In this episode, Angus interviews Jenny Quillien, a scholar and consultant known for her work with Christopher Alexander. They discuss architecture, anthropology, and organizational culture, focusing on Alexander's ideas about living structures and the importance of land surveying in urban planning. The conversation delves into the spiritual aspects of building, the fundamental processes in design, and the cognitive psychology behind our experiences of space. Further discussion addresses the intersection of art, science, and philosophy, exploring themes of teleology, transformation, and the nature of creativity. In closing, they review the importance of making things whole, the role of personal authenticity in creation, and the epistemological approaches of Christopher Alexander. All of these things emphasize the significance of self-reflection in evaluating art and life, and the need for experimentation in understanding and applying Alexander's principles.