Who Gets To Ski?
Update: 2025-01-22
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Description
I grew up skiing at a mid-size mountain in the middle of Idaho. I wasn’t ever an athletic kid, but skiing — it made me feel fast and really good at something. I loved it: the routine, the long slog to the mountain, the Cup of Soup for lunch, the crappy hotels, the freedom. But the ski culture that I grew up with is largely gone, at least in the U.S. — and I’ve spent the last few years coming to terms with how industrial shifts, climate change, conglomeration, the explosion of the unregulated short-term rental market have changed not only who can learn to ski, but who can keep doing it.
Heather Hansman, author of Powder Days, is the perfect co-host to grapple with your questions about the future of skiing, ski towns, and ski culture, including all the business nitty-gritty (and a frank discussion of what can make ski people so annoying). This is a ski conversation, but it’s also a conversation about housing, and class, and city planning — and the commodification of hobbies. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Hey everyone, it's Ann.
00:00:02
We're recording three episodes next week and we're still taking questions.
00:00:06
We're talking about celebrity feuds, so like, celebrities have hate each other, celebrities that secretly hate each other, celebrities that like vary, obviously hate each other, any of those questions,
00:00:16
passed and present.
00:00:18
We're talking about dad culture, which can mean so many things.
00:00:22
It can be a question about like, why does it feel like dad's like this thing?
00:00:27
What is the stereotype of a dad?
00:00:28
This is with my friend Philk, who is teaching a dad studies class this semester.
00:00:32
It's going to be also amazing.
00:00:35
And then we're talking about the world of preteen influencers with someone who has first-hand experience with that sphere.
00:00:41
It's not a preteen influencer, that's not my co-host, but it's going to be great.
00:00:46
You know the drill, head to tinyurl.com/culturestudypod and let us know what questions you have.
00:00:52
Thanks and here's today's show.
00:00:55
So you sent me an image that I had like, kind of seen, but maybe like, disposed into the back of my head.
00:01:03
It's of the new like, skims, north face, ski line.
00:01:09
Can you tell me about this photo and what you think it symbolizes about skiing today?
00:01:13
Oh my gosh, yeah.
00:01:14
So this is one of my current obsessions, skims, Concordations brand and the north face, which is sort of a classic, you know, like, outdoor brand release to collaboration.
00:01:27
And it's, it looks like, I guess it looks exactly like you think it would look.
00:01:32
It looks like skims when skiing.
00:01:34
So it's sort of all of these, like, flesh-choned, really form fitting, you know, like, stretch pants and the art for the launch is all this sort of like,
00:01:47
very organized, you know, like people skiing information.
00:01:50
It's just like such this interesting nexus, I think, of skiing and sort of identity and what I think skiing like can mean for people and also like,
00:02:01
like, well, like, in like, such this, like a clean way.
00:02:06
Okay, let's first table set just a little bit.
00:02:08
How old are you?
00:02:09
I am 40.
00:02:10
I'm much be 41.
00:02:11
Okay.
00:02:12
I'm 43.
00:02:13
So when we were growing up, they're like, rich ski person.
00:02:18
What did they wear?
00:02:19
They had the North Face, like, Sherpa Puffy coat.
00:02:23
Yeah, I remember like, for a line, right, my best friend in high school had one.
00:02:27
And it's so interesting 'cause the skim stuff, like, totally calls back to that.
00:02:31
They have that sort of, like, cropped puffer jacket, but in this sort of elite way.
00:02:37
The lagging tights, right, that you would tuck into your boots.
00:02:41
And so it created almost like, this was before, like, laggings were a thing again.
00:02:48
But it created this particular sort of line with your ski boots that were meant to, like, blend into the line of the tight pants.
00:02:56
That, to me, I was like, that person doesn't really know how to ski.
00:03:00
This is, like, this link has been, you know, circulating in my, you know, women's skiing group chat.
00:03:06
And there's really strong opinions about it.
00:03:08
And I think that that's part of it.
00:03:10
And that was sort of my, and maybe this is also me being 40, but my sort of, like, first reaction to it was, like, well, that's not a practical, like, you're going to be cool.
00:03:18
Also, are they even wearing helmets?
00:03:20
No, they're wearing helmets.
00:03:21
Ooh, yeah.
00:03:22
And, yeah, it just is that, like, okay, who is this for, and also, like, who is skiing for?
00:03:29
And on some level, I'm like, you know, Kimpery actually looks to ski, and this is, like, a fun project for her, like, get it, I can go for it.
00:03:36
Yeah, totally.
00:03:37
Yeah, it is that, kind of, like, okay, who is the demographic that this, what's the bend diagram of somebody who wants to be on a mountain, and somebody who has that particular aesthetic,
00:03:47
and somebody who also has the money to acquire all that.
00:03:50
Right.
00:03:51
And something that we're going to talk about a lot today, which is, like, an understanding of skiing as, like, high-boosh-wa activity, not even just, like, a middle-class activity, but, like, a rich person activity.
00:04:01
Hi, everyone.
00:04:08
This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.
00:04:11
And I'm Heather Hansman, and I am the author of the book Powder Days.
00:04:16
I'm a contributing editor outside magazine, and I'm really excited to talk about skiing today.
00:04:22
And I am a huge fan.
00:04:24
We just talked about this, like, in the pre-show about how I'm so excited for this conversation, and not just because my legs are still sore today from skiing yesterday,
00:04:34
and totally clearing my entire schedule in a way that was, like, pretty complicated and, like, kind of inconveniencing Melody, and I was like, "Melody, thank you for tolerating my hobby,"
00:04:44
and she literally said, "What is being a freelancer for, if not being able to, like, clear your schedule for a hobby?"
00:04:50
But we're going to start by actually talking about what is your earliest memory of skiing?
00:04:57
I grew up in a family that ski, I grew up in Massachusetts, we were close to mountains.
00:05:02
We would go on weekend trips and stuff, but I didn't grow up in a, like, ski all the time, have a mountain house family, like, I kind of came to the obsession on my own terms,
00:05:13
but I have this very clear memory of me, I was seven, and I was skiing with my dad in the blue run that we were going to ski was closed, and so he decided to take me on a black run.
00:05:23
And he was like, "Okay, if you do, if you get going too fast, all you have to do is fall down, that'll stop you."
00:05:28
So I was like, "Okay, I got this."
00:05:31
And so I, you know, like, you know, little me, picks up on the speed, falls down to, you know, follows instructions, falls down on my hand and breaks my thumb.
00:05:39
Oh, no!
00:05:40
And so I had this very clear memory of, like, being in the clinic at the bottom of the mountain, and my mom, she'd been with my brother or something, and my mom coming in and just being, like, "John!" What did you do to her?
00:05:52
So there is this sort of, like, you know, excitement and danger from the beginning.
00:05:57
Also, I think telling, because in the black diamonds that I would ski, growing up, there's no way that you could ever go fast enough to, like, hurt yourself because it's just,
00:06:07
like, always just chock full of powder, whereas, like, in a lot of mountains, especially at least, it's, like, a lot.
00:06:12
It's very icy, and, like, you can get going really fast, and that has always been, like, an interesting difference to me.
00:06:18
Part of the reason I was so excited to do this episode is because I have accumulated so many feelings about skiing, and a lot of them have been amplified over the course of the last four years,
00:06:30
when I have taken skiing back up as an adult.
