Ray Bollman discusses terms, trends, and policy issues relevant to understanding rural Canada.

Transcript

Brady Deaton: My guest today is Ray Bollman. He and I will be discussing issues related to rural Canada and policy. Ray has been the focal point in Statistics Canada for rural research and analysis since the 1990's. He initiated Statistics Canada's rural and small town Canada Analysis Bulletins in 1998 and there are 62 of these bulletins now available. We'll provide a URL to them on the website. Before his retirement, he was the Chief of the Rural Research Group at Statistics Canada. Hi Ray and welcome to FARE Talk.

 

Ray Bollman: Yeah, thanks for calling.

 

Brady:  Ray, let me begin by asking you, how should we think about rural? What is rural?

 

Ray Bollman: Well different people, we do it differently. I'm an economist, so I would look at the price of rurality and I would look at distance, density and the distance to density. And that's sort of the way the World Bank Rural Development in 2009 on Reshaping Economic Geography clearly stated the issue of regional geography as in density and distance to density. And so density then is the advantages of glomerated economies and the distance to density, there's economic distance, price and time to get there, but there's social distance and psychological distance to density. So I look at it as distance in density.

Some people will talk about is as identity. So if you feel rural, even if you're living in a city, you might behave differently. I would say gee, you're facing the same relative prices in the city, whether you feel rural or not, so I don't think you'd behave differently. Maybe that's an empirical question.

 

Brady: So for some folks, when you talk about glomeration effects being associated with the density character of urban and then lower density in rural, what are we talking about? A glomeration effects occur in urbanized areas ...

 

Ray Bollman: It’s because it's a lower cost of people living together and working together. Firms, if they're beside each other, in much the same industry have lower cost because they have better access to specialized labor force. Their employees would go to the same church, or drink at the same bars, or curl at the same curling rinks, and over the conversation just exchange of tasset knowledge. They would just exchange tidbits on how things are done in their particular occupation or their particular industry. And if that firm was in a more remote area, that exchange of tasset knowledge's could not take place. You could read on the internet the written knowledge but the embedded or tasset knowledge that the specialized workers have, that they do not write down, just cannot be exchanged over the internet, you have to do that at the elbow of the master, if you will, and that's a big advantage of a glomerations and having both people and firms being close together.

 

Brady: So, I guess, part of the idea, is if you're in an urban area, if you take the same person, or the same firm, from a rural area and move them to an urban area, they may be more productive. Because of the exchange of this tasset knowledge and the interactions with experts in the area.

 

Ray Bollman: Yep.

 

Brady: Yeah.

 

Ray Bollman: Yep. More productive or lower cost unit output, same thing. That's right.

 

Brady: Okay so that's part of the density issue of rural. And the distance, can we think about that, and you mentioned this is cost, takes longer to transport good and information to rural areas.

 

Ray Bollman: Yeah, to rural areas and from rural areas. So in some sense, the high price distance is an advantage for some rural firms, cause they have a distance tariff and so you might be able to set up a business in a rural area because it's too expensive to import that service, or that facility, yeah that service from an urban area. So the distance is a nice tariff barrier. But the other side is, if you're producing something in a rural area, it's going to cost you something to ship it to the urban market. And it's going to cost you something that you're gonna have a harder time finding out how that niche, or that product, or that market, is developing and how you should change your product. If you're living in the middle of the market, you have an intuitive feel how that market is changing but if you're living away from the market and shipping it to that market, you have harder time just being with the market and I don't know ... what color you have to do, what your promotion should be, how fast you have to change your good or service. So it's just not being aware of the changing market if you're at a distance and so there's a bit of higher cost on the market research side.

 

Brady: Now I notice in a number of your writings, and we'll makes these available on our website, but you make the point, I think it's a really important one, that rural is not necessarily low density and remote, sometimes it can be high density and remote. And talk to me a little bit about those two issues.

 

Ray Bollman: Yeah well, and one of the papers you might reference there set up a little grid, and so two by two table, and you could be, if we think of rurality as density and distance to density, so on the table, one dimension is from high density to low density, so as you get to more low density or more rural. But some of those low density places, those small villages, could be in the commuting shadow of a big city. So some of us, if we took our spouses to these small villages that are within the commuting shadow, they would see a cow out the front window and say gee, this is really a rural place.

And your kids would probably go to a fairly small school and have the benefits of a small school, but maybe the cost of a small school. But there might be benefits of a small school. If you wanted to become the editor of the school newspaper, I'm sure you could get on the committee at least. And if you wanted to play basketball, I'm sure you could get onto the team. And but your spouse would have access back to the big city for a big city job, you know brain surgeon, NHL trainer, or whatever.

So if you're a small community, small density, low density community, within the commuting zone of a big place, you have the benefits, if you will, of low density, and the advantages of short distance to density.

So you could go the other way on that grid, from high urban, that's big places, to high rural, which would be long distance. So you could be a long way from a metro center and have a pretty dense town or city. And maybe you think Dawson, Manitoba, or Mattawa, Ontario, or places like that 6, 7, 8. 9,000 people, you might have two high schools in those places that are very competitive basketball teams, and you'd have trouble making the teams. But it's a rural, and small town economy, a small town labor market and there'd just be no jobs there for your professional [inaudible 00:07:34 ]. And if you became the teacher or the principal of the school and your spouse was a dentist, there's probably already one dentist in that town and there'd just not be a job for your spouse. And they'd be too far away from the metro area to commute. So there's a fairly high density place, looks a bit urban in some sense, but no distance, long distance to a metro job.

So you can have small towns close to areas, or you can have big towns away from metro areas, two different types of rural places and different types of options, different types of opportunities, I guess different types of policy options too.

 

Brady: I think that's really important point. When I was working, in Central Appalachia from 1995 to 1997, I was confronted with this issue, that there were pockets of real dense housing in relative rural areas. And this was particularly challenging, because the issue that we were working with was trying to address sewage runoff into the river. And the primary way that was being thought about how you deal with this in rural areas, is to put in septic tanks. But in this area of Central Appalachia, where there were pockets of very dense housing, as a result we refer to them often as cole camp areas where houses were developed, basically row houses in a rural area, to house workers that were working in the mines, there wasn't the kind of space to put in a septic tank.

 

Ray Bollman: Right, right.

 

Brady: And when you met, often times, with people that were involved in it, their approach to the problem was, oh well this is a rural area, and the way you deal with a problem is to put in septic tanks. But the density was such, within this rural area in the sense it was remote from major cities, that the density was as challenging as any urban area.

 

Ray Bollman: Exactly. And the general rural observation is if you seen one small town, you've seen one small town. And they're all different. And if you're sitting in the 13th floor of the metro center worrying about rural policy, the capital city worrying about rural policy, rural areas are so heterogeneous that you just can't say, well if it's rural, obviously it's low density and sparse and therefore septic tanks. Because it's just a lot of differentiation out there.

But trap sets the first law of statistics, right? The within variability is always than the between variability, so the between variability between urban and rural, on average, is not very big. But the va