In this bonus episode, Jane Perlez sits down with New York Times national security and White House correspondent David Sanger. In this candid conversation, they talk about his new bestseller: New Cold Wars: China's Rise, Russia's Invasion, and America's Struggle to Defend the West. Plus they discuss Sanger's views on where the US - China relationship is headed, how he worries about the friendship between China and Russia, and a party in New York City where talk turned to the subject of nuclear weapons. This conversation was recorded in August 2024 at a surf club in Sydney, Australia. 

Follow David Sanger on Twitter at @SangerNYT.

Sound design, original score, mixing and mastering by Rowhome Productions.

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