00:06:34
I grew up in a small town in Idaho, and starting when I was seven or eight, we skied,
00:06:45
I don't know, probably, like, 20 to 30 days a year, but we didn't have a ski house, like, we would or a cabin.
00:06:51
The ski resort where we went was three hours away, plus an hour in time change, because we'd go over the mountain times online, and so it required a tremendous amount of effort on the part of my parents to drive down there.
00:07:04
It's also, like, probably one of the most treacherous drives to regularly take in the west.
00:07:09
It includes a pass that is, like, notorious amongst truck strivers as one of the scariest passes.
00:07:15
It's called white route pass, but I loved it, and I was not an athletic kid.
00:07:22
I did not like sports in any capacity, but I really took to skiing, and fell in love with being good at something that probably, part of the reason I loved it was because it was outside of the eyes of,
00:07:33
you know, all the cool kids that I knew.
00:07:35
I had ski friends that I loved, and then I loved to goof around with, and, like, we were always, like, dropping a pole from the lift, and, like, let's pretend we're French, and, like, only speak in French words,
00:07:46
like, you know, just the games that you play as a kid, and we skied without our parents most of the time, which was an incredible amount of freedom.
00:07:54
And then also the mountain that I grew up skiing on, and where we had seasoned passes to, on Forest Service Land, there were no condos or anything on the mountain.
00:08:02
You had to drive up 30 minutes to get up there from the ski town.
00:08:06
There was no, like, appraisine.
00:08:08
The first time that I ever experienced that, which was, as a college freshman at Whistler, I was like, "What is happening?
00:08:14
Everything is so expensive."
00:08:15
It was so incredibly alienating, and scary to me, to even have, like, lunch options.
00:08:22
I was like, "What do you mean you have to spend, like, $15 for a burger?
00:08:26
Why is everyone not, like, I, we only picnic, or, like, sometimes you'd buy a capo noodle, you know, like, it's just a very, very different experience for me.
00:08:35
And I found myself as an adult, when I graduated from college, I no longer had, you know, the ability to go back to my home mountain, and my ski stuff got old,
00:08:46
and then I was at graduate student, and I was poor, and I lived in Texas, like, there were all these things that kept me from coming back, and it really wasn't until I moved back west that I revisited and regained that incredible love and freedom of it.
00:08:59
And now my home mountain is a mountain that's a lot like the one where I grew up skiing, and that's very important to me.
00:09:07
But that has also, like, you know, going skiing all the time, like, each time that I'm on the chairlift, it brings back all of these memories, and gives me opportunity to, to process a lot of the,
00:09:17
like, ways that mountains have changed, the class connotations, all of those things.
00:09:23
So that's my long spiel that gets us to the last day.
00:09:26
And, like, you have such an interesting story too, and you really trace it eloquently in your book.
00:09:32
And so it, like, it's similar to what I just did.
00:09:34
Can you set us up a little bit about your, like, vantage point towards skiing?
00:09:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:09:39
One of the things, I mean, one of the things that you kind of just drilled into there is, like, one of the things that I'm most interested in, that all this, which is sort of this, like, idea of obsession.
00:09:47
Yeah.
00:09:48
Like, what makes your parents drive their kids, you know, three hours every weekend to do this thing?
00:09:54
And it's, like, objectively, like, expensive and sort of stupid and potentially dangerous.
00:09:58
Right.
00:09:59
And, like, what is that thing about skiing that, like, hooks people because it hooked me?
00:10:02
Um, and, like I said earlier, like, I didn't, I grew up in Boston area, and I got really hooked into skiing in high school.
00:10:11
My high school had a really good ski club, where you could, I sold breakfast at the high school so I could ski for free.
00:10:18
Yeah.
00:10:19
And it was like, I was kind of similar, you know, like I always had sports as a kid, but there wasn't anything that was, like, my thing, and all of a sudden, with ski club, it was, like,
00:10:29
I had this group of friends, they were cool, they're boys, I had a thing to do on the weekend.
00:10:34
It was just, like, this thing that, like, I felt good in my body, like, it clicked in all these ways.
00:10:38
Um, and I from there, I went to college in Maine, ski to a bunch, and then I did this sort of, like, classic ski bum thing, where right after college, I moved to Colorado, and I got to,
00:10:48
with three of my good, or two of my good friends from college, um, I got a job scanning lift tickets for, like, six bucks an hour at Beaver Creek, which is one of those, like, incredibly, it's one of the probably,
00:11:00
like, three fancius ski areas in the country.
00:11:02
There's heated sidewalks and free cookies and all of this.
00:11:05
So I was automatically kind of thrown into this, yeah, very fancy, like, in the, I became part of the service side of this very fancy elite institution.
00:11:16
Yeah, I grew up skiing sort of, like, scrubby mountains and New Hampshire and Massachusetts, where you, like, leave your boot bag under the table and, like, yeah, I'm being putter and jelly.
00:11:26
And all of a sudden was, like, oh, skiing is, skiing is a lot of things.
00:11:30
Yes.
00:11:31
Yeah, that's, that's, that's exactly how to say it.
00:11:33
skiing is so many things that I understood.
00:11:35
And I think, like, to kind of circle back to that Kardashian thing, like, that is a piece of it.
00:11:40
But I don't think that's the whole picture.
00:11:42
And so I, you know, showed up in the mountains as a 21-year-old fresh out of college on my own for the first time.
00:11:49
And I really sort of, like, fell in love with this lifestyle where I got to be outside every day.
00:11:55
You know, my community, the, my sense of self, my, you know, activities, my hobbies, all kind of got rolled into one thing and I got really obsessed with this idea.
00:12:06
And I did that for a couple of years and then I ended up getting hurt and kind of couldn't work seasonally anymore and washed out of, you know, living in a ski town working on the mountain.
00:12:16
And I became a, no, I went to journalism school and became a magazine editor, which is, you know, unstable and not lucrative in other ways.
00:12:24
But I sort of watched, as I was doing that, I kind of watched my friends and I had been, you know, 21 and 22 with try to establish themselves in these towns and hold on to jobs and start families.
00:12:38
And I sort of had this really interesting sliding doors of my own life where I can kind of look at that life and this idea of, like, living the dream and living in the mountains and being outside all the time.
00:12:51
And I could kind of see the good and the hard parts of that.
00:12:54
And also I kind of had this question of, like, is that still the dream?
00:12:58
Is that a good dream?
00:12:59
You know, what's wrapped up in that dream of skiing?
00:13:02
Yeah.
00:13:03
And that really kind of, that question about my own life and how it spirals out into, you know, work and economies and climate and community kind of became the bones for this book that there's a couple of days.
00:13:16
So one last thing that we should do, some table setting, because sometimes I think, because of where I grew up and where I live now, like, even if people don't ski, they're very familiar with,
00:13:27
like, categories of skiing or, you know what I mean, like, all that sort of thing.
00:13:33
Yeah.
00:13:34
Yeah.
00:13:35
So just for listeners who aren't as familiar with ski culture, can you, like, give me, like, a couple buckets of tapes of skiers?
00:13:42
Oh, that's interesting.
00:13:44
Yeah.
00:13:45
Um, huh.
00:13:46
Yeah.
00:13:47
What's the best way that you mean in terms of, like, okay, let me, let me, let me, let, maybe I can start us out because I think it's actually changed a lot in the last 20 years.
00:13:56
So when I was growing up, you had people who had been skiing for generations in their family.
