THE HUNTER AND THE HUNTED
Update: 2024-11-26
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In this episode, Dinesh discusses Jack Smith dropping both federal cases against Trump and shows why the hunter might now become the hunted. Dinesh reviews the abominable work of the January 6 Committee and examines how it can be finally discredited. Attorney Ron Coleman, counsel at the Dhillon Law Group, joins Dinesh to discuss the fate of the various Trump law-fare cases.
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00:00:00
Coming up Jack Smith is dropping both the federal cases against Trump.
00:00:04
I'm going to show you why the hunter may now become the hunted.
00:00:09
I'll review the Abominable work of the January 6th Committee, and I want to show you how it is now becoming finally discredited.
00:00:17
An attorney Ron Coleman, who's a counsel at the Dylan Law Group, joins me.
00:00:21
We're going to talk about the various Trump Law Fair cases.
00:00:25
Hey, if you're watching on YouTube a rumble or listening on Apple Google or Spotify, please subscribe to my channel.
00:00:30
This is the Dinesh D'Souza podcast.
00:00:32
America needs this voice, but times are crazy,
00:00:42
and a time of confusion, division, and lies.
00:00:49
We need a brave voice of reason understanding and truth.
00:00:53
This is the Dinesh D'Souza podcast.
00:01:01
We might have expected this to happen, and yet it signals the end of a certain era.
00:01:12
Jack Smith has made a motion to dismiss the January 6th case, the election interference case,
00:01:22
the Washington DC case, before Judge Tonya Chutkin, and she has granted the dismissal, quote, without prejudice.
00:01:33
Now, a little bit later, in the podcast, I'm going to have a prominent attorney Ron Coleman on, and he's going to, I'm going to ask him to explain the without prejudice.
00:01:44
What are the sort of legal implications of this, but I want to talk about the broader significance of all this, because what we are now is that both the big federal cases,
00:01:55
in fact, the cases that were really supposed to get Trump.
00:01:59
I think for the left, the other cases were bonus.
00:02:03
We might get him in Georgia, let's see what Fanny Willis can do, we might get him in New York, let's see what Alvin Bragg can do, but they were writing their hopes on this season prosecutor,
00:02:14
Jack Smith, and the media was just a gog and amazed and gushing over this guy.
00:02:21
I don't know if you remember the, there was a kind of a classic scene where CNN was commenting about Jack Smith, and all Jack Smith did was he went into a subway,
00:02:31
and he bought a $5 sub, and he was kind of eating it as he left the subway.
00:02:36
And then now I remember Jake Tapper and all these guys, John King, you know, they're talking about, I'm not quoting from CNN,
00:02:47
Jack Smith going to subway is a message to Donald Trump.
00:02:50
Jack Smith with no words and a simple $5 sub in his hand saying I'm not going anywhere.
00:02:56
So this guy was portrayed as the superhero of the left, and of course Trump was supposed to be the super villain.
00:03:05
Well, evidently the super villain has come out ahead.
00:03:08
In fact, Debbie was saying, you know, Jack B nimble, Jack B quick, Jack somehow failed to jump over the candlestick,
00:03:19
and so it's over in that sense.
00:03:24
It's certainly practically over for the next four years.
00:03:28
And another way to understand this is that in the election, the American people have delivered the biggest jury verdict of any case in all of human history,
00:03:39
which is basically not guilty.
00:03:43
Not only not guilty, but we are empowering the defendant to now rule over us, be the head of our country.
00:03:53
I mean, this goes beyond an acquittal and acquittal is basically the jury going, okay, well, we're going to let you back out of the street.
00:04:00
Good luck with you in your life.
00:04:01
It's a whole different matter to say we're going to let you out of the street and you could now become our boss and tell us what to do.
00:04:15
So this is an amazing turnaround.
00:04:15
Now, we've got to remember that Jack Smith, his case was always about the election.
00:04:18
And we see this in the various motions that he was filing.
00:04:21
He wasn't having much luck in Florida because he had a trump judge, I lean cannon and she was shutting him down, swatting him down, playing with him as I once said, cat and mouse.
00:04:31
But in Washington DC, Jack Smith had a whole different setup.
00:04:45
Not only the likelihood of a overwhelming democratic jury, but also a cooperative left wing judge who hates Trump, eager to get him.
00:04:48
And so Jack Smith was like, this is, you know, this is very fertile ground for me.
00:04:52
And so he was making motions.
00:04:54
Hey, listen, let's let's accelerate the pace of the trial.
00:04:58
Let's try to get this done before the election.
