The Roys Report

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/w2rB6NZogbgThe American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate. And, in a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger are rampant, people are turning elsewhere for help. In this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys welcomes Skye Jethani for a wide-ranging discussion on the crisis in the American church. Skye, a former editor at Christianity Today and former pastor, has for years co-hosted The Holy Post, a popular podcast. Recently, Skye wrote the provocatively titled book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In it, he looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in Scripture as a family—but in modern America, it's become a corporation. In its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtues of faith and love. As Skye writes, rather than feeling like valued members of God's family, today, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? For people who’ve had negative experiences in church and have lived through congregational crisis firsthand, this lively conversation brings clarity and hope. Guests Skye Jethani An award-winning author, speaker, and co-host of the Holy Post Podcast, Skye Jethani has written more than a dozen books and served as an editor and executive at Christianity Today for more than a decade. Raised in a religiously and ethnically diverse family, his curiosity about faith led him to study comparative religion before entering seminary and pastoral ministry. With a unique ability to connect Christian thought and contemporary culture, his voice has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, and The Washington Post. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie Roys: There’s no doubt the American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, the distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate and we have a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger is rampant, but people are turning elsewhere for help. [00:00:21] Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roy-. And today I’m going to be discussing the crisis in the American church with Skye Jethani. Skye is a former editor at Christianity Today and a former pastor. He’s also co-host of the podcast, The Holy Post. [00:00:40] Julie Roys: And he’s a speaker and author of numerous books, including the provocatively titled, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In the book, Skye looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then he compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in scripture as a family, but in modern America, it’s become a corporation. [00:01:05] Julie Roys: And in its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtue of love. As Skye writes, now, rather than feeling like valued members of God’s family, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? [00:01:28] Julie Roys: I’m so excited to speak with Skye about the church, not just because he’s a great thinker and teacher, but because he’s my brother. Skye attends the same house church that my family attends, and I’ve seen his commitment to the church on a day to day, week by week basis, and it’s because of people like Skye that I haven’t given up on the church, even though I’ve had a ton of negative experiences. I still believe in the church. I still see her beauty. And so I’m so excited to share this podcast with you. [00:01:49] Julie Roys: But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. [00:02:16] Julie Roys: The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like- minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Julie Roys: Also if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. [00:03:26] Julie Roys: Well, again, joining me is Skye Jethani, a former pastor who now co-hosts the popular podcast, The Holy Post. He also speaks and writes books, including one that we’re offering to listeners this month called What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? So Skye, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:03:50] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. I’m happy to be here. [00:03:51] Julie Roys: And you may be surprised to know this, but I’ve actually mentioned you numerous times on this podcast. Do  about this? [00:03:58] Skye Jethani: I do not, because I have to confess, I’ve not listened. [00:04:01] Julie Roys: You haven’t listened to our podcast? Well, that’s okay, but I’ve listened to the Holy Post. I’ve actually been on the Holy Post, which has been really fun. I’ve mentioned you because I use this term that you coined called the evangelical industrial complex. And so whenever I do that, I try to give you credit. I say, , this isn’t my term. This is Skye’s term. [00:04:24] Skye Jethani: I don’t need credit, but you’re appreciated. It isn’t like I get a kickback or anything from every time it’s spoken, but. Yeah, I think it was 2012 I wrote an article that I first used that phrase, and it just took off. A lot of people have used it since then. [00:04:37] Julie Roys: Well, it’s a great term, but for those who are listening who haven’t heard it before, what is the evangelical industrial complex? [00:04:45] Skye Jethani: Right. So it’s a riff off of President Eisenhower in his farewell address to the country. It’s on YouTube. I recommend people go watch it. It’s very interesting, but he gave a televised address to the country where he warned about the military industrial complex. Of course, Eisenhower, having been a general and the commander of the forces in Europe during world war two had a lot of credibility when it came to military stuff. [00:05:08] Skye Jethani: And his concern was that there was this permanent arms industry that had been developed after world war two and the military industrial complex, he said, needed a perpetual conflict and warfare to continue its business model. And so I kind of adopted that phrase, but talking about the evangelical industrial complex, which is this financial money-making industry that constantly needs celebrity leaders, celebrity pastors in particular, and big events to perpetuate its business model. [00:05:39] Skye Jethani: And so it tends to elevate leaders who may be quite talented but lack the character or the maturity to handle large audiences or significant influence. But the evangelical industrial complex will prop them up, publish their books, get them on the big stage, build a big platform for them in order to make lots of money off of this person’s talent and reputation. [00:06:06] Skye Jethani: And then we’re shocked when they end up cracking under the pressure or falling into some controversy or their church implodes. And especially when I was working at Christianity Today, And I got around the country and I was seeing kind of behind the curtain in a lot of these places. I was noticing that tendency over and over and over again, where it wasn’t the Godly mature tested people who were given platforms. [00:06:27] Skye Jethani: It was young, attractive, talented people who were given platforms. And so looking at this in different angles, like I just said, this is about making money. This isn’t about really building up the church. And so that’s the evangelical industrial complex. [00:06:42] Julie Roys: And there’s so much that you just said; just in those few paragraphs about the church and some of our assumptions about the church, the fact that we can have an industrial complex, the fact that we have so many financial interests, and we’re going to dive into a lot of that today. [00:07:01] Julie Roys: And I love your book because you take all of these things that are kind of, we’ve just adopted because we swim in this soup, right? And we don’t even know kind of these false ideas about church that we’ve imbibed. But they’re there. And when you begin to contrast them with scripture, you’re l

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/XKwF1N--a00For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as lay leaders at Lakepointe Church, a megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area pastored by Josh Howerton. But as concerns about Howerton grew, Patrick and Mary found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now, they’re dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called “church refugees” feel. In this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Mary DeMuth joins host Julie Roys to talk about navigating church bewilderment. This is a condition more and more Christians are experiencing today, as scandal and corruption are increasingly seeping into the church. And if you caught the previous TRR podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lakepointe Church. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How much is okay to say, and what is gossip? How do you find another church home when you’re dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? These are crucial questions, which Mary—an internationally known author and a repeat speaker at our Restore Conference—admits she is wrestling with. And, as is so characteristic of Mary, she engages these questions with grace, wisdom, and a passion for truth and justice. Sadly, many churches have created a culture where it's not okay to talk about leaving a toxic church. But as Mary explains in this podcast, the church won't get better until we talk about it. Believers must begin to evaluate and process the toxicity in churches—and how we can truly become the Body of Christ. Mary has recently developed a Church Hurt Checklist to help people understand their situation and begin to process and articulate it. Download it free at marydemuth.com/churchhurt Guests Mary DeMuth Mary DeMuth is an international speaker, podcaster, and author of over 40 books, fiction and nonfiction, including The Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible and We Too: How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis. Mary lives in Texas with her husband of 30+ years and is mom to three adult children. Learn more at MaryDeMuth.com. Show Transcript Julie Roys: For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as leaders at a megachurch in the Dallas Fort Worth area. But as concerns about the current pastor grew, they found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now they’re dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called church refugees feel. Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And today, Mary DeMuth joins me to talk about navigating church bewilderment. Sadly, this is an issue many Christians are dealing with, as abuse, scandal, and corruption increasingly seem to be seeping into the church. Julie Roys: And if you caught our last podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lakepointe Church in the Dallas Fort Worth area, where Josh Howerton is Pastor. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. And if you missed our prior podcast, it was a real eye-opener and I encourage you to go back and listen to that. Julie Roys: Today’s podcast is a sequel to my podcast with Amanda, but rather than exposing the issues at Lakepointe today, Mary is going to be discussing the aftermath of leaving. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How do you know how much is okay to say? And what is gossip? And how do you find another church home when you’re dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? Julie Roys: These are crucial questions and ones that I know many of you are dealing with today. And so I’m so looking forward to diving into this topic with Mary DeMuth. But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Julie Roys: Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Julie Roys: Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. Julie Roys: And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable, rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and quality. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys: Again, joining me is Christian author and podcaster, Mary DeMuth, and many of Mary from her excellent books like We Too: Discussing the Sexual Abuse Crisis in the Church, and also her memoir, Thin Places. Mary also was a guest speaker at our last Restore Conference in 2022, and she’ll be speaking again at our Restore Conference in Phoenix in February in 2025. So we’re super looking forward to that. Julie Roys: But she joins me now to talk about something that’s been a very painful process for both her and Patrick, and that is leaving her church of 23 years, Lakepointe Church there in the Dallas Fort Worth area. So Mary, Thank you so much for being willing to talk about what I know has been a really difficult journey. Mary DeMuth: Thanks. I certainly prayed about this conversation and what I’ve noticed in this space is that a lot of people in the middle of it. are not articulating how they’re feeling because there’s this general pressure from churches that you leave that you aren’t supposed to say anything. And I think there’s a difference between, and we’ll talk about this, I’m sure, throughout this episode, but there’s a difference between leaving quietly and running around gossiping about things. Certainly, those are two different things. Mary DeMuth: But I think what we’ve done is we’ve created a culture of silence; you can’t talk about it and literally we won’t get better unless we do talk about it. So that’s one reason why I am having this conversation today, because this is not a completed story. This is a messy story. I’m in the middle of it. Mary DeMuth: I am heartbroken, and I don’t have all the answers. But I wanted to give word to those of you that may be in that same space, that may be hurting and don’t have words to say about it. And maybe I can articulate some of those things for you. Julie Roys: And I so appreciate that. I find that people often are willing to talk about experiences years after the fact, when they’ve worked it all out and they can tie it all up in a neat bow and we can all go, Oh, that’s so nice. And here’s three ways that you can apply this message. But I knew you were going through a really painful thing that it was messy. You’ve been tweeting about it, or I should say posting on X. Julie Roys: You’ve been very open and honest with your pain. And I really appreciate that. And I love the topic. You actually gave me the title for this, about navigating church bewilderment. And I love that word bewilderment because I feel like it really captures the confusion, the real disillusionment, and then the grief and the pain. Julie Roys: All of these things bound up in one. And so we’re going to get to all that and unpack all of that. But I think to understand the depth of it for you and for Patrick, first I have to understand how deeply vested you were in this church. So talk about what this church has meant to you over more than two decades and the roles that you played in it and the community that you had. Mary DeMuth: Yeah, we’ve been there for 23 years, and we immediately started serving the moment we landed there. And we also were the first non-IMB, it was an SBC church at the time, and we were the first non-IMB missionaries to be sent out from Lakepointe. Julie Roys: Define IMB for those who . Mary DeMuth: Yes. International mission board. So typically SBC churches send, they don’t really send their own missionaries. They sponsor IMB because all the money comes out of the SBC into this fund for the International Mission Board. We didn’t want to do that. We wanted to be actually supported because we believed that people who paid prayed. And so we were not IMB, but Lakepointe sent us out. So we were church planters in the South of France for a couple of years. And honestly the leadership there at our church, even though we weren’t going through our church, they were the ones that helped us through a really untenable situation. And our loyalty to that church was because they put us back together when we got back from the field.. Mary DeMuth: So much pouring in and so much love. And so we have been a life group leader for 20 of the 23 years. The only three years we weren’t was when we were in France, planting a church. And then I have run a couple of conferences, intere

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/ZOOhWWj5AqIAccording to the Houston Chronicle, hundreds have recently left Lakepointe Church—Josh Howerton’s prominent megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Now a longtime volunteer leader at Lakepointe, who recently left the church with her family, is speaking out. Joining host Julie Roys on this edition of The Roys Report is Amanda Cunningham, a former model and actress who became a Christian at Lakepointe Church under former Senior Pastor Steve Stroope. She also served as a leader in both the marriage ministry and women’s ministry, which boomed during her years there. But in 2019, Stroope retired, and young pastor Josh Howerton was hired to replace him. According to Amanda, that’s when a major transformation occurred. Ministries were canceled as the church sought to become more centralized and on-brand. Emails from Amanda to those in her ministry were canceled, and they were replaced by communications from central leadership. Soon, outsiders began posting about Howerton’s plagiarized sermons. His behavior online, and in sermons, led to allegations of misogyny. Then, Howerton told a joke that some said promoted marital rape. Howerton apologized for the joke, but as TRR reported, he apparently plagiarized his apology! Most recently, the church, in an effort to gain city approval for a traffic light, urged people in the church to sign up to drive repeatedly through an intersection to manipulate the findings of a traffic study. All these events, plus interactions Amanda witnessed personally, made her and her husband feel like they no longer could attend the church. Now, she’s speaking out to warn others. After 11 years doing life and ministry at Lakepointe, it wasn’t easy or simple for Amanda and her husband to exit. Her eye-opening account covers what led them to that point—plus insights on church celebrity culture, top-down leadership, and spiritual abuse that are widely applicable. Guests Amanda Cunningham Amanda Cunningham is a former model/actress who left her career behind when she became a mom. Subsequently, she spun into an identity crisis and was later stunned to find her true identity in Christ. Amanda is a writer, speaker, wife of a fire Deputy Chief, and mother of two girls. Connect with Amanda on Facebook. Show Transcript Julie Roys: According to the Houston Chronicle, hundreds have recently left Lakepointe Church, Josh Howerton’s prominent mega church in the Dallas Fort Worth area. One of those who have left, a longtime volunteer leader at the church, joins me today to tell her story. Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today I’ll be speaking with Amanda Cunningham, a former model and actress who became a Christian at Lakepointe Church. That was more than a decade ago when Steve Stroop pastored the church. But in 2019, Stroop retired, and young pastor Josh Howerton was hired to replace him. According to Amanda, that’s when a major transformation occurred. Julie Roys: Ministries were cancelled as the church sought to become more centralized and on brand. Emails from Amanda to those in her ministry were cancelled, and they were replaced by communications from central leadership. Then outsiders began posting about Howerton’s plagiarized sermons. His behavior online and in sermons led to allegations of misogyny. Julie Roys: And then Howerton told a joke that some online said promoted marital rape. Howerton apologized for the joke, but as The Roy’s Report reported, he apparently plagiarized his apology. Lastly, the church, in an effort to gain city approval for a traffic light, urged people in the church to sign up to repeatedly drive through an intersection to manipulate the findings. Julie Roys: All these events, plus interactions Amanda witnessed personally, caused her family to leave the church. And now, she’s speaking out to warn others. We’ll hear Amanda’s eye-opening account in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Julie Roys: Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Julie Roys: Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable. So join me in a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Julie Roys: Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and confidence. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM Julie Roys:  Again, joining me is Amanda Cunningham, a former model and actress who about 11 years ago became a Christian at a church in the Dallas Fort Worth area called Lakepointe. But over the years, it’s changed dramatically under its new leader, Josh Howerton. So Amanda joins me now to talk about, sort of from an insider’s view, what’s been happening at that church and also her family’s painful decision to decide to leave that church. So Amanda, thank you so much for joining me and being willing to talk about something that I know has been really difficult for you. Amanda Cunningham: Thank you for the opportunity to work it out with other people who will listen and Christians who understand a heart for wanting a reconciled, peaceful, loving church to be a great witness to the world. So thank you so much for having me. Julie Roys: And I know your story is unique to you. And yet at the same time, there are a lot of people listening who have had to leave their church for one reason or another. And they know what that process is like. There’s some who I’m guessing are listening right now and trying to figure out, is the stuff that I’m seeing at my church, is it serious enough to leave? Is it not? And so I think this is going to be a really beneficial podcast for a lot of folks. Julie Roys: But before we talk about that, let’s talk about sort of your background and why you even came to this church. My understanding is 11 years ago, you weren’t a believer, and you really weren’t looking to go to church. Why did you end up showing up at Lakepointe? Amanda Cunningham: It’s a very long story, but what ended up happening, I had visited church when I was younger. It never really stuck. I didn’t fall in love with the Lord. I didn’t understand it. And when I became a mom, just seeing the miracle of life through my daughter’s birth. And as they grew, I thought there’s something to this God. And we ended up moving to a new town when they were one in three. My husband’s a firefighter and a lot of his firefighter friends invited us to Lakepointe. Amanda Cunningham: And immediately I thought I don’t want to go to a mega church, televangelist; I had all these outside opinions. And it took me a little while to even wrap my mind around visiting a church like that, and I really started to feel convicted with this thought before I even knew what that meant, that if my husband wants to try a church, I should try whatever church it is. Amanda Cunningham: So we started going. And I am his third wife. He’s my second husband. We were obviously terrible at marriage because we didn’t know God’s design for it. We weren’t living by it. But as soon as we started attending, we were completely consumers, grateful to have child-care, grateful for the coffee and the music and the movie seats. Amanda Cunningham: We were soaking it all up. But they started preaching a marriage series on fixing your marriage. And my husband and I kind of looked at each other I think God’s talking to us? Is that a thing? And the reason why they were doing a marriage series was to launch a marriage ministry. Amanda Cunningham: So my husband and I just felt seeing okay, we really do need to figure out how to make our marriage better. We were in a really tough place and ended up attending the marriage ministry that Lakepointe launched called Re-Engage. Amanda Cunningham: And it was founded by Watermark, and he didn’t want to go .He ended up going and week four, we have this huge forgiveness lesson. And I realized how much I needed forgiveness for. just all my sin. And I really just gave it up to the Lord. I had no idea what I was doing. I just started telling people what happened in this conversation that my husband said he believed again. And that I said, just God, take my whole life. I’m making a mess of it. People were like, Oh, you gave your life to Christ? What does that mean? Okay. I’m just learning all this language and I had heard you need to get baptized right away. So I got baptized. Amanda Cunningham: And as I come out of the baptistry, our church is obviously very large. And so the baptisms are put on the big screen. And so I was baptized during service, and I come out of the baptistry and all my friends who I made in Re-Engage were like, why didn’t

