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https://youtu.be/5I3m2AAHjAY

Christian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States. But is this movement really Christian? And is it possible to engage with a Christian nationalist in a disarming way that doesn’t end up in a fight?

On this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys engages in a lively dialogue with Caleb Campbell—a one-time skinhead who became a Christian and then a pastor. And for the last 18 years, Caleb has been ministering in Phoenix—a hotbed of Christian nationalist fervor.

Caleb shares candidly how Christian nationalism divided his church and left him so wounded, he had to take a months-long sabbatical. But he says God used this experience to soften his heart and motivate him to reach those ensnared by a powerful, growing movement.

Drawing from his own experience leading congregants at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix—and his just-published book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor—Caleb provides a pastor’s primer on Christian nationalism.

How do you define this ideology? What are the concerns and potential harms, from both a pastoral and constitutional perspective? And what are some conversational approaches to disarm people who may be ensnared by it?

During a contentious election year, this topic is a minefield—with critics waiting to pounce. This thoughtful and compassionate dialogue will help you navigate this minefield and love those with whom you disagree.

Guests

Caleb Campbell

Caleb Campbell has been a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, since 2006 and lead pastor since 2015. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and a graduate of Phoenix Seminary. He serves as regional director for the Surge Network, an equipping and church planting organization. He is a co-founder of the J29 Coalition and the founder of Disarming Leviathan. His first book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, was published in 2024. He lives in Phoenix with his wife and children.

Show Transcript

[00:00:00 ] Julie Roys: Christian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States, but is this movement really Christian? And is it possible to engage with a Christian nationalist in a disarming way that doesn’t end up in a fight? Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church.

[00:00:21 ] Julie Roys: I’m Julie Roys, and joining me today is Caleb Campbell, a one-time skinhead, who became a Christian. And for the last 18 years, Caleb has been pastoring a church in Phoenix, Arizona, a hotbed of Christian nationalists fervor. On this podcast, you’ll hear how Christian nationalism divided Caleb’s church and left him so wounded he had to take a sabbatical.

[00:00:42 ] Julie Roys: But you’ll also hear how God used this experience to soften Caleb’s heart and to motivate him to learn more about this movement and how to reach those ensnared by it. And if you’ve struggled to know what to think about Christian nationalism or how to engage with your Christian nationalist friends and family, you’re really going to benefit from this podcast.

[00:01:00 ] Julie Roys: I’ll get to my interview with Caleb in just a moment, but first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The Restore Conference. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church.

[00:01:23 ] Julie Roys: But The Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more.

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[00:02:16 ] Julie Roys: Again, joining me today is Caleb Campbell, pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona. He’s also a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary, and he’s the regional director of the Surge Network, an equipping and church planting organization there in the Phoenix area. He’s also the author of Disarming Leviathan, Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Caleb, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you join me.

[00:02:41 ] Caleb Campbell: It’s my pleasure to be with you.

[00:02:43 ] Julie Roys: And it’s not very often that I get to meet my podcast guests in person, but I was able to do that when I was in Phoenix enjoyed lunch with you. And I thought we’d be there for maybe an hour. And we were there the whole afternoon talking, just had such a great conversation. So many fascinating things, hearing about your background and also about your insights into Christian nationalism. So so good. And I’m so excited that you’re going to join us for The Restore Conference there in Phoenix in February. That’s going to be awesome to have you there. And I should mention that your book, Disarming Leviathan, is our premium for the month of August.

[00:03:18 ] Julie Roys: So anybody who gives a gift of $30 or more to The Roy’s report will receive a copy of your book. So if you’re interested folks and getting that just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. So Caleb, one of the things that you mentioned when we were having lunch and you mentioned it briefly in your book, but I just thought it was so fascinating, is your background because you actually were a skinhead and now you’ve been a pastor for many years. How does someone go from being a skinhead to being a pastor of a church in Phoenix?

[00:03:53 ] Caleb Campbell: Yeah. That doesn’t seem to be the common track towards lead pastor, but it was that way for me. So I was raised in a politically and religiously conservative home. A lot of what I perceived religion to be about, especially the church we were part of, was about what you’re not supposed to do and being unstained from the world, which meant no drinking, smoking, no rated R movies.

[00:04:18 ] Caleb Campbell: And I remember as a kid,  junior high age, just seeing people’s behavior Monday through Saturday and then hearing the stuff on Sunday and thinking this stuff is not integrated. And so I, for a variety of reasons, just stopped going as much as I could. I’d get dragged every now and again, but it was just giving up on faith and not really interested in it.

[00:04:39 ] Caleb Campbell: And in high school, kind of sophomore, junior year, fell in with a group of neo-Nazi skinheads and found myself in that movement, shaved my head, the whole deal. And I didn’t go to college after high school, but after I had graduated in that season, 18, 19 started asking myself where are all the wealthy, successful retired skinheads?

[00:05:01 ] Caleb Campbell: So the ideology is white supremacy, and the neo-Nazi skinhead argument was white people are the master race and we’re going to protect each other. And we’re going to protect a future for white children. So we’re going to have each other’s back because we’re going to be successful and we’re going to be awesome.

[00:05:19 ] Caleb Campbell: And I remember looking around and be like the life path that my fellow peers, it doesn’t seem like it’s ending with success. And so what was being said and what was actually happening wasn’t integrated. And so I started just disentangling myself, not only from the thinking, but also from the community and was just floating, looking for core needs of safety, belonging and purpose.

[00:05:46 ] Caleb Campbell: And I was a drummer in a band, and we had an ad in the Phoenix New Times classifieds. This is back when you would put stuff on a piece of paper, a newspaper trying to connect with people, the dark ages. Yeah, way back then. And a woman from Desert Springs Bible church was dialing drummers and had called me and said, would you come play the drums at our church?

[00:06:09 ] Caleb Campbell: And so I did. And I remember thinking, I should do good stuff for God. Cause I still had a sense that God existed, and I got in the Rolodex. I got on the rotation. I should say. We don’t do Rolodex anymore. Got on the rotation and called me back a month later, eventually just started playing in one of the bands and a member, a couple in the band started inviting me over to their home, and over the course of about a year, through conversations and they didn’t tell me this, but they were discipling me. I found myself following Jesus and now I am the lead pastor at that church.

[00:06:46 ] Julie Roys: Wow. What a story. And I think there’s so much in your background, that u