00:14:05
And a lot of these people grew up in places like, you know, or near or around ski places and might have really old cabins that were in their family for a long time,
00:14:15
not fancy, but they were there.
00:14:17
And so, like, the thing I always think about in terms of, like, who had a season pass at our ski mountain?
00:14:22
Like, the people I saw all the time were my first grade teacher in my barber, right?
00:14:26
And they were some of the best skiers that I knew.
00:14:28
And they had a little cabin that had been in, like, their family, and they were, like, many generations old Idahoans.
00:14:36
And like, the secretary of my high school also would go skiing all the time and like, then there were also a lot of doctors kids.
00:14:44
Um, so it's like this kind of mix of middle class and, like, upper working class, who would all be at the mountain.
00:14:52
And because of the style of mountain that it was, sometimes you would be like, oh, look at that person skiing in jeans.
00:14:59
But there would be a lot of people skiing in jeans at the mountain and just wearing, like, their starter jacket, you know what I mean?
00:15:05
Yeah.
00:15:06
And I think they're sort of like, there's an interesting geographic stratification there.
00:15:10
And there's also, there's been us, and we can totally get into the leads on this stuff, but there's also been a split in the past five to seven years in terms of resort management and ski passes and ski passes work.
00:15:26
And I think that that's really changed how people access the mountains and how they go and whether they're sort of like what you're talking about where you have a local mountain where you maybe go every weekend or a lot where you're going on like a ski vacation.
00:15:42
Yeah.
00:15:43
You're going on a trip and you're going to, you know, an Aspen or a park city or something like that.
00:15:48
So I think there is this really deep stratification of like what skiing can look like.
00:15:52
And I think it can be like where I live in Durango, we have like a local resort mountain, you know, 25 minutes up the road, but we also have an in town ski hill.
00:16:02
Yeah.
00:16:03
And that has two rope toes and it's like 10 bucks to go.
00:16:06
And so that skiing can be that, you know, skiing can be, you go after school, the lights are on, you're like the base area is also the hockey ring for town.
00:16:14
Yeah.
00:16:15
And skiing can also be, you're going to Jackson Hole for a week and spending, you know, $50,000 on your vacation.
00:16:24
I mean, skiing can also be, you're going, heli skiing and like going find Alaska.
00:16:28
So there is this like very broad range of what skiing can look like, I think.
00:16:33
And there's a lot of like middle ground there.
00:16:36
Yeah.
00:16:37
And then we have another like sport that has that sort of range and one of the things that comes to mind is like cycling.
00:16:43
You can bike around town on like the old beater that you've had in your, like that was your mom's that's in your garage.
00:16:49
And like if you pump it up and grease the wheel like the chain, then it still works.
00:16:53
And it's fun, right?
00:16:54
Because you're moving.
00:16:55
And that to me is like little ski hills are still fun because you're like, you're going fast.
00:17:01
You're going up a rope toe.
00:17:02
Like it's super.
00:17:03
There's always like pleasure in that.
00:17:06
And then you can like have a $25,000 bike and like be taking cycling trips, tracing the route of like the tour de France, you know,
00:17:16
there's all sorts of access points in that way.
00:17:18
Yeah.
00:17:19
And skiing is like interesting in that part because, and then maybe like golf is an analogy too.
00:17:26
Even though I think that's going to be fun.
00:17:27
Yeah.
00:17:28
Yeah.
00:17:29
Yeah.
00:17:30
Yeah.
00:17:31
You have to do it in specific places.
00:17:32
Or go cycling and like with skiing, you have to go somewhere where there's infrastructures.
00:17:37
Like that's another piece of it too that the hat, there has to be a venue for it and you have to pump into that.
00:17:42
Yeah.
00:17:43
And with golfing, like there are like muni courses, municipal courses, and also like golf in the United States.
00:17:50
We've privatized it so thoroughly and like made it into such like a profit center that it's incredibly expensive.
00:17:56
Whereas like there are avenues that make it more affordable in your, and there's also all these like cultural signifiers attach to it about like what it means to me, what gear do you have?
00:18:06
Where do you go?
00:18:07
Yeah.
00:18:08
All of that.
00:18:09
Okay.
00:18:10
Let's get into our questions where we're going to touch on so much more of us.
00:18:13
So this is about the cost of skiing and how it's changed.
00:18:16
And I think it will give us an opportunity to talk about the changes that have occurred, especially over say the last five years.
00:18:22
This question comes from Laura and Melody's going to read it.
00:18:25
I was boarded raised in Colorado as love skiing.
00:18:28
I'm constantly grateful that my parents who rode that line between poverty and lower middle class, scrimmed, saved, and hustled to get at least one ski day a year to teach my siblings and me to ski.
00:18:40
I'm not sure that what they did would be possible today.
00:18:43
And I'd love to see more families at lower socioeconomic situations access skiing besides cost, which is prohibitive.
00:18:50
How can people in the industry reduce the barriers to entry or is it just an exclusive activity?
00:18:55
Okay.
00:18:56
So, before we answer Laura's actual question, I think this is the place where we can talk a little bit about how the conglomeration of ski resorts has changed the landscape in significant ways.
00:19:08
So, I know it's hard to talk about in like a paragraph, but maybe we can try.
00:19:12
Yeah.
00:19:13
Yeah.
00:19:14
There's sort of like two buckets in that question, I think, and I think the, how do people who aren't extraordinarily wealthy and have a ton of extra money access skiing?
00:19:24
And I think part of why that's gotten heard lately is because, I mean, there's a couple factors.
00:19:32
One of them is that it's really hard to run skiing is not.
00:19:36
If you're operating a ski hill, it's not a particularly lucrative business.
00:19:39
Nope.
00:19:40
And that's gotten even harder in climate change because seasons are more variable.
00:19:47
There's always other factors that just make it hard.
00:19:49
And in the face of that, two basically two big corporations, Vail Resorts in Altera, have bought up or managed most of the major ski resorts in the US.
00:20:04
And that's like everything, like your Vail, you're Killington, you're Snowbird, you're Crystal in Washington, you know, like most of the sort of like brand name ski resorts are now under the umbrella of one of those two companies.
00:20:18
Yeah.
00:20:19
And that sets up this like basic duopoly in skiing where those two companies can now set pricing for lift tickets for food, for what they pay people at the resorts.
00:20:32
And so what they do is that they now offer these mega passes.
00:20:37
So if you get a Vail Resorts pass, that means you have access to, I'm not going to get the numbers right right right up top of my head, but you know, say 40 ski resorts that you can go to.
00:20:46
Yeah.
00:20:47
So if you're somebody and that passes, say 1000 bucks, and if you're somebody who has the ability to travel to go to a bunch of ski areas, who has the flexibility to go,
00:20:57
it's a pretty good deal.
00:20:59
Yeah.
00:21:00
And it makes sense on some level from the Resort Management side because they're consolidated, they can kind of ride those climate waves.
00:21:08
If say it's snowing and California, but not in New Hampshire, they're a little bit more diversified.
00:21:15
But if you're somebody who is maybe wants to get in this skiing, maybe has one weekend a year that you can go on a trip, those passes are probably cost prohibitive.
00:21:26
And the way that those guys structure their businesses now is that they keep the single day ticket prices pretty high and make the passes comparatively affordable.
00:21:36
So if you want to go ski a Vail over Christmas weekends, like almost $300 for a day ticket.