00:05:00
And Judge Jotkin was very willing to do it.
00:05:03
We've got to remind ourselves that it was only the Supreme Court ruling on immunity that through a major wrench into the plan, because now you have to separate all Trump's official acts from his unofficial acts and take out all the official acts because those are immune.
00:05:17
So there was in fact, once the Supreme Court made that ruling, there was no way the trial could go on before the, before the election, but they wanted it to,
00:05:27
they wanted it to.
00:05:28
And, and also it's worth remembering that if Trump had lost the election, they would have pushed full speed ahead.
00:05:36
So this was primarily about election interference, but at the same time, there was enough vendetta, enough venom, enough, let's get Trump that I do not think.
00:05:48
Some people say, well, you know, if, if, if, once the elections over Trump becomes irrelevant, if he loses the election, he's going to go his own way.
00:05:56
Nobody's going to be out to get him.
00:05:57
I don't think this is true.
00:05:58
It might have been true at the beginning.
00:06:00
If Trump decided, let's say, not to run, the left would have been like, all right, well, we're not, you know, these cases are not that important.
00:06:08
Kind of the way that for us, the Biden impeachment became less important when Biden decided not Biden to not decide Biden was twisted.
00:06:14
He was armed twisted into not running.
00:06:18
We, the Republicans basically sort of lost their enthusiasm for pushing forward on, on those, on those things.
00:06:26
Now, the left is really mad about all this.
00:06:29
And I see a lot of the leftists and never Trump are saying something to the effect, well, here's one guy Adam Parko-Menko.
00:06:37
Pretty crazy.
00:06:38
Someone can be charged federally with interfering in an election.
00:06:40
And those charges get dropped because they win an election.
00:06:44
What he's really saying is we had hoped to stop the guy before he could run at all and certainly prevent him from winning.
00:06:52
And now, you know, why should his merely winning an election somehow make the make the case go away.
00:06:59
Well, yes, if Trump had robbed a grocery store, I can see this point having some validity.
00:07:06
But when you are making a case against him, essentially to torpedo his chances for running.
00:07:11
When the case itself has no merit whatsoever.
00:07:13
And then the American people look at the facts.
00:07:17
And the left is at every chance through the media to educate the American people about what a horrible criminal Trump is.
00:07:23
And yet the American people go, nah, we don't think this is a big deal.
00:07:28
By the way, even people who didn't vote for Trump don't think it's a big deal.
00:07:31
There's been a lot of examinations where they ask people, what do you think about this?
00:07:36
What do you think about that?
00:07:38
And they have lots of reasons to vote against Trump.
00:07:41
But this is not really one of them.
00:07:45
Now, here's Brian Stelter, quote, "Special counsel, Jack Smith set out to prove that even presidents are not above the law.
00:07:54
Instead, his failed prosecutions ended up making Trump more powerful."
00:07:59
Now, this, I think, is actually true.
00:08:02
It's true because why?
00:08:04
Well, let's think about it this way.
00:08:07
In South Africa, when the apartheid regime rounded up Nelson Mandela and stuck him in prison.
00:08:13
And by the way, Mandela was, I think, 14 years in prison on Robin Island.
00:08:17
When Mandela got out, he was more powerful than ever.
00:08:20
Why?
00:08:21
Because by and large, the people rendered the verdict and said, look, the reason you got him is not because of anything really bad that he did.
00:08:28
But because he opposed your apartheid system.
00:08:31
So when you make this kind of a political strike against somebody and it fails, what it is is the people are affirming that they don't agree with you.
00:08:42
Trump is not the criminal.
00:08:43
In fact, you were trying to get him on a criminal scheme that you concocted.
00:08:49
So ultimately, Trump becomes stronger than ever.
00:08:54
Now, I do not think it is very much a Republican mindset to move on.
00:09:00
Okay, well, that's over a few.
00:09:02
Thank God.
00:09:03
Let's just forge ahead.
00:09:05
People voted for lower gas prices.
00:09:09
And there's a little bit of a temptation to let all this subside.
00:09:13
I don't think that that is the right approach.
00:09:16
I think that these people need to be held accountable.
00:09:19
And there are appropriate laws under which they can be.
00:09:24
And so what we need here is on the part of the Trump team, a very careful review of ways in which we can explore the question of which of these people can be faulted here and held accountable for breaking the law,
00:09:42
for breaking the very law that they claim to be upholding.
00:09:44
Because all right, no one's above the law.
00:09:47
We aren't you aren't either.
00:09:49
And so now it's time to see what we have on you.
