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Call Sign: Gold Flight
Update: 2024-11-08
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On episode 361, former NASA flight director Gerry Griffin discusses his trailblazing career in the agency and his experience leading multiple Apollo missions, including the final lunar landing on Apollo 17.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center,
00:00:05
Episode 361, Call Sign, Gold Flight. I'm Leah Chashire and I'll be your host today.
00:00:11
On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts,
00:00:15
all to let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight and more.
00:00:18
The foundations of human space exploration, as we know it today, were born at Johnson Space Center,
00:00:25
and it's one of the greatest honors to speak with some of the trailblazers who helped
00:00:29
open the skies to us forever. Today's guest is a one-of-a-kind NASA icon with experience
00:00:35
at all levels of the agency. Jerry Griffin started his career in the US Air Force, later joining NASA
00:00:42
in 1964 as a flight controller. He became a flight director where he led multiple Apollo missions,
00:00:48
including the final lunar landing on Apollo 17. He also served as Deputy Director of Kennedy Space
00:00:55
Center and Dryden Flight Research Center, now known as Armstrong. At NASA headquarters in Washington,
00:01:00
D.C., Jerry also held the posts of Assistant Administrator for Legislative Affairs,
00:01:06
Associate Administrator for External Relations, and Deputy Associate Administrator for Spaceflight.
00:01:12
He rounded out his NASA career by coming back to his home state of Texas and serving as the
00:01:17
center director of our very own Johnson Space Center. Let's get started.
00:01:42
Jerry, thank you so much for joining us today on Houston. We have a podcast. Glad to be here.
00:01:47
Yeah, it means a lot to have you just come out and sit down and talk about the good old days and
00:01:52
what you've been up to lately. Okay, so let's rewind a little bit. When you joined the Air Force,
00:02:00
did you have any idea that someday you might work for NASA? No, I didn't, and the reason was there
00:02:06
was no NASA. When I joined the Air Force, I had graduated from A&M in '56, got commissioned,
00:02:14
and got called Active Duty in late 1956. Well, I was in a fighter squadron out in California,
00:02:23
NASA got formed in '58, and officially became an agency in October of '58. I was still in the fighter
00:02:32
squadron, still had Active Duty left to go, but I thought, "Godly, they're going to the moon."
00:02:40
That's their purpose, I see. I wonder if I could get in there, but I couldn't right away. I had to
00:02:52
finish my obligation. But as soon as I could see the end of my Active Duty commitment, which was four
00:03:00
years, I started knocking on the door. This was tested. And, of course, they were at the time in the
00:03:09
middle of Mercury, and they were busier and heck. But I didn't talk to Cran's first time. I talked
00:03:18
to a fellow named Jim Tomberlin, who worked for Cran's, and then he said, "Hey, we like your background,
00:03:25
but hold on. We're just, we got to get through Mercury here right now." And so I bought it in my time.
00:03:33
I went ahead and got out when I could, so I could get into the business as quickly as I could. So,
00:03:41
I joined the Lockheed Martin. Well, it wasn't Lockheed Martin. It was Lockheed Missile in Space
00:03:47
in Sunnyvale, California, which was classified stuff, early, early spy satellites. But it used the
00:03:56
Agina as an upper stage on the Thor vehicle, which later became Delta. So I learned a lot about satellites.
00:04:07
Remember, too. I was an aeronautical engineer. I didn't know anything about how you did orbits and
00:04:14
how you adjusted them and that kind of thing. And so that was a good learning experience for me.
00:04:21
I kept knocking on the door. I accused Cran sometimes of low-balling me the first with the first
00:04:30
offer. And I thought I was worth more than that. I'm sure you were. But he finally turned it over
00:04:41
to a guy that needed an Agina person. Because we were going to dock the journey with an Agina
00:04:50
vehicle. And so a long story short, I finally took a break and came to work and got here in 1964.
00:05:00
So, with that background, you mentioned you're an aeronautical engineer. You have that degree.
00:05:04
And then you were in the military. Did you ever think about being an astronaut?
00:05:10
Yeah, I'm thinking about being an astronaut today. You should.
00:05:14
I'd like to. But realistically, in those days, and there was good reason for it, I think the powers
00:05:24
that be really, if you look at them, they were all test pilots. High performance aeroplanes,
00:05:30
one of a kind aeroplanes, first flight of one kind of an aeroplane. Very used to,
00:05:38
very used to high-risk kind of activities that involved new kinds of technology. So,
00:05:48
they were, hey, there was no way. And now, when I got into mission control, I went immediately.