00:21:41
Right.
00:21:42
And they also do variable pricing, not just like Christmas day or Christmas week or whatever, but like if the snow's good and there's lots of people who want to go, then it's more expensive.
00:21:51
Yeah.
00:21:52
They now have the data to be able to kind of like make those prices go up and down when they know it's going to be busy.
00:21:57
Yeah.
00:21:58
So that makes the barrier for entry of somebody who's a beginner or somebody who doesn't have that economic or social structure already in place that they know they want to go.
00:22:06
They know it's worth it really hard.
00:22:08
I can see in a lot of ways why those organizations would do that from a business standpoint, but from a pathway into the sport perspective, from, you know, like broadening the audience who's going to like be a part of this forever or for the future,
00:22:23
it makes it makes it really narrow.
00:22:26
Yeah.
00:22:27
Well, and skiing is one of those things that I think a lot of sports are like this to some capacity, but if your parents don't do it, if a parent doesn't do it, or another adult in your life, like it's sometimes difficult to get into it yourself unless there is an infrastructure.
00:22:41
So I've lived in places where there are really robust like PE programs for skiing.
00:22:47
Yeah.
00:22:48
Where they go to the mountain once a week, and a lot of times they put kids in just rental skis for that week.
00:22:55
And like the mountain understands we're essentially rearing new skiers.
00:23:00
Yeah.
00:23:01
We're building that kind of like future customer.
00:23:02
Yeah.
00:23:03
I think a lot of those small ski hills have a, you know, like Arab Avenue into that.
00:23:08
Yeah.
00:23:09
And you know, to part of that, part of that question, like how do we reduce barriers to entry and how do we get people into the sport?
00:23:16
I think there's sort of two pieces of that.
00:23:19
And one of the, one of them is that like pathway in, like how do you get people hooked in the first place?
00:23:24
And they're so skiing is really a high barrier to entry sport, you know, you need a lot of it.
00:23:29
It's hard.
00:23:30
It's often in places that are like hard to access.
00:23:33
Yeah.
00:23:34
And a lot of times if you don't have somebody actively bringing you in, it's a, it's a big hurdle to get going.
00:23:40
And I think a lot of those like, yeah, like my husband grew up in Portland, Oregon, and he got into skiing because they had a ski bus.
00:23:47
So they would go after school a couple days a week and that was like the thing that became the pathway.
00:23:51
And I think in a lot of ways, like if you're not in a family or in a community that's like actively part of it, I think there are pathways.
00:24:01
There's affinity groups, but it takes a little bit more work to get there.
00:24:06
Totally.
00:24:07
Totally.
00:24:08
You have to have someone who's like very, very into it.
00:24:11
Whether that's like the person who runs the ski bus or a parent or something like that.
00:24:17
And it's not like running where you're like, okay, now move your legs fast.
00:24:20
Yeah.
00:24:21
Right?
00:24:22
Like this is the thing that I think people who don't ski or who have skied a couple times in a like, this is really hard that they, you're an adult, you have a long way to fall.
00:24:31
My partner, I'm like so impressed.
00:24:35
He learned to ski four years ago and like he was describing himself skiing the other day.
00:24:41
He was like, big tree fall hard.
00:24:44
Like just how much harder it is to learn to ski when you're an adult and how much like more treacherous and painful.
00:24:50
I think of some of the falls that he's taken over the last four years.
00:24:53
I can't think of any, like I did yard sales all the time when I was learning to ski, but I never, I yard sales, sorry, I'm using ski lingo, I yard sales when you like lose every, like you fall and you like lose your mitten and you lose your,
00:25:06
your hat and your goggles and it's just like horrible.
00:25:10
He's right under the chairlift, right?
00:25:12
Oh, he's right under the chairlift.
00:25:16
But like, I never experienced pain the way that he has experienced pain from falling.
00:25:21
So I think that there's just a lot of barriers to entry and if you haven't, like, and that's not even talking about the money component.
00:25:30
I do think that they're, like, skiing often gets this, like, oh my god, it's so expensive, only rich people can ski that discounts not only, like, so at my local mount mount Baker,
00:25:42
all fifth graders have free passes and kids passes are very steeply discounted.
00:25:47
Yes, you would have to pay for a parents pass, but like that makes it a little bit easier for people who are families to have a trip there.
00:25:55
And then the other thing, too, is like the existence, there's a robust secondhand ski equipment market that sometimes if you look at the sticker price of ski equipment,
00:26:07
it looks incredibly prohibitive, but if you just, like, especially for kid skis, if you just, like, people are growing out of them so fast and they still have so much life on them, that,
00:26:17
like, you can get really great stuff on that secondhand market.
00:26:21
Yeah, you were asking about early ski memories earlier and, like, one of mine is going to, I think it was called ski burn and it was, like, in a basement of the, you know, like, upstairs was like the nice ski shop and then you would go down to the basement and they had last year's rentals and all the kind of exchange gear and we would get season rentals of,
00:26:38
like, you use kids gear, so you'd have, like, your skis for that year and then you'd send them back at the end of the season and then next year, when you were bigger, you would get, like, the next size up.
00:26:46
Yeah, my friends kids do that and it's, like, incredible for them.
00:26:50
And then even just, like, ski swaps, like, a ski swap is when lots of people bring in all of their old ski stuff that they want to get new ski stuff or, like, you know,
00:27:00
refresh in some way and then, like, it's just, like, a giant yard sale, but you're not personally manning the booth.
00:27:06
It's, like, it's in a, like, incredible abundance and everyone there is just, like, there's so much great energy.
00:27:12
Yeah.
00:27:15
And for us here, that's sort of, like, one of those markers for, like, okay, this is the beginning of winter.
00:27:18
Yeah.
00:27:19
But I think that's part of, like, one of the, there's, like, you know, obviously many things I, like, love about skiing, but, like, one of them is just, like, okay, this is, like, the time of the year when we're doing this thing and there's the build-up, there's the ski movies, there's the,
00:27:30
like, you get your gear sorted and I think that's, like, that ski swap kind of community aspect is a piece of that.
00:27:35
Yeah.
00:27:36
Yeah.
00:27:37
You take out your bag where all of your ski stuff has lived for the last year and, like, oh, the neck or my, like, the string cheese in the pocket, like, 100%.
00:27:46
Okay.
00:27:47
So, we've talked a lot about our own experiences, but for this next question from Elle, she's gonna put us on blast a little bit and let us talk about the outside perception of skiing.
00:27:58
Why do skiers suck so much?
00:28:01
As in, why did they make me feel so awful for not skiing?
00:28:05
And why did they always sound absolutely baffled at the prospect of someone they know not owning skis?
00:28:11
Don't they know it's a ludicrously expensive hobby?
00:28:14
It's made me never want to learn to ski, even if it sounds like a fun luxury.
00:28:18
Okay.
00:28:19
So, I want to get to the heart of this, which is I think that, like, sort of, like, running or lots of other hobbies.
00:28:27
There is something that is difficult to describe when you love it.
00:28:31
Yeah.
00:28:32
I think that, and I've started with this and trying to write about skiing and, like, what it actually feels like, because everything sounds so sort of, like, foofy and dumb when you try to explain it.
00:28:43
Like, there's no good adjectives, really, for, like, what happens in your body?
00:28:47
Yeah.