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/fFImYJWb2XU Nancy French was once a darling of the GOP—and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump’s candidacy for president—something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy says she could not support. Then, she was ghosted. In this edition of The Roys Report, Nancy French, a New York Times bestselling author and Christian conservative, recounts how she’s been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why, as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn’t support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had. And she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. Nancy French and her husband have been at the center of the major upheaval our nation has faced—as a new political paradigm invaded the church pews. As an abuse survivor and woman of conviction, Nancy courageously shares her story that has insights for every listener. Guests Nancy French Nancy French has collaborated on multiple books for celebrities - five of which made the New York Times best seller list. She has conducted a multi-year journalistic investigation, written commentary, and published for the nation’s most prominent newspapers and magazines. She has written several books under her own name and tells her own story in Ghosted: An American Story. She lives in Franklin, Tennessee with her husband – journalist David French – and family. Learn more at NancyFrench.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, NANCY FRENCH Julie Roys  00:04 Nancy French was once a darling of the GOP and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump’s candidacy for president; something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy couldn’t support. Then she was ghosted. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Nancy French, a New York Times best-selling author, a Christian and a conservative who’s been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn’t support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had, and she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. Nancy writes about all of this in her book Ghosted, which we’re offering this month to anyone who gives a gift of $50 or more to The Roys Report. And if you’d like to do that, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells us about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. I’m so excited to share both the book and this podcast with you. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture. But more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by his word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well focusing on the right use of power in our churches, so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of character. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again joining me is New York Times best-selling author Nancy French. As a ghostwriter, she’s written for a variety of people, from well-known politicians to celebrities. She’s also investigated and exposed widespread sexual and spiritual abuse at Kanakuk camp, America’s largest Christian camp, and her latest book Ghosted, tells her remarkable story of growing up in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, marrying David French, a New York Times opinion columnist, becoming a ghostwriter for conservative political leaders. And then when she and her husband opposed Trump, getting kicked out by their own tribe and then becoming the target of white nationalists and Trump supporters. So Nancy, welcome, and it’s just such a privilege to have you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:08 Thanks for having me on. This is fun.   Julie Roys  04:11 And I know that this is not the best time for you to be doing a book tour. You’ve been very public about your struggle with cancer. And I know you’re going through chemo. And I just feel honored that you’d be willing to take the time in the middle of something like that to talk about this. So thank you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:27 Yeah, no, thank you so much. Yes, I think I’ve done pretty well with all the interviews, even though I’m high as a kite on prednisone. And I haven’t said too many things that I maybe regretted later. But I’m very thankful to be able to have a book out. It just so happens, it’s in the middle of chemo. So this is gonna get real.   Julie Roys  04:45 Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I was surprised when I read your book. I mean, you and David are kind of like this powerhouse couple. And yet, you had very humble beginnings. In fact, your grandparents lived in the mountains of Appalachia; you lived in the foothills because your parents moved. But again, they were interesting sort of rough and tumble group of people. In fact, your dad used to joke that your family was famous or maybe infamous is a better word. Tell us a little bit about that and the background of your family.   NANCY FRENCH  05:19 Yeah, we get accused a lot of being like Washington, DC cocktail party elites or whatever. I don’t even go to Washington DC. I am from Tennessee. My parents are from Montego mountain. My grandfather was a coal miner. My dad did not graduate from high school. He got his GED. And he later in his 50s went back to college. But  he went to college, he got a degree and amazing man. But yeah, from self-described hillbillies, and all that entails. And yeah, I wanted to sort of describe my upbringing, just so that people could understand that many times people will say, Well, you just don’t understand what true Americans think or you don’t understand what true Tennesseans think. And I always sort of in my mind laugh at that because I’m like, you can’t out Tennessee me. You can be an American and a real Tennessean and hold the beliefs that I hold, you know, so that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to describe that upbringing. I love my family. They’re amazing. They’re fierce. And I think some of that ferocity has been passed on to me and I just I love my hillbilly family.   Julie Roys  06:32 And your part Cherokee Indian too?   NANCY FRENCH  06:35 Yeah, we have a lot of Indian blood. So my grandmother was I think was 1/4. And that was Cherokee. And then my grandfather also had a different type of Montana Indian in him, which is interesting. But yeah, it was all mixed together.   Julie Roys  06:52 So your dad broke from your family, moved to the foothills. Mayfield, Kentucky, which I know where that’s at. My dad actually lives near there now. But Mayfield, Kentucky, then eventually to Tennessee. Talk about the culture of the home that you grew up in, but also the town and sort of rural Tennessee and what that was like.   NANCY FRENCH  07:16 So Paris, Tennessee, has a 16-foot-tall Eiffel Tower,   Julie Roys  07:22 An Eiffel Tower.   NANCY FRENCH  07:25 There’s a huge battle between Paris, Texas and Paris, Tennessee over this Eiffel Tower business. But Paris, Tennessee is an amazing place. I grew up near the lake, Kentucky lake. We have a 60-foot Eiffel Tower. It’s just a great place to grow up very rural. We did not necessarily value education in the way that you would think a school might. For example, in seventh grade, I did not have science class, but instead they decided because none of us were going to go to college, to teach us about guns and so we had hunter safety classes and that culminated in skeet shooting contest. Which, I don’t like to brag, I don’t like to but sometimes you got to. I was the best shot in my seventh-grade class. Which is interesting and funny, but that’s how I grew up; just complete redneck hillbilly sort of existence and I loved it. Like I love Paris, Tennessee. I love Mont

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/ok7qRXGZYro For nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn’t back down. And on this edition of The Roys Report, you’ll hear her story. Joining host Julie Roys is Christa Brown, an abuse survivor who overcame the odds in pursuit of justice. As a 16-year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her never to speak of it. For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belonged to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence—and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing. But instead, they attacked her. That began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention—and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. She recounts it all in detail in her just released memoir, Baptistland. Christa found her voice, rising above her past trauma to become a leading voice in the national and global abuse survivor community. She speaks with unrelenting honesty about the patterns of abuse in evangelical churches—and the necessary steps to bring reform. Guests Christa Brown Named as one of the "top 10 religion newsmakers" of 2022, Christa Brown has persisted for two decades in working to peel back the truth about clergy sex abuse and coverups in the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention. As one of the first to go public with substantiated child molestation allegations against a Baptist minister—and documentation that others knew—she has consistently demanded reforms to make other kids and congregants safer. She is the author of Baptistland and This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and His Gang. Christa, who is retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma, lives with her husband in Colorado. Show Transcript SPEAKERS CHRISTA BROWN, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04 For nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn’t back down and on this podcast, you’ll hear her story. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Christa Brown, someone who’s become a sort of legend in the abuse survivor community. As a 16- year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her to never speak of it. For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belongs to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing, but instead, they attacked her. And that began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. Joining me is Christa Brown, someone who for decades fought to expose sex abuse and cover up within the Southern Baptist Convention. She has been dubbed the mother of all abuse bloggers, and also is named by the Religion News Association as one of the top 10 religion newsmakers of 2022. She’s also a retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma. So Christa, welcome. It is such a privilege to have you on this podcast.   CHRISTA BROWN  03:22 Thank you, Julie, I really appreciate it. I’m so glad to be with you.   Julie Roys  03:26 And you’re kind of like a legend. I don’t know if you recognize this, but you have been at this a very, very long time and the persistence that you have had to expose what’s been going on within the Southern Baptist Convention, it didn’t just happen to you, it happened to so so many women and men who have been victims. And so just as somebody who’s been in this space for a really long time, not nearly as long as you, I just really appreciate your work. So thank you.   CHRISTA BROWN  04:16 Thanks. And of course, this is something that is still continuing to happen too.   Julie Roys  04:21 That’s true. So I just finished your book, Baptistland, and really emotionally, still wrestling to come to terms  with everything I read. I think there were several things that really struck me from your book. Of course, the horror of the sex abuse that you had at the hands of your own youth pastor, somebody that you trusted, and the spiritual abuse involved in that was just absolutely horrific. But I think too, the abuse within your own family and the psychological and emotional abuse that was there and kind of how that conditioned you for the abuse and to kind of keep secrets. And so it kind of contributed to everything that happened. But I think lastly, was your resiliency, which is amazing in the face of what you encountered, your resiliency. And I don’t know how you did that. I mean, what do you attribute the resiliency that you’ve had to overcome so many hurdles in your life?   CHRISTA BROWN  05:26 I don’t know. In part, I think I’m a little stubborn by nature. I think that is there. In part, I think I had the enormous good fortune to encounter a wonderful husband and wonderful spouse, who has been nothing but supportive. And I think, when someone has that kind of support in their life, I mean, that came, of course, later as an adult, but that too, of course, has just been an enormous source of stability for me. So yeah, I’ve had those things. And in that sense, I’ve been very, very fortunate.   Julie Roys  06:10 If someone has just even one person in their life that’s advocating for them, that’s behind them, it makes a huge difference. And I know my spouse has been with me 100% in the work I’ve done as well. And I credit him for a lot of what I’ve been able to do as well. So I can relate to that.   CHRISTA BROWN  06:28 Yeah. I mean, he’s a behind-the-scenes kind of guy. No one knows my husband, but he is very much there for me.   Julie Roys  06:38  You divide your memoir into four different deaths, as you call them. And of course, there’s an element of resurrection and all of that, too. But your deaths start, the very first death that you write about is the abuse that you suffered by, again, your own youth pastor. But as I mentioned, there was some dysfunction in your own home, that kind of conditioned you to be able to have this abuse, and maybe to keep it quiet. Would you talk a little bit about that, the home situation that conditioned you to stay quiet about the abuse?   CHRISTA BROWN  07:19 Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the sort of home that it’s like, we all pretend we’re happy. What happened didn’t happen. And when someone blows up and throws plates across the wall, we clean it up, and we act like nothing ever happened. When my father explodes, we all just go on. My father had serious PTSD problems, but back then, we would not have even had that acronym PTSD, we didn’t know what to call it. We just all, as with many families across America, when war veterans come home, we all just do the best we can. But that very dynamic of never talking about it, and just always putting you in the background and moving on, conditioned me to keep quiet and to not talk about things in the family. We did not talk about the family with outsiders. That was for sure. And so all of that, I think is part of what conditioned me. Then when I was abused by the pastor, why would I talk about it? I had no experience in talking about anything troubling in my life, None. What was normal was never to talk about things. And I hope people will see that because of course, that’s one of the very common questions that people often ask, Well, why didn’t you tell someone sooner? Why didn’t you talk about it? I hope people will see in my book, the only rational question is, why would she have ever talked about it? And then, of course, the fact that I did try with a couple people and that only made things worse.   Julie Roys  09:08 Yeah. And there was also this element of spiritual abuse, which honestly, when I was reading your book, and I’ve heard a lot of spiritual abuse, but I would say this was almost just so wicked, because in your case, you were so trusting, you had such a childlike faith in God. And he just completely exploited that. Would you talk about the spiritual abuse and how that how that really gave him power over you?   CHRISTA BROWN  09:40 Oh, it gave him enormous power. And I hope people will see that the enormous power that earnest that a person’s faith can hold when it is weaponized against them, because that is what gave him power. I mean, I think there are many people who would wish to believe that this happens to kids who are in some way, oh, morally lacks or they want to blame the kid for some reason, that the reality is what made me vulnerable? What made me a target? What made me easy prey? was the very fact that I love God so much. My faith was earnest and pure and that is precisely what was weaponized against me literally. I was raised from toddlerhood to believe that you trust these men who carry the voice of God, that they are men and God. In the framework I held in my mind at that time., there was no other possibility other than to obey.   Julie Roys  11:00 You know, it’s interesting, because I just had a conversation with my daughter this morning. And I feel kind of bad sometimes because of the work that I’m in, that they’re exposed to the evil of it. But at the same time, I realized this morning, as we were talking about some things, she knows to be skeptical, that trust