00:05:57
I never worked on the Agina, because as I got there, they'd looked at my background and said,
00:06:02
we'd like to have you in Gemini and be a flight controller. So, that's what I became immediately.
00:06:10
And I never thought I'd be a flight director, even.
00:06:15
Really? No, I figured, well, they probably got a, you know, they got some good people in there,
00:06:22
like Cran's and eventually Loney, Charles Worth and John Hodge and Kraft for Hual and then he dropped
00:06:30
out. But, but Hual got moved up, he got moved up to the head of, we called it FOD then. And then I
00:06:39
think it went MOD in that way, back to FOD. But so anyway, we, it was a busy time. It was kind of quiet
00:06:50
here. And when I first got here, we were spread out all over Houston. The center wasn't quite
00:06:58
complete. So, I got here in some time like April or May. And I think we started moving in the
00:07:08
fall of '64. We started moving into the center, brand new, little bit of trees blended all over the
00:07:16
place. And now we got these huge trees. But it was, it was really exciting time for me because I'd
00:07:27
finally gotten to, to human space flight. And to me, that was what it was going to be about and
00:07:33
trying to get to the moon. Right. And you mentioned coming in at the end of Mercury. And as we're
00:07:39
getting into the Gemini program. And I know that being in between programs can be, it can come with
00:07:47
a lot of unknowns. So, what was that like? Was everybody really charging forward with Gemini,
00:07:53
were people nervous? What was that atmosphere? It, as I alluded to, it was kind of calm. Yeah.
00:08:00
And for one thing, the same contractor built the Gemini spacecraft, built the Mercury. Right.
00:08:08
McDonald. And they were kind of similar. The Gemini was was much more technologically advanced,
00:08:19
had fuel cells and things like that. But there was a similarity that I think made people a little bit
00:08:27
comfortable, maybe more comfortable. There was less comfort when we went to Apollo in a different
00:08:33
contract during a different kind of space spacecraft that had to go to the moon, not just Earth or
00:08:40
orbit. And so, it was, the one thing I noticed right away, it was very professional. It was fun.
00:08:49
We were all young. I was a little older than quite a few people because I had my military time.
00:08:56
But I was only, when I got here, I think, yeah, I was 29. Wow. And when I became a flight director,
00:09:06
later I was all of 33. But it was, it was, that's where I got my grounding. I was first up in,
00:09:17
in the Stahl Myers building, which later became a warehouse. It was up, up 45, almost to Houston.
00:09:27
And met some, some of the guys that went all of Gemini and most of Apollo. Then they made it through
00:09:36
most of Apollo. So, great people. And I'll throw in something here that I think is overlooked quite
00:09:46
often. What we did in that era of the 60s, particularly in, into the early 70s, we couldn't have
00:09:55
done it without the spouses. It was just incredible. They did the banking. They did fix an air conditioner.
00:10:02
They'd get them lawnmowers, mow it themselves. And they were wonderful. It took the load off of
00:10:10
of us that were trying to learn how to get to the moon and get them back. So, I really think,
00:10:21
quite often, our spouses never, never did get all of the, the adoration that they should have,
00:10:30
we knew it, but nobody else did. And I suspect that they, you know, military wives and
00:10:38
significant others had always probably been there for them. But this was kind of a new ballgame.
00:10:45
And we were learning, learning, learning all the time. So, you know, we didn't get to see many
00:10:52
little league games or brownie meetings or anything like that, even school activities. We didn't get
00:11:00
to see a lot of those. Yeah, I think everybody believed in the mission. Yep. Everybody knew how important it
00:11:06
was, not just for you all, you know, as you're trying to do something new, but for the world and for
00:11:12
America, particularly for the country. Yeah. And, and you're exactly right. It was, you know,
00:11:20
we never thought about it. I say we never. We didn't worry too much about the Soviet Union. We didn't
00:11:28
have time. Yeah, you're too busy working. Yeah, we had this little bit like football teams, you can't,
00:11:34
you can't worry about the other team. You got to make it on offense. You got to make sure you're,
00:11:39
you're doing what you're supposed to do. Right. And you just don't have time to say, well, you know,
00:11:44
that defense is to let the coaches do that. The players and the coaches in this case were somewhere
00:11:53
in Washington and they will let them worry about the Soviet Union. We're going to get there as fast
00:11:58
as we can, as safely as we can. Yeah. And it was a fairly simple mission. Nobody wavered from it.
