The Copywriter Club Podcast

Most podcasts about email are pretty basic. Build a list. Email often. Create a lead magnet people want. That kind of tired advice isn't very useful. So in this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I talked with copywriter Jacob Suckow about the skills and expertise it takes to succeed in this industry. This is a masterclass in succeeding as a six-figure email copywriter. Don't miss it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Get Jacob's Playbook here The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Most podcasts about email don’t get into the nuts and bolts of how it really works. Until now. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. When you hear a podcast host like me say we’re talking about email on the podcast today, do your eyes glaze over? Do you think, here we go again… more advice about how you need to build your list, need to have a lead magnet, need to email regularly… or maybe you think of tired advice and adages like “the money is in the list” and “the more you hit send, the more you earn”. This is not that. This episode is not that. My guest on the podcast today is Jacob Suckow. This is Jacob’s second appearance on the podcast. The first time was about four years ago. And the change in his expertise and business is substantial. He was just figuring things out in that first interview. Today he runs a six-figure email business helping his clients grow their sales with high-level strategy using regular emails and email sequences stacked on top. How do you go from writing emails and pitching products to landing mulit-year retainers taking on not just the writing duties, but also strategy and responsibility for increasing response rates and sales? We talked about exactly how to do that in this episode.  We also talked about exactly how much you could be earning doing email for clients… Jacob shares all three of his pricing tiers to give you an idea of what you could be earning… and using his pricing structure you could create a six-figure business with just 3-4 client retainers. And we talked about what it looks like to lever your experience with email strategy into a fractional CMO role and what that looks like too. Finally we talked about newletters and how this is probably the biggest opportunity for copywriters out there today… the opportunity to grow and own an audience, then partner with offer owners or create your own offers for the audience you own is huge and one that perhaps every copywriter should be chasing down… and I’m not talking about writing weekly emails to other copywriters. These are niche opportunities that can be very profitable for the copywriters willing to put in a little work. There’s a lot of good stuff in this episode so stick around. Before we get to my discussion with Jacob, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Jacob Suckow.

Planning for the unexpected is one of those skills that successful people have. But you can't plan for everything. This episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast features my guest, Dani Paige, who has become an expert in figuring out how to move forward when you have to deal with the unexpected. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Dani's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Sometimes you can plan for change. Other times you can’t—and you have to adjust anyway. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. One of the strategies we teach in The Copywriter Accelerator and our other programs where we talk about getting things done is planning ahead for when things don’t go as planned. It’s pretty easy to set goals and expect the future to behave as expected. But the reality almost always turns out differently. So you might come up with a plan to spend next Friday creating a new product or service, strategizing who its for, the various things to include to make it valuable, and so on. But then Friday arrives and you’re not feeling well, or a friend from out of town calls and wants to see you, or a family emergency ends up taking up a significant chunk of your day. What happens then? Planning for the invevitable things that go wrong is a huge part of success. Thinking through the options before they happen can help keep you on top of things. But you can’t plan for everything. A lot of copywriters we’ve had on the podcast have shared that a career they planned on pursuing turned out to be less than they expected. And they make an unplanned switch to writing copy. But there are other ways that life throws you a curveball and you need to quickly adjust expectations and behaviors to make things work. My guest on the podcast today is Dani Paige. She started a corporate career that didn’t go as planned and found copywriting as a result. She’s changed the services she offers more than once. And she’s tried things she thought would work that failed. More recently, she made changes to her business to prepare for maternity leave. Everything was ready to support her new family situation but once again, things turned out differently than she had planned. So how do we as copywriters adjust on the fly when things don’t turn out the way we expect them to. That’s a big part of what we talked about on today’s episode. Dani and I also talked about her journey into copywriting and how she learned to write sales pages and launch copy… if you want to write those kinds of projects, you can learn a lot from Dani and her approach to learning these skills. And what Dani says about community and connection is a theme that has come up several times in the last few months here on the podcast. If you’re not building connections and participating in communities, you are not building a skill that is critical for your future success. There’s a lot of good stuff in this episode so stick around. Before we get to my discussion with Dani Paige, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Dani Paige.

Want to get more clicks? More sales? More clients? Then understanding why humans act the way they do will help. In his new book, Hacking the Human Mind, author Michael Aaron Flicker shares dozens of psychological "hacks" that copywriters should understand before they write copy. Michael Aaron is our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Hacking the Human Mind by Michael Aaron Flicker The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Want more responses, sales, and customers? Let’s hack the human mind. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Several months ago, I was fortunate enough to get an advanced copy of a book called, Hacking the Human Mind. Now… if you have a book and want me to read it, giving it a title like Hacking the Human Mind and including ideas and insights from behavioral science, neuro marketing, and psychology is pretty much guaranteed to get my attention. But this book goes one step farther by looking at marketing in the real world then searching for the psychology that explains why something works. The approach basically flips the usual marketing tactic to-do list from: here are a bunch of psychological triggers… exclusivity, scarcity, risk removal, curiosity and so on… make sure you include them all into your sales process, and instead look for what works already and figuring out why it works. That’s a bit different from the usual approach. So I asked one of the authors, Michael-Aaron Flicker to talk with me about some of the concepts from the book.  We talked about the Pratfall or Blemish effect and how to turn a product flaw into an asset. There are very few perfect products in the world, so understanding how to use this effect in your copy is incredibly useful. We also talked about how to address product changes in a way that doesn’t generate backlash. We’ve seen customers revolt against design and formulation changes over the last few years—Kraft Mac and Cheese did it the right way. And to hear that story, you’ll have to keep listening to this episode. Another idea we talked about is offer simplicity… we’re often tempted to stack feature on feature and then benefit upon benefit. We do this to pile on the good stuff and make our offers more valuable to our clients. But the actual effect may be the exact opposite. Again, to hear how that works you’ll want to keep on listening. One thing Michael Aaron points out that it takes more than knowing about a particular psychological effect or persuasion trigger, often you need to find new and innovative ways to use these triggers. Before we get to my discussion with Michael Aaron, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Michael Aaron Flicker. Transcript summary coming soon.

Writing for clients is just one way to build a copywriting business. Once you've done that for a while, you may decide it's not right for you. So what does the alternative look like? I invited copywriter Krystle Church to join for for the 266th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about that and a lot more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Krystle's Email List The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Partial Transcript: Rob Marsh: When your business stops working for you, what can you do to fix things? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. There are a lot of copywriters who build a successful business writing for clients. Or maybe they build an agency around their offers and niche. But then after a few years they don’t love the business they created for themselves. Sometime we just burn out and need to do something a bit different. Maybe they no longer want employees or contractors. Maybe they get tired of working directly with clients. Maybe they realize that instead of using their skills to attract customers to other peoples businesses, they decide to use their skills to sell products to their own clients. And then many of us are entrepreneurs at heart and have always wanted to build a business other than writing for a list of clients. Shifting a business from offering services to clients to something else can be a challenge. It’s a very different kind of work. Instead of creating assets for clients, you may spend your time creating assets for your own business, then spending even more time getting attention for your offers. For many copywriters, this is the dream—a copywriting business with customers instead of clients. But there’s a lot of work that goes into a business switch like this. Validating offers. Finding a client base for your offers—which is almost certainly a very different set of clients than you’ve been writing for. Building out marketing systems to sell your new products. Figuring out how to deliver value when you’re not actually delivering copy. I wanted to talk about this with someone who’s gone through the process recently. So I invited copywriter and coach Krystle Church to come back to the podcast and talk about the changes she’s made to her business over the past couple of years. The business Krystle has today is very different from the one she was running two years ago. She’s excited about the new direction and having more fun than when she was burning out with a calendar full of projects that required her attention from the time she woke up until she went to bed at night. If you’ve been thinking about re-imagining your business, this episode may give you a few ideas to try. You’ll get a few tips about validating a new offer. And you might even decide to dabble with an offer for your niche that at least gives you a taste of what a different kind of business would feel like. This kind of business isn’t for everyone. In fact, it’s probably not for most copywriters. But it’s worth thinking about how you might be able to add to or change your business so it fits your needs a bit better. Before we get to my discussion with Krystle, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Krystle Church.

Copywriters are teachers. We teach customers how the products and services we write about help them. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with teacher turned copywriter Meredith Cooley about all the ways copywriters use their teaching skills. Even if you don't think you're a teacher, you'll learn a lot from this episode—including a simple copywriting lesson from Bluey. Yes, that Bluey. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Turn the Page Newsletter The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Copywriters are teachers. So should more teachers be copywriters? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. A few years ago I had a conversation with one of my copywriting mentors. She mentioned that she had considered teaching as a possible career path. And I shared that I had the same thought when I started my career. Then we talked about the number of former teachers we knew who had left the classroom to write copy. And that’s when it dawned on me that copywriting isn’t just something that former teachers or potential teachers do.  Copywriting is teaching. But instead of practicing that skill in a classroom, copywriters are teaching on the page or on the screen, helping potential customers learn about products and solutions, about processes and unique mechanisms, and how to solve the very real problems and pains they are experiencing in their lives. In the years since, I’ve interviewed close to a dozen former teachers on this podcast… people who are still teaching, just not in a formal classroom any more. Do you feel this as a copywriter? Do you see yourself as a teacher for your clients and their customers? My guest for today’s podcast is Meredith Cooley, a teacher turned copywriter who has helped dozens of other teachers leave the classroom and become copywriters for various businesses around the world. Teachers have so many skills that copywriters need, from project management to engaging with stakeholders at various levels of a business. And perhaps most importantly, good teachers have to be able to take dry, boring content and make it exciting for an often disinterested and bored audience. And if you listened to last week’s episode, you heard me talk about how I’ve started teaching marketing at a local college here in my home town. The crossover between teaching students and writing for customers is large. And that’s what this episode is all about. Even if you don’t see yourself as a teacher, this episode may change your mind about how you think about your relationship with the customers you write for. Before we get to our interview, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Meredith Cooley.

This episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is another guest-less show. It's just Rob sharing a few thoughts about the importance of creating customer journeys for the products you write for so you're actually addressing your customer's needs and not just your clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   What we talked about: Transcript is underway...

What's the biggest opportunity for copywriters today? That's just one of the ideas we talked about on this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Tiana Asperjan is my guest and we talked about how she became a copywriter, her "secrets" for connecting with clients, showing up consistently even when things are uncomfortable, and the biggest opportunities for writers today. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Tiana’s YouTube Tiana’s Newsletter The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Highlights from this episode: Rob Marsh: What is the biggest opportunity in copywriting today? We’re about to reveal the answer. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. When inviting guests to share their experiences on this podcast, I often look for writers who are doing something a little bit differently than their peers are doing. Someone who has a different approach, a unique viewpoint on something, or maybe they’re testing things that the rest of us just aren’t up to speed on yet. My guest on today’s podcast is Tiana Asperjan. Lately I’ve been seing Tiana everywhere… although that might just be a function of the algorithm showing me more stuff like the stuff I’ve seen recently. If you’re a copywriter, Tiana’s Youtube channel, social media feed, and newsletter are excellent. She’s teaching what works in ads and copy right now. But she doesn’t just say what’s working, she focuses on the strategy and psychology behind an ad so you know not just that it works, but why it works. She’s doing things a bit differently from a lot of other copywriters and most of us who are sharing ideas and insights about copywriting with other writers. So I asked her to join me on today’s episode and boy am I glad that I did. I like all of the interviews I share with you each week, but this one really stands out. Tiana’s story of how she got to where she is is a masterclass on the steps to success as a writer. It’s less about the destination, and more about accumulating the experiences and expertise you need to be great. I think as you listen in, you’ll learn a lot from Tiana’s experiences. As for the answer to that question I posed at the opening of this episode… what’s the biggest opportunity for copywriters working today who want to stay relevant for years to come? Well, you’ll just have to listen to this episode because Tiana reveals what it is and why this particular “niche” —and I’ve got niche in air quotes here—is where more copywriters ought to be focusing their efforts today. If you want a look at a industry or niche that is desperate for help from good copywriters, you’ll want to keep listening. Before we get to all that, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery

Newsletters are a big opportunity that many copywriters are ignoring to the detriment of their own businesses. For the 462nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I invited newsletter strategist Ciler Demiralp to talk about the newsletter industry and how writers can take advantage of this emerging industry. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Newsletter Circle Ciler's LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Here's a summary of the episode:

Want to do more than "write" copy? Then you need to get involved with your client's projects before they decide what they're going to do. And to explain how you do that, copywriter Jamie Thomson joins me on The Copywriter Club Podcast. We talked about his process for going from discovery call to paid workshop and then paid project on this episode. You don't want to miss it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Jamie's website Jamie's free Strategist Copywriter Course The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you’re a copywriter who wants more input into the work you do and more money for contributing your insights early, keep listening. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Far too many copywriters are content taking an assignment from a client and simply writing the words. In fact, there are thousands of copywriters and content writers who think that’s what copywriting is—choosing the right words to make a client sound good. They even call themselves wordsmiths as if all they’re doing is coming up with the words. Now obviously, writing the words is a big part of what we do. Often, it’s the only obvious part of a project that we can point to and say, that’s my work. But great copywriters don’t start with writing the words. They get involved in their client’s projects much earlier in the process. Before design direction is figured out. Before the brand voice is settled. Even before a client decides what exactly they need to solve the marketing problem they have. This is where copywriters should start on a project. That work is strategy… deep diving on the problem to be solved and exploring the various ways to find a solution, some of which might not even be copywriting-focused. Okay, so how do you do it. My guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jamie Thomson. Jamie takes his clients from discovery call to paid workshop to project in a process that immediately puts him in charge of driving the strategy for a project. It’s a process that makes him significantly more valuable and critical to the success of a project than simply taking a project from a client and writing the copy. What’s more, because Jamie plays such an important role in his projects, and his impact is obvious to his clients, they often come back for even more work which takes the pressure off client-finding and allows him to spend more time client serving. In the age of A.I., when the machines can write copy faster than you can… and yes I know, it’s not as good, but can your clients tell the difference? So in the age of A.I., this is one strategy that makes you more valuable as a copywriter who solves problems and gets paid to do it. If that sounds interesting to you, then stick around. And if that doesn’t sound interesting to you, maybe Jamie’s soothing Scottish accent will be enough to keep you engaged. It works for me. No matter what kind of copywriting business you want for yourself, The Copywriter Underground is packed with resources to show up as a business owner—not just a freelancer—to help you find clients, and solve big problems that clients are happy to pay big money to get off their plates. From copywriting and business templates to get you started (including a legal document and a proven onboarding process) to workshops to help you build your authority, attract clients, create products and services your clients want to buy, how to be more strategic and a lot more—The Underground is like a starter-kit for your writing business… It’s a complete business-in-a-box that you can plug into your own business and hit play. As questions come up, you have access to our private slack community, monthly group coaching, and regular feedback on your copy. I’ve been inside a lot of memberships and The Underground is the best value for content writers and copywriters I’ve ever seen. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Jamie Thomson…         Thanks to Jamie Thomson for sharing his process for getting involved with strategy early on in a project where you can have a bigger impact and show how valuable your thinking is for solving real problems.  Like I said at the beginning of the show, when A.I. can write copy that clients think is good enough, you need to contribute to your client’s marketing efforts in new ways, hopefully ways where you can add even more value. Jamie’s process is one of those ways. It’s not exactly a roadmapping session which is another way to play a strategic role with clients—with a workshop you take the lead in helping clients determine what needs to be created and getting buy in on direction which helps eliminate changes and rework later on. If you implement Jamie’s approach, email me to let me know how it goes. I’d love to hear how you make it work for your business. And of course, another place to find resources to help you show up as a more strategic thinker is The Copywriter Underground. There are workshops on finding clients, pitching, discovery calls, using diagnostic tools like a scorecard to get clients to say yes to working with you… workshops on copywriting, A.I., voice, and so much more. Check them all out at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2.

What's the best word to describe a hard-working freelance copywriter? How about feisty? On the 460th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, content strategist and author, Suzanne Bowness, shares the concepts from her new book appropriately called, The Feisty Freelancer. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Feisty Freelancer Website The Feisty Freelancer Book The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: What’s the best adjective to describe a hardworking, client-pleasing, financially successful copywriter? How about feisty? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. When it comes to freelancing, this is no one right way to do things. There are thousands of niches to serve. Millions of clients with millions of needs. There are hundreds of ways to find those clients and thousands more ways to solve their problems. But every writer who owns their own business has lots of things in common with others doing the same thing. And if you try to describe them… especially those freelancers who are actually finding clients, doing good work, and earning enough to make a living, well one word that comes to mind is feisty. The feisty freelancer brings energy to their work. They’re not afraid to stand up for themselves or the clients they’re writing for. And they even might be a little playful. The Feisty Freelancer is also the name of a new book written by content writer and former Think Tank member, Suzanne Bowness. Sue’s book is a primer for freelancers of all kinds—not just writers—who want to do more than struggle for scraps. The feisty freelancer has what it takes to succeed. This is Sue’s second appearance on the podcast. The first one happened almost three years ago. It’s episode #319 if you want to check it out. Given Sue’s expertise as a freelancer, it’s probably not a coincidence that some of the ideas we talked about then made it into the book. But it’s been a while since we had that discussion, so I took the opportunity to ask Sue about the topics she covers in her book. Things like pitching, working with corporate clients, marketing a writing business, strategies for being productive and getting things done. We even talked about whether freelancing is something people should be considering at all today. I think you’ll like what she had to share. Before we get to my interview with Sue, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Sue Bowness…     Transcript is underway...

Clients need strategy. But they don't always know that's what they need. So how do you sell it to them? How do you ensure your work is strategic even if all your client wants is a few emails? My guest for the 459th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is copywriter Kristen Vanderhoek who specializes in strategy. She spills the secrets for selling strategy to your prospects on this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: CursorAndInk.com The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Is strategy a big part of your copywriting business? If it isn’t now, it probably should be. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Every client needs a strategy. But they don’t always see it that way. They just want the emails or the web site or the launch plan. But it’s the strategy that ensures that the deliverables go to the right person, include the right message, have the right call to action—all at the right time. Clients want the deliverables and the benefits of the strategy, but they don’t always connect the two. So it becomes your job as the copywriter or content strategist to connect the dots for them, to show how strategy leads to better copy and content. On this episode of the podcast, my guest is Kristen Vanderhoek, a copywriter who focuses on brand strategy. We talked about how to approach strategy projects—Kristen shared exactly how she does it. And we talked about how you sell strategy to clients who usually just want to deliverable. We also talked about Kristen’s HOME framework, the step-by-step process she follows when working with clients to ensure they get well-thought out, strategic copy and design. Finally, one of Kristen’s differentiators is her white-glove service. She takes steps to make working with her feel like a high-end experience and makes sure her clients aren’t left wondering what’s going on, or feeling like they overpaid because the presentation at the end of the project isn’t just a file hand-off. If you’re a copywriter who is ready to level up the projects you work on and the way you deliver that work to your clients, you’ll want to listen to this interview. Before we get to my interview with Kristen, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Kristen Vanderhoek… Transcript coming....