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tbf5FsOm0o Research shows more than 95% of women who report being raped are telling the truth. But in some churches, these women are not believed and shamed. According to author Ryan George, it’s all part of a propaganda machine meant to consolidate and maintain power. On this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys continues her eye-opening dialogue with Ryan George, the son of an Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) pastor. In part one, Ryan described the physical abuse he suffered from his dad. Now Ryan exposes the harmful rhetoric in IFB churches from his insider perspective and comments on shocking examples of IFB misogyny. This podcast includes clips from IFB pastors who shamed women and rape victims in their sermons. Also included in this podcast is Ryan’s description of how IFB pastors promote violence, especially when it’s directed towards those seen as political foes. This is a no-holds-barred podcast, exposing the ugly truth about the IFB church movement, which Ryan asserts is a cult. It also includes a clip from John MacArthur in which the famous preacher sounds an awful lot like Ryan’s IFB pastor dad. However, this podcast also has a wonderfully redemptive story, as Ryan tells how he escaped the abuse and deception in his father’s IFB church and overcame fear. Guests Ryan George Ryan George is the author of Scared to Life, Word on the Street, and his latest book, Hurt and Healed by the Church. He’s the blogger behind Explorience.org, where he tells stories at the intersection of physical adventures and spiritual discoveries on all seven continents. He co-founded and co-leads Dude Group, a parachurch outdoor Bible study and prayer group in the Blue Ridge Mountains where he lives with his wife, Crystal, and daughter, Deonnie. Show Transcript SPEAKERS PASTOR BOBBY LEONARD, JOHN MACARTHUR, RYAN GEORGE, Julie Roys, JACK HYLES Julie Roys  00:00 The following podcast contains clips from some pastors in the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, or IFB, who shamed women and rape victims in their sermons. We chose these clips to illustrate the systemic problems in IFB churches. But we realize these clips are hard to hear, so please take care as you listen.  For more background on these and other stories please visit JulieRoys.com. Research shows that more than 95-percent of women who report being raped are telling the truth. But in some churches, especially IFB churches, these women are disbelieved and shamed. According to Ryan George, it’s all part of the IFB propaganda machine meant to consolidate and maintain power. Welcome to The Roys Report—a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And in part two of an eye-opening podcast with Ryan George—the son of an IFB pastor—Ryan exposes the misogynist propaganda in IFB churches. And in this podcast, you’ll hear some shocking examples of this misogyny. But as Ryan explains, there’s also promotion of violence within IFB churches, especially when it’s directed towards those seen as political foes. This is no-holds-barred, stunning podcast, exposing the ugly truth about the IFB Church—a group Ryan confidently asserts is a cult. You’ll also hear a clip from John MacArthur, where the famous preacher sounds an awful lot like an IFB pastor. But this podcast also has a wonderfully redemptive story, as Ryan tells how he escaped the IFB and overcame fear. I love Ryan’s story—and I think you will too. We’ll get to that in a minute. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast—Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington . . . Well again, here’s part 2 of my podcast with Ryan George, author of Hurt and Healed in the Church. . . So there’s a whole section of your book that deals with propaganda. And you know, as a journalist, as somebody who’s in media, I mean, that’s something that always sort of piques my curiosity when I see something like that, but it’s really this idea of how the IFB was able to sell certain ideas to you. And extra biblical ideas that really weren’t necessarily in Scripture. And one of them that was just so heartbreaking to me because I work with female victims all the time of sexual abuse, and was that this idea, you actually heard this in college? Just stunning to me, that a woman if she’s raped, she would only get pregnant if she’s somehow enjoying it. And so it was kind of her fault if she gets pregnant. I mean, just despicable. absolutely shocking that anyone would say that. Yeah, just absolutely despicable. And, you know, I’m very pro-life in my convictions, but the thought that somebody would try to treat a rape victim who got pregnant that way is just heartbreaking, heartbreaking. But we know, these really misogynist ideas are woven into so many of these fundamentalist churches. And you mentioned in your book, that Jack Hyles, who if you don’t know Jack Hyles was really a main figure within the IFB movement. He had this church in Hammond, Indiana, First Baptist of Hammond, I think, huge mega church. I think at one point, they said they had like 40,000 people coming. I know he would bus people. RYAN GEORGE  01:42 He had 86 buses at the peak of their ministry, running a bus route. I mean, that’s a big metro area city bus ministry. Julie Roys  01:49 Yeah, Absolutely, absolutely huge. Anyway, you had this clip, and it was so awful, I like had to look it up in your footnotes and be like, is this online? And so the journalist in me, like has to find it, right. So actually I was able to do it, I was able to find this clip. And just so people realize, I also looked up, like what was the context? Because he says, who slew all of these? when he’s speaking and really what he’s talking about, I looked up that phrase, it’s actually from II Kings 10, and it refers to Jehu, who is basically meeting out God’s judgment to the wicked king Ahab, and also Jezabell two of the most wicked kings Israel ever had. And there are actually, you know, these men of the city, who slew who slay the 70 sons of Ahab. And it’s a pretty graphic description in the Old Testament where they actually bring the heads of all of these sons, and they put them at the gate. And it’s like the judgment of God being meted out in just, you know, a horrific way. But then again, what Jezebel and Ahab did during their reign was pretty horrific as well. But Jehu comes and he looks, you know, in front of the people, he’s looking at this this pile, and he says, who slew all of these? And so in this clip, Hyles is actually likening these wicked men who were beheaded, to the people he’s describing, and it’s absolutely breathtaking, because these people are women, who, God forbid, didn’t dress in the way that he thinks is appropriate. So take a listen. JACK HYLES  03:47 Who slew all of the women in shorts? Who slew all of these poor kids that are girls pregnant before they married? caused the boys to get so stirred up passionately that they rape a girl. Brother, you listen to me. For every single man that goes to prison for rape, you ought to be right beside him, a half-naked girl in the next cell. Who slew all these people on beaches? Who slew all these churches to have mixed swimming parties? Julie Roys  04:31 Unbelievable. RYAN GEORGE  04:32 And if you notice in the background of any video, or background of that video, it’s all women except for one guy and they’re smiling. Julie Roys  04:41 Some are some are not. I mean, some are smiling. Some are not. And I just know you know from reading your book, and from the research that I’ve done, I mean, there’s a lot of sexual abuse going on behind the scenes. I just have to wonder how many of these women are standing there hearing this, and they’ve been sexually abused, and now they’re hearing, it’s your fault that this happened to you. Which, interestingly, Jack Hyles’ son, David, he’s been accused by several women of raping them. In fact, I did a podcast about four years ago with a woman who claimed she was raped by Jack Hyles son David Hyles. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes. That’s I mean, if you want to explore this a little bit more that was a really powerful podcast. Amazing woman what she’s been through., RYAN GEORGE  05:36 Oh, yes. Julie Roys  05:38 But also, there’s the son-in-law of Jack Hyles, who, you know, he’s been convicted of taking what a 16-year-old across state lines and raping her. Interestingly, when he was caught in his crime, he did eventually admit, I guess that  he had raped her. But then he blamed it on the teen’s aggressiveness, on her aggressiveness. I mean, this is so just baked into the whip and woof of this culture, that it’s the woman’s fault. And you might think, well, you know, Jack Hyles, died in 2001. So this is like the IFB of many decades ago. And, unfortunately, it’s not. In fact, I found a clip, and this was just like, last month on the internet, and it was a recording that it had been from, I think, August of last year, last September, but it finally made its round. Yeah. On the internet. And it was of a pastor in North Carolina, Pastor Bobby Leonard, at this Bible Baptist Tabernacle in Monroe, North Carolina. And this, I mean, every bit as awful as what you just heard from Jack Hyles. Let me play this because, again, this happened within the past year. PASTOR BOBBY LEONARD  07:01 I used to say this. I haven’t said this a long time. You ready? I said, if you dress like that, and you get raped, and I’m on the jury, he’s will go free. You don’t like it, do you? I’m right though. I’m right. Because a man’s a man. Julie Roys  07:22 Hhmm. A man’s a man. RYAN GEORGE  07:25 We define manhood very differently. Julie Roys  07:27 Yeah, right. I mean, that was unbelievable. And I pointed out and I think I put a Tweet out there saying or a post on X, I guess I have to say, that, yeah, he’s a man. He’s not an animal. And one of the features of a man is he’s able to exercise self-control.

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JS6dZodsfA The church should be a place of healing and comfort. But for far too many, it’s a place of abuse and harm. As a child, Ryan George was profoundly hurt in a fundamentalist church, pastored by his abusive father. But years later, Ryan found a loving and gracious church. And through that church, he experienced transformation and healing. In this edition of The Roys Report, Ryan George, author of Hurt and Healed by the Church, exposes both the worst and the best that the church can be. He vulnerably shares how his father preached love and forgiveness yet told Ryan he was going to hell and beat Ryan for the smallest transgressions. Then, years later, Ryan discovered a horrible secret—that his father had also sexually molested girls. These left deep wounds in Ryan, and it profoundly distorted his view of God and the church. But then Ryan took a chance and he decided to break from his fundamentalist background. He began attending a church that was nothing like the churches he knew before. Ryan shares what he had to release—and hold on to—in this dramatic opening of our two-part podcast.  Ryan’s story is deeply moving. And his honesty about what he’s faced and learned along the way provides insights for anyone who’s been hurt by the church and is seeking healing. Guests Ryan George Ryan George is the author of Scared to Life, Word on the Street, and his latest book, Hurt and Healed by the Church. He’s the blogger behind Explorience.org, where he tells stories at the intersection of physical adventures and spiritual discoveries on all seven continents. He co-founded and co-leads Dude Group, a parachurch outdoor Bible study and prayer group in the Blue Ridge Mountains where he lives with his wife, Crystal, and daughter, Deonnie. Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBdqZj2_gHA Can a church that’s had a history of being toxic transform its culture and become truly healthy? Or, are churches like this doomed to repeat their history, despite efforts to change? This edition of The Roys Report features a talk from our recent Restore Conference by Laura Barringer. Laura and her father, theologian Scot McKnight, co-authored two best-selling books on identifying toxic church cultures and reforming them. Their first book, A Church Called Tov, identifies how many church cultures are failing in their mission to glorify God and be truly “tov”—the Hebrew word for good—and instead are harming people. Laura and Scot’s second book, titled Pivot, deals with transformation. Can church structures, policies, and even relationships that were once oppressive turn into something tov, or good? This was the topic of Laura’s talk at Restore in which she shared details and compelling stories of churches who have successfully made this change. Doing so is not easy, Laura says, but it’s worth it. With more and more churches and ministries being exposed as abusive or corrupt, this topic is extremely relevant. Sometimes, after a bad leader is removed, churches want to change but don’t know how. This talk helps chart the way. Guests Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children’s version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher’s guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles.  Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/uaYHJrgdwhAWhat does it take to disqualify someone from ministry? An affair? Spiritual abuse? Sexual abuse? Abuse of power? Or, as some have claimed, can just about anyone be restored to ministry because “God is gracious” and “His call is irrevocable”? This edition of The Roys Report takes a deep dive into the Scriptures—particularly, those specific verses used to justify restoring pastors to ministry who have fallen in egregious ways. Author and Bible teacher Ron Cantor joins host Julie Roys for this engaging discussion. Partly because of confusion around the “irrevocable” call to ministry, the evangelical church is often like a game of “whack-a-wolf.” A pastor will be exposed as a fraud or abuser in one location. Then he’ll just go underground for a couple of years and relaunch somewhere else. That’s why it’s critical to address common errors of theology and interpretation—including how to confront a sinning leader. In what situations do the principles of Matthew 18 apply, and how is it often misapplied? And what does the Apostle Paul mean by “being above reproach”? This is such a relevant discussion now, given what’s happening with Mike Bickle, the founder of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. (Full coverage here.) Bickle’s alleged sexual abuse of multiple women includes accounts from girls as young as 14- and 15-years old. Yet some are suggesting that Bickle can still be restored. Is that really what the Bible instructs? Ron Cantor, a Jewish believer in Jesus who has authored ten books, engages the arguments heard often in evangelical circles—citing Scripture and context as he provides food for thought. Guests Ron Cantor Ron Cantor, a Jewish believer in Jesus, is the Israeli director of God TV. He is the author of ten books and host of two TV shows, Out of Zion and Get Real. He is president of Shelanu TV, the only 24/7, Hebrew language TV channel sharing the message of Jesus. Ron and his wife, Elena, also direct the outreach arm of Shelanu, Messiah's Mandate International, which supports pastors in Israel, Holocaust survivors, and leaders in training. The Cantors live in Tel Aviv, Israel. Learn more at RonCantor.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSKRIS VALLOTTON, RICK JOYNER, Julie Roys, STEPHEN STRANG, RON CANTOR Julie Roys  00:04 What does it take to disqualify someone from ministry? An affair, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, abuse of power, or as some have claimed, can just about anyone be restored to ministry because God is gracious, and his call is irrevocable? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today we’re going to take a deep dive into the scriptures used to justify restoring pastors to ministry who have fallen in some of the most egregious ways. We’re also going to take a look at how to confront a sinning elder. Does Matthew 18, which tells believers to first go to someone one-on-one with an offense apply to these situations? Or is this a misapplication of the passage? We’ll also look at the qualifications of an elder and we’ll explore, for example, what does it mean to be above reproach? Joining me for this discussion is Ron Cantor, an author and teacher and president of Shelanu TV. This is such a relevant discussion now given what’s happening with Mike Bickle, the founder of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. Despite Bickle’s alleged sexual abuse of multiple women, including some as young as 14 and 15 years old. Some are suggesting that Bickle can still be restored to ministry. What do you think? But it’s not just Mike Bickle. I’ve often said it’s like whack-a-wolf in the evangelical community. A pastor will be exposed as a fraud or abuser in one location, and then he’ll just go underground for a couple of years and then relaunch somewhere else. Is that really God’s will? And is that really what the Bible instructs? I can’t wait to dive into these topics with Ron. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again, joining me is Ron Cantor, a Jewish believer in Jesus and the host of two TV programs, Out of Zion and Get Real. He’s also the author of 10 books. And he’s the president of Shelanu TV,  the only 24/7 Hebrew language TV channel, sharing the message of Jesus. So Ron, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you.   RON CANTOR  03:08 Thank you, Julie. It’s great to be here.   Julie Roys  03:11 And I am so excited to be recording this podcast because I’m getting really frustrated, to be honest, with hearing a lot of people twist scriptures to say something that I don’t think they say at all. And I’m excited to get into that. And I’m really grateful for you because you’ve been very outspoken on social media. This is my introduction to you is on Twitter. Oh, I’m sorry, X now. But I’ve really appreciated that. So thank you for speaking so boldly.   RON CANTOR  03:38 Well, and thank you because you know, something I’ve said for a long time is that, when we as elders in the body don’t do our job, the Lord will use the media to expose things. And I believe that God has used you to push some things to the forefront. So bless you.   Julie Roys  03:55 Oh, well, thanks for saying that. And we usually are the last resort. We are the ones they come to after they’ve exhausted the elders in their church and all of the leaders that a victim or a whistleblower can go to. And sadly, you’re right, they often must come to us. And so that’s why we’re here. I would love I’ve said this before, I would love to be completely unnecessary in the body of Christ and for things to be handled in the church. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon. But my prayer is that that will change as we begin doing more things like we’re doing today. So we will see. You’ve served in context like all around the world, like in Rockville, Maryland, which I know where that is. My sister lives in Maryland. I used to live in Pennsylvania. So you lead a messianic congregation there. You’ve been in the Ukraine. You’ve been a pastor of a congregation there in Jerusalem, and now you’re serving with God TV and Shelanu and doing you know, just amazing ministry. But when it comes to this topic of pastors who are in persistent sin or you know, significant fall, it’s been my experience that we don’t deal with this very well within the church. But I’m curious, in your experience, you know, over several decades of ministry, how have you seen the church respond? And has it been as awful as a lot of my reporting shows it is doing? Or have you seen some really, really positive examples of dealing with it?   RON CANTOR  05:26 Well, I’ll start with the negative and I’ll go to the positive, I think in the larger charismatic world, before I was even born, the charismatic movement started in the 60s. And, you know, we were, or they were, I should say, I wasn’t alive, they were kicked out or not received in the mainline denominational world where there were structures of accountability. Where, you know, you had superintendents, and you didn’t have one pastor with all of the power. So that kind of push the charismatic world out. You know, I don’t know if it’s the majority, but certainly a large number of charismatic churches are completely independent. And often they have one leader, what I’ll call the royal pastor model. He’s a charismatic figure, probably a very good communicator, good Bible teacher. And, you know, often the elders who surround him are Yes-men or Yes-women. And they don’t really have that level of accountability. And not just that, they build up such an aura around their personality and their calling, that when they do fall into moral failure, well, God forbid that I stop preaching, because think of the people that we won’t reach. Of course, my response is, yes, that’s what you should have thought of before you fell into it to adultery. You know, Samson should have thought about that before he got his eyes poked out. There is, we’ll get into later. But there is something called being disqualified. Now, I am very fortunate that when I graduated Bible school, I moved to Rockville, Maryland, I joined a congregation there called Beth Messiah. And they were in the beginnings of forming a network of Messianic Jewish leaders that believe in what we call covenant relationships. So I’m part of a network of if I include America, 40 congregations, and some of the men in that network are my closest friends. And they hold me accountable. And we’ve had a very low number of moral failures. And we have ways of dealing with it if it does happen. I don’t know where I would be, if I was brought up in a different model, where it was accepted, where divorce was accepted, where you just kind of moved on, you know, you got a little bit of counseling, and continued as pastoring. Where you could decide to divorce your wife, marry som