00:12:06
Incredible. Yeah. I want to go back and I'm going to have to read this because your career to me,
00:12:12
I call it the tour of NASA in my mind. So you're didn't hold a job. Yeah. I don't know about that.
00:12:19
You're the deputy director at Kennedy, also at Armstrong. And then you became the center director
00:12:26
at JSC. It was the manned spacecraft center back then, correct? Yeah. No, it was already the Johnson,
00:12:32
I'm sorry, it was the episode of the Johnson Space Center by the time I came back because I got here
00:12:37
in '82. Oh, got it. Yes. Okay. You also had a lot of different roles at NASA headquarters. Yep.
00:12:43
So each of those, all of our centers are connected. We say we are one NASA, but each of them has
00:12:49
different programs, different challenges of their own. So what was it like having such a broad view
00:12:57
of NASA by working in all of those roles? What was challenging about that? What came easy because of
00:13:02
it? I would love to hear your perspective on that. I had grown up in the JSC culture. And it was
00:13:11
really all on you. Although I had visited other centers, but we were the people on the street.
00:13:26
One of the first things I found out is how strong all of the centers were, how good they were.
00:13:34
Kennedy, Marshall, Langley, Ian Lewis, and now Glenn, JPL, which is a contractor, but in good names,
00:13:46
and all the old flight research and all that. I think guys were good. They were all good. And I got
00:13:51
to work with all of them at headquarters. I got to know the center directors of these other centers.
00:13:57
The big thing I had to learn right away was how you deal with the Congress, because I was brand
00:14:05
new to that. Yeah. And we were trying to George Lowe, who by that time had become the deputy
00:14:15
administrator. And George, between George and Bill Anders, who was running the Space Council at
00:14:23
that time, former Apollo 8, as turnout, we recently lost in a blank crash. And by the way, Bill and I
00:14:32
were in that same fighter squadron before NASA. We were in the same fighter squadron. Oh my goodness.
00:14:37
Blue together and all that. We had no idea there would ever be a NASA or that he'd go to the moon
00:14:43
on Apollo 8. And actually, I stayed very, very good friends with him almost till the day he died.
00:14:51
But working with the Congress also took me, I ended up having to spend time with
00:15:00
George and I called on almost every congressman in the whole thing, all 535. We tried.
00:15:10
And we spoke to our, we were trying to save the shuttle because it almost got killed. Wow.
00:15:16
And they wanted somebody that understood the technical stuff, which I did. And they also wanted
00:15:24
somebody that could, this George said, I can put one word in front of another and make sense out of it.
00:15:30
So that's why I ended up there. But I had to start from scratch and I had these two wonderful
00:15:38
deputies. Both of them, one of them later became the head of the US patent office. He was an attorney.
00:15:45
And the other one became the head of CXX Railroad. Both of them were great guys. They knew the
00:15:54
hill inside and out. They took me to the right people. They taught me that the staff
00:16:00
is often just as important. Maybe more important than the member of Congress. You got to get to know
00:16:07
them and how to, how to work them a little bit. So it was a great learning experience. And I also learned
00:16:17
that not everybody had to say the same view of JSC as I did. I think there was, in those years,
00:16:27
of course we had the astronauts. We had mission control. Our part of the mission lasted days
00:16:36
to get to the moon back. The Kennedy job, for instance, always was huge. But it was over. It left off.
00:16:46
That's true. Yeah. And they went on to other, they had to go to the next, on to the next mission. So
00:16:53
they never got the ink they deserved. And Marshall didn't either, probably. At least they felt they
00:16:59
didn't. So I just stored that away that, you know, this is a great agency with a lot of strength.
00:17:07
And JSC is no doubt one of the best, maybe the best of them. But don't settle as other short.
00:17:15
Yeah. And that perspective when I became later became Senator Director was I worked on that.