Want to write a book? Me too. But for some reason, I just can't get it finished. Or started. I'm stuck. So I asked author and book marketing expert, Lacy Lieffers to join me for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to share her thoughts on writing books, the mindset needed to power through the process, why books are powerful business tools and a lot more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: BlackFoxMarketing Lacy's Instagram The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Thinking about writing a book? Yeah me too. For a couple of years now. So let’s talk about how to actually get it done. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you’ve been listening to this podcast for more than a year or two, you’ve probably heard me talk about wanting to write another book. It’s been a goal of mine for a couple of years even though I haven’t made a lot of progress on it lately. And you’ve probably heard at least one guest talk about the book writing process… guest like Laura Gale, Jennie Nash, Stephanie Chandler, Mary Adkins, Ryan Guthrie and Allison Fallon have all shared their approaches, their secrets for finding time and organizing thoughts for a book, and their frameworks for putting together a best-seller or at least a book that appeals to their readers. It’s been a few months, but we’ve covered this ground before. So why talk about it again? Because if you’re anything like me, it’s less about learning the latest secret for writing a book and more about reminding yourself that this is still a goal, and now is as good a time as ever to get it done. So if you have a goal to write a book, or like me want to write another book—one that better reflects the work that you’re doing right now, or even a novel that will connect with readers today… this episode is for you. My guest today is author and book marketer, Lacy Lieffers. Lacy runs a community for authors and she helps writers at all stages of the book writing process from organizing ideas to creating a game plan to make your book a best seller. She knows her stuff, so I was more than a little interested to see if what she has to share will light that fire under my backside and get my book moving again. We talked about pen names, picking the right book topic for you, how to figure out if your book idea will work, book marketing, and a lot more. If you want to write a book, or you’re stuck in the middle of your book, or you don’t know where to start, this episode is for you. And for me.  Before we get to my interview with Lacy, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Lacy Lieffers…         Thanks to Lacy Lieffers for helping me reset my goal and efforts to finally get to writing my next book. I’ve written a book before, and I’ve got to admit that while I think it’s a good book, by the time I finished writing it, I was no longer in love with the topic or the book itself. And at least in the case of that book, it’s on a topic or niche that I don’t do a lot of work in any more. So it’s definitely time for a book that’s more relevant to my business today.  If you want to connect with Lacy or use some of the tools she has created for authors to write and market their books, connect with her on Instagram where she’s got a long list of links to resources for authors. You can also find her at blackfoxmarketing.ca  During our discussion we talked about the “speak your book” formula for writing a book. I want to be clear that I’m not saying that that process can’t work. But as Lacy points out, we tend to speak differently than we write. And we listen differently than we read. So you CAN speak your book, but you’ll want to put in a lot of work to make sure it actually reads like a book and not like a transcript which can be hard to follow. If this is the only way you’ll get your book out of your head and down on paper, go for it.  And while having a book for it’s own sake may be worth the effort, a book opens all kinds of doors for you and your business that other marketing materials simply can’t. Even a podcast which can be a great way to get your voice and thoughts into the world, it doesn’t have the permanence of a book. There’s a reason why author and authority are basically the same word. When it comes to building trust, getting the attention of your ideal clients, and even booking yourself onto podcasts or events… having a good book makes all the difference. If you want to write a book, drop me an email and let me know. I’d love to hear your process for getting it done. It might help inspire me to get mine done too. Finally, a quick reminder that if you want your copy reviewed by someone who can give you expert advice on how to make it better, jump into The Copywriter Underground now and let me see your latest project. You can learn more about the Underground at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2.

What does it take to write in the health and wellness niche? I asked copywriter Kristen Driscoll about that on this 457th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The wellness niche is booming and now is the time for good copywriters to jump in. Want to know why? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Kristen's LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Writing for the health and wellness industry takes a special set of skills. And that’s what we talking about today on The Copywriter Club Podcast. One of the questions I get asked the most as a copywriting coach is which niche pays the most. I’m on the record as a big proponent of niching… our own research which you’ll find published on our blog shows that copywriters who write in a single niche make almost two times more than copywriters without a niche. And copywriters who are focused on 2-3 niches make 30% more than writers without a niche. But not all niches are equal. Some niches pay more than others… the financial niche is one of those and we’ve published several episodes in the past talking about that niche… look for our interviews with Clayton Makepeace, Kyle Milligan, Jake Hoffberg and Ridge Abraham. Most of those episode are a few years old. Partly because of its reputation as a profitable niche, it’s hard to break into work with the high-paying financial publishers. Another niche that is generally thought of as high-paying is the health and wellness niche, especially writers who work with supplement makers, fat loss products and medtech. So what do you need to know to break into this lucrative niche? I asked Kristen Driscoll, a health copywriter, to talk a bit about how she broke in and the work that she does. It’s a roadmap for your own path to success with wellness clients if you choose to follow it. We talked about how Kristen found her first client in the niche, why she chose health as the industry she wanted to work in, and why wellness is a such a massive opportunity for writers today. I think you’ll like this discussion that Kristen and I had so stick around. Before we get to my interview with Kristen, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Kristen Driscoll… Hey, Kristen, welcome to the podcast. I am really excited to talk to you about how you became marketing strategist and a direct response copywriter for health and wellness brands and all of the things. So tell us your story. Kristen Driscoll:  Well, thank you so much for having me on. I think, like many direct cop direct response copywriters and marketing folks... so that was my first career, and then I was a full time yoga teacher for 14 years, and still teach yoga. And also a lot of kind of some similarities there that I could draw upon with copywriting and getting started. So from moving on from copywriting or moving on from full time yoga teaching, is when I discovered copywriting and went full off the deep end and kind of immersed myself in in learning the craft, because it really is a craft, you know, some getting those principles down, I think, is key for a longevity of a career. Rob Marsh: Let's talk a little bit about what you did in the music industry. I know you got a couple of good stories, but, yeah, what were some of the bands that you helped promote? What were some of the things that you were doing to bring people in, you know, to the audiences, to the venues for all of these bands? Kristen Driscoll:  Well, the very first, my very first job in the music industry was for an entertainment law firm, and that's where I think I shared with you on one post. You know, there's that question that goes around like, name one thing you've done that you're sure that none of no other friends of yours has done. And one of the ones I example, I use in that a lot is that I am the witness on Deedee Ramone's prenup. Rob Marsh: This is awesome. This is such like if, if I, if that was me, that would be like the headline on my website. I would just that would be, probably has nothing to do with anything that I do, but I just think that's such a cool thing about you. I love that. Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, thanks. And it's another example of you can really use a whole lot of fodder to get people's attention, and sometimes the actual story behind it isn't quite as glamorous as as as it can sound. But... Rob Marsh: Well, let me stop you there, because tell the because I think this is actually a really good copywriting lesson. Tell the story like because you're right, it's just something that kind of happened, but then the headline is amazing, right? Kristen Driscoll: So really it was nothing much more than I was in the right place at the right time, my assistant, the assistant to the lawyer, who was Dee. Dee's lawyer, was out to lunch, and they needed somebody to pull into the conference room and be the signatory. So it really was kind of that, that simple. But then, when you know, know how to take just your, your own individual rich history, and pull out the little nuggets that are true, but will also, you know, get people's attention and get get, uh, get the get the party started. Rob Marsh: We'll definitely dive into this a lot more when we're talking about writing for health and wellness brands. Wellness brands. But to me, this is like one of the things that I really love about writing supplement copy, because you're always looking for that one detail that you can pull out and build a story around, or that one little thing about it that nobody else is talking about, that you can you know, have be the mechanism, or have be that interest thing that pulls people in, and then it's not, you know, usually the story is much bigger than that one small detail, but you're looking like that's, to me, that's one of the main skill sets of writing supplement copy. So anyway, that's, I kind of wanted to draw a line into that. Because I just think this is a key skill, and that story illustrates as well as anything else. Kristen Driscoll: I think that's a really great point, a really, really great example. And also, on the other end, knowing just how to tell a story that nobody else is telling, you know, you can go back to the Schlitz beer. You know, everybody was making the beer the same exact way, but just taking the time to stop and tell the story and romanticize it and use every possible thing that you have at your disposal. Rob Marsh: So while we're still talking about music, tell me a couple of your favorite bands that I should probably add to my listening list as I'm sitting down writing copy, what were some of the bands that you really loved promoting or loved listening to? Kristen Driscoll: Sure, well, the one I'll say, and I've never worked with him personally, but I get to see him often here in Austin, and more and more, he's getting rightful attention as just one of the major lyricists. You know, people like to talk about Stephen King's book on writing. Well, Stephen King just named James McMurtry as the number one lyricist like ever. So I think it's like a master class in storytelling in like five minutes or less. And so many different examples you could pull from, you know, starting in the middle of the story, coming on with a lyric that just grabs you right from the beginning. There's so many different examples of how to do it well, using picture words, you know, just one sentence that just sets this incredibly vivid scene. So I think we could go on for an hour on all the different ways that you could look at really great songwriters as master storytellers and paying attention to how they're doing it. Rob Marsh: Yeah, there are definitely copywriters who have, you know, come from the music industry or play around in the music industry. And that's, I think, one of the things that sometimes makes them a little bit different. They're really good at tempo, at, like you said, picture, words, or, you know, telling a story in a very simple way. So I'm adding James McMurtry to my Spotify list. And we're done recording here. I'm gonna, I'll be relaxing, you know, with the Coke Zero. Kristen Driscoll: I think you can't, you can't go wrong. There's just so many great examples there that you can pull from. Rob Marsh: And then, after being in the music industry for a while, you were this Bikram yoga teacher. Talk a little bit about some of the lessons from yoga that apply to copywriting, or at least to the writing that you do. Kristen Driscoll: Absolutely, I think, you know, pulling back to the bigger lens, I think there's so many similarities. So in Bikram, we talk about the five qualities of mind that you need to practice yoga, and all of them are applicable. So you need a determination. You know from the very beginning, you need to be able to roll up your sleeves and do the work. Be disciplined, get in there and do it self control, which is another one from, again, doing the work, learning the craft, to starting to understand client negotiations and client management. You know, we've all been in a difficult client situation where, gosh,