00:28:48
I think that for me, part of it, and this might also be rooted in the fact that I took, you know, 20 years away and then came back to it, like, I love going really fast.
00:28:59
And I do not, like, on a bike, I do not, like, I'm the person breaking down the house, um, but on skis, like, I have the confidence to go really fast.
00:29:08
So that is incredibly, like, makes me feel very alive in my body.
00:29:13
And then it makes me feel like a kid, like, I go and, like, hang out in the little jumps in the hills and I'm, like, like, not doing anything cool, like, I'm doing things that are very not cool.
00:29:23
But I'm, like, I'm 11, like, that's what it feels like.
00:29:26
I mean, I thought about, like, this is, you know, I wrote a whole book about skiing.
00:29:29
And, like, in a lot of thinking about that, I was like, is this stupid, is this elitist, is this even worth digging into?
00:29:37
And, like, one of the things that I, like, came to and thinking about that is, like, okay, why, yeah, why do I keep coming back to this?
00:29:45
And I think it is kind of what you're saying and that, like, skiing for me is one of the only things I can think of that I do that's, like, just for joy.
00:29:54
Yep.
00:29:55
And, like, you know, if I go for a bike ride, there's, like, probably an exercise component baked into that, but, like, of the things that I do that are just, like, purely fun,
00:30:07
skiing is, like, one of the things that I can, one of the only things I can think of is, like, uncompleted in that aspect.
00:30:12
Yeah.
00:30:13
And I think there's, like, I know you think a lot about hobbies and, like, how we kind of spend our time.
00:30:18
And, like, I think there is a huge amount of value in that, like, here is the thing that's, like, exists outside of, like, my sense of productivity or, like,
00:30:28
how I'm show up in the world that's, like, just for, like, how it feels in my body.
00:30:34
Yeah.
00:30:35
Yeah.
00:30:36
I think it's hard to unhangle that from all that other stuff about money, about how other people perceive it, about what you're wearing and about all those things.
00:30:42
But I think, like, at its, like, very core, that sort of feels, like, to me.
00:30:46
It's useful to me that I don't go to a fancy place where it makes me think about, oh, my God, I'm spending so much money here that's useful.
00:30:55
And then also that, like, the people that are at this mountain and the mountain itself is not pretentious in any way, and part of it is also, it's drawing from, like, the Bellingham area, which is not a,
00:31:05
like, ostensibly pretentious area.
00:31:07
So I'm never, like, there's no one in skims.
00:31:09
I'll tell you that.
00:31:10
Not one single person.
00:31:11
Yeah.
00:31:12
The blue shows have a bad influence.
00:31:13
I would be so curious.
00:31:14
Yeah.
00:31:15
Yeah.
00:31:16
I think it's, like, so wet.
00:31:17
Yesterday, they would have been tripped.
00:31:18
They would have melted.
00:31:19
Yeah.
00:31:20
They would be so soggy on the left.
00:31:21
There's not, like, we don't have any, um, and then I also think, like, ritual is part of why people love it too.
00:31:29
Mm-hmm.
00:31:30
Have you thought about that?
00:31:31
Yeah.
00:31:32
Yeah.
00:31:33
In terms of, like, the seasonal aspect, in terms of, like, the ritual of the day, I think about that, like, even in terms of, like, the people that I see, like, there, like, there's a point in the year, in a lot of places that I live,
00:31:44
where, like, that kind of early season, like, oh, we go see the ski movies all of a sudden, you're like, oh, yeah, Jimmy, like, I haven't seen you since March.
00:31:51
And so I think that whole sort of, like, yeah, the community aspect, the sort of, like, even the ritual of getting your gear, getting dressed, getting, like, getting in the car and listening to music,
00:32:02
going back to the parking lot, and, like, having a beer in the parking lot, all those pieces can be part of this sort of, like, yeah, I think rituals are a really good way of putting it.
00:32:11
I love, like, the sound of people clumping downstairs in ski boots.
00:32:16
It's such a particular sound, and everyone has to do it if you're wearing ski boots.
00:32:20
Like, you have to, like, use the railing and, like, be awkward.
00:32:26
And yesterday, there was this incredible couple in their, like, late 70s, who was up at the mountain, and they were just taking, like, a midday break to have a coffee and a cookie.
00:32:35
And the woman was, like, going down the stairs in front of me, and I was, like, even when I'm that old, I'm gonna have, like, especially when I'm that old, I'm gonna make the same sound in my boots, and that,
00:32:45
like, a five-year-old makes when they're clumping down the stairs.
00:32:49
And I think that's, like, I don't know, even just, like, the image of those people, like, that's the dream.
00:32:53
Oh my god.
00:32:54
Parents now live, my mom's retired, my parents live 10 minutes from a ski home in New Hampshire.
00:32:59
And, like, the other day, they're like, "Yeah, we just, like, went up for an hour at night in the morning."
00:33:03
And I was like, "Yup, that's the thing."
00:33:05
You know what, I love that we're answering this question about why ski people are so annoying, with, like, I was just talking about why we love skiing, or not, yeah.
00:33:14
And I think that, like, yeah, this is why it's sort of hard to, like, wrap your arms around, because I think skiing is all of that.
00:33:20
And there definitely is a sector that is...
00:33:25
I mean, these people that you talk about some particularly annoying, but there is a sector that's, like, I go on a ski trip because that's, like, yeah, a cool thing to do.
00:33:36
I get the whole outfit.
00:33:38
I'm going to, like, the restaurants in Aspen that are fancy.
00:33:41
Like, I think there is a clump of people who do that, but I think that that's not.
00:33:46
And I think that kind of gets a lot of light and attention, but I don't think that's, like, the breath of skiing.
00:33:52
So, I'm going to, I hope you're familiar with both of these movies.
00:33:55
I feel like you have to be, because you were a similar age.
00:33:59
There are two movies that I think get at the heart of annoying ski culture, but one is incredibly endearing to me, and one, whatever.
00:34:06
Um, so the first one that I think of when I think of ski culture is Aspen Extreme, which is, like, super fancy people skiing, right, and, like, like, lots of, like,
00:34:17
bad behavior.
00:34:18
And then the other one is Ski Patrol, which, my brother and I wore out on VHS.
00:34:24
Do you know this movie?
00:34:25
I've only seen Ski Patrol at once, I think.
00:34:26
But Aspen Extreme is something I think about.
00:34:29
So, Ski Patrol is an incredibly goofy movie, um, but it's about a bunch of, like, weirdos, many of whom work for the mountain, and some don't,
00:34:40
but, like, about skiing as goofy enough, and about it as, in group, in terms of, like, in jokes, and, like, rejecting a particular posture towards making money and being cool and fancy,
00:34:55
even though there's, like, a cool hierarchy within their, like, group of people in terms of, like, who's joking, and that sort of thing.
00:35:03
But, yeah.
00:35:04
The one that hits that point for me is out cold.
00:35:06
Oh, yeah.
00:35:07
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:08
It's not, which is, like, a little bit more modern, and, you know, like, there's, like, the, like, dirt bag ski bumps, who are, like, up against, like, the rich guy is going to come on the mountain.
00:35:17
Yeah.
00:35:18
And, like, yeah, it's, like, totally sets off that sort of, like, I think there is, sort of, an Aspen Extreme actually gets into this a lot too.
00:35:24
There's, sort of, as this, like, cultural idea of, like, okay, we're the, like, hardcore, real skiers.