00:09:53
We've seen what you have on us and you have gone after not just Trump.
00:09:56
You've gone after lots of other people.
00:09:58
You put Van and in jail.
00:09:59
You put Peter Navarro in jail.
00:10:01
You put a bunch of January six defendants in jail and protesters in jail.
00:10:06
You put some pro life activists in jail.
00:10:08
Well, actually now it's our turn.
00:10:10
And we're going to go about it with the same kind of careful review of the federal statutes to see where you have crossed the line.
00:10:19
And where you have crossed the line, you can now expect FBI agents to show up at your door.
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There was a recent survey of the American people about their views about January 6th.
00:12:37
Very interestingly, it showed that the American people are divided right down the middle.
00:12:45
About half of the public said, quote, too much is being made of this.
00:12:49
It's time to move on.
00:12:51
And the other half, roughly, said it was an attack on democracy.
00:12:58
So the view of January 6th appears to mirror the left right divide in American society.
00:13:07
And there's an article by Jonathan Turley, the political scientist Jonathan Turley, who says, why is this?
00:13:15
Why is it that the same event January 6th, which by the way, it was not some secret event.
00:13:21
If you could watch it as it happened, you could see both sides of it, if you will, you could see there were some scenes of people, you know, cops fighting with protesters, you could see that there were scenes of protesters breaking glass.
00:13:35
You could see that there was a shooting and killing of Ashley Bennett, you could see that there was a lot of pushing and shoving and there was a lot of smoke and a lot of gas,
00:13:45
but there were also scenes of.
00:13:48
Capital police high-fiving January 6th protesters leading them through the galleries, even ushering them to a degree.
00:13:57
And then there were the things that we saw that didn't happen.
00:14:00
No one said everyone has to leave right now.
00:14:02
There were no bull horns announcing that the place has to be cleared out.
00:14:06
So we all saw the same thing.
00:14:08
And why is there such a divided opinion about it.
00:14:12
And Jonathan Turley says a lot of the blame for that goes to the January 6th committee.
00:14:18
Now I think there's a lot of other blame that goes to the media and other institutions that have twisted and distorted the truths about January 6th.
00:14:29
But I think Turley's point holds and what the media was doing was amplifying the lies of the January 6th committee.
00:14:37
And then Turley does a kind of very nice quick overview of the January 6th committee and he says, look, this was from the beginning a staged operation.
00:14:48
Republicans wanted to put some conservative Republicans on the committee and basically the committee said no.
00:15:03
The committee was only willing to have never Trump Republicans.
00:15:04
In other words, Republicans who would take a singular point of view and agree with the Democrats, the Trump is awful.
00:15:06
It was a prefabricated narrative.
00:15:09
It was essentially the narrative of Pelosi and Schumer and Liz Cheney.
00:15:16
And these people manipulated the facts, excluded facts that were that would cut against their narrative.
00:15:23
A really good example is that they knew that at no point, this is just an instance of the kind of perverication falsehoods.
00:15:32
They allowed the falsehood to get out the Trump somehow tried to wrestle control of the presidential limousine and go to the Capitol, even though they knew full well.
00:15:43
And subsequently, of course, this whole thing has been discredited.
00:15:46
The guy driving the car said that didn't happen.
00:15:48
Trump never tried to wrestle control from me.
00:15:51
But the January 6th committee knew that they had already interviewed the guy, but they allowed the false narrative to go out.
00:15:56
Why?
00:15:57
Because they were putting out a manufactured propagandistic narrative.
00:16:02
They allowed the whole rhetoric of insurrection to get out there, even though they knew this was no insurrection.
00:16:09
In fact, there was a Harvard study that looked closely at the motivations of people in January 6th, and the conclusion of the study was, look, these are people by and large who were loyal to Trump.
00:16:22
They were dismayed by what they saw as a stolen election.
00:16:24
That's why they did it.
00:16:25
It had nothing to do with fomenting an insurrection.
00:16:28
They were not trying to take over the Capitol.
00:16:31
They were not trying to overthrow the government.
00:16:32
This is all nonsense.
00:16:34
And yet, this is the nonsense that was peddled in the media.
00:16:38
And peddled, I would argue, with nefarious intent.
00:16:40
Because the word insurrection isn't the 14th amendment.
00:16:43
That wasn't a word that just came out of nowhere.
00:16:47
They used that word knowingly from the beginning.
00:16:50
Why?
00:16:50
Because they recognize this is a guy that may want to run for election again.
00:16:56
We can try to get him off the ticket by invoking the 14th amendment.