00:17:24
I worked on that. Nice. Well, before all of this though, you were a flight director. You were
00:17:30
gold flight. Oh, yeah. I had to dress, dress for the occasion. So as a flight director though,
00:17:38
you're really much more ingrained in the day by day and the minute by minute action and technical
00:17:44
stuff. Yeah. What's it like to have to leave that behind kind of and see it from a bigger picture
00:17:50
when you're working in leadership? It was hard, but it was fun. Yeah. Because I have found throughout
00:17:57
my life that when you're learning is when I'm the happiest. And I still like to learn things.
00:18:04
Maybe we'll talk in a minute about the movies. Yes. Well, that was that was a new thing that I had to
00:18:11
learn how to cope with it. And in my opinion of it changed by the way, but I really think I think the
00:18:21
hardest thing to do and all of that is trying to engulf at all. Yeah. When I say that, I mean,
00:18:32
you not only have the Congress and the OMB and the White House and all that and then never had that
00:18:41
when I was a flight director. Flight director in those days, particularly, was a very
00:18:47
keep person in the control center and did all the final go-no goes with a lot of help.
00:18:52
Right. They didn't do it and I didn't do it on my own. But it took a lot of people to pull it off.
00:19:01
And do it right. The flight director job, if I look back at everything I did, and it was a great
00:19:10
honor to be the director here. But my favorite job was being a flight director and mission
00:19:16
control during Apollo. It was so challenging. And I tell people, you'll see pictures of us where we
00:19:26
look very worried and all that. Overall, it was a hoot. It was so much fun involved with it.
00:19:36
Very challenging. But everybody in that control center and most of the people around the whole network
00:19:45
of NASA, they like that challenge. That's what they were there for. And pushing back that barrier
00:19:55
to get to the moon was like, Ali, we can do this. And after we flew Apollo 8, particularly,
00:20:01
I think we all felt we may be able to pull us off. But of course, we hadn't done it yet.
00:20:09
So anyway, it was a big shot going from a technical, very much day-to-day operation to this.
00:20:19
It was day-to-day when I was in Washington, but golly, it was tiring. Yeah. Oh, started seven in the
00:20:27
morning, come on, seven at night. And literally in Washington, you could go to a reception every night
00:20:36
on the hill for somebody, for some purpose. And my wife and I went to a couple of state dinners at
00:20:48
the White House. And you know, after about four years, I thought to myself, "How many more times am I
00:20:54
going to go through this budget cycle?" And all that. And finally, I went to my boss and said,
00:21:02
"I think I've had about enough of Washington. I want to go somewhere where they're doing something
00:21:10
rather than talking about it." Sure. And they were very kind. And they said, "Hey, we just happened to
00:21:16
have an opening at Armstrong, well, Dryden Flight Research Center then." And I said, "done.
00:21:25
I'm gone. That's where you want me to go." And I was just there a short time and then went to the
00:21:32
KPIT Kennedy. But all of those years got all kind of like putting in a mixed master and got stirred
00:21:40
up and stirred again. And I used bits and pieces of it for the rest of my career. It still do today.
00:21:47
Wow. I know how to work there. At least I've been there. And when somebody tells me that so
00:21:54
and so is doing something, I say, "Okay, let's figure that out." And so I think the other thing that it
00:22:05
did moving away from the control center. And I don't mean this to put the control center down,
00:22:11
but it broke me out of the pack. I got visibility that you couldn't get just, you know, keeping
00:22:20
at it. I highly admire that people have stuck with it and stuck through it through shuttle and
00:22:27
early ISS and they were they were good. But I just was not in my DNA probably to stay in the same
00:22:37
view. I wanted to try to find things and learn and learn. Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about
00:22:43
those flight director days. You were the lead flight director for Apollo 17.
00:22:47
Right. What was it like? I mean, at that point you knew that was the last mission to the moon
00:22:54
and the Apollo program. How did that feel? Well, it was interesting. At first, you know, when they cut
00:23:01
or they cut 20, I think, then they cut 1918. So we knew 17 was going to be it. At first, I was
00:23:09
well, dang. You know, this is we were really hitting our stride by the time we got to 17 on the
00:23:17
exploration as opposed to transportation only, which we had to do in the early days. Just make
00:23:23
sure we could get out there and get back. Then I thought differently as to well, maybe it is time.
00:23:31
And I never will forget a conversation. We were coming back from the moon on
00:23:36
Apollo 17. You know, we were coasting back to Earth and things were quiet. Crew was asleep.
00:23:44
And the guys, quite often this would happen. The guys in the control center kind of stood up.