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjJP8vDgoBAA bombshell report on the alleged “affair” between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards published by The Roys Report sent shock waves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people, who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were they both consensual partners? Or, was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? To consider such questions, Baylor University professor Dr. David Pooler, an expert on adult clergy sexual abuse, joins Julie Roys for this challenging but crucial discussion. They examine the difficult story of these two worship leaders in light of this often-misunderstood issue. Adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA) is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened here? Misty claims she’s not a victim. And Kevin was not in a formal role of authority over Misty. But he was more than 20 years older than her. Past articles reveal Misty admired Kevin’s songs and his intimate style of leading worship. And Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. Also, in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of “adulterous” relationships, describing his advances with women in ways that sound abusive. He wrote, “I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women, not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure.” Regarding Misty, she has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer Kansas City, or IHOPKC. Follow the shocking revelations concerning IHOPKC founder Mike Bickle and the ministry’s response at this link. Many questions surround what happened with Misty and Kevin. Drawing from his extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, Dr. Pooler gives insight into these complex issues. Julie also addresses criticisms of her reporting, explaining the struggle of how to report this story, the ethics of journalism, and how this report helps shed light on the larger narrative. Guests Dr. David Pooler Dr. David Pooler is Professor and Director of the Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse; Advocacy and Research Collaborative at Baylor University in the Diana R. Garland School of Social Work. As a national expert on Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse, he brings insights about this phenomenon through research and his clinical practice with survivors. Dr. Pooler has a B.A. in psychology and religion from Lee University and earned the MSW and Ph.D in Social Work at the University of Louisville. He is married to Cheryl, who is also a faculty member in the School of Social Work at Baylor, and they have two adult daughters.  Show Transcript SPEAKERSDAVID POOLER, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:03Our bombshell report on the alleged affair between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards sent shockwaves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were both of them consensual partners? Or was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today we’re going to discuss not just our report on Kevin and Misty, but the often-misunderstood issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. This is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened with Kevin and Misty? Kevin was not in any formal role of authority over Misty, but he was more than 20 years older than her. And we know from published articles that Misty admired Kevin’s songs and his intimate style of leading worship. Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. As I reported in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of adulterous relationships. Yet when you hear the way he described those relationships, they sound abusive. Prosch writes, and I quote, I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure. The very gift God gave me to bless others with, I used to manipulate and seduce these women. We also know that Misty has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer or IHOP in Kansas City. And if you haven’t been following the shocking revelations concerning IHOP founder Mike Bickle, I encourage you to go to the investigations tab at my website, JULIEROYS.COM. And there we have all of our stories on IHOP easily accessible.   Julie Roys  02:10 Well, again, there are a lot of questions surrounding what happened with Misty and Kevin, our reporting on Misty and Kevin, and this whole issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. And joining me for this discussion is a well-known expert on the topic, Dr. David Pooler. Dr. Pooler is a professor at Baylor University who’s done extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, and I’m so looking forward to speaking further with him about this topic.   Julie Roys  02:36 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  03:39 Well again, joining me is Dr. David Pooler, a professor at the Diana R Garland School of Social Work at Baylor University. Dr. Pooler has more than 15 years of social work practice experience and has done extensive work among at risk and abused children. But most pertinent to our discussion today is the research he’s done on adult clergy sexual abuse and his desire to develop healthy church congregations. So Dr. Pooler, welcome, and thanks so much for joining me.   DAVID POOLER 04:09 I am super glad to be here. It’s a real privilege and an honor that I get to talk about something that really matters.   Julie Roys  04:15 Now it does matter, and I just so appreciate your interest in abuse, but also in the way that I first met you at the RESTORE Conference, which to me, I was just kind of blown away when I saw you had signed up for it. I’m like, Oh, my goodness, Dr. Pooler is coming and, and he should be teaching, I should be like sitting under him. And yet you came just to learn and observe, and I just appreciate that.   DAVID POOLER 04:38 I did. I wanted to be around people that it’s almost like the folks that show up that RESTORE  are sort of my people if that makes sense. It’s sort of a hodgepodge of people who have been injured and wounded and are still finding their way and wanting things to be better and on some level looking for church reform, right and in ways that we often aren’t thinking about reform. And so I do think that this whole topic of adult clergy sexual abuse kind of sits in this strange place of the church just does not know what to do with. But yet there’s a lot of room for hope and healing and change to occur. That’s what I’m devoting my life to do.   Julie Roys  05:24 Well, I appreciate that. After we published this article on Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards on what I had termed in the article an affair, and I know that’s a very questionable word, given the context of everything, but you reached out to me, just with some concerns, some questions, and just in such a gracious manner, and we were able to have a zoom call about that. And as we’re having this call, I’m thinking, this is such a profitable conversation, I want to make this public. And so I invited you to do this podcast with me. I think this is going to be outstanding, and I appreciate just your demeanor in coming to me about that. But let me just, instead of me trying to paraphrase you, what were some of the concerns that you had with the article and with even how things were presented?   DAVID POOLER 06:12 Sure. When I read it, just in my study of adult clergy sexual abuse, I could immediately tell there was so much more than could be reported on there. These abusive systems and when I say abuse of systems where we have sort of a patriarchal leader, sort of men are elevated, and we have an issue around clericalism, where it’s elevating the priorities and needs of certain leaders to the exclusion of others. Anyway, but when I read the term affair and I’m like, for there to actually be an affair, there would have to be consent, people would have to be on equal power levels. And I’m like, I wonder if that’s really the case here. So I had issues with the term affair, because one of the things that’s really interesting is that there are 14 states that actually criminalize, have state statutes, where a pastoral leader if they abuse an adult under their care, they can be charged with a

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/3TQsIWujVnI Once you’ve experienced trauma, how do you heal? What should you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey? In this edition of The Roys Report, discover answers to these questions and more in an in-depth talk from professional psychologist, Dr. Phil Monroe. It comes from his recent (and second) appearance at the Restore Conference. And you’ll hear the wisdom and gentle demeanor that have made him a favorite among attendees. All too often, people who are traumatized don’t know how to find the help they need. They may end up in the care of someone who wasn’t qualified or able to help them. Or, in some cases, the person who was supposed to help them with trauma actually made their trauma worse. As a trusted voice in the survivor community and an expert in trauma, Dr. Monroe gives practical, actionable steps about what to do—and not to do—in one’s healing journey. He talks about the ways trauma hinders all aspects of oneself. “You need to take care of your body—it’s the only one you have,” he says. Healing from trauma isn’t a journey anyone wanted to be on. Yet Dr. Monroe gives each of us strategies, tools, and even grace to take the time and energy needed for the path ahead. Guests Phil Monroe Philip Monroe, PsyD, is a psychologist who leads Langberg, Monroe & Associates, a private clinical practice in the greater Philadelphia area. He is the Taylor Visiting Professor of Counseling at Missio Seminary where he and Dr. Diane Langberg founded the Global Trauma Recovery Institute. Learn more at philipmonroe.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, PHIL MONROE PHIL MONROE  00:04 Once you’ve experienced trauma, how do you heal? What do you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey? Welcome to The Roys Report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and on this podcast you’re going to hear a talk from our last RESTORE conference by Dr. Phil Monroe on the do’s and don’ts of healing. Phil is a trusted voice in the survivor community. He leads the counseling practice begun by Dr. Diane Langberg, a popular author and globally recognized trauma expert. Phil is an expert on trauma as well and leads the trauma healing Institute at the American Bible Society, and he’s a repeat speaker at RESTORE and someone whose wisdom and gentle demeanor has made him a favorite at the conference. But I especially appreciated his talk at the last RESTORE. So often I hear from people who knew they were traumatized and needed help. But sadly, they didn’t know how to find the help that they needed. They ended up in the care of someone who wasn’t qualified or able to help them. Or in some cases, the person who was supposed to help actually made their trauma worse. So, this is an incredibly important topic and one I’m eager for all of you to hear. Julie Roys  01:18 But first I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys  02:21 Well, again, the talk you’re about to hear is from Dr. Phil Monroe from our last restore conference in October. Here’s his message on the do’s and don’ts of healing from trauma. PHIL MONROE  02:32 It’s good to be here with you. And it is good to follow Carson and LoriAnne. Thank you for telling us your story. Thank you for shining light. It’s costly when you tell your story. Even when you tell your story in front of a group of safe people, it’s costly. And I bet some of you too, have been telling your story on the sides here of the room for coffee over lunch, and you’ve been telling parts of it. And you might find yourself at the end of this weekend exhausted. That’s normal. That’s what happens to us when we exert the energy to speak and to speak the unspeakable. So, I encourage you ,have compassion, take care of you. Think about what you’re going to be putting into your body and what you’re going to do the rest of this weekend when this conference is over. Because you will need recovery time. We all do. I also encourage you when the videos come out, play back Dr. Lena’s, Carson’s, and Lori Anne’s parts where they’re talking about how they recovered. Your journey will look different. It will be different; you have different stories, you have different guides, you have different geographies to traverse. But there’s goodness in there to hear again from them, what it’s been taking for them to heal, what did they need? What helped? This is the question that I get asked a lot and for why I came up here today. PHIL MONROE  04:19 How do we know if we’re doing this journey right? This journey of healing it is a journey. Trauma is a wound that affects every part of your life. It hinders your ability to relate to your own self, much less your family, your friends, your community, and your faith. It takes a long time to heal. And it feels like this journey that we never wanted to be on that we never asked for, and we’re in this foreign land that doesn’t make any sense. And we’re both somehow equally alone on this journey, but with a whole bunch of people on the sidelines yelling advice to us. And some of it might be helpful. A lot of it probably isn’t. Right? So, this journey that you never wanted to be on takes energy and time. And so, let’s take a few moments to just talk about, how do we know if we’re doing it right? What is it supposed to be like this journey of healing? Carson talked this morning about, you know, doing it and feeling like he was making progress., and then going back down in the hole, I think LoriAnne said the same thing. This is what it feels like, we go a step forward, and 10 back. This is the healing journey. It’s normal, it’s natural. And you are doing it right. PHIL MONROE  05:52 I want to give you a little bit of a preview about where we’re going. Well, I’ll talk about a few things, a few hooks to hang some ideas on. We’ll look at some of the myths that we believe that kind of interrupt our healing journey, we’ll look at some of the red flags, I’ll add to some of the things that LoriAnne said, some red flags about those helpers, those guides along the way that we should give pause to and consider whether or not that’s the right person for us. And then end with some ideas about all the therapies that are out there that you’ve heard, and what you might do in order to try to figure out what’s the right thing for me. Again, I’m not going to be able to tell you what that right thing is for you. But if we have some ideas, and things that can help us make that decision, then we might be in a better place. PHIL MONROE  06:47 So, let’s start with three things that you can hang all of what we’re going to talk on, on what it means to be on the healing journey, three hooks that you need. These are three things that no matter what model you use, no matter what kind of guide you’re looking for, you probably need in your life. The very first thing is to take care of your body, to take care of you. Trauma affects every part of your life. It affects your body, your mind, your soul, your spirit, every bit of you has been impacted. And your number one activity is to take care of you. And to do it with compassion and curiosity. I’m going to repeat that a couple of times during our talk here, because I actually find it rather rare in our Christian environments. Somehow self-compassion sounds like self-ish. And curiosity seems dangerous, because we might ask  unlight questions, and we might come up with some answers of things that help that others think no, you can’t do that. You need to take care of this body of yours. It’s the only one you get. This has come to my attention more recently in the last couple of weeks, I hurt my back. You’ve seen me with a cane around here. This is a violation of my pride. So, I didn’t bring it up here. But I needed it. And what happened is, I thought I was younger than I was, and I carried around a heavy backpack for a lot of miles, and then paid the price a few days later. What happened to me was, my muscles went into contraction, and I was immobilized. And even as I began to the healing journey, and getting physical therapy and medications and understanding what was going on with me, I didn’t want to move, everything locked up. Any movement could bring that spasm back. And I needed guides and friends to say, you know, you can relax those other muscles that aren’t working right now. I had to tell myself this over and over again. I had to think about, what does my body need? My instinct was to actually not move in order to not hurt. But I needed to remember no actually, movement helps. As one of my friends says, motion is lotion. It keeps you moving so you can move more. Right? So, this is the small little trauma that I experienced that lasted for about a week and I’m still recovering from it. But imagine if your body has been impacted by decades of trauma, how much more compassion we need to have and curiosity? It didn’t do me any good to beat u

