Walter Isaacson: Who is Elon Musk?
Update: 2025-02-02
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00:00:00
It's the Smuckers Uncrustables Podcast with your host Uncrustables.
00:00:05
Okay, today's guest is Ruffer on the Edges.
00:00:09
Please welcome crust.
00:00:10
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00:00:11
Today's topic.
00:00:13
He's round with soft pillowy bread.
00:00:14
Hey, filled with delicious PB&J.
00:00:17
Are you talking about yourself?
00:00:19
And you can take him anywhere.
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00:00:21
And we are out of time.
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00:00:58
Let's bring in maybe the country's number one biographer.
00:01:01
Certainly what he's done has been nothing short of prolific.
00:01:05
His latest, his latest project was following around and making sense of one of the most fascinating people of his generation.
00:01:12
The Benjamin Franklin of this generation, so to speak, Elon Musk.
00:01:16
He teaches at Tulane.
00:01:18
Got a family member there right now.
00:01:20
And Walter Isaacson joins us.
00:01:22
Walter, welcome to the Brain Kill Me, Joe.
00:01:24
Hey, Brian, thank you, and I can't wait to meet your family member at Tulane.
00:01:28
Oh, yes.
00:01:29
Go down and teach my class now.
00:01:30
Yeah, he's in the last year law school there and I'll be coming down for it.
00:01:34
May hopefully you maybe meet with the Super Bowl.
00:01:36
But oh, yeah, I'll see you at the Super Bowl.
00:01:38
Absolutely.
00:01:38
So, so Walter, I love Steve Jobs and it gave me such a competence on and knowing that he was alive and commissioned you to write a tough book on him in real time.
00:01:47
And he said, be as tough and just be as fair.
00:01:49
That's only wanted.
00:01:50
And then you take on an equally fascinating person with Elon Musk.
00:01:55
First off, how did you get him to agree before we talk about what he's doing?
00:01:59
It was really interesting, Brian.
00:02:01
I talked to him and he said he wanted to do it.
00:02:04
So we had an hour long talk on the phone.
00:02:06
I said, here's the deal.
00:02:07
I don't want to do this based on 10 or 20 interviews.
00:02:10
I want to do this based on two years of being by your side whenever I want, living in an air stream trailer next to your house, born in noon and night.
00:02:18
And he went, OK, and then I said, but here's the other part of the deal.
00:02:23
I want this to be a fair book.
00:02:24
And I don't want you to read it in advance or have any control over it.
00:02:28
And he went, OK, that was kind of surprised.
00:02:32
And then I went talking to friends about half hour later.
00:02:35
They said, we didn't know you're writing a book on Elon Musk.
00:02:37
I said, what do you mean?
00:02:37
He said, he just tweeted that Walter's writing my biography.
00:02:40
So that's how we got going.
00:02:42
Well, and then you did and and talk about how your relationship evolved.
00:02:46
How did you get his trust and what was it like over those two years before we get into what he's doing now with Trump and Germany and everything?
00:02:52
I sat by his side and just watched them.
00:02:56
And you've seen American journalists these days.
00:02:59
They're very few that try to do what I did, which is just sit by somebody, get it exactly right, take notes.
00:03:06
And I always stayed in the background a little bit.
00:03:10
But there was no meeting he ever kicked me out of.
00:03:13
And after every meeting, he would sit and talk and reflect and explain what had happened.
00:03:19
And the book, I think, is, you know, and I think he feels that way too.
00:03:24
It's warts and all, but it's right on fair.
00:03:27
I just try to tell you the story.
00:03:29
I'm a New Orleans guy.
00:03:31
And so I'm not there to preach at you.
00:03:33
I'm there to say, hey, this is a really interesting story.
00:03:36
Watch him how he does the Raptor engine watch how he does the full self driving.
00:03:41
Watch how he goes into Twitter and changes it.
00:03:44
And then you make your own decisions.
00:03:46
You thought you had a great book and then he gets involved with Twitter.
00:03:49
And I'm thinking, myself, this probably just extended your the whole journey for another six months as he does one of the most fascinating thing.
00:03:57
I mean, what was that like?
00:03:58
Do you think you would done it all of a sudden?
00:03:59
Your book just got even better and more exciting.
