Host: Jeremy Rivera - Founder, SEO Arcade
Guest: Melissa Popp - Founder, Rickety Roo | @poppupwriter
Episode Length: 60 minutes

Episode Overview

In this deep-dive conversation, Jeremy Rivera and Melissa Popp explore the seismic shifts happening in SEO and digital marketing. From AI overviews decimating organic click-through rates to the fundamental question of whether SEO as we know it still exists, this episode tackles the industry's biggest challenges and opportunities.

Key Discussion Points:

• Why SEO was just "Google reverse engineering" from 2010-2021


• The impact of AI overviews on organic traffic (down to 1% CTR)


• How to adapt SEO strategies for LLMs and multi-platform search


• The death of top-funnel content and what replaces it


• Why the industry needs a value proposition beyond Google rankings

Best Quotes from This Episode

"We should be more in the ecosystem... our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?" - Melissa Popp

"From 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google. That was it. That was our job. We can't ignore other methods or other ways that search occurs." - Jeremy Rivera

"Chat GPT is now your most popular and least knowledgeable customer representative." - Referenced insight from Mike Buckby

"I question whether we actually see the death of the top of the funnel... we relied so much on top of the funnel to drive people in and guide them to the right place on our websites." - Melissa Popp

Key Takeaways & Action Items

✅ For SEO Professionals

• Expand beyond Google optimization - Start incorporating LLM visibility strategies into your workflows


• Learn automation tools - If you're not using tools like N8n for workflow automation, you're falling behind


• Shift metrics focus - Move from clicks/impressions to user capture and email acquisition


• Test LLM strategies - Start experimenting with content approaches for different AI platforms

✅ For Agency Owners

• Reposition your value proposition - Stop selling "Google rankings" and start selling comprehensive digital visibility


• Invest in multi-channel capabilities - Build expertise across social platforms, LLMs, and emerging search technologies


• Update client education - Help clients understand the new search landscape beyond traditional SEO

✅ For Content Creators

• Prepare for longer queries - Optimize for 30-40 word conversational searches, not just 2-4 word keywords


• Create bot-friendly content - Write with the understanding that AI will be reading and summarizing your content


• Focus on comprehensive coverage - Address topics thoroughly since users may get answers without clicking

Detailed Show Notes

[00:00 - 05:00 ] The Longest Year in Marketing

Jeremy opens discussing how much the SEO world has changed since their last conversation in December. Melissa describes this as "the longest year of marketing in a decade" due to:

• Integration of AI overviews in Google search results


• Every client asking about LLM visibility


• ChatGPT now using UTM codes (visible in GA4)


• The challenge of figuring out what still works vs. what's new

Key Resources Mentioned:

• Lily Ray's social media for AI overview fail examples

[05:00 - 12:00 ] Industry Response: Two Extremes

Discussion of how the SEO industry is responding with two distinct approaches:

1. The Deep End: People claiming to have cracked LLM optimization


2. The Practical Approach: Building on existing best practices while adapting

Melissa emphasizes that we still don't understand how LLMs work - "if you put 10 people side by side with the same query in an LLM, you're going to get 10 different answers."

Jeremy references Mike King's recent episode about SEO being "deprecated" but questions whether the complex solutions are just "make more different content in more places."

[12:00 - 18:00 ] The 90/10 Split: Enterprise vs Local SEO

Melissa breaks down the industry reality:

• 10% of SEOs work with enterprise clients where complex query fan-out strategies might be relevant


• 90% work with clients in local space where content quality is still poor and basic optimization wins

For local businesses in "Cheyenne, Wyoming," complex LLM strategies aren't necessary - foundational SEO still works because competition is weak.

[18:00 - 25:00 ] Historical Context: The Google Reverse Engineering Era

Jeremy makes the case that "from 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google" and that era is over.

Key points:

• SEO success was directly tied to understanding Google's algorithm


• The industry forgot other search engines existed during Google's dominance


• Now we need to think like digital marketers, not just Google reverse engineers


• The challenge is redefining our unique selling proposition beyond Google rankings

[25:00 - 32:00 ] The Click-Through Crisis & Googl