An economist's vision of economic growth -- with less destruction
1Digest
This podcast delves into the complexities of economic growth and its impact on society and the environment. It begins by examining the historical context of GDP growth, highlighting its rise to prominence during the Cold War and its subsequent obsession in modern society. The podcast then explores the moral limitations of GDP, arguing that it fails to capture essential aspects of human well-being, such as social equity, environmental sustainability, and overall quality of life. The podcast introduces the degrowth movement, which advocates for a planned reduction in economic activity to address the environmental and social problems associated with continuous growth. It discusses the arguments for and against degrowth, including the potential consequences of a stagnant or declining GDP. The podcast also explores the potential for a more sustainable and equitable form of growth, suggesting that we need to move beyond simply tinkering with GDP and engage in broader discussions about what we value as societies. It emphasizes the importance of citizen participation in decision-making and the use of innovative political institutions like citizen assemblies. The podcast concludes by discussing the implications of GDP minimalism for developing countries, arguing that they should not simply adopt the same GDP-centric approach as developed countries. It emphasizes the importance of engaging citizens in discussions about what they value and of prioritizing sustainable and equitable development.
Outlines
The State of Our Economy and the Obsession with GDP Growth
This episode begins by discussing the state of the US economy and the importance of GDP growth. The host introduces the guest, Daniel Suskind, an economics professor who has written a book about the history and consequences of GDP growth. Suskind argues that our obsession with GDP growth is a relatively recent phenomenon and that it has come at a cost, including the climate crisis, resource wars, and rampant inequality.
The Cold War and the Rise of GDP as a Measure of Power
This episode explores the role of the Cold War in solidifying GDP as a key measure of national power. The host and guest discuss how the US and Soviet Union used GDP growth as a proxy for winning the Cold War, leading to a period of intense "growthmanship."
The Moral Limits of GDP and the Kennedy Brothers' Views
This episode delves into the moral limitations of GDP, highlighting the arguments of Robert F. Kennedy, who criticized GDP for failing to measure what truly makes life worthwhile. The host and guest discuss the two main criticisms of GDP: its technical limitations and its moral limitations.
The Degrowth Movement and the Dilemma of Growth
This episode introduces the degrowth movement, which advocates for slowing or reversing economic growth to address environmental and social problems. The host and guest discuss the arguments for and against degrowth, including the potential consequences of a stagnant or declining GDP.
Can We Tinker with GDP to Achieve Less Destructive Growth?
This episode challenges Suskind's assertion that tinkering with GDP is not a solution to the growth dilemma. The host proposes adding measures like life expectancy, savings, and carbon emissions to GDP, arguing that it could provide a more comprehensive picture of national well-being.
The Moral Questions of What We Should Count
This episode argues that the question of what we should count in GDP is a moral one that should be debated in politics, not left to technical experts. It emphasizes the importance of citizen participation in these discussions and highlights the potential of citizen assemblies to address complex trade-offs.
The Intertwined Nature of Economics and Politics
This episode challenges Suskind's suggestion that economics and politics are separate, arguing that in the US, capitalism is both an economic and political system. The host questions how we can separate these two spheres when making decisions about national well-being.
Keywords
GDP Minimalism
A philosophy advocating for a narrower definition and use of GDP, focusing solely on measuring market-based economic activity and avoiding the inclusion of other factors like social well-being or environmental impact.
Degrowth Movement
A social and economic movement advocating for a planned reduction in economic activity to address environmental and social problems associated with continuous growth.
Citizen Assemblies
A form of participatory democracy where randomly selected citizens are brought together to deliberate on specific issues and provide recommendations to policymakers.
Growthmanship
A competitive pursuit of economic growth, often driven by national pride or geopolitical rivalry, as seen during the Cold War.
Gross Domestic Product (GDP)
A standard measure of a country's economic output, calculated by adding the total value of goods and services produced within a specific period.
Sustainable Growth
Economic growth that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs, considering environmental, social, and economic factors.
Climate Crisis
A global environmental challenge characterized by rising temperatures, extreme weather events, and other consequences of human-induced climate change.
Inequality
The uneven distribution of resources, opportunities, and power within a society, leading to disparities in wealth, income, and access to essential services.
Q&A
What are the main arguments against the degrowth movement?
Critics of degrowth argue that it would lead to economic stagnation, poverty, and a decline in living standards. They also question the feasibility of reversing economic growth and the potential consequences for global development.
How can we achieve a more sustainable and equitable form of growth?
Suskind suggests that we need to move beyond simply tinkering with GDP and engage in broader discussions about what we value as societies. He advocates for greater citizen participation in decision-making and the use of innovative political institutions like citizen assemblies.
What is the role of nuclear energy in a sustainable future?
Nuclear energy is a controversial topic, but Suskind argues that it is necessary to consider its potential role in addressing climate change. He highlights the example of Korea, where a citizen assembly helped to create political space for a shift in energy policy.
How can we address the intertwined nature of economics and politics in the US?
The host raises the challenge of separating economics and politics in the US, where capitalism is deeply embedded in both spheres. Suskind suggests that we need to find ways to empower citizens to participate in decision-making and to hold politicians accountable for their choices.
What are the implications of GDP minimalism for developing countries?
Suskind argues that developing countries should not simply adopt the same GDP-centric approach as developed countries. He emphasizes the importance of engaging citizens in discussions about what they value and of prioritizing sustainable and equitable development.
Show Notes
The world’s focus on growth - also known as GDP - has led to higher living standards, longer life and more jobs. But it has also destroyed the climate and created mass inequality.
Economist Daniel Susskind argues that what we need isn’t less growth, but less destructive growth. Is that possible?
Table of contents
United States