00:17:00
If this was an insurrection, he was the leading insurrectionist.
00:17:04
And even though we don't have any clear evidence of him saying go inside the Capitol, nevertheless, in DC, that's not really going to matter.
00:17:12
And all we have to do is to get a jury to go, yeah, he didn't instigate it.
00:17:15
After all these were his people.
00:17:17
They showed up in DC.
00:17:18
They went to the Capitol.
00:17:20
After they heard him talk.
00:17:22
So somehow he signaled to them to do that because while they go to the Capitol.
00:17:31
So this is really what the left was going for.
00:17:38
They wanted the insurrection label or millstone to be hung around Trump so that he could be kicked off the ticket in key states, which would obviously make it impossible for him to win the election.
00:17:44
But also now become clear and thoroughly points out that Trump did in fact request 10,000 National Guard, the failure of security.
00:17:52
And quite honestly, I don't believe this was a failure of security.
00:17:55
I think by and large, the Democrats realize, listen, it'll be a really good thing for us if we let some of these people into the Capitol.
00:18:03
It's in the nature of crowds to push into a building if nobody stops them.
00:18:07
It's kind of like in a museum.
00:18:09
If there's an exhibit.
00:18:11
And you have no one is standing there saying, don't go this this hallway is closed.
00:18:17
People are going to go go down the hallway, check out the exhibit.
00:18:20
So there was a kind of natural tendency to want to go inside and raise a make a protest and talk to your representatives.
00:18:29
And so I think the Democrats realize, let's just leave the doors kind of half a jar.
00:18:33
Let's remove the barricades.
00:18:35
Let's see people get in because then they are walking into a trap.
00:18:39
Now, of course, it is our stupidity to walk into that trap.
00:18:42
I've never said the contrary, but the point here is that Trump was willing to secure the premises and the Democrats basically made sure that that didn't happen.
00:18:53
So put all this together.
00:18:56
And then, of course, there's also the issue of Ashley Baboot, which I plan to address in the next few days.
00:19:09
I mean, obviously we're going into into Thanksgiving week.
00:19:09
This might might end up being something I talk about early next week because the more we learn about the whole Ashley Baboot situation, the more you realize how terrible that was.
00:19:15
And the cover up involving the Captain Michael bird who fired that fatal shot at Ashley Baboot really without any warrant at all.
00:19:26
And so Turley's conclusion is really the same as mine, which is that the January 6th committee was a deceptive propagandistic operation from the outset,
00:19:37
but it was an operation that was completely necessary to cover up what actually happened on January 6th.
00:19:44
So once you have stuff that happened in January 6th, you've now got to make sure that none of that really gets out because otherwise the lesson of January 6th is going to be very different from the one that the Democrats want to put out.
00:19:56
They want to put out that the lesson of January 6th is a bunch of Trumpsters tried to overthrow our government led by Trump himself.
00:20:05
It was from the beginning a false narrative.
00:20:08
The January 6th committee knew that, but they were set up to try to promote that false narrative and prevent the truth from getting out.
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00:21:30
Guys I'm delighted to welcome a new guest Ron Coleman he is a prominent attorney council in the Dylan law group where he was previously a partner this is a firm with offices all around the country California New York Florida.
00:21:46
You can follow Ron on X at Ron Coleman or the website coldman co le m a n dash nation dot com he's host of the Coleman nation.
00:22:00
Ron welcome thank you for joining me I thought we had you on the podcast before I follow you on social media so I'm very familiar with the stuff you're doing.
00:22:09
And anyway delighted to belatedly have you on on board here and I wanted to ask you about the the Trump cases and in particular.
00:22:21
Let me start by asking you about the decision by Jack Smith to now drop the DC case the so-called election interference you know provoking an insurrection case we had already heard previously the Jack Smith was dismantling the Florida classified documents case so I guess this means that the two federal cases are now.
00:22:47
I don't know if on the shelf or in the waste paper basket what's a better way to characterize it but let me put the ball in your court and ask you where things stand with the two cases and what's the significance of it.
00:23:01
Then I shall just quickly make it clear that although our firm does represent the president with respect to various matters these are not among them and I'm not involved up to for myself entirely if even that it is probably more accurate to say the at least the Washington cases on the shelf and that's a little bit problematic and I'm referring of course to the without prejudice dismissal.
00:23:28
A lawsuit can be dismissed with prejudice or without prejudice without prejudice means it can be refiled under appropriate circumstances I think that's a constitutionally problematic the entire reason Jack Smith dismissed this at least the official reason we can speculate as to whether the real reason was it didn't.