If you've been doing all the things, listening to the advice of the experts, and you're still not seeing results, maybe the thing holding you back is your mindset. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I'm speaking with former copywriter and current mindset coach, Brian McCarthy. We talked about burnout, imposter complex, confidence and much more. If you're doing "all the things" and still not reaching your goals, this episode is for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Emily Reagan’s Interview Tanya Geisler’s Interview (Imposter Complex) Brian’s Website Imposter Complex eBook The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground The How to Write Emotional Copy Masterclass   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Maybe the thing keeping you from getting what you want and working with the clients you deserve is you. Want to know more? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Content writers, copywriters, social media writers, and marketers of all kinds face a bunch of challenges when it comes to building a successful business that supports the lifestyle that we all want.  We talk about finding clients on the podcast a lot… maybe too much because there are other challenges… figuring out our niches, creating irresistable products and services that clients want to buy, pricing, positioning, marketing, and of course writing and so on. All of those business skills are important. If you can’t do them yourself or if you can’t hire someone else to do these for you, you’ll struggle as a business owner. But there is a whole other set of skills that we often overlook that also impact your ability to grow your business. We generally think of these hidden skills as mindset. And that’s what we’re talking about on today’s podcast. My guest is former copywriter and current mindset coach Brian McCarthy. Brian works with copywriters and others to help them work through mindset blocks and develop new skills to overcome them. Things like growing confidence, finding clarity and alignment, over coming imposter complex and a lot more. If you’ve been doing everything right but still struggle to get traction or feel like you’re making a difference in the world… or even just for your clients, maybe refocusing your efforts on mindset is what’s called for. So keep listening for our thoughts on these critical, but often ignored, mindset skills. Before we jump into our interview, a little while ago I recorded a masterclass to show copywriters, content writers and other marketers how to write “emotional” copy. Everyone says emotions sell, but how do you actually write emotional copy? I walk through more than a dozen examples in this masterclass and give you a proven process for figuring out the right emotions to focus on as you write… and how they change as you make your pitch. The masterclass includes several bonuses on storytelling, using A.I. to find dominant and transformational emotions, and much more. You can get this masterclass at thecopywriterclub.com/emotion And now, my interview with Brian McCarthy. Brian, welcome to the podcast. I'm thrilled to have you here, like we were saying, just as we were chatting before we started recording, we met briefly a bunch of years ago, you were doing something slightly different than what you did today. Yeah, tell me just how did you get here. You're a mindset coach, but you also have a pretty big background in copywriting. So tell me about that? Brian McCarthy: Yeah, so I started copywriting, I don't know 20, 2014 or so got into that world, and I was always copywriting for a lot of personal growth companies and coaches. I was just very into the personal growth world. And then eventually, like, found my I was doing launches, I was doing case studies, those became like my my main even wrote a book on how to do case studies like that kind of became my main focus. And then I was when the pandemic hit. One of my clients was this big life coach, Ronnie Britton, she's amazing, and she has a coach. She has a program teaching people how to coach. And then I was like, that seems like a useful skill. I'll do it. And then took the program, and as I started coaching people, I was like, Oh, this is the greatest thing in the world. And eventually moved from copywriting into coaching full time. And it was one of those, like, oh yeah, no. Like, I was always feeling that nudge to be in the personal growth world, like, yeah, no, wonder. And even during my copywriting career, it always felt like this is a stepping stone to something else. I just didn't know what that something else was. Then once I found coaching, I was like, oh, it's it's that, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So before we jump into all the stuff you're doing as coaching, I'd love to dive into your copy career just a little bit, because six, six years as a copywriter is nothing to sniff at, you know, writing a book about case studies. So let's talk about that. How did you get started as a copywriter, and how did you really find those first couple of clients? I got started. I was just listening to podcasts while working at a corporate desk job that was slowly destroying my soul. And I was like, Oh, this sounds kind of nice, yeah, just, you know, travel and write and be on a beach and fire off a letter, and you make a bunch of money and everyone loves you. That sounds like a pretty good career. And then so I ended up, like, getting a severance from that job, say, like, merged and, and I was like, I'm just gonna try this Copyright thing, and spent the first year and a half just fighting for jobs on jobs boards being making little to no money, literally, like, I'd calculate my hourly rate, and I'm like, I made pennies on this ebook per hour. Like, so just slogging it out that was tough. And then eventually things started to stabilize. I got a job with Ramit Sethi, I Will Teach You To Be Rich.  I was a senior copywriter with them for about a year, and then left that after a year, and then started to do the freelance thing, and got ended up with, like, feast or famine kind of thing. Like, it was actually going pretty well, but it was really unstable. Like, I finally did that, like, all right, making six figures, traveling the world a bit. It wasn't, wasn't all that easy to get to that point, but I got there and then got a couple steady retainer clients eventually after that, where I had like two clients, was making good money working, you know, three or four hours a day and able to travel. So that was kind of like my initial goal of what I wanted, what I wanted to hit as a copywriter. And I was like, oh, hit that. And then, of course, had, and again, it was like for personal growth companies, this parenting company that's wonderful.  So I was very fortunate. I've always loved my clients and been able to write for just wonderful people and great programs. Again, doing a lot of launches, case studies, some email marketing stuff. I always liked the longer form sales page and the more in depth, bigger projects, the you know, Hey, can I hire you for four emails? I'm like, What are you talking about? I have to learn so much to write four emails. I can write you like a 40 page letter. That was always more what drew me Rob Marsh: Me too. I'm the same way. I love writing emails, but sales, sales. Email sells copies where I live. Okay, so you've got this interesting skill set that you've developed since then, but I wonder, you know if you were coaching Brian McCarthy, copywriter just starting out making pennies per project, what mindset skills would you teach him, or would you basically walk him through in order to help him deal with that struggle or make progress faster for beginning copywriters, I guess the question is, what are the mindset things that we need to be focused on in order to make progress? Brian McCarthy: Yeah, great question. A couple things jump out based on a lot of the copywriters that I coach, and especially the ones that are just starting out. There's one big piece is alignment of finding what actually inspires you and excites you. It's really easy, and it's copywriting world and online marketing world to get to seduced by like, Well, the big name person says that this is the best route to go. So now I'm gonna start us build a social media presence. Do you like social like? Do you like Instagram? Do you like social media? No, but it's the it says. They say it's the best way. So now I'm going to do that. I'm like, no, no, let's find what actually works for you. So maybe that's Instagram and social media, but maybe feeling more inclined to something else, whether that's the method for growing your business, or the type of copywriting you want to do, or the type of companies you want to do, one is just getting like, the noise and all the stuff out there can be helpful and has its place. But first, let's start with what's really inspiring and aligned for you. Then the next piece. So that would be the first like clarity piece, and then the next piece would be the confidence piece of like, okay, how can let's build up your confidence in a way that's authentic, where you can own, even if you're just starting out, you can still own the various skills and values and what you bring to the table beyond because a lot of people get stuck in, like, what I I don't have the copywriting experience, and that's all that matters. And it's just the skills. It's like, yeah, that's yeah, that's all important. And other things matter too. Are like, your ability to take feedback is super important. Your ability to communicate well, to hit deadlines. There's all these other things, your passion for the work, your ability to listen and like find what the actual like thing worth talking about, even is there's all these other things that people don't they lose sight of the importance of it,