Guest Bios Show Transcript Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Think about what it means when applied to a pastor’s role in a church. What about the priesthood of all believers? And where is Jesus in that equation? In this edition of The Roys Report, veteran church planter and pastor, Lance Ford, challenges popular views of leadership, showing how they’re the opposite of what Scripture teaches. In the Body of Christ, the pastor is not the head; Jesus is! In 2012, Lance Ford’s landmark work UnLeader exposed how unbiblical models of leadership have become an obsession in the church. Now The Atlas Factor, which is about shifting leadership onto the shoulders of Jesus, serves as a sequel to that book. One of the most eye-opening truths of The Atlas Factor is that leadership, when presented as a key to organizational success, is a relatively new concept. The multi-billion-dollar industry built around teaching and training people in leadership—in both the corporate world and the church—has emerged only within the past 40 to 50 years. And this model of leadership didn’t come from Scripture; it came from the world. Lance was featured in a recent podcast with his message from the Restore Conference titled, “It’s the System, Stupid.” If you caught that message, then you heard a preview of what Lance and Julie delve into in-depth in this podcast. Lance’s prophetic message is a clarion call to the church to return to Jesus’ way of doing things—or continue to face disastrous consequences. Guests Lance Ford Lance Ford is an author, church planter, coach, and consultant who has designed unique training systems currently being used by networks, seminaries, and leaders throughout the world. He has written several books including The Atlas Factor, UnLeader, The Missional Quest, and The Starfish and the Spirit. Lance holds a master’s degree in Global Leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary. Learn more at LanceFordBooks.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSLANCE FORD, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Certainly, great leaders can make a big difference in the success of an organization. But think about what that line applied to the church really means. Does everything rise or fall on the pastor? What about the priesthood of all believers? What about the body of Christ, where each member plays a vital role? And most importantly, what about Jesus? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and joining me today is Lance Ford, who spent decades planting and pastoring churches. And recently we published his talk from the RESTORE conference where he argued that so many of the scandals and issues that we see in the church today stem from our toxic model of leadership. Well, today you’re in for a treat, because Lance is joining me to discuss his new book, The Atlas Factor. And this book eviscerates the conventional wisdom that leadership is everything. In fact, one of the most eye-opening things I learned in this book is that leadership is a relatively new concept. Sure, there have always been people who lead and manage organizations. But leadership as this thing that’s crucial to the success of organizations is relatively new. And certainly, the industry that’s been built around teaching and training people in leadership in both the corporate world and the church is super new, like within the past 40 to 50 years. But I think the pressing question, especially in the church concerns whether these notions of leadership we’re training pastors to follow are actually biblical. And if they’re not, what’s the alternative? We’ll dig into those questions in just a minute.   Julie Roys  01:46 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity, to check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:49 Well, again, joining me is Lance Ford, a church planter, coach, and consultant who spent decades pastoring and planting churches. And out of that experience and biblical study, he’s designed unique training systems that are being used by seminaries, church networks, and leaders throughout the world. Lance is also the author of several books, including one of my favorites called Unleader. This book exposes the obsession in the church to unbiblical models of leadership. It’s fantastic and eye opening. And Lance’s latest book, The Atlas Factor, is essentially a sequel to Unleader, and it’s quickly become one of my favorites as well. So, Lance, thanks so much for joining me. I’m really, really looking forward to our discussion.   LANCE FORD  03:29 It’s always one of my favorite things to do is visit with you, Julie.   Julie Roys  03:32 I’m glad to hear that. And I should mention that you also are a recent addition to The Roys Report board. So, we’re pretty excited about that. But I know you spoke at RESTORE and I heard from so so many people, but our board as well, just saying, hey, we need to get this guy on our board. So just really, really glad for all the wisdom that you’re going to bring to the board. So, thanks for being willing to do that.   LANCE FORD  03:55 Well, it’s a huge honor to be invited to be a part of y’all. The boardroom didn’t get smarter because I showed up it probably got a little dumber When I joined.   Julie Roys  04:04 I do not believe that. But as I mentioned, you spoke at RESTORE and gave a great talk on toxic leadership and  our obsession with it and probably had the best line of the entire conference I have to say, which became the title of the podcast that we put out with your talk, which is, It’s the System, Stupid! Just briefly for those who didn’t hear your talk, which if you didn’t hear Lance’s talk, it’s the System, Stupid!, I think it was like back in mid-December, we published that. Go back and listen to his talk. It is so so good. But talk about what you meant by that, that it’s the system stupid.   LANCE FORD  04:41 I think probably Julie one day I was probably somewhere along the midst of listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill  podcast, and I was just thinking, they just keep talking about symptoms, symptoms. They never get to the solution, and I just said it out loud. It’s the system stupid. And it reminded me, James Carville’s deal with Clinton. It’s the economy stupid. So that’s kind of where that came from is that all these problems that we have are downstream from a messed-up system. And you can’t just deal with the symptoms and try to throw drugs at the symptoms. You have to bandage the wounds, pouring the oil on the wine, that’s necessary to say the least. Well, let’s do some preventative medicine. Let’s go back to the headwaters of this thing and try to nip some of this stuff in the bud. And it just seems that the answer almost every time, especially internally, from the groups that are in the midst of these falls and these breakdowns in leadership, usually their answer is, well, we just need better accountability. But it’s the same type of what they call accountability. So rare is it that when you hear a group say, well, we need new leadership, they don’t mean they need new leadership systems. They mean, we need a new hero leader.   Julie Roys  06:05 Yeah. Oh, exactly. I mean, I remember when Rick Warren was stepping down. And of course, there’s all sorts of issues with Andy Wood, who was picked as his successor. And we’ve published many articles on how he apparently is a horribly abusive leader. But he’s now in that position. And when I heard the language, though, it was like we need to find a successor for Rick. And I thought, really, who can be the successor to Rick Warren, and who is capable of being in a position over so many churches and having so many people following you? And I sit there and wonder, because there’s this idea that there’s going to be this really good, noble, full of integrity leader that can handle those kinds of pressures. And I sit there, and I look at that, and I’m like, I don’t know that I can handle that. That’s an awful lot to shoulder. And I think that really is at the root of what you’re talking about in this book, The Atlas Factor. The metaphor is great of you know, Atlas with the weight of the world on his shoulders. But essentially, that’s what we’ve set up leaders to be, to be Atlas, to do the impossible, and then we’re surprised when they fail. Here’s a quote that’s very early in your book from the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, they’re irrefutable.   LANCE FORD  07:15 Be careful, Julie.   Julie Roys  07:17 But the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership is this quote from LeRoy Eims, “a leader is one who sees more than others see, who sees further than others see, and who sees before others do.” And then there’s the quote that I said at the beginning of the podcast, that “everything rises or falls on leadership.” It’s almost like we have made these men into gods; talk about that whole dynamic and what it’s

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/RF-3TbX8fXAAs a Christian in Iran, Naghmeh Panahi was arrested numerous times—and once even had a gun pointed at her head. But as awful as that was, Naghmeh says she endured something far worse when she began speaking out about abuse from her husband. It was then that she faced persecution—not from radical Muslims, but from Christians. In this edition of The Roys Report, you’re going to hear Julie’s powerful interview at the Restore Conference with Naghmeh Panahi. Naghmeh was catapulted into the national spotlight in 2013, a year after her husband, Pastor Saeed Abedini, was imprisoned for his faith in Iran.  With the help of Franklin Graham of Samaritan’s Purse and Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice, Naghmeh launched the Save Saeed campaign. The campaign garnered worldwide attention. And it eventually led to Saeed’s release in 2015. But during this time, Naghmeh learned that Saeed’s violence, repeated insults, and spiritual manipulation were not just a sign of a bad marriage. It was abuse.  Yet, when she spoke out about the abuse, the backlash from Christians was virulent and cruel. And the psychological and spiritual damage from that backlash was far worse than anything Naghmeh said she encountered in Iran. In this interview, Naghmeh talks candidly about the abuse and the Christian community’s failure to stand with victims. But she also talks about the persecuted church—and how the Western Church’s failure to care for the abused and broken is not a bug but a feature.  Drawing from her book, aptly titled, I Didn’t Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse, Naghmeh’s message is a prophetic witness to the American church—if we will listen in and take heed.  In her talk, Naghmeh refers to recent books by Miriam Ibraheem and Lance Ford. Guests Naghmeh Panahi Naghmeh Panahi is an author, speaker, and Bible teacher. Naghmeh made national news when she publicly advocated for the release of her then-husband, Saeed Abedini, who was imprisoned in Iran for his Christian faith. Naghmeh’s autobiography, I Didn’t Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse, is available now. Learn more at NaghmehPanahi.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSNAGHMEH PANAHI, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04As a Christian in Iran, Naghmeh Panahi was arrested numerous times and once even had a gun pointed at her head. But as awful as that was Naghmeh says she endured something far worse when she began speaking out about abuse from her husband. It was then that she faced persecution, not from radical Muslims, but from Christians. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today you’re going to hear my powerful interview at the RESTORE conference with Naghmeh Panahi. Naghmeh was catapulted into the national spotlight when her husband, Pastor Saeed Abedini, was imprisoned for his faith in Iran. And with the help of Franklin Graham of Samaritan’s Purse, and Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice, Naghmeh launched the Save Saeed campaign. The campaign garnered worldwide attention and it eventually lead to Saeed’s release. But during this time, Naghmeh learned that Saeed’s violence, repeated insults, and spiritual manipulation was not just a sign of a bad marriage, it was abuse. Yet when she spoke out about the abuse, the backlash from Christians was virulent and cruel. And the psychological and spiritual damage from that backlash was far worse than anything Naghmeh said she encountered in Iran. In our interview, Naghmeh talks candidly about the abuse and the Christian community’s failure to stand with victims. But she also talks about the persecuted church and how the Western Church’s failure to care for the abused and broken is not a bug but a feature. I am so grateful for Naghmeh’s, prophetic witness to the American church, and I’m confident that God is using that witness both through podcasts like these, and in Naghmeh’s book aptly titled, I Didn’t Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution and Hidden Abuse.   Julie Roys  01:50 We’ll get to my interview with Naghmeh just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:56 Well, again, here’s my interview with Naghmeh Panahi on surviving persecution from the church. This is from our last RESTORE conference in October 2023.   Julie Roys  03:07 Let’s just start with a little bit of your story. And again, those of you who know her story, this may be familiar, but I know I learned a lot of new things. You were born in Iran. And the interesting thing is you got to see Iran before the revolution, and then after. Talk about what the change was in Iran when you when you saw that happen?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  03:29 Yeah, I was actually born soon, a few years before the revolution. So, my mom was one of the first women in the king’s army, as a woman, which was pretty radical for her time. And also just, you know, Iran has had Islam for about 1400 years, so not Islamic culture. And she was very proud woman with her gun and protecting the Shah, but also, you know, having authority in a sense that women usually didn’t have. So, my mom was kind of protecting the king from the revolution. My dad was actually one of the people that wanted the Islamic Revolution, because, before the revolution, people like my mom, were wearing miniskirts. And, you know, just like the US, they were free, and my dad and his group of people thought, you know, we’re becoming too westernized. And if we have an Islamic religious revolution, then the culture will be more purified. And so, I kind of grew up in chaos. I saw  tires burning, my mom going, and my nanny would cry, and is she going to come back? Cuz she was trying to defend against the protesters, and then my dad would be in the streets and there was different groups that were trying to take over the government. And they were all radical and there was a lot of people just been killed in the streets. And so, I kind of grew up in a very chaotic political atmosphere of where the country was becoming very Islamic. And so, I went to school I shared in my book, my photo from my school, elementary school and I looked at and I was the most covered up. Like some of the girls had their head covering a little back. Just from the photo, you can tell I was so afraid. I was told you can’t show hair and all this teaching that was like going through the schools about just Islam and how we had to cover up. And so, it was very foreign to me, having seen my mom without a covering, and then seeing her, she had to be all covered up and her rank  taken away from her. And she had to be in an office setting, as a woman couldn’t have any authority over men in any position of power. And so, I was noticing a lot of that changes and the fear that was gripping a lot of the woman. I would actually have a lot of dreams that I was walking in the streets in Iran without head covering, and I was being arrested. And that was one of my, a lot of the nightmares I had. But just the fear of having to cover up and right around the revolution right after there was a war with Iraq. So, I also grew up in war, we had bombs and missiles. And I was just flipping through my social media, and I saw a video with the sirens going off in Israel. And all of a sudden I had a panic attack, because I would hear those sirens all of the time, the bomb sirens and you have to go to shelter and not knowing if your house was going to be the next one that was bombed, or a missile would hit it, or a lot of the Iraqi soldiers were certain parts of Iran were attacking and raping and taking captives and women and children were being killed. And so, it’s brought back a lot of that memory as a child, even just hearing that siren was so hard to listen to.   Julie Roys  06:47 I’m thinking when you’re talking about being covered up your mother losing her rank, being afraid as a woman I mean, I’m thinking of Sheila’s talk yesterday. I mean, this is like modesty message on steroids. As a young girl, how did you internalize, did that make you feel different about you?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  07:04 Yeah, I was told as a seven-year-old at that time. Like when I went to school, I had to dress up, like cover up, I was told that I was sexually appealing to men.   Julie Roys  07:14  As a seven-year-old?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  07:16 That’s what I we had to once I went to school, like six, seven-year-old got to be fully covered. And people I know that had their relatives like their grandmother had married at the age of nine and their mother had married at the age of 12. Right now, we do work in Afghanistan, and since the Taliban has taken over these, as soon as the girl hits puberty, like nine, a lot of times 9-10, they’re being married and they’re now giving birth to babies at like 10, 11,

