get to unpack. So unpack outside in and inside out for us. And then, I know we brought really high level graphics to make this work. So, I don't know who has the graphic … there it is. Alright. This is the picture of one of the charts in the book, and so it's the best we could do at this point. So talk about outside in and inside out.

Doug Rosenau:           Well Darrell, I … Gary and I both, as we've conversed over the years, have been concerned that the sexual ethic, the kind of morality that the evangelical church has operated has been primarily behavioral, banning behaviors, what I call the carrot or the stick, where if you're a good boy or girl and do the good behaviors God will reward you, and if you don't God will hit you with a stick. And that ethic really hasn't worked well. And so the inside out ethic is the idea that what really matters is … and sometimes we use three “b” words, belonging, believing, and behaving. But what really matters is that inside relationship with God, and God changing our hearts and our minds, and really empowering us through the power of the Holy Spirit and redemption to be able to live out a sexual ethic that works. Because the outside in, which is my background, is basically, let's ban enough behaviors and enough don'ts and prohibitions that we understand a little bit of the mindset that God would like and the heart that God would like, and somehow if that permeates us, we're gonna find a better relationship with God.

And we're finding that that outside in, it's so sad, but in many ways we've lost chastity, we've lost a lot of our sexual ethic, because of this emphasis on behaviors, and rather than going inside out. I was teaching a youth group, and it was one of the mega churches here in Atlanta, Georgia, where I live. And so there were 300 teens. And I started out with saying, "Let's just try to think about God a little bit, and the creative Trinity, and give me some adverbs and adjectives that describe how you would believe your relationship with God would be, and who Jesus is." And they did real good. Holy, and faithful, and loving, and kind, and generous, and just all kinds of good adjectives and adverbs.

And then I asked the group, I said, "Why do you think God created sex?" And they were … kinda drew a blank. And I said, "Because He wanted to reveal Himself, and He wanted to reveal an intimacy. An so when you a man or a woman, you're bringing that masculinity and femininity to enrich every relationship of yours. And especially when we get into," and I was explaining horny to them, that all of us have the ability to be sexually attracted and aroused, and to act on that, and how really and truly all of our sexual behaviors should reflect who God is. So I said to them, "This coming week at high school, all these wonderful adjective and adverbs should describe your sex life, should really be a part of your heart, and how God can empower you to really be kind and patient and generous and not just try to score."

So I just feel like many people at times have had … like Larry Crabb, his book, Inside Out … differing theologians and wise people have talked about his inside out principle, but I don't think we've ever applied it well to our sexuality in a whole sexual ethic and how that works. And so Gary and I have done a lot of just discussing, and think this is just really in many ways a heart of single sexuality and a way to try to redeem chastity, because I think I'm much more likely … I will tell college kids at times, and I'm trying to teach the inside out … I'll say, "If all you're trying to do is not sleep with your boyfriend or girlfriend, we're in trouble. But what if God casts division as you put on Jesus and enjoy that love relationship, what if he casts division of you being unselfish and patient? Wouldn't that tremendously impact your sexual behaviors, much, much more than me telling you, 'Don't do something?'"

So that's part of my … Gary, add to it … but that's our inside out …

Gary Barnes:              Yeah.

Doug Rosenau:           It’s a different power. Will power is more that outside circle of behaviors. We're saying, "It isn't working."

Darrell Bock:              So Gary, I take it, when you mentioned earlier the book and saying we were more influenced by secular influences and that kind of thing than really bib