00:23:53
You know, shake a leg and all that. And they have a group of them. Most of them came up around my
00:24:03
console. And there was a little bit of well-flight. This is it. You know, we were getting toward our
00:24:10
last shift. And in fact, that might have been our last shift. And somebody else did the entry.
00:24:18
So I said, yeah, and I stood up with them. I was sitting down and they were all kind of
00:24:25
hovering over me. I said, dude, I said, but you know, maybe it's okay.
00:24:30
20 years from now, we'll be on Mars. That was 1972. That shows you what kind of predictor
00:24:38
I am at big steps like that. But I really did think that we would move on much quicker
00:24:46
back sending humans into deep space. Now we did a lot in the ensuing years until we
00:24:51
on the threshold are more Artemis now. But we just didn't do it. And our flight controllers and the
00:25:00
people here at JSC that are engineering and all that, they're good. They're good people.
00:25:05
But they've not had that chance yet to break out of low Earth orbit. Right.
00:25:12
And I guess I hope they get it quickly. Me too. I want to be here for it so much. And thinking about that,
00:25:20
you know, during Apollo 17, it's been 50 years now. Yeah. Did you think at that time that the
00:25:26
engineering and the architecture and the things, the lessons learned from that? Did you think that
00:25:31
we would still be using those today as we're preparing for this next giant leap?
00:25:35
I thought a couple of things. That's a great question because I thought a couple of things. One is
00:25:42
perhaps the biggest legacy we left to Artemis now or whoever came next was the fact that it could
00:25:51
be done. Yeah. Because when we started, we all, you know, we had the challenge and we were going for it,
00:25:58
but we hadn't done it yet. And I think if anything, what we've left,
00:26:06
shoulders to stand on, is the fact that it can be done. Right. And now there are a number of
00:26:14
technical areas too that I think. In fact, the flight directors here now tell me and
00:26:18
photos of Vanessa and others that, you know, they're without Apollo. There were a lot of questions
00:26:27
that we answered. So now we've got to execute with Artemis. And that's a good feeling to know that
00:26:36
it can be done. And that certain technology is so much better now. And in years of shuttle and
00:26:48
years of ISS have helped that even too. So I think the things that we learned, everybody recognizes that
00:27:02
they are valuable still. Of course, they happen a long time ago with different technologies and
00:27:09
things like that. But I really think the people understand that had we not done Apollo, we might not
00:27:15
have ever gone back. If we had a failure, unless somebody on the moon or something like that,
00:27:21
there may not have ever been a chance of getting back. So now at least we got the chance.
00:27:28
I agree. And if we'd had a failure, there might not have been a NASA. That's right. Could have been,
00:27:33
or it might have gone back to the research agency that NACA was before.
00:27:39
I think the world would look a lot different if we hadn't had successful Apollo missions. Right.
00:27:45
So let's think Apollo 13. I mean, that was considered a successful failure essentially. You were
00:27:53
going to be the flight director on console when we landed on the moon on Apollo 13. And pretty
00:27:59
quickly that went out the window. It did. So this becomes a six day mission when you have to figure
00:28:04
out how to how to bring these guys home safe. How did you how did everybody balance the work in
00:28:12
that time? The all of a sudden, this is entirely different than what we predicted.
00:28:18
Yeah. You know, the answer that I've been asked that before. And I we did what we were trained to do.
00:28:28
There was there was no panic. There was concern of course. But we had always been
00:28:40
trying to keep going as long as you have options. And we never ran out of it. And we got kind of
00:28:46
close, but but we just kept playing away. We can get it. We never discussed in the control center
00:28:52
not not getting them back. It never came up. Just said, okay, let's go to work figure this out.
00:28:59
And it was it could have gone south on us, I guess. If if certain things hadn't worked as well as
00:29:08
we thought they might. Yeah. But but the crew was great. The people on the ground were great. And
00:29:16
and this was the case where even if you look at the movie, there's all the most of the focuses on
00:29:26
on the mission control. But the whole the whole network of contractors and other centers and
00:29:34
all of that jumped in to help us. So we had we had many many people around the country working on
00:29:42
on Apollo 13 and down to the last decimal play. I mean fine stuff. And so
00:29:49
they deserve a big chunk of that credit too. We were just we were the final decision makers. And
00:29:58
after all that data was produced and all that and then getting it up to the crew and what to do and
00:30:04
how to do it. And so it was it was what we were trying to do. I don't
00:30:12
if I had one. Well, I'll wait to talk about the movie till we get there because there's there's one
00:30:19
thing that just irritated the heck out of it. I can't wait to hear it. Okay. But anyway, it was it was
00:30:27
Apollo 13 was I think it was the the term failure is not an option was never used. Yeah. That was later.