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/eX7GZjdC4DE Why can’t people get over talking about race? Ever heard that line? Or, how about: We live in a post-racial world. We’ve even had a black president! If racism doesn’t exist, then we don’t have to deal with it. Yet racism, sadly, is alive and well—not just in our culture, but within the church. On this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Dr. Lainna Callentine—an educator, pediatrician, and former evangelical faith leader—delivers a powerful talk from our recent Restore Conference. Lainna has walked an incredibly difficult and painful journey as a Black woman in the evangelical church. This is a journey that white evangelicals often don’t acknowledge. And it’s an experience that Julie Roys, TRR founder and a friend of Lainna’s, admits that she once didn’t believe or affirm. But, just as Julie’s eyes have been opened to abuse and corruption in the church, the past few years have given her a new awareness of racism in the church, as you’ll hear in Julie’s introduction of Lainna’s talk. Lainna’s talk, which is rich with history and personal anecdotes, has the power to open the eyes of many others. Please listen with a heart and mind open to what Lainna and the Holy Spirit have to say. Guests Lainna Callentine, M.D., M.Ed. Lainna Callentine, M.D., M.Ed., is a pediatrician, former homeschool mother, master's trained educator, and creator of curriculum program, Sciexperience. Dr. Callentine received her B.A. from Northwestern University and completed her M.D. at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. She has taught all levels from early childhood to postgraduate students. Learn more at sciexperience.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. Julie Roys  00:04 Why can’t people just get over talking about race? Ever heard that line? Or how about, we live in a post racial world, we even had a black president. Of course, if racism doesn’t exist, then we don’t have to deal with it. But as you’re about to hear racism, sadly is alive and well, not just in our culture, but within the church. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And on this podcast, you’re about to hear a powerful talk from our RESTORE conference by Dr. Lainna CALLENTINE Lainna is a pediatrician and an educator and a former faith leader in the evangelical church. But she’s also a friend of mine who’s walked an incredibly difficult and painful journey as a black woman in the white Evangelical Church. This is a journey that white evangelicals often don’t acknowledge. And as you’ll hear, it’s an experience I once didn’t believe or affirm. But just like I’ve had my eyes opened to abuse and corruption in the church, the past few years have opened my eyes to racism in the church as well. And coming to terms with this reality has been hard because I’ve had to deal with my own ignorance and indifference. And I’ve had to acknowledge my complicity with a sinful system that treats persons of color as less than full bearers of the image of God. But what Lainna did, coming into a predominantly white space and delivering this message was even harder. And I think that’s something I haven’t realized until recently as well. So many of our Black, Hispanic, Asian, and indigenous brothers and sisters have been profoundly wounded and traumatized by white Christians. And they have every reason to expect that when they speak to us, they’ll be minimized, dismissed, and traumatized again. I’m grateful that didn’t happen at RESTORE and I hope like the audience at RESTORE, you’ll open your heart and your mind to receive this important message from Dr. Lainna Callentine on surviving white evangelical racism.   Julie Roys  01:57 But before we hear from Lena, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM   Julie Roys  03:01 Well, again, you’re about to hear a talk by Dr. Lainna Callentine on surviving and thriving beyond white evangelical racism. I’ve also included in this podcast a portion of my introduction of Lainna at RESTORE, which includes an important apology. For time sake, I’ve had to remove my description of how my eyes were opened to racism in the church, while investigating what happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church, the Church John Piper pastored for three decades. But I encourage you if you want to understand more about the covert nature of racism in the evangelical church, go back and listen to our two-part podcast on what happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church when you’re finished with Lainna’s talk. But now here’s Lainna’s powerful talk at RESTORE 2023 with a short introduction and apology by me.   Julie Roys  03:49 So, three weeks ago, our next guest and I got together at her request, and we talked for about four hours. And she said, Julie, I just don’t know if I can do this talk. And she said this is what normally happens when I come into a predominantly white audience, and I talk about the trauma I’ve experienced as an African American woman in the church. So, I go out there and I bleed,  I bare my soul, and then they look at me with eyes of disbelief., and they just go on their way. And I mostly listened because I really didn’t have a lot to say, and I just needed to hear. And then she reminded me about how we had gotten together because our next guest is a friend of mine. In fact, she was my daughter’s 11th grade biology teacher. And she reminded me of a time we got together in a coffee house, and she shared her, really bared her soul to me, about all the racism that she had experienced. And she said, Julie, I didn’t feel like you believed me either. And the truth is six, seven, however, many years ago, this was I didn’t really believe it. I mean, I believe there was probably some racism in the church. It really wasn’t until I did the investigation on Bethlehem Baptist Church, John Piper’s church, and I got to know these people who had persons of color that had gotten together, had a dinner for the first time where it was just them. And they shared some of their experiences. And out of that, they decided that they wanted to put together a committee and address why is it that we have so few persons of color on our elder board? And then what happened with this committee is that then they spent, I forget how many months, a lot of months working on this, and then they gave their findings. And you know, it’s kind of death in committee. They gave their findings, that was it, nothing happened. Every single member of that committee ended up leaving the church.   Julie Roys  06:22 And so, it kind of opened my eyes to how this is done. And it’s kind of a covert thing. And I had to say to Lainna, you know what? I’m sorry. I’m sorry that I didn’t see that. And I’m sure that hurt you. And that was wrong of me. And I also told her that you guys are different. And when you’ve had enough bad experiences with white people, it’s hard to say this group is different. But I said, one, this group knows about believing victims, about believing survivors, and believing their stories. And we also know that when you get up and you bleed, when you tell your story, we get the cost. It’s like re traumatizing. And if you’re going to do that, and nothing’s going to happen. It’s like it happened again. Right? And so, I know you guys, I believe in you guys, or I wouldn’t have asked my friend to come, who I care about deeply. And It’s my prayer that this will be a healing experience for all of us. But especially for persons of color who have been hurt profoundly in the church. Just to tell you a little bit about Lainna’s credentials. She’s a pediatrician, who completed her MD at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. She’s also a former homeschool mother, Master’s trained educator, a creative curriculum program called SCI Experience. And then she served on a whole bunch of different Christian organizations that we would recognize, although she said to make sure that I say she was the former, or formerly served on the Physician Resource Council at Focus on the Family. But I love Lainna dearly. And I’ll just warn you, she doesn’t mince words. I have no idea what she’s gonna say. Let’s welcome Lainna.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 08:38 Thanks, Julie, for your words, and your apology is very heartfelt. Thank you. One of the things you need to know that I’m just traumatized being in this space speaking to you. Okay? And I know that as we prayed for all of you this morning, how coming into a church space listening to some of the songs that we’re singing, how traumatizing that is to you. And I hold that in my heart and understand that pain. As I’ve walked through evangelical spaces there are many things that have been said to me. These are just a few in the fine collection of lines that have been delivered to me with good intentions. I don’t see color. You are so articulate. You’re playing the race card that I’m doing reverse discrimination and racism. Why can’t people get over talking about race? I don’t even care if you’re black, white, or purple. I’

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/hteO426dZ6c Men need sex. And it’s their wives’ job to give it to them—unconditionally, whenever they want it, or these husbands will come under Satanic attack. Stunningly, that’s the message contained in many Christian marriage books. Yet, research shows that instead of increasing intimacy in marriages, messages like these are promoting abuse. In this edition of The Roys Report, featuring a talk from our recent Restore Conference, author Sheila Wray Gregoire provides eye-opening insights based on her and her team’s extensive research on evangelicalism and sex. Out of a desire for evangelicals’ conversations about sex to be healthy, evidence-based, and rooted in Christ, Sheila and her team have analyzed many popular Christian books on sex. Many teach that men are incapable of not objectifying women. And instead of training men to control their urges, these books teach that women must save these men. If a husband struggles with porn, for example, it’s his wife’s job to give him more sex so he can go cold turkey. If a husband is abusive to his wife, it’s his wife’s job to pray the abuse away. And if you’re a single woman, it’s your job to dress in such a way that your body never “intoxicates” a man. With messages like these, is it any wonder that abuse victims often feel like it’s their fault if someone hurts them? Is it any wonder that pastors like John MacArthur can convince wives that it’s her duty to stay with a man who abuses her and their children? As Sheila explains, the patterns of abuse we’re seeing in the church today are a symptom of these toxic evangelical teachings. And to solve the problem of abuse, we need to analyze and challenge these unbiblical teachings. Guests Sheila Wray Gregoire Sheila Wray Gregoire is an author, podcaster, and researcher into evangelicalism and sex. Her goal through Bare Marriage, a popular podcast and ministry, is to change the evangelical conversation about sex to be healthy, evidence-based, and rooted in Christ. She lives in Ontario, Canada, with her husband. They have two adult daughters and two grandbabies. Learn more at BareMarriage.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE Julie Roys  00:05 Men need sex and it’s their wives job to give it to them unconditionally whenever they want it, or these husbands will come under satanic attack. Stunningly, that’s the message contained in many Christian marriage books. Yet research shows that instead of increasing intimacy and marriages, messages like these are promoting abuse. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and what you’re about to hear is an eye-opening talk by Sheila Ray Gregoire at our latest RESTORE conference. Sheila is an author and podcaster who’s done extensive research on evangelicalism and sex. And what she’s discovered is that many evangelical books teach an unbiblical message that men are incapable of not objectifying women. And instead of training men to control their urges, these books teach that women must save these men. If a husband struggles with porn, for example, it’s his wife’s job to give him more sex so he can go cold turkey. If a husband is abusive to his wife, it’s his wife’s job to pray the abuse away. And if you’re a single woman, it’s your job to dress in such a way that your body never intoxicates a man with messages like these. Is it any wonder that abuse victims often feel like it’s their fault if someone hurts them? Is it any wonder that pastors like John MacArthur can convince wives that it’s their duty to stay with a man that abuses them and their children? As Sheila explains in this important talk, the abuse that’s rampant in the church is just a symptom of this toxic teaching so prevalent in evangelicalism. And unless we address this false teaching, we’ll never solve the problem of abuse. So, I’m very excited to share Sheila’s eye-opening talk with you.   Julie Roys  01:57 But first, I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go toJUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  03:02 Well, again, you’re about to hear a talk by Sheila Gregoire on how evangelical teachings on sex promote abuse. Sheila is the founder of BAREMARRIAGE.COM. She’s also the author of several popular books, including The Great Sex Rescue, and She Deserves Better. Sheila’s goal is to change the evangelical conversation about sex to be healthy, evidence based and rooted in Christ. And so, I’m so excited to share this message that Sheila gave at the RESTORE conference.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  03:32 It was a Friday afternoon in January of 2019, and I was sitting on my yellow chair in my living room trying to figure out how to procrastinate. I had a migraine, and I didn’t want to work, and so I was on Twitter. And I was reading a conversation between some women arguing whether or not they needed love or respect. And I thought, well, I’m a woman and I need respect. And so, I started chiming in and we were getting all spicy. And then I thought, I have that book. And I had never read it. So, Love and Respect, written by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs, who got his PhD from somewhere, I don’t know. Anyway, it’s based on the idea that women need love. and men need respect. Oh, actually, no, it’s not. The subtitle is, the love she most desires, the respect he desperately needs. So, she has desires, and he has desperate needs. But I realized I have that book and I’ve never read it. And so, I thought this is a great way to procrastinate. So, I went, and I got it, and I opened to the sex chapter because I’m kind of the sex lady and that’s what I do. It was only about 12 pages long. And that was when the nuclear bomb went off in my living room. Because I read to my horror, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have, and that need is for physical release. So, if he doesn’t get physical release, he will come under satanic attack. And through that chapter, he keeps referring to sex as a man’s physical release. There was not a single word about intimacy. There was not a single word about women feeling pleasure, too.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  04:07 So, I called my team, and we freaked out a bit. And we decided to write a post on our blog about the way that the book handled sex. And that post got so many eyeballs that we spent a whole week on love and respect. And over that week, we had email upon email, and comment upon comment about how that book had enabled abuse in their marriage. Working with me, was a young woman in her late 20s at the time, who has a master’s in epidemiology and is the statistician, but she was home with her baby. And so, she was just working remotely part time for me. And she said, you know what we should do Sheila? we should create a mixed-methods, qualitative analysis of the comments, and we should send it into Focus on the Family, who publishes the book, because maybe they don’t know. Maybe they don’t realize how harmful this is. And so, over the next few weeks, Joanna proceeded to do that. And we sent it to Focus. I knew Jim Daly; I had been on Focus on the Family several times. And we sent a nice letter about how harmful the book had been. And we never heard back. And so, Joanne said to me, “You know what I should do? I should go back and get my PhD so that I could do a study of how messages in the evangelical church are hurting women’s marital and sexual satisfaction. And I said, Joanna, I bet I could get a publisher to pay us to do it. And that is what we did.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  06:59 Until that day, I had never actually read another Christian book on sex and marriage. I mostly just wrote my own stuff. I was really scared of plagiarizing. But then we decided that we needed to open our eyes and see what was really going on. So, we surveyed 20,000 women for our book, The Great Sex Rescue. It’s the largest study of evangelical women’s marital and sexual satisfaction that’s ever been done. Did any of you take that study? Were any of you in mind, thank you. I know that was like half an hour of your life you can’t get back. I appreciate it very, very much. We’re doing a new survey that will be out in about two weeks. So, if you follow me, we will be putting out soon we will have a great need for people to take that one as well. But we surveyed 20,000 women measuring how various evangelical messages affected their marital and sexual satisfaction. And what we found was that there was four big messages in the church that really hurt women. And these messages are not biblical. They’re not from Jesus. They are what we have decided, as a church collectively are true. And we’ve done great harm with them.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  08:20 And so those messages are a woman is obligated to give her husband sex when he wants it. 39% of women that we surveyed entered marriage believing that. All men struggle with lust, it’s every man’s battle. A woman should have frequent sex with her husband to keep him from watching pornography. And boys will push your sexual boundaries and so girls need to be the gatekeeper. The sum total of those messages does gr

Guest Bios Show Transcript America is experiencing the largest and fastest religious shift in its history—greater than the First and the Second Great Awakening and every revival in the U.S. combined. But instead of a massive shift into the church, what we’re seeing is a mass exodus. In this edition of The Roys Report, you’ll hear from Michael Graham, co-author of The Great DeChurching: Who’s Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will It Take to Bring Them Back. Based on the most comprehensive study of people leaving the church in America, the book gives keen insights into this phenomenon. You’ll learn why people are leaving the church, which demographic groups are leaving in the greatest numbers, and what can be done to stop the bleed. And the results may surprise followers of this podcast. Though much of our reporting focuses on corruption and abuse in the church, these issues were not the greatest factors people cited for leaving. The reasons cited were much more mundane than you might think. We are living in a unique moment—what research says is the greatest “dechurching” in nearly 250 years of this nation. This exodus doesn’t just affect society or public expressions of faith; it impacts family relationships and how people relate to each other. Tune in for a highly informative conversation that examines the state of the church and why restoring her matters. Guests Michael Graham Michael Graham is program director for The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. He is also the executive producer and writer of As In Heaven and co-author of The Great Dechurching. He received his MDiv at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando. He is a member at Orlando Grace Church. He is married to Sara, and they have two kids Show Transcript SPEAKERS MICHAEL GRAHAM, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04 America is experiencing the largest and fastest religious shift in its history greater than the first and the second Great Awakening and every revival in the US combined. But instead of a massive shift into the church, what we’re seeing is a mass exodus, and the greatest de churching in nearly 250 years. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and on this podcast you’ll hear from Michael Grant, co- author of the new book The Great Dechurching. Based on the most comprehensive study of people leaving the church in America, the book gives keen insights into this phenomenon. You’ll learn why people are leaving the church, which demographics are leaving in the greatest numbers, and what can be done to stop the bleed. And the results may surprise followers of this podcast. Though much of our reporting focuses on corruption and abuse in the church, these issues were not the greatest factors people cited for leaving. The reasons were much more mundane than you might think. And we’ll dig into those in just a minute.   Julie Roys  01:05 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top-ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:09 Well, again, joining me is Michael Grant, Program Director at the Keller Center for Cultural apologetics. He’s also the executive producer and writer for the As In Heaven podcast. And he’s also a member at Orlando Grace Church where Jim Davis, who’s the co-author for his latest book, The Great Dechurching. He is also a teaching pastor. So, Michael, welcome. It’s a pleasure to have you join me.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  02:31 So good to be here with you, Julie.   Julie Roys  02:32 So, Michael, your book is based on an extensive study that sought to prove or disprove this thesis that America’s in the middle of the largest and greatest religious shift in its history. And what you discovered is pretty sobering. Would you tell me about that?   MICHAEL GRAHAM  02:47 Yeah. So, I mean, the Cliff’s Notes version is that 40 million adult Americans have left houses of worship, across all religious traditions. And by and large, almost all of that has occurred in the last 30 years. So, from the moment of Nirvana’s Smells Like Teen Spirit to today, 40 million people have gone from, you know, the various pews of all religious traditions. Now, most of those are out of what you’d call Christian traditions, about 15 million of that out of evangelical traditions, and then about another 20 million out of Roman Catholic and mainline traditions, the other traditions are a lot smaller. So, we weren’t really sure what we would be looking at in terms of why there were two prevailing storylines, depending on what your kind of media diet looked like. If your media diet looked a little bit left leaning, then the story was basically that people had been leaving houses of worship primarily because of mistakes made by those institutions themselves. So, this would be things like racism, misogyny, abuse, political syncretism, clergy scandal. If your media diet leaned a little bit to the right, the prevailing story was basically a story of secularism, or sexual revolution, progressivism, people are leaving houses of worship, because they’re no longer worshipping the Triune God, they’re worshipping some other, you know, forms of non-Christian things. The reality is that you can find several million people who would fit both that first story or that second story. However, most of the people might have elements of either of those two stories in there, but most of them left for really, really boring reasons. So, the challenge is like not necessarily saying that story A or story B is wrong. There’s actually a story C that is not as interesting. That’s also there and is kind of  the water that we’re all kind of in is the number one reason why people you know, left houses of worship, and stop going on at least a monthly basis. So that’s how we defined the charging somebody who used to go to church, or house of worship at least monthly, consistently, and now less than once per year. So even if you go to church on Christmas Eve, or Christmas, or Easter or Christmas and Easter, we still counted you in our study as being churched. So, if you think the 40 million number sounds scary, you know, if you take all the Christmas and Easter people out.   Julie Roys  05:32 That is like a really, really low bar.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  05:35 There’s many, many more people. But basically, the number one reason I moved, right after that is, attendance was inconvenient. After that is some kind of marriage, divorce, new child, or some other significant family change. After you kind of get past some of those reasons, you start to get into some of the reasons where people experience some more pain or some more friction, either at the individual level, or at the institutional level. But it really kind of looks like of the 40 million people who left, 30 million left, what we called casually, and about 10 million left as casualties. And so, 10 million people is a lot of people, okay, I don’t want to downplay at all the people who have significant church hurt at the individual, institutional or both levels. But there’s also just kind of 30 million people where it just kind of looks like, okay, well, just the inertia of American life and their rhythms and habits just kind of had them floating on.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  06:45 Now, the interesting thing about really, across the board, both the people who left casually and unintentionally, as well as the people who left as casualties and left highly intentionally, most of them are willing to return today to a house of worship of some sort. Some of them were willing to go back to exactly what they left and some of them are not willing to go back to exactly what they left, but willing to go to something that we would all consider as being part of the historic Christian tradition.   Julie Roys  07:18 Yeah, I was surprised when I read it, how many people just dropped out because well, even COVID. Like, they just got out of the habit. And I guess we’re seeing that. I mean, I know that’s a phenomenon. But it’s stunning in some ways that something that you would expect to be so central to a person’s life, that they would give it up just because it’s inconvenient, or they get out of the habit of going. And yet, maybe that speaks to where the spiritual state before that happened. But that was surprising, I thought finding of the study.   Julie Roys  07:48 I thought too just thinking through what’s at stake, which you do kind of in that first section relationally, what’s happening, you know, between parents and their kids, and you had this one line which struck me because I’m over 50. And it says, anecdotally, we know, of almost no parents over the age of 50, who don’t have at least one child who is dechurched. And I’ve got three kids. I guess I read that, and I just was very grateful, because none of my kids are dechurched. But I mean, certainly, wow, we felt like we have been in a war for their soul at different times within their lives. And just, by the grace of God, I think, have seen them embrace faith. But there are a lot of things in here that remind me of the situation that we’re in. I mean, this between parents and their children. And of