00:04:02
So in late 2022, I'm with him and he's just the cop, the richest person on earth, person of the year at time and other places.
00:04:11
And I said, well, you must be satisfied.
00:04:13
You know, you've hit all your marks and he said, no, whenever I play a video game, I can never be satisfied at the level I'm at.
00:04:20
I've got to move to the next level.
00:04:22
I don't like calm.
00:04:23
I don't like success.
00:04:25
I like drama.
00:04:26
I like challenge.
00:04:27
I said, what do you mean?
00:04:27
He said, well, I'm secretly buying.
00:04:29
I'm buying up shares of Twitter.
00:04:31
And that in some ways help bring the book all around because it gave you the political and personal aspects of them,
00:04:42
an emotional aspect, which you don't have just with rocket engines or electric cars.
00:04:47
And the way he went into Twitter is a playbook for what he's doing right now in the federal government, which is delete every unnecessary part question, every unnecessary requirement.
00:04:58
And if you're not ripping away more than is wise and you don't have to add some stuff back in the end, then you're not being bold enough.
00:05:07
This is why your book helped me so much is because he comes in.
00:05:11
He gets close to Trump and he puts the money in but he makes his appearances and they're getting along.
00:05:16
And when he says, I want to get into efficiency.
00:05:19
I remember listening to that on his on his live Twitter broadcast.
00:05:22
I don't know what he calls it.
00:05:23
I forgot.
00:05:24
And he said, I'd like to help you out and Trump just went over that and he goes, no, no, I'd like to help you out.
00:05:28
I like to do efficiency.
00:05:29
And I'm thinking to myself normally, why would a guy who thinks so big and thinks about transforming the electric car business and putting going to space?
00:05:36
Want to do something as seemingly boring until you realize the reason why Tesla worked is because he would sleep on the manufacturing floor.
00:05:44
He would stare at the production and think, why does that screw need to be needed?
00:05:48
Why can't we get this lighter?
00:05:51
Why can't that why can't the design be better?
00:05:53
And you realize he likes the detail of all these things.
00:05:57
He does focus on leaning out things and making it more efficient.
00:06:00
You know, God is in the details and the devil is in the details.
00:06:04
I really appreciate you read the book that well because indeed that's what he does.
00:06:09
He sleeps on the factory floor.
00:06:11
And you know what?
00:06:12
He slept in the old executive office building last week, a couple of times because he's working on government efficiency.
00:06:19
There's a quality about mosque in which he is all in.
00:06:23
And I find that frightening at times.
00:06:25
I mean, look, the book also says, hey, this can be unnerving because when he set himself on a mission, whether it's getting to Mars or cutting two trillion from the federal budget,
00:06:35
he, he doesn't sort of say, let me balance things.
00:06:39
Let me be nuanced.
00:06:40
He leaves some rubble in his lake, but he knows that's the only way you can get major things done.
00:06:45
So I'm reading the story in the Washington Post today.
00:06:47
And I thought Doge was going to be studying things and recommending.
00:06:51
I did not know they were a full in this aggressively.
00:06:55
Do you know that whole, I'm sure you do.
00:06:57
Do you know that he is looking at that federal workforce of 2.3 million?
00:07:02
He already set up a way to lace them all on the same email with his staff and a human resources guy from SpaceX, who you probably know.
00:07:10
And he looked and says guy, I am building.
00:07:12
Yeah.
00:07:12
And he says, Hey, guys, if you want to quit, we'll give you six months.
00:07:15
You have to come in.
00:07:15
If if you're not going to come in, you're going to be fired.
00:07:18
And I didn't know.
00:07:18
No, he did not check with the White House.
00:07:20
You know, in the book, he goes into Twitter about a week after the acquisition.
00:07:27
He's actually been staying there overnight.
00:07:29
And he says, all right, we're going to do a memo called a fork in the road.
00:07:33
And there it is in my book in which he and his young cousin and a couple people just close core of people at Twitter, figure out how you're going to fire a large percent of the workforce by saying you've got to opt in and decide you want to stay on these condition.
00:07:49
And the memo that he wrote and sent out two days ago had the same title to it, a fork in the road.
00:07:57
So the playbook of everything he is about to do, if I were a government employee, I'd read the playbook because you can tell what he's about to do from what he did at Twitter and what he's been doing at SpaceX and Tesla.