00:30:37
And we never we never really did much agonizing. It was more just hard work making sure we didn't miss
00:30:50
something. Right. Well, what was the pressure like after Apollo 13? Like I said, successful failure
00:30:56
essentially. What was the pressure like to make sure Apollo 14 as a comeback mission is successful?
00:31:03
Well, that that was a concern because and just like after the fire. Yeah. You have to you have to give
00:31:11
the leadership of the agency and the leadership of the country at the time that it wasn't killed
00:31:20
and just said, you know, this is too dangerous. You know, once they got once and we
00:31:27
rep of the the guys replicated the problem on the ground with the tank. There was no question
00:31:36
that let's fix it and fly 14. Yeah. And the contractors said about to do that just for
00:31:44
and we also added another oxygen tank on the other side of the service module.
00:31:49
So in case his fixes didn't work at least we'd have enough oxygen to get home. Just in case.
00:31:54
So, so you know, he just added a little more. And but it was it was precise and everybody felt by
00:32:04
the time we launched Apollo 14, I felt really good about it. And and I did do the land and
00:32:10
same place where we're going to go on 13. I did do the landing. I was a flight director for the
00:32:18
landing on that one my team and they worked. So we got them off and brought them home. Mission accomplished.
00:32:26
Mission accomplished. I was looking through I have this book of beautiful restored photos from Apollo.
00:32:34
And my dad and I were looking through it and he said, wow, I never realized the cadence of these
00:32:40
missions and how quickly they were happening. So what was that like on your side having to prepare
00:32:47
week after week for was it multiple missions at a time. I'm assuming you know you may be in one
00:32:52
mission and already planning to ahead. What's that like? It was tell you a quick anecdote that I remember.
00:32:59
And it goes back to Apollo 11 and I was we put two flight directors on the launch and I was with
00:33:09
Cliff Charles and we were in the countdown at the Cape and we got to hold a built-in hold where
00:33:21
everybody kind of looks at their data and says yeah we're okay. And so it was quiet for a minute
00:33:28
and I had already been named as lead flight director for 12 and I had already met with
00:33:36
Conrad and Bean and Gordon and we'd started flight plan stuff and all that.
00:33:44
I'm sitting there in the countdown for Apollo 11 our first landing mission and I'm
00:33:52
I'm thinking to myself okay what if I got to do on 12 since we get the launch chair
00:34:00
and you're going I got a call so and so and so and so and all of a sudden it don't know me hey you
00:34:05
dodo um get your head in this game not in the game that's going to take place later and uh but that's
00:34:13
what the overlap was like because we had to we had to stay ahead of things we had we only had six
00:34:21
flight directors wow and uh and so by the time we got to Apollo we we only had six
00:34:30
so we were all tied up and busy and going around in circles yeah um but it was wonderful time
00:34:38
it was it was so neat and particularly with the J missions which were the last three missions
00:34:44
that had a lot more capability than the first block of lunar modules and command modules uh it really
00:34:53
did we were looking I was looking really forward to those because I thought and I I alluded to this
00:35:02
earlier that we were early on we had to be our major focus was to get the crew out to the moon
00:35:10
get them back safely and do what science we could and by the time we got to 15 I think was the
00:35:18
breaking that was the first so-called j-mission um I could sense a change that we were why we were more
00:35:28
focused on why we were going in what we were going to do once we got there never taking our eyeballs
00:35:34
off the systems right and all that but we learned how to kind of assimilate both and a lot of
00:35:42
that came about because several of us well I was the first one but Dave Scott on 15 asked me to come
00:35:49
out and and go through some training with them on earth uh yeah lunar surface training so really
00:35:58
got to see how they how the lunar scientists talked to them and how they they really taught them
00:36:06
lunar science is what they did and so they were very comfortable and I remember Dave telling me one
00:36:13
time we never worried about our backpacks because we know you guys were watching that um they would
00:36:20
check them everyone's well but said you know we were just at it on the surface doing our exploration
00:36:26
work and uh so you could sense that all of this had started to change we had the rover and they could
00:36:32
go a lot farther away and all that so I really think the uh shift came between 14 and 15 and that shift
00:36:42
in thinking and as more I came back and I told Jane uh said you know we need to get some more guys