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/WuE4Gfre8b8 Why is church after church succumbing to corruption and false doctrine? Yes, it’s the result of greed, immorality, and a lust for power. But we’ve had those vices forever. So, why is there an epidemic of corruption in the church now? Author, pastor, and church planter, Lance Ford, who’s worked inside pastor training networks for decades, answers that question with a line reminiscent of Bill Clinton’s first presidential campaign motto: “It’s the system, stupid.” Lance explains more in this enlightening edition of The Roys Report, featuring his session from our recent Restore Conference. Lance says the system of leadership that’s been imported into the church from corporate America is what’s producing our abysmal results. This system has been wholesale embraced by Christians, but there’s nothing biblical about it. It’s what Jesus called the way of the Gentiles. And unless we start to dismantle this godless system and replace it with a godly one, the church will continue to be plagued by scandals and spiritual abuse. Over decades, Lance has identified the toxic leadership models that have been imported into the church and he’s sought a different path. As one who has designed unique training systems being used by networks, seminaries, and leaders throughout the world, he is speaking from a heart of love for pastors and the church. This is an extremely illuminating talk, essential for anyone who cares about the health of the church and the proper care of those in it. Guests Lance Ford Lance Ford is an author, church planter, coach, and consultant who has designed unique training systems currently being used by networks, seminaries, and leaders throughout the world. He has written several books including UnLeader, The Missional Quest, and The Starfish and the Spirit. His next book, The Atlas Factor, will be released in February. Lance holds a master’s degree in Global Leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary. Learn more at LanceFordBooks.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS LANCE FORD LANCE FORD  00:00 You know, I’m sure that a lot of the speakers will do this, and it’ll be appropriate. But I just really want to thank Julie and her team, not only for just putting this together but for the writers on staff. The hard, dangerous work that they do. Because let me tell you, if you’re a demon right now, in the church, these are some dangerous people. Okay? So, hell fears what we’re doing here. But I am convinced that what we have seen over the last few years, the exposures of leaders, and you know all the names, and many of you come from situations where the names behind your stories aren’t in the headlines. But make no mistake about it, the Holy Spirit is shaking that which can be shaken, so that things that can’t be shaken will remain. Okay? I am convinced that Aslan is on the move. And I’m convinced that Jesus is standing at the door knocking. And we probably heard that verse growing up a lot, how Jesus is standing knocking at the door of your heart. That’s not the context of that verse in Revelation three. He’s standing on the outside of the door of the church, knocking to get in. And the question should be asked, Why is he on the other side of the door? But I believe that we are in a moment, and we are in a time where the Lord is raising so many voices up to speak against this stuff. And not only to just expose it, but to truly bring restoration. Amen? To restore the church to the hands of Jesus into the headship of Jesus.   LANCE FORD  02:13 Some of you are old enough in here to remember Bill Clinton’s first presidential campaign. You remember James Carville? So, Carville ran the campaign, and he came up with this campaign slogan kind of by accident, because he had just posted it in the campaign headquarters for the workers to kind of stay focused. He knew that Clinton’s this guy from Arkansas and Arkansas wasn’t really taken that seriously. I’m from Texas, so I still don’t take Arkansas seriously. But, you know, this, I mean, you can’t become president from Arkansas. And nobody knew who Clinton was. And so there was an uphill battle, and Carville comes up with this little moniker that he thought, our best chance is if we can get the American people to focus on one bottom line. And how many of you remember what that moniker was? It’s the economy stupid. And that, really, Clinton ran on that, and he won. Now, as I have listened over the last few years, to so many podcasts, and blogs and stories, and read articles, I constantly find myself doing it this week, I was listening to a podcast. And I’ll hear myself out loud, say a little riff on James Carville’s, It’s the economy stupid. And I’ll hear the stories and I’ll go it’s the system stupid. It’s the system. And so, we have this system of leadership that has been imported straight into the church, that almost wholesale is received and accepted and run with, but few people question the system.   LANCE FORD  04:16 Edwards Deming said, every system is perfectly designed to produce the results it produces. So, when I hear so many of the leadership abuse stories, it should not surprise us. The system is perfectly designed to get the stuff that its getting. It’s a perfect garden to grow what is growing. The prevailing leadership systems in most churches of our day are not only not rooted in the words and the ways of Jesus in the epistles, they come from what Jesus called the ways of the Gentiles. What the Old Testament prophets would have called Babylonian or Egyptian. Just read Jeremiah in Ezekiel, and some of those prophets, and see some of the metaphors that they use that always flipped it back to Egyptian or Babylonian. Well, in the time of Jesus, when Jesus says the Gentiles, he’s speaking systemically, he’s speaking about a system. And so, over the last 30 to 35 years in particular, we have sewed to the wind, and we’re now reaping the whirlwind of the corrupt seeds of a false doctrine, and I’m going to call it that a doctrine of leadership. And see that’s the thing is, we don’t call it a doctrine. We don’t think about it as a doctrine, but make no mistake, it very much is a doctrine in the church today.   LANCE FORD  05:49 Now, you’ve already figured out Julie put me right behind sweet Ken. Thanks, Julie. So, it’s the typical, you already figured is good copy/bad cop, okay? And I don’t want to be a bad cop. I want to be nice. I want to be sweet. I don’t want to come across as a jerk. I spoke some of these types of things just a few years ago at a conference, and as I showed up to this particular conference, I was wondering, why did they invite me here? because they had me speak on leadership to a thousand Missouri pastors. And it was kind of like the experience for me, was kind of like Marty McFly on the stage when he was playing. And remember how the crowd just looked at him? That was my experience in Missouri to a thousand Missouri pastors. I was just glad to get out of there.   LANCE FORD  07:10 Ivan Illich was a Catholic priest and theologian, and he was asked what’s the most radical way to change a society? Is it through violent revolution? Or is it through gradual reform? And he said, If you want to change your culture, if you want to change society, you have to tell an alternative story. And so, what he was talking about is what sociologists and anthropologists would call a system story. Because every one of us, every one of us, every group, every tribe, every family has what we would call a system story. A system story is really your paradigm. It’s the way you see things. And the irony about a system story is it’s not necessarily what you believe at as far as core truths. It’s about habitual behavior. And it’s tied to deep seated narratives. And when we are looking at systems story of leadership, especially in groups, people tend to behave in the moment, according to a leadership system story that’s been imported into the church, not necessarily from what they believe the scriptures say. And so, the system story of a group will override even the claims of what they say they believe to be true. I mean, if you ever listened to any podcast or quotes from Mark Driscoll, one of his favorite monikers is, it’s all about Jesus. Exactly. Okay. Because he operates from a system story. He operates from a particular leadership system story. Jesus told the Pharisees; you nullify the Word of God by your traditions. He’s talking about their system story. He said, you search the scriptures daily, but you don’t come to me. Why? Because this particular system story overrides, it’s the way they look at things. And so your system story influences everything, especially in churches. Our system stories influence our vocabulary, the way we say things. How many of you grew up with this? I grew up in church and grew up in the South. You grew up with this.   LANCE FORD  10:00 That’s a demonic little nursery rhyme. Why? Because this ain’t the church, Jack. That’s not the church. That’s the church. The folks are the church, the church isn’t a place you go to. It’s not an event. It’s not a location. It’s a people. And so, when we start thinking that church is a place, we’ve immediately got the system wrong, because I love my grandpa, he used to always say, he didn’t call it the church, he call it the church house. Guy Ford had that right back in 1965. He had it right. It’s just a building. It’s a sheep shed. But these are system stories. Our system stories influence our power structures within the church. It influences the way that we look at accountability. And even though we read Scripture, we read the Scripture over and over throughout the New Testament, it really emphasizes a mutual submission, a mutual accountability. In most of these abusive, in all of these abusive leadership systems, they’ll say they have accountability. But the accountability only runs one way. It’s a one-way street. But that’s not the system story of

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/QiNJvzlFadw When faced with a scandal, organizations have a choice. They can engage in impression management strategies, designed to obscure the truth, and save their image. Or, they can take the road less traveled. They can humble themselves. They can listen. And they can admit the truth—to themselves and to others. In this edition of The Roys Report, researcher, author, and abuse survivor advocate, Wade Mullen, speaks on how to manage a crisis in a session from the recent Restore Conference. This is a topic Wade knows well. For his doctoral dissertation, Wade studied the responses of 50 evangelical organizations when faced with a crisis. Sadly, what he found is they all do basically the same thing! They engage in impression management and hire spin doctors. They strategically omit key information. They make ambiguous statements, tell half-truths, evade questions—and do whatever it takes to try to control the narrative. What’s tragic is that victims then get re-victimized. The public is deceived. And if the group gets away with it, they become emboldened and skilled manipulators. Prior to this week, our plan had been to release Wade’s compelling, in-depth talk in February. But, in light of what’s happening at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (IHOPKC), now seemed the right time. IHOPKC is facing allegations that its founder, Mike Bickle, sexually abused multiple women over several decades. And just this weekend, IHOPKC platformed Eric Volz of The David House Agency to manage its crisis. Sometimes, it’s hard to put your finger on what’s happening in these situations. But some light bulbs will likely go on as you listen to this talk. Guests Wade Mullen Wade Mullen, PhD, is a professor, researcher, and advocate working to help those trapped in the confusion and captivity that mark abusive situations. He is the author of Something’s Not Right: Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse and Freeing Yourself from Its Power (Tyndale House). He serves as an institutional response specialist with Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment, a leading nonprofit group. His website is WadeTMullen.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, WADE MULLEN Julie Roys  00:00 When faced with a scandal, organizations have a choice. They can engage in impression management strategies designed to obscure the truth and save their image. Or they can take the road less traveled. They can humble themselves, they can listen, and they can admit the truth to themselves and to others. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And what you’re about to hear is a talk from our recent RESTORE conference by researcher, author and advocate, Wade Mullen, on how to manage a crisis. This is a topic Wade knows well. For his doctoral dissertation, Wade studied the responses of 50 evangelical organizations when faced with a crisis. And sadly, what he found is that they all do basically the same thing. They engage in impression management. They strategically omit key information. They make ambiguous statements, tell half-truths, evade questions, and do whatever it takes to control the narrative and control how others think of them. And what’s tragic is that victims get re-victimized, the public is deceived. And if the group gets away with it, they become emboldened and skilled manipulators. I had planned to release Wade’s talk in a couple of months. But in light of what’s happening right now, at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, or IHOP, I thought now was the right time. If you’re not aware, IHOP is facing allegations that its founder, Mike Bickle, sexually abused multiple women over several decades. And just this weekend, IHOP brought in Eric Volz at the David House Agency to manage its crisis. Sometimes it’s hard to put your finger on what’s happening in these situations. But I think as you listen to Wade’s talk, some light bulbs will go on. And so, I’m very excited to share this talk with you.   Julie Roys  01:53 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Curt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go toBUYACAR123.COM. Now, here’s Wade Mullins, speaking at RESTORE 2023 on how to handle a crisis.   WADE MULLEN  03:04 It’s an honor to be here again, and to be a compassionate witness to one another’s stories and to stand in solidarity against abuse. I’m grateful to be here. Throughout college, I worked as a server, a waiter at an upscale restaurant, which, given how accident prone and clumsy I can be, probably wasn’t the best idea. But they hired me. And as a result, I created a number of crises for management to have to respond to. There was the time when I was carrying a tray full of drinks in one hand, which was always a risky kind of circus act for me. And I approached the table in the corner of the restaurant, and a man was sitting at the table with his back towards me. And I approached the table and one of those trays started wobbling, and a glass of cold ice water tipped over. And the way the tray was, it caused the water to go right down the back of his shirt. And to this day, I can picture him going, whew, that’s cold. He didn’t know what happened. So, I had to apologize. Management had to come out and figure out what to do. I believe the man went home to get changed. It was it was bad. Then there was the time I was walking to the dining room with another tray full of dishes and a ramekin just like a small cup of yellow mustard, fell off of the tray and landed on the floor at such an angle that the yellow mustard flung into the air and my eye is going toward what spilling, but I hear a woman say what the? And I look up and she had all that yellow mustard in the back of her hair. And she’s trying to figure out what just happened. But perhaps the worst, and there was many. But perhaps the worst was when I was trying to keep one of those trays full of drinks straight again. You see, I should have learned my lesson, and just avoided that altogether. When I got to the table, and a glass full of coke, dropped off the tray and entirely into a woman’s purse. She gasped. And to this day, I remember her saying, looking in her purse and saying my purse is flooded. So again, I had to apologize, management had to come out, offer to pay what was ruined. comp the meal in all these cases. It wasn’t good.   WADE MULLEN  06:00 A crisis is when the unexpected happens, usually at a speed you can’t keep up with, and results in some kind of undesirable negative impact. And there are often four components of a crisis. The first is an event that’s unexpected, which can make it difficult to prepare for, so nobody brings an extra shirt with them to a restaurant in case the server drops a glass of water on them. Second, there’s a high impact on numerous people, which usually cannot be easily assessed. So, when I spill a drink on someone as a server, there’s the direct impact on the person who got something spilled on them. There’s the impact on those who are trying to share a peaceful meal together. There’s the impact on me the server, perhaps on my trustworthiness as a server. There’s the impact on management and perhaps on the restaurant. Third, there’s a loss of control as events happen too fast to manage. So, there’s initial reactions, which might be shock or confusion. There’s a time in which people are trying to figure out what is happening and how do we respond. So, it can all seem like a blur. And then lastly, fourthly, if not handled well, and I know  many of us have experienced this. When not handled well, the response to the crisis can generate additional losses, additional pain, additional conflict, potential abuses. So, what if after I dropped the Coke into the woman’s purse, I became upset and blamed the woman for having her purse on the table? I did not do that. But had I or if management didn’t offer to pay what was damaged, a wrong response can add insult to injury and create additional crises. And there are different types of crises. So, these are examples of accidents that I’ve provided, but there are crises that are a result of natural disasters or emergencies. There are crises that companies face when technology or product fails like a like a data breach. Then there are crises that are commonly referred to as scandals because they involve typically reports of some kind of leadership failure, misconduct or abuse that undermines public trust. And this is what I want to focus on.   WADE MULLEN  06:02 In 2015, I set out to complete a PhD dissertation on how evangelical organizations use what are called impression management strategies to respond to a crisis. Or to be more precise, a particular type of crisis called an image threatening event. And at this point, I don’t need to convince you that the evangelical landscape is filled with these types of crises. I want to talk about how leadership can respond well in the midst of a crisis of this nature. And I’m going to begin with some common responses to crisis that should be avoided, then give some principles for responding well, and end with an e