00:23:53
Achieve the goal of preventing him from succeeding either as a technical matter to run for president or as a political matter.
00:24:03
But the the the nominal the nominal reason for the dismissal was hey it appears that the Justice Department's policy is that a sitting president may not be prosecuted or indicted.
00:24:19
So we can he's going to be president there's nothing I can do about that tries I'm a tries I might have.
00:24:28
So let's just dismiss this without prejudice but that prejudice meaning that at least in theory it can be refiled after Mr.
00:24:36
Trump's terminal office.
00:24:38
I don't think that's good enough not only not good enough because you and I support Donald Trump.
00:24:44
It's not good enough from a constitutional point of view the idea of immunity which is laid out in judge Chuchkin's opinion.
00:24:54
Is of course that the president should not be pulled should not be threatened by certainly a part that he's ahead of but also that he should not be threatened by.
00:25:08
The government when he is president having an open indictment against you in a matter regarding which you might yet be prosecuted when you leave office is a very substantial threat.
00:25:24
Now I will agree we don't want to live in a world in which merely by being made becoming president a person can magically make all potential crimes that he's committed go away I get that but under these circumstances and I would hope that the Trump team will push back on this I have no inside information again but it seems like from a lawyerly point of view the move to make here is to oppose the motion.
00:25:53
To dismiss on these grounds and again they can't loo they can't lose doing this because.
00:26:00
Chuchkin has already agreed that he had that that that has to be dismissed but.
00:26:06
Procedurally how they would go from here whether it would be a motion for reconsideration or an appeal I'm not entirely clear it does seem that there was a consent given to the filing so again I don't know procedurally what they have in store but that's the move here I think I do think it's a problem.
00:26:22
They may have made a decision not to deal with it right now.
00:26:27
That would be my take on Washington in terms of Florida that was going nowhere fast anyway and Jack Smith managed to get himself out of what was going to be a very embarrassing loss on the merits then on the facts.
00:26:42
Ron it seems pretty clear that this certainly the Jack Smith case in DC and probably the Florida one as well was aimed at making a difference in the election I say that because Jack Smith would want it to an accelerated schedule.
00:27:02
It seems like Judge Tonya Chutkin was up for it they both were sort of in agreement let's I think at one point judge Tonya Chutkin said something like not to release this information right before the election would be election interference in other words the American public deserves to know what a rotten scoundrel this Donald Trump is and maybe they will reconsider voting for him in November so all of this appears to have been built around the election.
00:27:29
And maybe I'll suggest further that had Trump lost the election I mean isn't it obvious that none of this would be happening they would in fact probably double down and go hey now here's our chance to get this guy and let's try to let's try to make this law fair work finally after all is there any doubt that they would be pushing forward if Trump had lost.
00:27:56
Well there's nothing to even speculate with respect to Washington because they walked into that court and said he's going to be president he's going to be immune we cannot prosecute him.
00:28:08
There have been some commenters I've seen who said they probably would have let this slide off because the only goal was to prevent him from succeeding in reelection I find that a little bit far fetched there has always been a decided viciousness about the entire way this has been handled it's been extremely personal.
00:28:30
The way they've gone after people including you who have anything to do with promoting or supporting Donald Trump in a and a visible way no they this was going remember the the prediction from some very despicable people five years ago Donald Trump along his life.
00:28:54
Lonely alone in a dark cell somewhere okay there there is such genuine hatred for him and for everyone he represents.
00:29:08
Ron just so we're kind of up on the overall landscape here let's visit the other cases so we know exactly where they are as far as I know with regard to the Georgia case.
00:29:20
The judge sort of put it on indefinite hold which is not to say that the cases gone away this is by the way not a federal case so presumably there might be some chances for it to push forward.
00:29:34
Update us on the Georgia and the New York cases because those are state cases what's going to happen in those areas well they're state cases but the Supreme Court's rule with respect to immunity is an absolute rule.
00:29:49
They apply in both state and federal court so they both have problems at the besides the fact that they were both patently.
00:29:59
Proposterous claims law on multiple legal grounds even according to the laws of the states of Georgia and New York.
00:30:10
Putting that aside that's like saying this well Mrs Lincoln this otherwise how did you enjoy the play putting those aside both of them relied on.
00:30:21
Evidence that should not have been made part of the record in fact the New York the Georgia claim essentially adopted the entire unlawful unconstitutional and crooked January six committee report.
00:30:36
This evidence now that's not even evidence under the under the laws of evidence you can't you couldn't convict a pick pocket based on that kind of third third party at a state state at a court state that's all hearsay it's absolute garbage but there's no question that there were many many immune actions that Donald Trump took that were the subject of the January six.