00:35:29
Yeah.
00:35:30
And there's, like, the brace Kellogg, fancy people who are on vacation, and there's sort of, like, battle between the, like, people who are doing it for the love of this sport, and then the people who are doing it to, like, be on vacation,
00:35:41
and make her make money, you're, like, be elite.
00:35:43
Yeah.
00:35:44
Yeah.
00:35:45
Because I think the Aspen Extreme, in a lot of ways, is sort of a movie about class issues.
00:35:49
Yeah.
00:35:50
And about, like, who can afford to exist in a ski town?
00:35:53
Yeah.
00:35:54
Absolutely.
00:35:55
And I think that the reason why skiers are annoying is, in many ways, the reason why people who are super into any hobby, and are trying to evangelize for it,
00:36:06
can be annoying, right?
00:36:08
No, totally.
00:36:09
Runners are super annoying.
00:36:11
Golfers are like that.
00:36:12
We're, like, hearing people talk about their vacations annoying, so there were so many reasons.
00:36:17
Yeah.
00:36:18
Why skiing could be annoying.
00:36:19
But I, I praise this person for holding strong against not wanting to ski.
00:36:23
Yeah.
00:36:24
And I think there are, like, yeah, I think there are ways you can find your way, and they don't have to feel like that.
00:36:28
Yeah.
00:36:29
Yeah.
00:36:30
It continues to get at this theme of class divide.
00:36:33
This comes from Carolyn, and Melody's going to read it.
00:36:36
As an avid skier of all sorts, I grapple with loving to sport so much while disliking many facets of the culture.
00:36:43
One thing that makes me uncomfortable as someone who visits ski towns often is the widening gap between people who own property in a ski town.
00:36:50
I can't say live because it's often a second home or a rental property, and the people who live to work there.
00:36:58
Aside from generally not being an asshole, how could I be a better patron to those who live there when visiting a ski town?
00:37:04
Is there anything we can do as tourists visiting ski towns to ensure that the working class and ski towns are able to live where they work?
00:37:12
This kind of applies to tourism in general, which I'm interested in as a larger discussion as well.
00:37:17
Oh, this is such a good question.
00:37:21
Such a good question, in so many ways that we can take it.
00:37:24
So can you describe, when I think of this town, I think of Whitefish Montana, but there's so many similar towns.
00:37:32
In many ways, it's not possible for people who work there to actually live in the town proper anymore.
00:37:39
Yeah.
00:37:40
And this is, when I dug into the research for this, but one of the big things that I was looking at was the economic inequalities in ski industry as a whole, and then in ski towns in particular,
00:37:52
which is huge.
00:37:53
There's some of the most that the GD coefficient is like the sort of economic measure for inequality.
00:37:58
I looked at Aspen when I was looking at this, but a lot of ski towns are like so far on the end of the spectrum of inequality because you have people who come in,
00:38:09
and a lot of times people say, and Jackson Holyom being, a lot of times people will say that's their primary residence, because of tax benefits.
00:38:18
And so the top of the pile of income and economics is really, really, really, really high.
00:38:25
And then the other side of that is that ski towns in any kind of recreation town or tourist town is inherently dependent on the service industry.
00:38:33
Yeah.
00:38:34
And so you have people, you know, cleaning hotel rooms, working restaurants who are necessary for these towns to exist, but the way that the economy skews is that the value of things and housing,
00:38:48
I think, is like the biggest example of this is totally divorced from the wages in the town.
00:38:55
So you have like the cost of things, like the markets broken, and the cost of things doesn't align with what you might make in that town.
00:39:02
And housing, I think, is really like the most clear way of looking at this because, you know, land is a finite resource, and a lot of these places, especially with the,
00:39:13
I don't know Airbnb is right now, but like with the rise of Airbnb, a lot of places that could have been long-term housing for people living these towns have been turned into short-term rentals.
00:39:24
There's a lot of places that sit empty, you know, 49 weeks a year, because of somebody's second home.
00:39:31
And yeah, I think that is sort of like a really clear example of how these systems are broken, and we kind of like baked ourselves into a divided society.
00:39:42
And I think that that, to me, I think like ski towns are such an interesting microcosm for what's happening in a lot of places, you know, in a lot of cities, but I think that that gap is really real,
00:39:54
and I think acknowledging that and like seeing that is a piece of it.
00:39:57
And I think that as visitors, I mean, what you can do is stay in hotels, because hotels pay taxes and employ people, and that's sort of like a small example.
00:40:09
Yeah, but then I think, yeah, that like what can we do as visitors to sort of an interesting situation?
00:40:17
Oh, well, I have actually the solution, which is you buy property, you buy property, and then you turn it into an affordable rental, like actual rental property for people to live in full time,
00:40:29
and like allow dogs and allow like six people to be on the lease and like, yeah, yeah, property taxes are high, the cost to property is high,
00:40:41
and a lot of ski towns and mountain towns were pretty progressive and sort of ahead of the curve on affordable housing.
00:40:47
Yeah.
00:40:48
Aspen actually was really way out ahead of it, and you know, affordable housing was just like bad urban thing, but they can't keep up with the man on that, and a lot of places, like even though they're buying,
00:40:58
you know, like market rate or affordable housing, they can't house their employees, they can't house, you know, the people, the teachers or the firefighters.
00:41:07
There was a, I think it was steamboat had a job opening for like an HR person, like the person who would like fix this problem, and they couldn't afford to live in the town.
00:41:18
Yeah.
00:41:19
So, and I think there's a lot of other places, like obviously the housing is a big piece of this, but there's a lot of other pieces of the puzzle.
00:41:28
It's been an effort in the past couple of years to unionize a lot of on-moutain workers.
00:41:33
Yeah.
00:41:34
A lot of, like, a couple of ski officials have unionized recently, so there is this sort of, in town, worked to like create a more equitable labor market, which is really hard,
00:41:45
especially in places where the economy is run by the skiers' work, which is often owned by a big conglomerate, yeah.
00:41:54
And they have a lot of power.
00:41:55
So, I think, like, yeah, as somebody who's like coming in and as a visitor, it's like being the town, you use the services that are like within your means,
00:42:06
you know, go to the local restaurants, tip your service.
00:42:09
Yeah.
00:42:10
Yeah.
00:42:11
But also, like, and I think if you're visiting the town, there isn't a town that you can do, like, to change that particular town, because you're not, like, you don't have the voting power to do things,
00:42:23
like, put real restrictions on Airbnb rentals, right, which is something that a lot of tourist towns and ski towns have, I've started to do in order to open up that long-term rental market.
00:42:33
And by long-term rental, I mean, so short-term rentals are Airbnb's, VRBO's, like, places where people have decided, okay, I own this property, I can make a lot more money doing short-term rentals than renting to a bunch of ski bumps,
00:42:45
or not even ski bumps, that's the thing.
00:42:48
It's not as, like, simple as, like, oh, this is a bunch of 22-year-olds you're going to live and wreck my house.
00:42:52
It's more like-- Yeah, it's, like, okay, this is the fourth-grade teacher who also skis every weekend, right, like, or maybe not, but who lives and works in the town and makes it the place that it is.
00:43:03
Yeah.
00:43:04
And I think it's, like, I'm really interested to see what's going to happen in a lot of these places in the next five to 10 years, because I think eventually the economy starts to collapse if you don't have the people working those jobs.