00:08:09
Well, Walter Isaacson, if you told me you were doing that at your company, I'd say, okay, but I don't think it's ever been done like this at a college.
00:08:17
Excuse me, at the federal government.
00:08:20
And I remember if Teddy rose up, that's the big issue.
00:08:22
Just real quick is this what we're going to see because he kind of owns SpaceX.
00:08:28
He certainly controls and sort of owns Tesla.
00:08:31
He doesn't own the federal government, but you pointed out rightly.
00:08:34
He's put his people, these young engineers, all of whom I know are at the office of personal management.
00:08:39
They're at the Justice Department.
00:08:40
They're at all of these agencies.
00:08:43
And he is drilling down with his own people and these agencies.
00:08:47
So can he do it?
00:08:48
So they have some of them under Union, he transferred 50,000, 50,000 to at-will employees.
00:08:54
I don't know if that's how it going to fly.
00:08:55
So he's telling all these people come to work, only 3% go to work.
00:08:58
Come to the workplace where you're fired.
00:09:00
And by the way, if you want to just quit, here's six months you can quit.
00:09:04
He also renamed the US Digital Services to US Doze Services.
00:09:08
Where he's sitting down with the government's digital people.
00:09:12
And essentially they have to justify their job.
00:09:14
I mean, I love this that he's doing, yeah.
00:09:19
Absolutely.
00:09:20
And what he's done is he's found that even what you said earlier in this show about sending an email to all federal employees, that was impossible to do.
00:09:28
Both technologically and people thought it might be against the regulations and must just said, I want to find a way to do it.
00:09:34
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00:11:41
So do you think, just just now, this is your opinion from what you know about Trump and what you know about must?
00:11:47
The fact that he did not, the White House was caught off guard.
00:11:49
Not that they would be disagreed with him or slowed him down, I don't know.
00:11:52
But do you think we're already seeing some issues with a born to born leaders?
00:12:00
>> Yeah.
00:12:01
I mean, I think President Trump hasn't shared the limelight or power much during his career.
00:12:07
And Elon Musk has never worked for anybody in his career.
00:12:11
So it's not a naturally stable molecule.
00:12:14
But at the moment, they seem to have strongly bonded.
00:12:17
I think Elon Musk can probably be at the White House any time and even, you know, stay over if he needed to.
00:12:24
And that bond continues because they both need each other.
00:12:27
I think that there is a possibility that must does something without checking with Trump.
00:12:34
Or you saw it happen on a couple of issues where Musk got ahead of Trump or on side Trump.
00:12:41
You know, Trump is a interesting character.
00:12:45
He likes effective people, but then he can come down hard.
00:12:50
It's interesting.
00:12:51
Steve Bannon tried to get Musk moved out of the orbit because Bannon is a different type of populist, you know, nationalist populism.
00:13:00
And Musk ended up being there in front of the comor secretary at the inauguration with Steve Bannon not there.
00:13:08
So the moment is working out for Musk.
00:13:10
>> Yeah, believe me, Steve Bannon has got some issues and he's already turned on Trump once.
00:13:16
I don't know why he was let back into that orbit, it doesn't make any sense.
00:13:19
So one thing I think is the biggest joke and I think, Walter, you agree with me.
00:13:23
There is no way he was giving a Nazi salute.
00:13:27
Guys, the only thing that gets him excited where he loses control, I think is when he gets him front of crowds.
00:13:32
They're chanting his name.
00:13:34
He sees the emotion that Trump brings up.
00:13:36
I think he gets moved by it.
00:13:38
In my mind, there's no way he was doing a Nazi salute.
00:13:42
What about you?
00:13:43
>> He was a very lonely child, didn't have many friends, grew up in the corner of the book, sitting in the corner of the bookstores, you know, from my book, reading X-band comics and pretending he was a superhero.
00:13:54
So you're right, he gets supercharged when he's in front of crowds.
00:13:58
And this is a whole new experience to be at rallies cheering for him.
00:14:02
But no, I agree, I can't imagine why intentionally he'd be giving a Nazi salute.
00:14:08
So now that was not some intentional Nazi salute.
00:14:14
>> And if people really care, they'd call you and say, you spend two years and what do you think, of course, people don't deny, if they give it Nazi salute, they usually embrace it.