00:31:05
The report so Georgia is garbage and if that's got to be flushed out and with the change of the administration and the Justice Department I think there will be a conversation at some point about taking that and again the Justice Department although it is the chief executives law department it's not the president's private lawyer and everything needs to be done on the up and up.
00:31:31
And it transparently is possible I don't have any problem with retribution political retribution and where appropriate legal retribution because justice needs to be served there are ways to do this if the Georgia authorities are wise they will get this problem resolved on its own that doesn't mean however that there might not be civil rights claims or other investigations that my.
00:31:57
Of which the Georgia case might find itself to be subject of it's really problematic what they did there, especially the multitude of meetings between the prosecutors in Georgia and in New York with the White House really really unusual and problematic it needs to be addressed and hopefully also Congress will address it through its oversight plans in the terms of New York.
00:32:21
Very similar situation a very very flawed case and I everyone seems to agree that.
00:32:31
The judges this close to getting rid of it himself I'm sure that the Trump team is interested in ultimately vindicating the president so merely getting these cases dismissed to me if our making the decisions would not be enough I there ought to be review and there ought to be there ought to be.
00:32:50
And there ought to be a very vindication on many many levels.
00:32:54
It seems like in the New York case as far as I know the judges adopting a very similar approach to judge Chutkin in DC namely he's sort of holding on I don't think he wants to say you're off the hook I don't think he wants to say the cases gone so what he seems to be saying is I'll defer the sentencing I'll indefinitely defer the sentencing the other sentencing will come but maybe it'll come out.
00:33:19
After you leave the presidency so again the point you made earlier about keeping a kind of sort of damically hanging over Trump.
00:33:28
I mean in the case of New York the guy doesn't just have a case he's got a conviction so presumably the ball is in his court and he can just you know put down a sentence whenever he feels like it and it looks like he might want to try to hold on to that power.
00:33:42
He might but I think ultimately if he plays it that way he's going to have a problem with the appellate division of the first department which in oral argument.
00:33:53
It seemed I think to everyone listening that the defendant the appellate Donald Trump had by far the better of it that's that's the appellate department first division is the intermediate appeal court that deals with New York County which is the most prestigious county in what considers itself most prestigious state judicial system in the country.
00:34:19
It has a lot on its plate here in terms of recovering its reputation here so hopefully they rule they should have ruled by now.
00:34:30
Frankly I don't see any reason why there hasn't been a decision from the first department if it's anything like what oral arguments suggested it should be I'm looking forward to reading it.
00:34:39
That's very interesting now let's turn finally to this issue of you know you mentioned the word retribution and I know that there are some people the attorney Mike Davis for example who I said hey listen there are some federal statutes specifically which say that if government officials collude a conspire or work together to deny people their basic constitutional liberties.
00:35:07
This is a crime and a serious crime it's a felony now as you probably know Republicans are unaccustomed to deploying these statutes in the way the Democrats routinely use the accordion of the federal statutes to go after our side do you think that that mood has shifted and that there is a sense among the in the Trump team that hey listen you know what the real way to stop this is to subject these people to their own medicine a little bit.
00:35:35
To recognize that you can play at this game and we're not talking here about fabricating evidence we're talking about using actual statutes on the books to hold these people accountable good idea.
00:35:47
It is a good idea but it really we have to recognize that it's going to be an extremely difficult process because the Democrats don't have to swim upstream against every other institution in the country the law schools the corporate press notwithstanding the we are the press no we are the press stuff that's all very cute but the brand equity.
00:36:15
The network effects that these low rated but highly compensated TV talking heads have have to still be reckoned with when the New York Times and the Washington Post and the L.A.
00:36:27
Times will come out and condemned this politicization.
00:36:33
There's still going to be a certain amount of resonance and it's we always have to act differently not only because we insist on following the law but also because we are the underdogs they are the they are the establishment however this is the time both houses of Congress.
00:36:53
Majority Supreme Court and the White House if not now never it must be now everything is at stake not only vindication not only retribution not only feeling good not only you know hashtag winning everything is at stake.
00:37:09
Reforms need to be made in a balanced way that will benefit everyone and that's that that should be recognized hopefully by those people who still have their minds open which is.
00:37:24
Not a hell of a lot of people at this point the world is pretty much divided but it has to be done to us you know no question about.
00:37:39
And that we can expect that any attempt to do this will meet the full force of the legal establishment the media establishment is going to be a lot of Hollywood wailing but I think you are right on the other hand to say that whether it you know whether the.