This isn't the first time we've talked about LinkedIn. But in this episode, we cover specific recommendations for the content you should create and post as well as a proven process for connecting with clients. My guest is content writer Divya Agrawal and what she shared could change your approach to LinkedIn for the better. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Divya's LinkedIn Find Your Clients on LinkedIn (Divya's Lead Magnet) The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground The How to Write Emotional Copy Masterclass   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you’ve got enough clients or you’re not willing to put yourself out there to find the clients you need, well, you can probably skip this episode. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Like last week, we’re revisiting a recurring topic on the show this week, but unlike last week, the recurring topics isn’t persuasion or psychology. This week we’re talking about the biggest challenge facing almost all copywriters and that’s finding clients. Even established copywriters will struggle with this from time to time. One of the trusims of business is that if you don’t have clients willing to pay you for the work you do, it doesn’t matter how good your website is, it doesn’t matter how good a writer you are, it doesn’t matter that you can solve your client’s problems better than anyone else… without the client, you don’t have a business. My guest this week is Divya Agrawal, a SaaS and Tech copywriter who has deep experience finding clients on LinkedIn.  Divya started her career as a programmer but quickly figured out she was on the wrong job track, so she switched to writing. The lessons she shares from her experience launching this new business will help any copywriter or content writer who is looking for clients to work with. Specifically, Divya used LinkedIn to create connections with prospects. Her success posting content and making comments on other posts is a model for other writers who want to do the same… and LinkedIn is where a significant number of the people who hire copywriters hangout and connect. If your clients are there, you need to be there too. In this interview, Divya shares the questions she uses to vet her prospects before they become clients, and she outlines exactly how you can connect with clients on LinkedIn yourself. This is informaiton she charges her coaching clients for, but she’s sharing much of it today for free. Before we jump into our interview, a little while ago I recorded a masterclass to show copywriters, content writers and other marketers how to write “emotional” copy. Everyone says emotions sell, but how do you actually write emotional copy? I walk through more than a dozen examples in this masterclass and give you a proven process for figuring out the right emotions to focus on as you write… and how they change as you make your pitch. The masterclass includes several bonuses on storytelling, using A.I. to find dominant and transformational emotions, and much more. You can get this masterclass at thecopywriterclub.com/emotion And now, my interview with Divya Agrawal. Divya, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to hear your story and to talk about how you're finding clients, but tell us, how did you become a freelance copywriter for Tech. Divya Agrawal: Thank you so much for having me on the podcast, Rob, I highly appreciate this chance to talk to you. I have been a big fan of your podcast, so it's really cool that I get to sit here and share what I know. Yeah, I became a freelance tech writer back in 2017 end of 2017 after a year long stint at a IT company as a software engineer, I was a Salesforce developer for a year, and that didn't work out. I did not like the corporate environment. I did not like the work I was doing. So then I was like, I need to do something else. I had always been a writer. So I was one of those kids in school who is asked to write other kids speeches. So I was the introvert writing speeches for my more extroverted friends, who would get on stages and deliver those speeches. I was participating in essay competitions, all of those things.  So I also had a lot of passion for technology. I was always learning about new technologies. I was good at development, if I do say so myself. So when I decided to shift gears, I was like, let me try and combine two of my passions, writing and technology, and that's how I got into it. I had a little bit of an internship experience at a local IT company writing their social media content. So I when I decided to do this full time, I reached out to the HR. I was like, This is what I'm doing full time now. Do you have contacts for me? And he put me in touch with a bunch of companies, and that's how I got my first client. Rob Marsh: So as you were reaching back to the school and they gave you these contacts, did he make warm introductions, or did you have to reach out to them directly, like how. Did that all come together? Divya Agrawal: Yes. So when I reached out to the HR at the company that I had interned with, I just had to tell him that, you know, this is what I'm doing full time, and he knew that I was good at writing. I understood technology and how it worked. So he confidently put me in touch with other people, and I actually didn't have to do a lot of convincing. It was actually really easy to get my first client. Of course, I have experienced other struggles in business later, but getting my first few clients was not a struggle. Rob Marsh: So you have a background in programming and technology, obviously, that gives you some advantage in writing for tech. But as a writer, do you think that copywriters need to know you know tech, to write for tech or SAT you know they need to have maybe done some development work in order to write for SaaS companies? Or how does that skill set benefit you or hold copywriters back? Divya Agrawal: I would say, if you are working for SAS, you do not need a lot of development experience. But for the for the kind of clients that I work with, they are deeply into technology, and I, even I with my background, have to spend some time understanding what exactly they do. So let's say I worked with a an AI ops client. So then I had to understand what aiops does. I had to understand how IT operations work in IT companies and all of those areas. I had to deeply read and understand about them before I began working with the client, my clients also help me with the right materials, like they have internal marketing materials that I study and prepare myself with. But if you are doing SaaS or less complicated technology writing, I don't think it's important to have a degree in computer science, because as writers, I believe we can write about anything, because the skill lies in asking the right questions and not in knowing all the answers. So I don't think that a degree is important. And I have proof about this because I worked as a writer for a age for an agency in the US that works with law firms, and I didn't know anything about any laws, even in India, let alone the US, but I was able to work with them because I was able to ask the right questions. Rob Marsh: And what are some of those questions, and I should maybe just jump in. I totally agree with you. I think you know, when we're writing about things, obviously it helps to understand how a mechanism works or how a program functions, but the real thing that we're selling is the benefit for the client or the end user. And so as long as you understand how that, you know, this transformation happens this result they get, obviously, we could write about it, but you know, in in thinking about this of what are those questions that you're asking to get to that end result? Divya Agrawal: First of all, I asked about the buyer group that we are targeting for a specific piece of content in B to B, there are buyer groups. And then I try to understand if there's a specific buyer persona that the post or the white paper is aimed at, what are their specific challenges? What is the status quo? What are they struggling with right now that my client is trying to solve with their product, and then I try to understand what is their competitive positioning. So who are the other competitors in the market? A lot of the times, status quo is the competition. So how things are done in legacy companies with legacy IT systems is generally the competition. So then I try to understand whether if that's the case, or if there are other players in competition, and how my client's product is different from those competitors, and how they are trying to position and what is the narrative that they are bringing to to make the buyer understand that this is the status quo. This is what you're losing out on right now, and here's what how we can shift it, here's how we can improve it, and here's how the competitors are doing, but here's why that's a weaker solution, and here's why ours is stronger. So those are the things that go into it. And then, yeah, and then finally, bringing the products, features, benefits, into the limelight as and when the piece demands it. Rob Marsh: That makes sense. Okay, so let's go back to your story. You were launching this writing business, you reached out to get these referrals. But obviously, referrals don't last forever. You've got to continue to grow your business. So what was the next step for you as you were looking for additional clients? Divya Agrawal: Yeah, early on, I really heavily relied on LinkedIn. LinkedIn was still very in its early stages. This is 2018 2019 and there were a handful of creators who were doing videos on LinkedIn. And I started doing videos, you know, I was in that young person. I was with that young person energy in my early 20s. So I was experimenting with everything,

In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we're talking about how con men, pick-up artists, magicians and yes, copywriters, use psychology and persuasion to get readers to pay attention and change their behavior. My guest is copywriter John Bejakovic who has just published a new book on the topic. If you want to be a better writer, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The 10 Commandments Book John's first interview The Katelyn Bourgoin Interview The Sarah Levinger Interview The Richard Armstrong Interview The Parris Lampropouos Interview The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground The How to Write Emotional Copy Masterclass Transcript: Rob Marsh: Looking for non-obvious ways to be more persuasive? Today we’re talking about the ten commandments of con men, pick up artists, comedians and others. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Over the last couple of months, I’ve interviewed a couple of guests about psychology and persuasion… on episode 447 I talked with Katelyn Bourgoin and on episode 448, I spoke with Sarah Levinger. In both of those interviews we talked about using psychology and principles from behavioral economics and neuroscience. Today’s episode covers similar ground in a very different way. My guest is copywriter John Bejakovic. John runs one of the best daily email lists out there, sharing his throughts on marketing, sales, and persuasion. He recently published a book about these topics called, The 10 Commandments of Con Men, Pick Up Artists, Magicians, Door-to-Door Salesmen, Hypnotists, Copywriters, Professional Negotiators, Political Propagandists, Stand Up Comedians, and Oscar-Winning Screenwriters. It’s a long title for a short book that covers a lot of ground. I wanted to talk to John about the ideas in his book, but more than that, I wanted to discuss the ethics of using these kinds of tactics to get our readers and prospects to take action.  If you want to be a better writer or a more effective communicator or simply want to help your children or customers or friends use information to make better decisions, I think you’ll like this episode. These topics really appeal to me. Not just as a writer or marketer so I can use these techniques myself, but also as a consumer. You can’t avoid the con men who use these tactics unless you understand the tactics and how they use them. Being smart is not enough to avoid responding positively to the ideas we talk about on this episode. Before we jump into our interview, a little while ago I recorded a masterclass to show copywriters, content writers and other marketers how to write “emotional” copy. Everyone says emotions sell, but how do you actually write emotional copy? I walk through more than a dozen examples in this masterclass and give you a proven process for figuring out the right emotions to focus on as you write… and how they change as you make your pitch. The masterclass includes several bonuses on storytelling, using A.I. to find dominant and transformational emotions, and much more. You can get this masterclass at thecopywriterclub.com/emotion And now, my interview with John Bejakovic. Rob Marsh: Hey, John, welcome back to the podcast. You were here, I think it was literally two years ago, Episode 365, where we talked about a lot of different stuff, and people maybe can go back and listen to that, but catch me up on what's been going on in your business, and this new book you've got. John Bejakovic: Yeah, sure. So, yeah, I was thinking about that. It's been about two years since I was on the podcast last and I think we talked about email and things like that, because that's kind of my bread and butter. And then at the end of that podcast, you were kind of asking me, what I'm what am I working on? And I was working on this book at that time, and the plan was to have this book, which is a kind of an intersection of different disciplines and the commonalities between disciplines like sales and copywriting, but also things like con artists and pickup artists and stand up comedians and screenwriters. And at that time, I already had a pretty clear idea of what I wanted to write in the book, and I was very, very enthusiastic and thinking, I'm going to get the book out in the next few weeks, month or two. And it took me a long time to get the book out, and I finally managed to do it this spring, so, or maybe a little more than a month ago. So the book is out, and it's exactly what I was planning on being in. You know, you helped me out with, actually, some of the final edits and so on. So that's kind of the main thing. Otherwise, I'm still very much just focused on email and writing daily emails and writing about persuasion and marketing and copywriting, but the book is the one significant achievement advantage in the past couple of years. Rob Marsh: I love this book. I actually sent an email to my list, sharing it with people and talking about something that Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote the book Big Magic, talks about in her book. There, she mentions this experience that she has where she had an idea for a book and she was noodling on it for a while. And didn't really do anything with it. And then she had lunch with another friend who had the exact same idea come to her, and she basically said, hey, when you know ideas move from person to person, and if you don't take it on, somebody else will. And I think I told you this, you know, maybe shortly after we talked on the podcast, I've been thinking about writing this, almost this exact same book. Your your title is a little bit more comprehensive. You know, I was thinking of, you know, the persuasion secrets of con men and charlatans and copywriters. And you've literally written the, not exactly the way I would write it, but it's literally the book that I wanted to write. And I don't know if the idea hopped for me to you, or occurred to us both simultaneously, or it's just this idea that needed to happen, but you brought it to life. And I think it's a fantastic book. John Bejakovic: Thank you. I think it's something that's in the water because of the people that I'm profiling in the book are all of the disciplines. There's a lot of people. That's something I didn't really write about in the book. There's a lot of people who started out in one of these disciplines and then who moved to another one, who spotted the same commonalities. So, you know, I think the most famous in our little world is maybe Dan Kennedy, who talks about how all the best copywriters had direct door to door to door sales experience, you know, and all the copywriters that he knows who really became excellent copywriters, they started out going to door to door and how, you know, so many of the the mindsets as well as the techniques from sales apply to copywriting. And I think, like Gary Bencivenga was also famous at that Gary Bencivenga never did the door to door stuff, but he definitely talked about how one of the the secrets to being, you know, a successful one of the secrets to his being such a successful copywriter, is that he went back and he studied what salesmen were were doing. But it goes the other way around. So again, going back to some of these disciplines. So, you know, I'm profiling pickup artists in there, and one of the most famous pickup artists, this guy named mystery, who wore this big top hat, and he was on BH one, well, he started out as a magician, right? So he was like a club magician, before he started approaching girls in clubs. And I don't know how consciously he brought in some of the ideas from that into into that pickup, seduction world. But it was definitely there. And likewise, for hypnosis, I feel like there's people who have noticed that there's a lot of commonalities in these things. So I think it was, I think, I think a lot of people who are, who have been in parts of this world that I'm talking about, I've noticed the commonalities is just that, because I already had that concept of the 10 Commandments, and I wanted to have 10 separate disciplines, I went and I really looked at 10 separate disciplines that have some sort of an overlap, or that have a significant overlap. And I think there might have been one or two more that that I skipped just because they wouldn't have fit within the umbrella of 10 Commandments, but, um, but, yeah, I think it's, it's kind of just in the water. Rob Marsh: It's good. I'm holding up the book for anybody who's listening. But it, The book is called The 10 Commandments of Con Men, Pickup Artists, Magicians, Door-t-Door Salesmen, Hypnotists, Copywriters, Professional Negotiators, Political Propagandists, Stand up Comedians and Oscar-Winning Screenwriters. Yeah, let's talk about some of these commandments or secrets. The last time we talked, I mentioned a book by Darren Brown that you pointed out we're not actually like. It's one of the supposed secret books that sort of passed around underground amongst copywriters and everybody says, don't talk about it. It's, it's one of those secrets. People can go back and listen to that episode if they want to know what book that is. But Darren Brown happens to make an appearance in this book, as well as one of these experts, persuasion. I don't he's not a con man, necessarily, but he exposes a lot of cons, you know, in his shows and stuff. So, yeah, let's talk about some of these commandments. John Bejakovic: Darren Brown appears twice in the book, and I don't know, for people maybe, who don't know Darren Brown. So he's, he's kind of a stage performer. He's done hypnosis, he's done mentalism. He's also had a bunch of TV shows in the UK where basically the kind of stuff that I cover in this book is the kind of stuff that he talks about in his shows, but he actually puts it into practice. And so when I was writing this book, I did.