00:14:22
According to the black and white video I've had a chance to review, here's Elon Musk, a couple of days ago, addressing the German people, cut 35.
00:14:31
>> Well, first of all, I wanted to really say that I'm very excited for the AfD.
00:14:38
And I think you are really the best hope for Germany.
00:14:43
I think something that is just very important is that people take pride in Germany and being German.
00:14:54
This is very important.
00:14:57
It's okay to be proud to be German.
00:15:00
This is a very important principle.
00:15:02
>> Anyone on to say this, cut 36.
00:15:04
I think there's frankly too much of a focus on past guilt and we need to move beyond that.
00:15:11
If people, children should not be guilty of the sins of their parents.
00:15:16
>> Your thoughts about his statement, they created so much controversy?
00:15:20
>> Well, that's what I agree with, and it's not up to me to be preaching my own beliefs.
00:15:26
I think that the Germans have to figure out how to wrestle with their past and do it.
00:15:33
And I think what Musk taps into is global phenomenon that's happening, which is a renewed sense of nationalism.
00:15:42
I mean, this means too much immigration can hurt a sense of a nation.
00:15:48
Many other things reduce nationalism.
00:15:53
And whether it's about immigration in England or with Maloney, Prime Minister Maloney is friend in Italy or with the German AFD party,
00:16:03
he has taken much more of an anti-immigrant nationalist stance.
00:16:08
You know, for me, I would not wander into the territory of should you still be remembering the Holocaust because I believe you should be.
00:16:18
>> Right.
00:16:19
I guess his point is, guys, if you're going to reach your potential, the Germans in such a wallowing, don't focus on World War II.
00:16:27
And that's always a third rail.
00:16:30
So lastly, I thought about you too in the Oval Office last week, after they announced that $500 billion power center with Altman and Oracle CEO Ellison,
00:16:41
and as well as I think the Japanese leader, Elon Musk came out and said they don't have the money and it's not going to work.
00:16:48
Here's what Trump said.
00:16:49
>> Mr.
00:16:50
President, does it bother you that Elon Musk criticized the deal that you made publicly,
00:17:03
that he said that he tweeted that?
00:17:05
>> No, it does.
00:17:06
He hates one of the people in the deals.
00:17:07
>> Have you spoken to him since then?
00:17:08
>> No, no.
00:17:09
Well, I spoke to Elon, but I spoke to all of them actually.
00:17:10
No, no, people in the deal are very, very smart people, but Elon, one of the people he happens to hate, but I have certain hatreds of people too.
00:17:13
>> So Trump took it in stride.
00:17:14
He used to never do that.
00:17:16
What's with him in Altman, I mean, is it really that bad?
00:17:20
>> Yeah, they're two chapters in the book about Elon Musk and Sam Altman, and they're exactly played out on stage this past week.
00:17:33
They started together, open AI, which as you know, was supposed to be an open source system just like the one the Chinese released this past week, and it was supposed to be a non-profit.
00:17:44
Sam then turned it into a for-profit and made it a close rather than open source code.
00:17:51
That truly offended Musk, and even that first week he's in Twitter, and trying to fix Twitter.
00:17:58
I'm there, and he's insisting that Sam Altman come over and bring the founding documents of open AI, because he wants to get into a fight, a lawsuit with Sam Altman over that.
00:18:09
And so I find it interesting that Trump can be a muse, hey, the people I've hated, people whatever, and he knows for well that Elon cannot stand Sam Altman,
00:18:20
and maybe having Sam Altman there doing that big deal in the Oval Office was a way of Trump reminding people he's the one in charge.
00:18:29
>> So he writes about people of the past like Benjamin Franklin, Steve Jobs, and Elon Musk.
00:18:35
Projects who are too overwhelming and intimidating to most, including me, but he does it, and you seem to enjoy it.
00:18:42
Walter Isaacson, thanks so much.
00:18:43
If you want to know about the most impactful person in the world today, in a way you never thought possible, pick up Walter's book.
00:18:48
Walter, thanks so much.
00:18:49
I know we can go for another two hours, and hopefully when you're in New York, we can.
00:18:52
>> All right, Brian, thank you so much, man.
00:18:54
>> All right.
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