Guest Bios Show Transcript How did loving your enemies—a command of Jesus—suddenly become a sign that you’re “woke”? And why is “owning the libs” now the answer to “What would Jesus do?”  On this edition of The Roys Report, bestselling author and journalist Tim Alberta joins host Julie Roys to explore a disturbing phenomenon in American evangelicalism. Though once evangelicals understood that the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of man were separate, now the two are being combined into an unholy mix. And sadly, for millions of conservative Christians, America is their kingdom—and proper adherence to their political ideology is their litmus test for Christian orthodoxy! On this podcast, you’ll hear Julie’s compelling conversation with Tim, exploring how evangelicals got into this mess—and if, and how, we can get ourselves out. Yet Tim doesn’t speak as an outside critic passing judgment, but as a practicing Christian and the son of an evangelical pastor.  Tim spent years sifting through the wreckage of American evangelicalism, interviewing pastors, evangelical/political activists, congregants, and scholars. The result is his new book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory, which tells story after illuminating story of major players and institutions within the evangelical movement that have succumbed to political idolatry.  One example is Liberty University, founded in 1971 by Jerry Falwell Sr. Recent headlines have exposed how Senior’s now-disgraced son, Jerry Falwell, Jr., made Liberty into a far-right, culture warring, money-making powerhouse. But is this mixing of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of man a corruption of Senior’s vision—or, is it the culmination of it? And what does it say that everyone—the administration, board, and Liberty supporters—were all fine with it, as long as the money was coming in?  Tim also shares stunning admissions he got during one-on-one interviews with major evangelical/political figures, like Robert Jeffress and Ralph Reed. In private, these men confessed that they know mixing political advocacy with the gospel is misleading and wrong. Yet, as Tim documents, these men keep doing it! Yet Tim also offers stories of hope—like his chapter on Rev. Dr. John Dickson, who teaches at the flagship evangelical school, Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill. In it, Tim explains why Dickson has become a missionary to America—and how Christians can lose the culture wars yet live joyfully and winsomely among unbelievers. Tim’s book also includes a chapter on exposing abuse and corruption, featuring Rachel Denhollander’s work and our work at The Roys Report. On the podcast, we discuss why our reporting is so important and why this chapter is Tim’s mother’s favorite! This is such an important podcast for Christians wanting to remain true to their calling to worship God first and foremost, rather than succumb to political idolatry.    Guests Tim Alberta Tim Alberta is a staff writer for The Atlantic and has written for dozens of other publications, including the Wall Street Journal and National Review. He is the author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism and the New York Times bestseller American Carnage: On the Front Lines of the Republican Civil War and the Rise of President Trump. He lives in southeast Michigan with his wife and three sons. Show Transcript SPEAKERS TIM ALBERTA, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04 How did loving your enemies, a command of Jesus, suddenly become a sign that you’re woke? And why is owning the libs now the answer to what would Jesus do? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys and joining me on this podcast is New York Times bestselling author Tim Alberta, whose latest book explores what happened to American evangelicalism. Decades ago, Americans viewed evangelicalism favorably. In 1976, author and historian Gary Wills called evangelicalism, the major religious force in America, both in numbers and an impact. And leading evangelical thinkers claimed that evangelicalism could no longer be regarded as reactionary but was vigorously and sometimes creatively speaking to the needs of the contemporary world. Fast forward to today and evangelicalism has become synonymous with Donald Trump, a thrice married vulgar opportunist who said he doesn’t need to repent or ask for forgiveness. A recent poll by Pew Research found that the only religious group that views evangelicals favorably are evangelicals. And as Tim Alberta notes in his book in 1991 90% of Americans identified as Christians, but today, only 63% do. What happened to this once vibrant movement? And can it be saved, or has it passed beyond the point of no return? Un his new book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory. Tim Alberta does a masterful job of exploring these questions, but he doesn’t do it as an outside critic passing judgment. But as a practicing Christian and the son of an evangelical pastor. I found Tim’s book eye opening on many levels, and I’m so excited to share this interview with you.   Julie Roys  01:47 But before I do, I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity, to check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:51 Well, again, joining me is Tim Alberta, a staff writer for The Atlantic and the former chief political correspondent for Politico. Tim also is the author of The New York Times best seller American Carnage on the Frontlines of the Republican Civil War, and the Rise of President Trump. And his latest book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory, explores American evangelicals in an age of extremism. So, Tim, welcome. It is just such a pleasure to be with you again.   TIM ALBERTA  03:16 Yes, Julie, it is. It’s great to catch up with you and come sort of full circle from where we were a couple of years ago talking about all of this.   Julie Roys  03:24 That’s right. We spent a couple of well, more than a couple of hours. I think it was supposed to be like maybe an hour and a half, and we got so into our discussion. I think we closed down one coffee shop and went to another.   TIM ALBERTA  03:35 We did. I hijacked your whole day.   Julie Roys  03:38 Oh, it was fantastic. And so, encouraging to me, but always fun to talk to a fellow journalist with similar convictions. And I was excited about this book when we had our discussion. I’m so honored, I have to say, you know, to get the galley of the book, and I figured because we spent so much time that I’d be in it, but you know, just what you wrote, and the way that you captured some things just so honored to be featured in a chapter with Rachel den Hollander. So, thank you so much for that. I just really appreciate it.   TIM ALBERTA  04:07 I should tell you that is my mother’s favorite chapter of the book. Oh, for what it’s worth, because she’s big into strong feminine Christian leadership. And so, she was particularly smitten with you and with Rachel. So, I thought you should know that.   Julie Roys  04:21 Oh, wow. Well, I’m honored. I really am. And I should mention that we are offering your book as a premium to anybody who gives $50 or more to The Roys Report in this month. Again, this is just a way that you’re able to support the work that we do, but also get this fantastic book. Just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE if you’re able to help us out and continue the work that we do, and also get what could be a great Christmas present for somebody or for yourself. So anyway, encourage you to do that. Well, Tim, as I mentioned in the open, you’re not writing this book as sort of an outsider critiquing evangelicalism. You grew up evangelical, your dad was an evangelical pastor. And oddly enough, it was at your dad’s funeral in 2019, that something sort of awakened you to the severity of what’s happening right now within evangelicalism. Tell us a bit about that story.   TIM ALBERTA  05:17 Yeah, so my dad, Reverend Richard Alberta, was an amazing, amazing guy. We were very close. And he had a pretty crazy come to Jesus story himself where he was actually kind of a hotshot New York finance guy. And my mom was kind of a hotshot, young journalist with ABC Radio. They lived in New York and my dad, despite having all of this worldly material success, just felt this emptiness. And he was an atheist. He grew up in an unbelieving home. And he, one day stumbled into this church in the Hudson Valley, and heard the gospel and he gave his life to Christ. And it was already a pretty dramatic conversion because he became completely unrecognizable to people around him, including my mom, who was not yet a Christian. Everybody who knew him just thought he was sort of losing it. Suddenly, he’s waking up at four in the morning to read his Bible and meditate in prayer for hours. And they’re all like, what is this guy doing? And then pretty soon after that, he feels the Lord calling him to ministry. And now they all think he’s like certifiable, right? You know, but he follows the Lord’s calling. And, you know, he and my mom who became a Christian, they sell all the possessions so he can go to seminary, and they basically they give

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/CaDhqixI0js Exposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Powerful figures doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit—attacking the messenger, rather than holding their leader accountable. This edition of The Roys Report features a very personal talk from Restore Conference founder and journalist, Julie Roys, delivered at the recent event this past October. It’s centered on one question: why continue reporting, advocating, and shining a light when doing so comes at such a high personal cost? Journalists like Julie often ask this question—and so do many abuse survivor advocates, whistleblowers, and allies. The work can be grueling, and the pay off at times seems minimal. But in this talk, Julie shares not just her own struggles, but also the convictions she’s gained over years of exposing abuse and corruption. If you’re struggling to keep fighting for truth and justice, this talk will not just encourage, but inspire you to keep going. Guests Julie Roys Julie Roys is a veteran investigative reporter and founder of The Roys Report. Julie previously hosted a national talk show on the Moody Radio Network, called Up for Debate. She also has worked as a TV reporter for a CBS affiliate in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and as a newswriter for WGN-TV and Fox 32 Chicago. Julie's work has also appeared in Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Federalist, and The Christian Post. She and her husband, Neal, live in the Chicago area and have three children and two grandchildren.  Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04 Exposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Those doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit, attacking the messenger rather than holding their leader accountable. So why continue reporting and advocating and shining a light? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And the question of why not quit is one of those questions I’ve asked myself repeatedly over the years. And I know it’s not one that just journalists ask; many abuse survivor advocates, whistleblowers and allies do too. The work can be grueling and the payoff at times can seem minimal, so why not quit? Why keep fighting Goliath when the odds continually seem stacked in our opponent’s favor?   Julie Roys  00:52 What you’re about to hear is a very personal talk I gave at the 2023 RESTORE conference. The past 18 months have been especially hard for me. And there have been times when I’ve struggled profoundly with whether I can stay in this work without it deforming my soul. If you’re a survivor, or whistleblower or an ally, or maybe all of the above, you’ve probably experienced some of the same struggles. You may be struggling today. In this talk. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I’m still processing a lot of this stuff myself. But what I do is share my journey and why ,despite the difficulties, which are many and real, I’m not quitting. You’ll hear my talk in just a minute.   Julie Roys  00:52 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Curt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:37 Well, again, here’s the talk I gave a RESTORE 2023 on why not quit? Well, at the first RESTORE conference in 2019, I announced from this stage that we were experiencing an unmistakable move of God to purify his church. James MacDonald had just been exposed as the bully and hypocrite that he was and removed from Harvest Bible Chapel. Bill Hybels was exposed as a sexual predator, and people were finally believing the women, and revelations about Jerry Falwell, Jr. were just beginning to come out. And then donors alleging fraud won a massive $37 million dollar settlement from Gospel for Asia. Clearly God was cleaning house right? And over the next few years, the revelations just kept coming. Jerry Falwell, Jr, resigned from Liberty University amid shocking allegations of sexual and financial misconduct. Ravi Zacharias was shown to be a serial sexual predator, and RZIM was shut down. Hillsong began to implode beginning with Carl Lentz and his sexual misconduct going all the way to Brian Houston, and his sexual misconduct. And then I reported probably the biggest investigation I’ve ever done. I reported on John MacArthur, the supposed greatest expositor of the 20th century, that he had a pattern of shaming abuse victims and protecting their abusers. With story after story after story, the evil infecting the evangelical industrial complex, was being exposed and routed out. And probably more than any other time in my life, I felt like I was right in the middle of this remarkable thing that God was doing. Well, then I experience the most virulent backlash I have ever experienced. An army of YouTubers loyal to John MacArthur just kept hitting. They couldn’t go after the facts of my stories, so they went after me. And I became the poster child of the angry feminist proponent of CRT, wokism –  it didn’t matter whether I adhere to any of these things. They republished it anyway. And John MacArthur, despite everything I’d reported on him, he didn’t get canceled. He went and spoke at the Getty’s Sing conference. At the G3 conference, the Puritans conference. Sure, his reputation has been tarnished a bit. But those loyal dug in.   Well, then some anonymous Twitter accounts loyal to John MacArthur found some objectionable content in a book that I wrote in 2017. And soon I wasn’t just facing backlash from John MacArthur and those loyal to him, but from my own tribe, and from the survivor community. And people were hurt, and they were confused. And like I said, yesterday, some of that criticism was valid and deserved, and I didn’t get the power differential and someone a relationship with somebody that had been in a ministry that I had led, and that was my own responsibility. And I had assigned fault where it didn’t belong, where I should have taken responsibility. But some of the criticism was cruel. And it was patently false. And it was shockingly personal. And if you’ve never been in the midst of a public controversy like that, it’s kind of hard to explain. But it is a unique kind of awful. At least when you’re a private person and people talk about you, they have the decency to do it behind your back. But when you’re a public person, they do it in front of your family and your children and your friends and thousands and thousands of other people. And it was traumatic for me, I know it was even traumatic for some of you. And then perhaps smelling blood in the water, Protestia, a so-called discernment blog, lacking hardly any journalistic integrity, announced that they had a story that was going to expose me as a fraud. And on a Friday, they tweeted, were blocked but someone tag at reached Julie Roys, and give her a heads up in our next article about her revealing some of her shenanigans is really, really gonna sting. And then they published this video:   07:05 I said at the very at the very beginning, that we have some more information coming out about Julie Roys that I’m hoping to have out to you by Monday but suffice it to say it’s going to blow up the facade of Julie Roys as an ethical investigative journalist. We have some information about some very unethical, I would say immoral, but certainly unethical., things that Julie Roys has been caught saying and doing and promoting that we’re going to be releasing this information, hopefully by Monday. So, stay tuned to Protestia.com for that information. I want to thank you all again for joining me tonight on this live stream.   Julie Roys  08:06 So that came out on a Friday, so I had the whole weekend. I’m on pins and needles a whole weekend and I’m like what awful thing did I just do? I have no idea what I just did. So, I’m waiting for this to come out and on Monday Protestia published this menacing tweet. Apparently the story had been delayed a day. But will come out the next morning. Yet on Tuesday instead of publishing their big expose on me Protestia had to publish a retraction saying they almost got conned by an abuse survivor. Of course, they’ve got conned because they went forward with all of these allegations on Friday. Apparently a woman had fabricated some emails that she said were from me. And in these emails, I allegedly said that she should go forward with 300 allegations against a well-known Christian figure whether they were true or false. And sadly, Protestia didn’t do the very basics, the number one thing that you do when someone’s accused, is you go to the accused, and you ask for their side of the story. They didn’t do that until Tuesday, when they started to recognize some things might be going wrong. And they had accepted these fabricated emails as fact for about three days and went forward with those, again, libelous, and slanderous allegations,. The experience was unnerving, especially in the middle of what I was dealing with. But it wasn’t the last hoax I faced either. Someone close to James McDonald came after m