00:43:15
And I was, like, I've been picking on Aspen, but I think Aspen's an interesting example.
00:43:19
I was there last winter, and somebody was telling me that a lot-- and I think this is, like, getting to the last question about, like, choir skiers assholes.
00:43:26
Yeah.
00:43:27
A lot of people will come in now on these really elite places and also show up with, like, their own private chef, their own housekeeping staff, their own grounds keepers, so they're just, sort of, like, importing their own lives.
00:43:38
Yeah.
00:43:39
And I think that gets so far out on the line of, like, you're not engaging with the community and with the world, but that's-- I think if we can fight that, or, like, don't be that guy.
00:43:50
Oh, my gosh.
00:43:51
And it just really gets at the heart, too, of, like, people who buy a place in one of these towns, and they're, like, OK, I want to be able to stay in my own place for the two weeks that I go there,
00:44:02
and it's going to set empty for the other 50 weeks.
00:44:06
And it's because I want what I want in the way that I want it, like, at the time that I want it, instead of, I'll find, like, I'll stay in a hotel for a week, or, like, I'll find a place to stay,
00:44:16
or something, but, like, this incredible, like, focus on immediacy and, like, having everything the exact way that you want it.
00:44:24
And also, like, you said, like, having a private chef who, like, makes you dinner at the place, like, my best memories of the place where we would go skiing.
00:44:32
Like, we stayed in, like, a motel where, like, you win in the hot tub, and, like, everyone always got hot tub rash, right?
00:44:39
Like, it's, like, not a great such.
00:44:43
And then, but you would go out to dinner, because that was kind of your only choice, was to go out to one of, like, you know, the affordable places in town, and the best burger place was this place called Lardo's.
00:44:53
And, like, everything would just be filled with, like, stinky people who still were wearing their bibs, right?
00:44:58
Like, there was a real piece to the entire experience that was, like, being out in the community and being part of that.
00:45:04
And not, like, as I've heard, is now the case at a place like Whistler, like, you have to make reservations for any place that you want to eat once you're done skiing?
00:45:14
Like...
00:45:15
Yeah.
00:45:16
And it's sort of an interesting question to, like, this is something I haven't asked myself lately.
00:45:20
It's like, what is travel for, or what is invitation for?
00:45:24
Like, what...
00:45:25
If you're going, if you're, like, taking all the time and effort to go to these places, like, what is the experience that you want to have when you're there?
00:45:33
And I think, for me, I'm always sort of, like, well, yeah, what are the local, you know, what are the local stores?
00:45:38
People who live here do.
00:45:39
But I think if, like, if that...
00:45:41
If you want to have that sort of comfort level of, like, I know what I like to eat, I want things to be the way they are.
00:45:48
You can...
00:45:49
I mean, maybe not everybody, but, like, there's a sector of people who can achieve that.
00:45:56
And you can have the, like, you know, Amazon grocery is already there when you get there.
00:46:00
Like, you can kind of have the pieces in place the way you like them.
00:46:03
Yeah.
00:46:04
But, like, is that...
00:46:05
What are you missing out on if you set it up like that?
00:46:07
And, you know, I think that the rise of, like, mountain campaigns, so what I mean by that is, like, people who stay at the mountain in, like, vans or trucks that are oftentimes,
00:46:18
like, some are totally kitted out and some are, like, I have a crappy generator so that I can, like, not freeze in my car overnight, but there's, like, a real community feel amongst the people that are...
00:46:29
Like, people sit around and, like, hang out with one another, barbecue, whatever.
00:46:33
Like, that's almost, like, this overflow from people who've been shot out of, like, the experience of the town.
00:46:39
You're, like, "Oh, here's a way, as a family, that we can all go skiing together."
00:46:43
Yeah.
00:46:44
It's interesting.
00:46:45
We, actually, I have...
00:46:46
I'm, like, guilty.
00:46:47
It was, like, one of those people.
00:46:48
Like, a family of people.
00:46:49
Yeah.
00:46:50
But I don't think it's guilt.
00:46:51
Like, I don't think it's a bad thing.
00:46:52
Do you know what I mean?
00:46:53
But I think there is, like, sort of an evolution of that, too, where, like, we had a van that my husband had for years, and it was, like, you know, had a bad, had a heater and it was, like, pretty, he built it out, it was pretty bare bones.
00:47:05
And I think that we used it a lot during COVID.
00:47:07
And I think this is also, like, a Northwest thing where you can camp in the parking lots on a lot of places.
00:47:13
And there was this rise, I think, driven by COVID of, like, the van bros, where all of a sudden, like, there was this huge market for, like, your $100,000 winter van that you had built out.
00:47:24
And we were in the parking lot at Mount Bachelorette and Bend.
00:47:28
And one of his friends who lives there was, like, we didn't have a pandemic in Bend.
00:47:31
We had a pandemic, like, all of a sudden, all these people who could, like, work remotely and had flexibility, bought these fancy vans and, like, showed up in the skieries.
00:47:42
So I think there is this sort of, like, that gets stratified, too.
00:47:45
Totally.
00:47:46
No, it's totally right.
00:47:47
And then I think about the woman I took a chair with the other day who, like, slept in the back of her car.
00:47:53
She specified, she said, my car.
00:47:56
And she was like, it was only 33.
00:47:58
It was okay.
00:47:59
I meant so many fun people.
00:48:00
Yeah.
00:48:01
I have a good sleeping bag, who, like, just drove up from Bellingham and wanted to, like, get first tracks.
00:48:07
And she did it by herself.
00:48:08
That's a different, I think, sort of, attitude than, like, then, like, I will only go and camp in my van if my van costs us $100,000.
00:48:17
Yeah.
00:48:18
And it has a lot of things.
00:48:19
And I think that kind of gets back to that, like, sort of, like, obsession part, too.
00:48:22
It's like, what do you do in sacrifice and, like, get uncomfortable for because you love this stupid thing?
00:48:29
Yeah.
00:48:30
Totally.
00:48:31
Totally.
00:48:32
Okay.
00:48:33
So this is about the future of skiing.
00:48:34
It's something I think about a lot.
00:48:35
This comes from Lisa.
00:48:36
Should I give up on my dream of skiing with my kids?
00:48:39
I grew up skiing in the cat skills with my entire extended family every weekend, grandparents and cousins and everybody.
00:48:46
Now that I have my own kids, I have no idea how they did it.
00:48:49
It seems impossible.
00:48:51
Kids and lessons are just entirely out of reach financially.
00:48:54
How did my parents' generation do this for all of us?
00:48:57
Was it just much cheaper 30 years ago?
00:48:59
When did it get so, so, so, so expensive?
00:49:02
And more painfully, there's just not enough snow.
00:49:05
My grandmother skied 70 days in a row the year that she turned 70.
00:49:10
I don't know if there were 70 days in a row where you even could ski near where I lived last year.
00:49:15
I always wanted to raise my own ski buddies, but is it cruel to encourage my kids to love a sport that might not last until they're adults?
00:49:22
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go.
00:49:27
So we've talked about the financial piece of this a bit, but I wonder how much do you think that their rising cost can be connected in some ways to climate change?
00:49:38
I think they are related.
00:49:39
I think just because on some level it is the cost of operating a skieria and this sort of like risk that the business of skiing has to take in the face of less stable winters is really real and a lot of smaller local skierias,
00:50:02
like a lot of ones that I know have closed because they can't ride that kind of like wave of you have you have a bad winter and then you have like another bad winter in a row and you just don't have the financial insulation for that.
