Clayton Lengel‑Zigich: Welcome to another episode of the Agile Weekly Podcast. I’m Clayton Lengel‑Zigich…

Roy VandeWater: I’m Roy vandeWater…

Jade: I’m Jade Meskill…

Derek Neighbors: I’m Derek Neighbors…

Jim McCarthy: I am Jim McCarthy. You got me in here.

[laughter]

Jade: We found this guy…

Jim: A major breakdown in their standards has occurred.

[laughter]

Jade: …stumbling down the street, away from shelter.

Clayton: It’s like the Hotel California. You may enter, but you may never leave.

Jim: This is my second time to Chandler. There’s been no trips up to Crystal Lake. I can see that the mass of things…It’s pretty cool down here. Actually, it’s pretty hot. But it’s a pretty cool place to be. I’ve got to admit. So, I’m glad I’m here.

Roy: That’s good.

Clayton: We’re glad to have you.

Jim: I’m going to get you up to Crystal Lake. We’re going to do the pod cast up there, too.

How Important Is Prioritizing Presence Over Planning

Clayton: Today we wanted to talk about presence over planning. Presence is more important than planning?

Jim: I’m willing to talk about that. I was just suggesting that as the basis of our starting this podcast.

Clayton: That seemed like a really good idea. I figure we should talk about it.

Jade: We are present, and there’s been no planning. What a better opportunity?

[laughter]

Jim: [inaudible 01:21 ] could pretend there was planning. We’re doing a boot camp right now. We’re in the first part of the boot camp and it’s just starting to get rich. I get off when they start to get off. I’m excited, enthused, and happy and I’m in.

Jade: Welcome.

Clayton Welcome

Roy: Welcome

Jim: It’s beautiful to watch.

Jade: That’s awesome. Much better than yesterday. That’s for sure.

Jim: It’s amazing how a little bit of time and persistent focus from their boss makes a big difference.

What’s The Trouble With Planning

Clayton: What’s the trouble with planning?

Jim: It’s just fictional. It’s like science fiction. You could write a good science fiction book. That’s something to do about [inaudible 02:12 ] that’s basically a plan. I have always found, especially when it comes to talking, that your presence will trump your planning every day of the week.

I’m in this room. We got four high end or nice microphones. We’ve got a mixer. We got four men, plus me. Whatever that means.

[laughter]

Jim: I’m looking from my perspective, there’s four men here. Anyway and we are going to talk because we are getting to be friends and its probably going to be interesting cause we are in the middle of this interesting experience. So, that’s what I meant by our presence would probably trump…

Jade: Uh, I’ve definitely been in planning meetings where there is no presence…

[Others agree]

Jade: … those are really terrible…

Clayton: It’s going through the motions, but, uh, half the people are thinking about …

Jade: …they are just doing work, or…

Clayton: …yeah, they’re just trying to get through it.

Jade: And the results are usually very poor.

An Involved Team Is More Energized

Clayton: Yeah, I found that you can energize a team if you get everybody involved in what they are doing, which I think is getting towards having presence over planning, so that they actually feel like their physically there, they feel like their mentally there and they feel like they are actually in, you know, they are in to what’s going on.

That makes a bigger difference then any other game or gimmick or technique or whatever anything I would ever really use.

Roy: So it’s the specific value that we are trying to get out of both presence and planning. Like, we are saying presence over planning, but in terms of what?

Planning Is Not Doing

Derek: So to me, like, I almost think that planning is evil. It’s almost like discussion in the sense of, planning is not doing, right, if we are planning were not doing, we are planning.

People get bogged down in the, just like they get down in the perfection of doing, so they never ship. If you just do and never ship that’s a problem too. Well if you just plan and never do, that’s a problem. And I think that if, to me, if everybody is present, like really emotionally present and really wants to do great things, great things will happen by people that are present doing things.

Roy: So then…

Derek: …I think planning kills energy, like, I mean that…

Clayton: …as far as a formalized process of planning?

Derek: Yeah, like, lets not do anything, lets just sit and complain…

What’s Next Instead of What’s Now Mentality

Jim: …like ‘what are we going to do next?’ That’s what it’s all about. Instead of ‘what are we doing now?’

Derek: Right.

Clayton: If you look at the boot camp, the beginning of it, before people have any alignment whatsoever, and people aren’t really present, it’s all about planning like, ‘when are we going to do the next thing?’ and ‘when’s this going to happen?’ and all that stuff.

And then when the people become present, like Derek said they are kind of like emotionally in and invested in it, that I think that’s when the planning doesn’t feel important anymore. It just comes together…

Jade: …the facade falls away…

Clayton: ..yeah, like you don’t know how it happens, but it happens.

Roy: But you still need some kind of urgency, like, you need an urgency to achieve some goal. So, I feel like that’s a really light form of plan. Like, you have to be doing something. You can’t just put a group of people in a room together and say, ‘be great, whenever you get around to it’. [laughs]

Jim: …and whatever medium you choose, and, well sort of we are saying that in this thing, but…

Derek: …but we are giving them a timeline…

Jade: …right, they have been given a goal…

Jim: …given a goal by a boss and the boss hasn’t been relenting.

The Assignment Is More Important Than The Plan

Derek: To me, that’s absence of an assignment. A team needs an assignment. I don’t necessarily know if they need a plan.

Clayton: I’ve seen plenty of plans without an assignment.

Roy: That’s true.

Jim: I’ve seen a lot more plans than achievements. There are tons more plans than achievements, right?

Clayton: Yep.

Go Do It, Then I Will Talk About It

Jim: Michelle’s got this thing that usually annoys me, but she’s always right about it. If she wants to discuss that something that isn’t creative, it’s like, “Oh, I’m not going to talk about that user interface. Go do a user interface and then, we’ll look at it.”

But to talk about it as if it had merits of various sides of various arguments and treat it as if it were already done, she just refused to do it. It’s always good advice, so we have a fight.

Jade: Well, that’s real and you can fight over the…

Jim: It’s not what’s real, we can see the work. Opinions are like butt‑holes, everybody’s got one.

Jade: That is the ultimate expression though of having a highly iterative process, not an incremental process, but an iterative process where, “Let’s just create something. Get it out there. See if it actually does what we want it to do. Then, let’s talk about what it doesn’t do and let’s go make that happen.”

That’s where a lot of Agile teams get hung up is they focus on going through the motions of following that process instead of looking at the product that they’re creating. Ultimately, looking at themselves as the team being the ultimate product that’s been created.

It’s Not About Doing Agile, It’s About Doing Something Meaningful

Derek: I don’t know how many times we hear, “How can I measure that we’re doing Agile right?” It’s like, “Who cares if you’re doing Agile off, you’re not doing anything meaningful with it.”

Jade: Are you shipping? Are you delivering great products? Then, you’re doing it well.

[laughter]<