00:37:53
In some ways the legal cases to me resemble the issue about the border when I first heard people talking about mass deportations I thought to myself really in a very traditional Republican way well that's never really going to happen because the moment they start doing that we're going to be subjected to images on CNN of wailing kids or please don't send me home.
00:38:12
And this will immediately cause the Republicans to run for cover in their customary way but I think what you're saying is there is a window of opportunity you may not be able to get it all but you better get started because because the way to make progress a lot of progress is to start by making a little progress and then to build on that by by by going further.
00:38:35
Guys I've been talking to Ron Coleman the attorney a host of the Coleman nation follow him on X at Ron Coleman is website Coleman dash nation dot com.
00:38:46
Ron we got to have you back but what a pleasure having you on and thanks for joining me great song you didn't ask good to see it.
00:38:55
I'm drawing on the paperback edition of my new book the the big lie and we're talking about the big lie about fascism and about Nazism and as I mentioned what the left has done since World War two is attempt a massive redefinition of fascism and even Nazism.
00:39:18
And what I want to do today is to focus on the key ingredients of this false definition to show you why these defining elements about fascism and Nazism don't describe actual fascism or actual Nazism so let's go through them one by one the first one.
00:39:37
Fascism and Nazism are defined by racism and anti-Semitism now this one I've already covered to some degree by pointing out that the fascists were not racist and they were not anti-Semitic neither one let's focus a little bit on on Mussolini here.
00:39:59
Mussolini was surrounded by Jews there were a lot of Jews who came out of the Marxist communist traditions and that and Mussolini came out of that same tradition so he had the early fascists in Italy were there was an over representation as we say these days of Jews and and if you look at Mussolini and his statements there's nothing anti-Semitic about them now he'll talk in generic terms about the superiority of.
00:40:28
Of the Italian race and and and the term race was at least at that time often used to mean nationality you'll even hear Churchill talk about our island race he doesn't actually mean white what he means is the British people and and so Mussolini uses some of that terminology but it's very telling that.
00:40:52
That later in the war as Jews began to flee Germany a number of them found refuge where in Italy in other words Jews fled Nazi Germany and took refuge in fascist Italy where Mussolini and Mussolini's people sheltered them help them get out of there help them escape and so this is hardly the signature of an anti-Semite.
00:41:20
I also mentioned that while a Nazi is is indisputably has this racist component and racist here I'm using in a generic sense to include anti-Semitism Hitler was also racist against blacks and so on but that really wasn't something he dealt with he'd mainly dealt with Jews.
00:41:38
So this is where we have to make a distinction between fascism and and Naziism all right let's keep going a second characteristic attributed by the left to fascism is that fascism is somehow very reactionary fascism wants to go to the past whereas and that's what makes it right wing but in fact the fascists never wanted to go to the past the fascists saw themselves as products of the future.
00:42:07
They embrace the enlightenment idea that the future will always be better than the past if you think about the framework of the enlightenment it was the things in the past were horrible in the past society was run by ignorant people and by priests lying priests and so the future will be run by the scientist and the philosopher.
00:42:30
Now here is the author Stanley Payne in his book a history of fascism I'm quoting him all of political all of Hitler's political ideas he writes had their origin in the enlightenment in other words the fascists were not reactionary the last thing that the enlightenment wanted to do is go back it wanted to go forward in all respects and if you look at the actual behavior of the fascists they were very much into new stuff.
00:42:58
In Italy for example they were into fast cars new technology new types of art and here I'm quoting the this is the Israeli historian zev Sternhel one of the great living authorities on fascism quote far from being reactionary the conceptual framework of fascism was non conformist avant garde and revolutionary in character.
00:43:26
So I take this you know remember the fascists like the Nazis were very much talked about a new society a new man creating a new future that would be different than the past they might build on some of the mythology of the past but their idea was to use the mythology as a guide to future greatness.
00:43:48
I don't know if you've seen the film cabaret but in it a young Hitler youth sings a admittedly beautiful valid but here is the theme of the ballad is the main refrain of the song tomorrow belongs to me and again you can see right here that the fascists are claiming not the past not even the present they're actually claiming the the future.
00:44:17
All right let's go to another ingredient attributed to fascism and Nazism which is authoritarianism this is the big one and of course we've heard a lot trumps and authoritarian I don't really want to waste my time defending Trump against these kinds of accusations I think you recognize that there's nothing authoritarian about Trump you didn't do anything authoritarian I really want to focus on whether or not authoritarianism is a defining feature of fascism and Nazism because that's the underlying assumption.