00:50:15
Like, you know, it's end of December here, it hasn't snowed in weeks where I live in Southern Colorado and I was on a run this morning with a friend who was talking about another friend who owns a snowmobiling company,
00:50:26
like they kind of do tours and they're, he's out there, he has to make snow this year to kind of like keep his business going.
00:50:32
So like the, you know, the investment becomes way higher, but I think more on a, I mean, this is the way I think about it for myself because I think about this all the time.
00:50:42
Like is it stupid to be doing this thing and thinking about this thing and like obsessed with this thing that is could go away for like even in a,
00:50:52
in a year like this where it's December and it hasn't been that good, it's like your, you get your hopes up and you get sort of like a little heartbroken and let down and, and crabby and cranky.
00:51:02
But that was me last year.
00:51:04
I was so freaking cranky and just like, yeah, I mean the last year we had like an incredibly crappy year and the way that I thought about my past was that like,
00:51:17
obviously, like I lost money on it.
00:51:19
But like you can't sometimes, especially if you're with a smaller ski mountain, like I didn't think of it as losing money.
00:51:24
I thought of it as a way that I was sustaining this mountain for future years because it is a local family owned mountain.
00:51:32
Your CSA and I think it is like in terms of like, should you not get your kids hooked on this like unreliable drug,
00:51:42
I think it's sort of like, I guess the way I think about it is like, I don't want to, yes, the future looks scary and sketchy, but I don't want to like give up on the thing before I have to give up on the thing and I don't want to like live in fear of it,
00:51:57
not existing and I also think that there's a level that, and I think this is true in terms of like a lot of different kinds of recreation and how we're thinking about sort of like,
00:52:09
where can we be?
00:52:10
What is the future of climate and the outdoors look like that you, that kind of obsession and love also leads to a kind of care.
00:52:18
Yeah.
00:52:19
It's really hard to care about things that you don't care about.
00:52:21
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:52:22
And having that sort of like hook in I think gives people an emotional, an emotional resonance and a way to sort of like personally connect themselves to place.
00:52:32
But I think I have that, like, you probably have this too.
00:52:34
I have this like personal barometer of like, like my birthdays in January, it's supposed to be snowy on my birthday.
00:52:39
I mean, it's not.
00:52:40
Okay.
00:52:41
What does that mean?
00:52:42
What am I seeing here?
00:52:43
Yeah.
00:52:44
And I think it's also like, I don't know to go back to that idea of hobbies and joy.
00:52:48
That's why we're doing it.
00:52:49
And like to have to like, give up on that sense of joy out of fear, it seems really sad to me.
00:52:55
Yeah.
00:52:56
I do think that like sometimes, you know, especially if you want to do something like this as a family and want it to be financially sustainable, that if it's not local,
00:53:08
it might not be possible.
00:53:10
Yeah.
00:53:11
And that's hard.
00:53:12
Yeah.
00:53:13
I think that's the same.
00:53:14
Like, maybe this is like getting a little loose, but I think it's the same with like food systems or that kind of thing.
00:53:18
Yeah.
00:53:19
Yeah.
00:53:20
Can you support the thing that like actually supports your community and like maybe brings you?
00:53:24
And like that's obviously not.
00:53:25
It sounds like you and I both live in places where we have that.
00:53:28
We do have that like local ski mountain, and that's obviously not true for a lot of people.
00:53:32
But like, yeah, can you sort of engage with like the smaller scale local, the piece of it that actually is sustainable and some level.
00:53:41
Yeah.
00:53:42
And that's hard because like a lot of times those places are also the ones that don't have the infrastructure to make them resilient to climate and don't have like, can't ride those waves as much.
00:53:50
But.
00:53:51
Yeah.
00:53:52
And also like, the places that maybe we remember skiing are not necessarily the places that you can ski sustainably anymore.
00:53:59
And whether that's because the character of that place has changed.
00:54:02
So I grew up skiing.
00:54:03
It was Rundage Mountain and McCall Idaho and McCall has changed significantly since then.
00:54:09
Or like in skiing in the Catskills, like or skiing in Vermont, like the predictability, the reliability of weather in those places and all places, but especially I think in the East.
00:54:19
Yeah.
00:54:20
So I think it is like there is some level of like, you have to live in the, like I thought a lot about nostalgia in this too, because I think so much of like ski culture is about this sort of like old school nostalgia.
00:54:33
This is what we wear.
00:54:34
This is what the seasons are like.
00:54:35
And I think there's like something that really like hits me in the chest about that, but you also can't live.
00:54:42
You have to like also live where we are right now.
00:54:44
Yeah.
00:54:45
No, it's climate grief for sure.
00:54:46
Maybe this is beginning like Paulianne about it, but like is that you're sort of like wedge into like feeling something about it and like having context on your own life.
00:54:53
Yeah.
00:54:54
Like how it impacts you.
00:54:55
I feel like I'm so much more in touch with the way that like winter works and the rhythms of winter and like how El Nino and La Nino work because of becoming a skier again.
00:55:08
Yeah.
00:55:09
Being outside and especially in the winter when it's so easy to like be inside and be insulated and be in front of screens, it's like that's that's the being out in and it's like the cure for it in a lot of ways, I think.
00:55:19
Yeah.
00:55:20
I mean yesterday, so it snowed all day on the mountain, turning into rain at the end of the day and I know going is atmospheric river, but then like it rained so hard on the way home and like so intensely that it at 4 p.m.
00:55:38
It was so dark and like in another scenario, it would be so bleak just like looking outside and it's dark at 4 p.m.
00:55:50
but I was like I spent all day outside being ridiculous like ringing out my mittens because the snow was so wet, like I feel great in a very different way than I would if I had started a computer screen all day and I looked up to that.
00:56:03
Heather's going to stick around for the subscriber only ask and anything segment today.
00:56:07
So this question, it's not about skiing, but it is about another area of her expertise, which is deciding where to live when you can technically live anywhere.
00:56:17
If you want that part of the conversation, head to culturestudypod.substock.com and become a paid subscriber.
00:56:23
Well, this has been fantastic and lived up to all of my expectations, so thank you so far.
00:56:29
I feel like there's so much more we can talk about that.
00:56:33
We're going to be able to find you if they want to hear more from you.
00:56:35
My website is HeatherHansman.com and I'm a H-Hansman on most social media, probably Instagram more than anything these days and I'm in an interesting relationship with that right now.
00:56:47
And really go to your local bookstore.
00:56:49
Yeah.
00:56:50
We'll go to any bookstore.
00:56:51
Do that.
00:56:52
Yeah.
00:56:53
Awesome.
00:56:54
Thank you so much.
00:56:55
This has been a pleasure.
00:56:56
Oh, thank you.
00:56:57
This is so fun.
00:56:58
Thank you so much for listening to The Culture Study Podcast.
00:57:02
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00:57:04
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00:57:09
If you want to suggest a topic, ask a question about the culture that surrounds you or submit a question for our subscriber-only advice time segment.
00:57:17
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00:57:20
If you want to support the show and get bonus content, head to culturestudypod.substock.com.
00:57:26
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00:57:40
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00:57:44
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00:57:46
You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodyus47, and this show at Culture Study Pod.
00:57:54
Thank you so much for your support.
00:57:56
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