Looking for clients? In this episode I'm sharing 21 different ideas for ways to connect with clients for your copywriting business. I guarantee you'll find at least one idea—and probably more like four or five ideas—that will work for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Youtube Channel The Finding Clients Ignition Kit The P7 Client Acquisition System The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: How do you find new or better clients? Here are 21 different ideas you might want to try. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. This episode of the podcast is going to be different from any episode I’ve done recently… in fact, in more than 450 different episodes, I can’t remember ever having an episode where not only did I not have a guest, but also didn’t have a co-host or someone else to chat with and bounce ideas around with. So in a sense, we’re making Copywriter Club history right now. But we’re not covering a new topic. In fact, we’ve talked about finding clients on almost every interview we’ve conducted with copywriters over the last eight years. And my guests have shared a ton of great ideas for finding clients. At some point in the future, I’d love to create a supercut of all the ideas we’ve shared over the years… but that would be dozens of hours long and it’s not at the top of my to-do list at the moment. However, on this episode, I’m going to share 21 different ideas, actually it will probably be more, 21 different ideas for ways to find clients. Not all of them will work for you. But I promise, if you stick around to the end of this episode, you’ll find at least one and probably five or six ideas that WILL work for you and that you can start using right now. I’m also going to share some advice… the dos and don’ts of reaching out to clients—some of the things you need to do first and what you absolutely can’t afford to do. If this topic appeals to you, I’ve got a couple of resources for you. The first is The Copywriter Club Youtube channel. I’ve posted several videos there about finding clients, pitching clients, the questions to ask to attract clients and more. Those videos are relatively short and will help you improve your outreach process so be sure to check them out. And I’ve put together a mini offer I’m calling the Client Finding Ignition Kit. It includes a 36 page report that covers what I’m talking about in this episode at more depth, and also includes three different workshops on finding clients. One focuses on Upwork and other online marketplaces, another is all about what’s working on LinkedIn, and the third is all about what to do if you need to find clients right now. And it also includes a one-time coaching call to talk about your approach and your pitch to make sure it will work. If you want that, go to thecopywriterclub.com/ignition Finally, I won’t go through all the stuff it includes, but there are a ton of resources in The Copywriter Underground to help you find, pitch, and land clients. If you want to find a full-time job, there’s a workshop all about that. If you want to improve your discovery calls, there’s a workshop and playbook all about that. If you want to go deep on what’s working on LinkedIn, Upwork, and several other places to find clients, there are resources for all of those too. And that’s on top of all the other workshops, coaching, community, lead sharing and more… that’s all available at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. Before I jump into that first idea, though, I want to just talk about a couple of things that are really important to keep in mind before you start finding clients. The first idea is that you do not have a business without clients. This is the thing that we do. We write copy. But if we're not writing copy for a client who's paying us to do it, we don't actually have a business. We're just doing this thing. So whether you have one client you spend all of your time on, or you have 19 or 20 clients, you're writing small things for over the course of the month, someone has to pay the bill. Someone has to pay you for this skill that you have, and if you don't have clients, that's the very first thing that you need to do. So don't spend any time getting ready in your business. And by that, I mean don't spend any time building a website. Don't think about even building a portfolio. You don't have to worry about having a social media presence. You don't even need a LinkedIn page or anything like that. What you need is a client. And so I want you to go out there and land that first client. Now there's some things that you're going to have to do in order to do that. We'll talk about these in a minute, but I want you to land that first client, and then once you've had that client, you've done. The assignment. You've created a piece of copy, you've solved a problem for them. You're going to do it again. You're going to find a second client, and you're going to do the same exact thing before you do your website, before you have a LinkedIn page, before you have social media presence, you can go out and find the second client. You're going to solve a problem for them, and then the third time, you're going to find a third client, and you're going to solve a problem for them, probably writing copy or the thing that you want to do. And once you've done that three times, once you've acquired and proven that you can find clients, that's when you're going to back up and say, Okay, I'm going to get my business assets ready. So it's going to make it easier for me to find the next client. In order to do that, you need to do a couple of things. First, you need to identify who you serve. There are so many ways to look at this, and mostly we think about this as choosing a niche. I help people in the health and wellness niche, or I write copy for finance companies, or I help Coaches find clients, right? We talk about this generally by industry, the industry that we work on, but there are so many different other ways to think about niching as well. You can niche by the type of client that you work with. Let's say that you like working with enterprise level clients or mom and pops or startups that have gone through their second round of funding. Lots of different ways to cut this so that you're working with a certain kind of client, but if you you know, help mom and pops solve their marketing problems, or help them solve their email sequence problems, or whatever. The thing is, you can do that for mom and pops across many industries, or you can do that for a variety of different clients across all kinds of other ways that we think about niching. Another way that you can be thinking about this is the problem that you solve. So if you are a copywriter who helps businesses or memberships reduce churn, or helps a SaaS company reduce the churn on their monthly signups. You could you're basically identifying that problem reducing churn, right? Or maybe you're the problem you solve is onboarding customers into different kinds of programs or software. Maybe the problem that you are solving for people is acquisition, customer acquisition, Facebook ads, those kinds of things. So there are lots of different ways to look at marketing problems. In fact, there are so many marketing problems always copywriters can solve. We put together a list of more than 30 different marketing problems and included it with our P7 Client Acquisition Program. I didn't talk about that at the beginning of the show, but if you want more information about that, you can find it at thecopywriterclub.com/p7 there's this massive list of problems that you as a copywriter or a content writer as a marketer can solve for your clients. Oftentimes it will involve writing copy or writing content, but sometimes these problems are attached to the things that we do, and we can think a little bit bigger about the problems that we're helping our clients solve. Another way to think about who you serve is the voice of the style that you write in. There are certain clients who want a particular voice or style, and if you can capture that and talk about that in a way that attracts them again. It's another way to niche your business. You could also help businesses at different stages. So you know, whether they are a startup, whether they are in a later stage of development. You know small to medium size or medium to large size businesses, the different stages that a business goes through, comes with additional problems that they need to solve, and additional opportunities where you can step in and help. Another way to think about this is the deliverable you create. Maybe you are the only person who writes welcome sequences for your clients, or you help them solve a problem with creating weekly regular content that drives traffic to a variety of products, whether that's on their blog or elsewhere online. Maybe you help with social media and the deliverables there are related to the platform where you're posting. So there's lots of different ways to think about who it is that you serve, but after you have found those first three clients, what are the things that those clients have in common, and is there something that can indicate who it is that you are able to help right now that doesn't have to stay static. You can change this over time, but when you're just getting started, or when you're looking for clients, you want to be looking at some of the clients that you've already worked with. What do they have in common? Because you know, you can help them, and you should be able to find more people like them. You also want to be able to identify the problem that you're solving. So we've talked a little bit about that as we're talking about niching, but the more you know about the problem you solve, the better. You can talk about it,

