Welcome everybody. It’s the 5th of April 2024, but you’re listening to this Citizen D podcast episode on the 15th of April same year with us today is Mark Dempsy, Senior EU advocacy officer for Global Free Speech organization, Article 19.

Prior to Article 19, Mark consulted for the European Commission on the project focused on data protection laws and in non-EU countries, and even before that, Mark, you’ve worked in the financial sector. Is that right?

00:00:39 Mark Dempsey / Article 19

Yeah, correct. Correct. Yeah.

00:00:41 Domen Savič / Citizen D

Before we start our conversation, I just want to know what made you switch from the financial sector to digital rights, which one is worse?

00:00:53 Mark Dempsey / Article 19

Which one is worse is a funny way of putting it. So, I worked for a long time in development, finance, and then regulatory finance. And I was an EU policy advisor for the Financial Conduct Authority in London, where I would go to Brussels, and I’d sit in Council working groups discussing nascent proposed legislative proposals from the Commission and I think really what made me make the move is an awareness of the growing encroachment of big tech on our lives and the controlling of the narratives.

Not just in the sort of public space perspective, but also commercially and the reliance of so many businesses like Amazon, Google, etcetera controlled the various data flows and the commercial relationship?

So it was, it was the encroachment of big tech in our lives. But it was also the realization that there was there was an extent of regulatory capture in finance, which was never going to change.

And I think coming from Ireland, seeing the financial crisis and the way taxpayers have basically footed the whole bill, no one in the US went to jail, there is still this aura of invincibility around finance and I just became, I think, quite disillusioned really and it was very hard to see the tangible effects of regulation to people on the street, and I felt that digital rights was more of an area where I could make more of a difference, so I took the time out to go to Hertie and to do a masters.

And I was lucky to work closely with Joanna Bryson, who has this unique view as a technologist, where she looks at society and the human rights impact and the digital rights that come attached to it. So, I think though she was a bit of an inspiration.

I’m sure she’d like it; she’d be heartened to hear that. And then, of course, there was such a huge avalanche, as you say, of regulation in the EU and it felt like a very good moment to be involved, even if I did come in a little bit late. When I came into the DMA/DSA in terms in terms of their negotiations were being finalized as I joined Article 19, but the GDPR, of course was a good experience with them. The Commission was a good learning experience and set me up nicely for the Article 19 role.

And where of course I came straight into the European Media Freedom Act, which was in the middle of negotiations, which in itself is a is a fascinating piece of legislation which we can talk about later.

00:03:32 Domen Savič / Citizen D

Sure. Because my next question would be exactly that, right. So, the EU Commission mandate is wrapping up, they’ve done a ton of work in terms of regulatory proposals or regulatory laws in terms of digital rights.

You’ve mentioned in the DSA the DMA, the European Media Freedom Act previously the GDPR. Is this the right way or are we heading in the right direction with these proposals or with these laws that are that are, as you’ve mentioned, focusing on big tech on, on intermediaries, on everything that’s happening in, in the, in the digital world right now?

00:04:12 Mark Dempsey / Article 19

I mean, I don’t know whether I’m the right person to ask. That question is is in itself questionable. I think the EU can be commended for making the first move and I know that they sometimes get criticized as being mainly regulatory cage, so to speak, and that they seem to specialize more in regulation. But that’s because they do have this immense capacity of civil servants within the Commission.

If we’re going in the right direction, it’s too early to tell. I mean what is disappointing is that the process of agreeing proposals ultimately at the end of the trilogue is still very non-transparent, and I think with the EMFA, with the DSA probably less so the DMA, there were agreements made, or at least there were. There were positions for justice by the Council at the end, which undermines the initial legislative proposals, so I think that process is simply, it shouldn’t be tenable anymore, but I think it probably will be because I don’t see any changes happening.

So we are dependent very much on a strong Parliament, and you’re very dependent on having your champions in Parliament to push the civil rights aspects of any legislation. But if you don’t have those people, they go into the rapporteur, for example, I, the person who oversees the file, if they go into final negotiations and they’re not particularly, how do you say, favorable towards civil civil rights, then our position is severely weakened.

So I think the proof will be in the pudding in terms of enforcement, I mean again, and I know for some they’ve heard this ad nauseam, but this all lies in the enforcement and particularly with these new legislative pieces that have come in.

There are mechanisms which gives the EU a strong regulatory position, so they are going to be regulators for DSA/DMA, AI act and we just have to see how that plays out.

I mean, the GDPR has been a lesson for the EU, I think they realized that. So, let’s see if they put the right resources work closely with civil society actors and that look, that will all happen in the next couple of years. And then it’s a case of understanding how all these pieces of legislation interact with each other.

I mean there could be unintended consequences, they’ll have to work very closely. The different units, like the G Connect to GG comp. The new AI office. They’ll have to work very closely together and coordinate and in a non-siloed fashion and I think the EU is not known for our coordinating well amongst different units. Things tend to be quite silent, so iit’s really up in the air as to whether as to where all this goes.

But I do go back to commending the EU for at least taking the step because, I mean the US, you don’t even have a federal privacy law, so I think certain states as we know like California,  they’ve learned from the GDPR and they’ve created their own strong privacy laws, but I think the EU is really being the first mover here, but I think they tend to love saying that and praise themselves. But we’re beyond that now, now it’s about whether they can actually enforce.

00:07:45 Domen Savič / Citizen D

OK, I’m going to, I’m going to flip the question and ask you a little bit differently, so, is there a a phenomena or is there a, let’s say a mistake in the field that should be corrected by these EU legislative regulatory frameworks?

And if they don’t do it, then it it will sort of signal that the regulatory framework has I guess I could say failed in in in its attempt?

00:08:20 Mark Dempsey / Article 19

Well, something that Article 19 is looking at is the concentration of market power, so if the DMA doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do then I think we will have an issue. You could say that that particular piece of legislation will have failed.

I mean the whole point of it is to create fair and contestable markets and that means ultimately as well opening up these platforms, and I think there are avenues within the legislation to do that.

But the Commission hasn’t mandated that so far yet.For example, if they were to open up recommender systems, for example, and allow third party recommended systems into your social media feeds, I think that would be something that would certainly disrupt the business models and provide the choice which the DMA proposes to do.

So, I think that there are ways for them to decide that something is not working and therefore we will have to make some fundamental changes to the business models to make sure that these markets are fairer, more open and more contestable.

But again, this all goes down to a certain level of political will and the second level of courageous leadership. Because if you look at the, if you look at the parallels of finance, tho