00:44:46
In other words the logic goes we all know that authoritarianism is a defining feature of fascism Trump is an authoritarian therefore Trump is a fascist and the normal defense against that is no Trump is not an authoritarian therefore he can't be a fascist really what I'm arguing is that authoritarianism is in no way an important distinguishing feature of fascism or Nazism.
00:45:11
Now of course I admit Hitler was an authoritarian Mussolini was an authoritarian but so were a ton of other people well Lenin was an authoritarian Stalin was an authoritarian I wouldn't call Lenin and Stalin fascists here there is some room for debate arguably there was a fascist streak in Stalin that you don't find in Lenin and this debate focuses on the fact that Lenin was an internationalist so he was an international socialist you always emphasize that the revolution has got to be global it might start in Russia but there's nothing unique about Russia per se whereas Stalin was really mother Russia and so when if you think of Naziism or fascism as national socialism in that sense Stalin was more of a national socialist.
00:46:00
Stalin cared about Russia he didn't really care about what happened beyond Russian borders in fact even his murderous sprees were against fellow Russians he wanted to arrest dissidents relocate people get rid of the farmers send people to Siberia essentially his venom was on his fellow citizens.
00:46:19
Now Franco was an authoritarian was he a fascist no was he a Nazi no now again some some people are well of course Franco was a fascist and the reason that you fall into this trap is you're applying the authoritarian because he's an authoritarian therefore he's a fascist no.
00:46:38
Franco was an old style Roman Catholic he wanted to restore the Ancien regime which is the the way things used to be which is an alliance of throne and altar so in other words throne refers to monarchy it refers just to to a single figure an emperor or someone like Franco in charge but allied with the church and allied not just not allied with the old church.
00:47:05
So a religious establishment wedded to a political establishment but that's not fascism must have any hated the church Hitler hated the church.
00:47:14
Pindersche and Chilli was an authoritarian not a fascist a Peron again there's some debate around Peron but again I think a lot of it is Peron's got to be a fascist because after all he's an authoritarian no if you look at Peron's policies yeah they were left wing they were socialist but they were what I'm getting out here is our people of all kinds of stripes.
00:47:34
Authoritarians from the beginning of time rule their societies Angus Khan was an authoritarian but he certainly wasn't a fascist so we've got to throw aside this authoritarian nonsense it is it is just not it is not an adequate definition of fascism fascism include that but so does monarchy so does aristocracy so do many other forms of government incorporate the idea of authoritarianism.
00:48:02
I'll also talk about one more definition and I'll do it very quickly nationalism because again Trump is a nationalist sure Hitler was a nationalist sure Mussolini was a nationalist sure but so have been the heads of hundreds of other countries in fact it's really hard to find a country where the ruler is not some kind of a nationalist in other words doesn't believe in their own country.
00:48:30
Go around the world right now most of the rulers around the world whether they are democratically elected or not our nationalist in some form in fact this is really why it's really weird that people act like it's strange for Trump to be America first have you ever met the leader of another country who isn't for that country first I haven't by doing you don't think Zelensky is for Ukraine first.
00:48:53
You don't think the G is China first Modi is India first Georgia Maloney is Italy first so you can just do a survey and you realize all these people were nationalist Churchill was a nationalist the goal was a nationalist George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were nationalists Mandela was a nationalist Gandhi was a nationalist and so I think you see where I'm going here.
00:49:18
If nationalism and authoritarianism are the defining elements of fascism you're going to mislabel not one or two but hundreds of other people who satisfy these definitions and yet in no meaningful sense can be called fascists.
00:49:35
And so this is all part of I'll keep going when I pick this up tomorrow is that what the left is doing is they are they are picking up the incidental features of fascism and Nazism and and deliberately confusing them with the true defining and distinguishing elements and you know this is kind of what I mean by that.
00:50:00
What I mean by that is that when you're defining something you've got to look at what it's core is you know if I say for example America is defined by farming this would be stupid of course we have farmers in America we have farmland but there's nothing unique about farming that makes it American everybody every other country is farmers so farming is hardly the defining feature of America if I was pointing to what makes America unique it would hardly be farming.
00:50:28
So that's what I'm getting at here the left has constructed a false definition of fascism and Nazism why because they want to take us off the scent they want us to look over here and not over there because if we looked over there we would see right away that the true definition that distinguishing features of fascism do not apply to us but do apply to them.
00:50:54
Subscribe to the Danish Dessousa podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify or watch on rumble youtube and say them now dot com.
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