What do you do when the worst happens in business? Are you prepared? In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with copywriter Topaz Hooper about the steps you should be taking now to prepare for an economic downturn. The ideas we talk about here are good business practices even if the economy booms. But they become more important when things are uncertain. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: American Copywriter Co. Topaz's new Instagram The first interview with Topaz The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Are you prepared for the worst in your business… economic downturns, recessions, the loss of clients and ongoing projects? If not, this episode is for you. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. In today’s episode I’m catching up with Topaz Hooper who was a guest on the show several years ago. Topaz’s business has followed the trend that so many copywriters and other freelancers followed through the pandemic and afterwards. Most of us saw a nice bump in clients and revenues but then things started to change and she’s had to reinvent her business to adjust to the changes. We’ll get into that in the interview. Topaz also happens to be the second American expat who is living and working in The Netherlands that I’ve had on the podcast over the past couple of weeks. That wasn’t intentional, but maybe this was a hint that more of us could be living overseas and working with clients here in the states. I don’t know. The big topic we covered in this podcast is how to survive in a recession. We are not in a recession—at least as far as the general business cycle goes—at the moment, but there have been some difficult economic events that have scared a few people and caused them to predict that a recession is somewhere out there on the horizon. We are not predicting a recession, but we are talking about how to be prepared for it if it happens to come… maybe this year, maybe next, but certainly at some point in the future. But beyond the general economic environment, there have been micro effects in the copywriting world… things like A.I. taking on a lot of work, especially at the lower end of the spectrum. And some industries, finance and tech come to mind, have suffered their own downturns with layoffs and clients cancelling projects. So while these haven’t shown up in the overall macro-environment, what you see happening in your niche may be close to a what an actual recession might feel like. If you’ve felt that, you’ll want to listen to this whole episode. One more thing I want to mention, I talked about this topic—preparing for a recession—at The Copywriter Club In Real Life in 2020… that was right before the last mini-recession happened. Topaz and I talk about some of those ideas on this episode, but you can go even deeper with them in an article written by Anna Hetzel. I’ll link to that article in the show notes if you want to check it out. It’s worth reading. Before we jump into our interview, this is probably the last time I’ll mention this for a while but I want to share with you all of my research secrets… especially my 4:20+ research method that helps copywriters like you uncover the ideas and insights you need to write great sales copy. It’s part of Research Mastery which also includes more than twenty different techniques for capturing ideas, all of the questions I use to learn more about my client, their product, their customers and their competitors as well as the documents you need to capture your research and several tutorials on how to use A.I. to speed up your processes and even help with your research itself.  There’s a bonus on using Airtable to collect and sort your data and more… You can learn more about this unique resource at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery… research mastery is all one word. Check it out now at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery. And now, my interview with Topaz Hooper. Topaz, welcome back to the podcast. It's great to have you here, excited for this discussion, talk, chat, whatever we're gonna whatever we're gonna call it, but you were here a few years ago episode number 305, catch me up. What has changed in your life since we talked about cruelty free copywriting and sales and all of those things. Topaz Hooper: So the first time we chatted, thanks for having me back, Rob. It's so good to be here. Yeah, life has changed quite a bit. Cruelty Free copywriter was my baby in 2021 I think I jumped on the pod, like you said in the 300th episode somewhere. And at that time, vegan food, plant based fashion, clean beauty were all rising and they were really heavily funded, and they needed copywriters everywhere. And I couldn't be everywhere, but I had a very good, successful business. And since then, you know, people are feeling a bit of a financial pinch these days, and those industries are not doing as well. So I've had to pivot quite a bit and launch new things and do new things. So I'm excited to get into how I'm sort of pivoting in this era of quasi recession, energy and maybe how others can learn from what I've done. Rob Marsh: Okay, this is really interesting, and I think it's going to be a really good conversation, because, like you said, things have changed. Especially here in the States, there's a lot of uncertainty about what's going to be happening tomorrow or next week, or what's not going to be happening. And things seem to be up in the air. There is talk of recessions, political policy, maybe bringing that faster or slower. But regardless of, even if you set all of that stuff aside, the business cycle itself, every 7 to 10 years, we go through some ups and downs. And this last cycle, we've had things like AI, we've had some layoffs in the tech sector because of that, which has brought more people into the copywriting world. And so before we start talking about some of the things that you've done to shift as you were looking at your business, what made you realize that things were changing? What were some of those first indicators where you're like, I need to start paying attention or like, for a lot of us, sometimes that just goes over our heads and suddenly we just don't have money, or we don't have clients, and we're like, Okay, we got a problem here. Topaz Hooper: Honestly, I was paying attention to my clients on social media. Every single client that I have, or potential client. I follow them on social, and I like all their stuff, and so the algorithm sends me all their posts. And I just started seeing more and more of my favorite brands closing. And I was reading time after time due to unforeseen circumstances, we're closing the business, or, due to this sort of difficult time to launch a company, or to grow a company, or, you know, import, exports, you know, all these sort of business owner terms, I started to see that people were just closing shop. They're just like, people aren't buying our shoes anymore, or people who don't don't have money for this extra special thing, and we're closing so I start to see this trend happening, probably like middle of last year, 2024, to about now, 3 or 4 years after the other started closing, and I started to look into why that was happening. And so that's when I started to get a little bit worried. Okay, you know, if these are the people that I know of, imagine all the other brands in my niche that I typically serve. What are they going through? I also started to pay a lot of attention to LinkedIn. Some bigger brands were closing meaty, which is a popular vegan mushroom brand, sold for less than their value this year. I think they were valued at 50 million and they sold for 4 million recently. Those are signs that, you know, my industry is not doing well. And so what I started to notice was my favorite brands were closing shop, and that's why my inbox started to sound a little empty, a little bit like a cave with an echo. And so that's when I started to think, okay maybe something's wrong. And so I kind of had to become a bit of a quasi economics professor, and start digging into what is supply chain, and what are factors that make businesses close or open, and what does this mean for my business? Rob Marsh: This is interesting. So obviously, we need to be paying attention to the industries that we're working in if we're seeing this kind of stuff happening in our industries as well. What do we need to be doing? Let's talk about recession proofing, or preparing for what could happen with an economic downturn.  Topaz Hooper: Yes, first of all, kind of circling back, you got to become an economics professor or something. I know many of us, we are in the copywriting business because we love writing, or we love marketing or we love sales. We're not economics people. Maybe we know how to do our bookkeeping, but we don't look at inflation necessarily. And in the context of our business. We might think of it in our homes, oh, the price of milk is up or something. But we don't think about, what does that mean for my clients?  You know, I think we all need to start reading the jobs report. We should all start listening to the federal Federal Reserve Chair. We need to all be looking at the growth trajectory of our niches in the last six months or a year. And so I think we all need to start putting on our economics hats, because that tells us why we're not getting clients. It's more so those factors that impact the businesses that we serve, and less about whether your marketing was good that day or whether your social post was seen. And so for me, the big recession proofing process has been just that deep dive. Is it me or is it the market? And when I started to realize it's not me, my website still converts, my emails are still good. The market's not doing well. I started to say, Okay, what do I need to do now?

As the owner of a copywriting business, you have a lot to think about—your products, your clients, your research process, writing great copy, finding new clients and more. So it's no wonder we tend to push legal questions to the bottom of the to-do list until there's a problem. Don't do that. Andrea Sager is my guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. And she's got a lot of great legal advice on using A.I., contracts, business entities, and protecting your business and assets. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: AndreaSager.com Legalprenuer.com The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery Course Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Do you have questions about contracts, trademarks, business entities, and your legal risk and liabilities? Today, I have answers. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. About a year before I took on my first freelance writing project—I’m going back a long time here—I took the LSAT, that’s the test for admittance into law school. I had thought I would become a lawyer from about the time I was in eighth grade. And I did well enough on the test to get into most of the schools I was planning on applying to.  My plan at the time was to practice law in the non-profit sector. And to help with that goal, I decided to enroll into a Masters program in public administration. But once I started that program, I was so bored by the curriculum, I couldn’t envision myself finishing.  At the same time I met someone who asked me to write an article promoting a product for a company she was working for. When I realized I could make money as a writer, I turned my back on my dream of being an attorney and started writing copy. So when it comes to legal advice, I can’t really help, but my friend Andrea Sager can. Andrea has helped hundreds of small businesses with legal advice and services. I tried to ask her all of the legal questions copywriters tend to have about things like using A.I., contracts and agreements, trademarks, and how we limit our exposure to legal liability that could cost you your business, your home and more. This stuff matters. And I hope you enjoy this interview. Before we get to the interview, the last couple of weeks I’ve mentioned that I put everything I know about conducting research and using A.I. as part of my research process into a short course called Research Mastery. It includes a lot, but it’s not an overly long, impossible to watch course. Instead it’s the kind of course you can watch in an afternoon or weekend and walk away with a research process that helps you uncover the insights you need to write great sales copy. ..more than twenty different techniques for capturing ideas, … all of the questions I use to get find big ideas about my client, their product, their customers and their competitors as well as the documents you need to capture your research and several tutorials on how to use A.I. to speed up your processes and even help with your research itself. But unlike other research courses that take hours to watch and implement, this one will teach you everything you need to know in a single afternoon. You can learn more about this unique resource at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery… research mastery is all one word. I’ll link to that in the show notes so you can easily find the link if you can’t type the URL into your browser right now… thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery And now, my interview with Andrea Sager. Hey, Andrea, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. I am thrilled to have you here. It's been quite a while since we talked to an attorney about all of the stuff that we need to be thinking about in our businesses. So I'm excited to have you here, but before we get started, maybe you could tell us your story. Just how did you become an attorney, an author, founder of the legal preneur.com and if I'm reading your website correctly, last year, you were ranked in the number 22 trademark lawyer in America. How does that all happen?  Andrea Sager: Thank you so much for having me. I so I way back when I started my journey in big law I got the big, fancy, quote, unquote dream job right out of law school, which was the plan. I thought I was going to be married to my job work my way up to partner. And the first week there, I it hit me all of a sudden, and I remember thinking there is absolutely no way I can sit here for the next 40 years of my life, so immediately I'm trying to plan my exit. But it was a little harder because my husband, at the time we he was staying home with our son, and I was the only breadwinner. I was the only one making any income. But about seven months into my journey in big law. I always tell people I manifest getting fired, but ultimately I just wanted to work with small businesses. I had a previous small business where I had connections with other small business owners, and they kept coming to me at the firm, asking for help with trademarks and similar things that I do today for small businesses. I. And the firm didn't want to help them. And at the time, I was confused, because nobody was asking for a discount, nobody was asking for a discounted rate. They just needed help, and nobody to go to and so I saw this clear need in the market, and after seven months being at the firm, I had an idea that I would be able to survive if I went out on my own, but I couldn't exactly make the leap on my own, and luckily, the universe pushed me out and said, All right, here you go. You no longer have a job here, so you got to figure out how to make it work. So that the day that I got fired, I launched my law firm, and I was I was ready. I was planning on it. I launched my law firm, had my first client that night, and that was seven years ago, and it's been quite the journey ever since I launched my law firm. Andrea Sager law in 2018 legal preneur came about in 2020 when I wanted to reach even more entrepreneurs. And legal preneur Is the what we what I call the DIY side of things. We have all the resources. We can file your LLC. You can buy all the contract templates, all the legal related but no attorney client relationship. That is what legal preneur is. So it's just an opportunity to meet even more entrepreneurs where they're at and still providing all of the resources that you need to set up and grow and be successful as a business owner. So that's how I got started. It's been a wild ride, but it's it's been quite the journey, and just so fun. And I'm every day, I'm so honored to be able to serve entrepreneurs. And in my law firm, I primarily now just do trademarks, and that that's how I have been ranked so highly I've it honestly is an honor, just because that is my passion, is helping small businesses, and just being able to continue doing this year after year, day after day after seven years, it gets better every day, and I'm just excited for the next seven years. Rob Marsh: I'll bet most people, when they get fired, don't have the plan. They're not ready to go. It seems to be pretty shocking, and there's sort of a period of adjustment. Doesn't sound like that happened to you? You hit the ground running. Andrea Sager:  I was ready. What's funny, actually, is so we were living in Cincinnati at the time, and we were making the move to Houston, so on that Monday, we put our house for sale. Wednesday, I had texted my husband and said, I you know I can't he we knew I wasn't happy. We knew I wasn't going to stay there. But I said, I can't stand it here. I want to quit today. Can I just quit? I think we have enough money to hold us over until we move. And he said, Just wait until we have a contract on the house. That way we know it's going to sell. And I said, fair enough. Absolutely, that makes sense. Friday morning is when they walked into my office and told me that I had a choice to make, and they offered me a severance package, and I actually just packed up my thing so quickly and never went back. Rob Marsh: Well, that's the start of a good thing, and so what you're doing today is helping a lot of entrepreneurs, like you said, with legal stuff. So let's talk about this. Obviously, our audience here is copywriters, content writers, marketers, most of whom, but not all, most of whom, are freelancing in some capacity. Maybe it's their full time business. Maybe they're doing it on the side. Maybe they're trying to figure out how to do it full time. Where should they be thinking about legal stuff? That's maybe a terrible way to ask the question. What's the first thing that they should be saying? Okay, if I'm gonna do this thing right from the beginning or from where I am now, I'm gonna start doing it right, what's the first question they should be asking. Andrea Sager: Number one that you want to always take care of, no matter what business you're in, no matter what stage you're in, if you haven't done this already, it needs to be done yesterday, and that is filing an LLC, which is a limited liability company. And what I want to make sure everybody understands is, even if you're a freelancer or a contractor, you are a business owner. And I worked with so many people throughout the years where there is a misunderstanding and they think, Oh, I'm just a freelancer. I'm a contractor. I'm just a 1099, I don't have a business that is actually a business. And you have to make sure that once you take that first step to being a business owner or a freelancer, a contract, whatever you want to call it, you have to make sure you are protecting yourself every step of the way. And step number one is filing that LLC, which is a limited liability company, and the whole purpose of that is to make sure that you as an individual are protected from the debts of your company. Rob Marsh: So you say LLC, obviously there are a lot of different kinds of business entities, and there's maybe some crossover here between,

Copywriters have been using LinkedIn to connect with and land clients for years. So why is it still so difficult to grow an audience on that platform? I asked copywriter and LinkedIn Strategist, matt Barker, to chat with me about this for the 450th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We talked about the best content to post, the biggest mistakes people make on LinkedIn, and how to get the right followers to pay attention to you. If you want clients to find you, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Matt's LinkedIn Matt's Website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery Course   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Looking for ideas for finding and connecting with potential clients on LinkedIn? You’re in the right place. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. There are a lot of ways to find and land clients. There’s cold emailing which allows you to choose the clients you want to work with—and if your pitch warms up your prospect and offers to solve the right problem for them, it can be very effective. Incidentally, if you want to learn how to cold pitch effectively, check out thecopywriterclub.com/lovenote.  Beyond cold pitching, another popular method for attracting clients to you is posting content on social media. And for copywriters, Instagram or LinkedIn seem to be the two go-to platforms. And yes, there are copywriters using other platforms like TikTok or Threads and seeing success there, most of the action seems to be on these other, older platforms. We’ve talked about finding clients on LinkedIn several times on the podcast. And in fact, we’ll talk about it again in the near future. But because so many copywriters are using thise platform to build an audience, it bears repeating some of that advice from time to time. But it’s not just repeating the same stuff… we’re looking for new ideas that work now. The algorythm is always changing, so keeping an eye on what’s working now is important. So with that as our preamble, I invited copywriter turned LinkedIn Audience Building Strategist, Matt Barker, to share with me—and you as my listener—what is working on LinkedIn right now. Matt has built an audience of more than 170,000 followers on LinkedIn. His posts get 100s of comments and when he shares his programs or other products, the sales follow. Matt will be the first to say that getting attention on LinkedIn is harder today than it was two or three years ago. But that doesn’t mean it’s hard to stand out. In this interview, Matt and I talked about what works, what he’s posting more of lately, and how sharing content to inspire and motivate can bring in more clients than posts pitching your services.  I think you’re going to like this interview… Before we get to the interview, just in case you missed this last week when I mentioned it, I put everything I know about conducting research and using A.I. as part of my research process into a short course called Research Mastery. It includes the 4:20+ research method that helps copywriters like you uncover the insights you need to write great sales copy. ..more than twenty different techniques for capturing ideas, … all of the questions I use to get find big ideas about my client, their product, their customers and their competitors as well as the documents you need to capture your research and several tutorials on how to use A.I. to speed up your processes and even help with your research itself. But unlike other resource courses that take hours to watch and implement, this one will teach you everything you need to know in a single afternoon. You can learn more about this unique resource at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery… research mastery is all one word. I’ll link to that in the show notes so you can easily find the link if you can’t type the URL into your browser right now… thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery And now, my interview with Matt Barker. Matt Barker: Yeah, thanks for having me on. By the way, I used to listen to this podcast a little bit when I was getting to learn copywriting and that sort of stuff three years ago. So thanks for what you do with your episodes, it's helping people maybe more than you know, appreciate that, yeah, but yeah, with my LinkedIn profile, it was I started writing on there in January 2022, the main purpose for that was to get copywriting clients. I just left my job about three or four months prior, I worked in marketing. I was in marketing for about eight years, B to B and B to C, so I kind of understood marketing pretty well, and copywriting was a small part of that, but I wasn't really sure how to be a really good copywriter. So. Yeah. Fast forward to when I started link running on LinkedIn, January 2022, I was using it primarily to try and get clients for my new copywriting business. I'd started, and it was pretty difficult at the start, because I just didn't I had this thing that a lot of people experience at the beginning, when they start kind of writing content online that's from their own perspective and their own personal profile, not through like a company logo, or like through their work, through a brand, where you just feel really kind of anxious and worried about what people will think of you, and you know, you're, you're putting yourself out there. And it was really difficult for the first sort of two or three months trying to, you know, kind of get over that. But so glad I did, because it and I kind of stuck to it. I would, I would read a lot of content about people who were doing similar things, writing content on LinkedIn consistently, and the kind of the power of, you know, having your, your own personal presence on on LinkedIn specifically, and as well as just set social media in general, so I could see that there was a long term benefit to it. So I kind of always had in my mind that I wanted to just stick to it and see what would come of it. And then after three months, I kind of had that, like there was a little breakthrough, of, like a post that done particularly well, and that was enough for me to be like, Ah, okay, this is, this, is really, this, like, could be, really be something. And it just kind of snowballed from there, really, I, I'm very data driven, so I was always looking at, like, what, why did this post work? How can I do more of that and do it and just consistently get better and better and better. And so it became a bit of an obsession, a bit of a kind of, you know, competition. You're looking at other people growing and doing other things and, yeah, just managed to be really consistent and constantly wanting to improve. I think is, is one of the big things Rob Marsh:  Or, you know what you were, you bumping along with one or two comments, and suddenly this one has, you know, hundreds or you know what, what did that look like? Matt Barker: The difference was, I was, yeah, I was posting every night, every two or three times, every week for about three months, and I was just getting like one like, three likes, four likes, no comments. It took me ages to even get a comment, I think, which is quite funny, but I think that's what most people experience. But yeah, the difference between that, that post that kind of had that initial reaction was, I think it got something like 80 likes or and 2030 comments, I can't remember, but I think, I think there was a certain creator with about 6,000 followers at the time who managed to see it, catch it, and engage with it, and I think that had a big impact. But the difference in writing of that post versus the other ones was kind of night and day, when you look at, like, what works on LinkedIn, it was like, there was a there was a proper hook, like a real hook that actually, like, grabbed someone and talked to a pain point and was compelling someone to actually read it. It was concise, it was kind of formatted. It was easy to read. So it was, yeah, I think when you look at that versus the stuff I was doing before that, it's quite clear, yeah. Rob Marsh: Let’s talk about that a little bit more deeply. You know, what is the best content to be posting on LinkedIn, so that you're actually getting engagement, and not just engagement from anybody, but engagement from the people that you want to work with, you know, people that maybe would hire you, you know, to do copy your content for them. Matt Barker: Yeah, it's, it's, it's an ever evolving thing the way, because, because these social platforms, they have their algorithms and that kind of dictates, you know, how much, how many impressions, and how what reach your posts get. But so that can, that can be a bit of a minefield, and that that can kind of make things not so consistent as they should be, as opposed to, like, traditionally, if you're writing a landing page or, like, a sales letter of some sort, where you're just driving traffic to that that piece of copy will just perform as it performs and you improve it, or as you improve it. You know, the only variance is the visitors. And on social platforms, you're kind. If there's, there's external factors which are kind of out of your control, but typically the kind of the writing process is the big frame. The main framework that was the most helpful for me, was understanding problem, agitate, solution. To start off by highlighting a big, painful problem for a specific target audience, agitate that problem, make it really feel real, and kind of be able to make the reader feel like, oh, this person really understands, like, the problem that I'm facing. They truly understand me, and obviously that comes from the research that you put into understanding your target audience and then presenting a solution. So whether that's like a step by step process that you have, or whether it's just a one line kind of motivational kind of sentence that's going to change their kind of beliefs.