00:36:50
out there in the field with with the astronauts when they're training on the lunar surface stuff
00:36:56
and he agreed and he went uh I think he had the same reaction wow pretty cool oh yeah yeah and uh
00:37:04
met scientists from Caltech and all those places that were really neat people and USGA the geological
00:37:14
people so it was I really enjoyed those last three missions on the science side of it
00:37:22
uh and we we had problem we always had problems with those last three missions but in fact we almost
00:37:30
didn't land 14 we almost didn't land on 16 uh that was two of them that we really didn't
00:37:37
and 14 of course was the block one or uh spacecraft so by the time we got through 15
00:37:48
16 17 hey this works yeah you know we know how to do it now and I think there was that focus on the
00:37:57
science that all of us were able to drag off some time and really focus on that you call them the
00:38:05
J missions what's that stand for that was just uh that was it started if you go back it goes
00:38:11
clear back to a a b's and and it was the type of missions okay the J missions was was a new block
00:38:19
when they when they manufacture something like a lunar module there were block one and then they
00:38:26
improved it but they had they couldn't they couldn't just phase it in they had to get it ready to go
00:38:34
the block two spacecraft and at the end of 14 we went the block two for the rest of those three
00:38:42
missions they were more capable they could stay on the the lunar module for us let's get stay on
00:38:48
the moon longer um the command and service module had what we called assembly a scientific instrumentation
00:38:56
module that was continually mapping well it's the mothership state in orbit it was continually mapping
00:39:03
the moon oh that's so interesting so they they got much better resolution from that then now they're
00:39:10
it's even better now with with some robots but but that was kind of and we had to bring the film back
00:39:17
and so it meant they had to do an EVA in very deep space um essentially on the way home
00:39:24
and uh went outside and got got that film brought it back in and brought it back and they
00:39:31
developed wow the one thing about Apollo that was really interesting and 13 was a greatest example
00:39:39
we didn't have any way to upload information we get upload computer updates and things like that
00:39:47
um a little bit not not a whole lot but but we didn't have any way to for instance the Apollo 13
00:39:56
checklist the repower the command service module after we'd shut it down after the explosion
00:40:02
had to be worked out on the ground then we had to read it to him oh and you know what swagger told
00:40:08
us later jack swagger who was writing it out and I said we need to put some tablets or something
00:40:15
he was looking for things to write on yeah he didn't use you checklist back sheets and all that
00:40:23
that that he was doing and um so we didn't have any way to send up a lot of data at one time
00:40:30
and then when shuttle he had that I think it was called the teleprinter which was essentially
00:40:36
you could send him a document right you just say here's the new checklist and uh but uh it was
00:40:44
grassroots in the old days and and even with the final three missions the block two spacecraft and
00:40:52
that jay is just a name of a mission it didn't mean the jay itself didn't stand for anything
00:40:58
and um so it's really funny uh it does last three missions or a hoot because they were we were
00:41:11
into that lunar science a little more well it's funny you mentioned tablets because that means
00:41:16
something entirely different today yeah and we do have them on our our flights yeah well you know
00:41:22
and and uh and after the fire I don't I'm not sure which company it may have been somebody
00:41:28
like 3am built a a self-extinguishing paper that you couldn't wouldn't burn we had before the fire
00:41:36
we had a lot of paper inside the and we couldn't and I've been told that that paper is now used in
00:41:43
operating environments in hospitals where there's a high oxygen content that where you have a little more
00:41:50
uh in the atmosphere of the room have more oxygen available than they use that kind of paper that
00:41:57
won't it won't ignite it just goes out and see I wish more people knew that all the things that
00:42:02
were developed for NASA that now have practical use I hope that I could say I've heard that
00:42:08
and I've never had somebody say yeah they'll use it they may not even know they're using it
00:42:13
right spaper right yeah that's fascinating I wouldn't be surprised if that's accurate could be
00:42:18
so 50 years later about the same moon so what's your advice for the the future lunar flight directors
00:42:26
you know I talked to some of them occasionally and I talked to the head of the Emily Nelson now and
00:42:33
they the main advice I give them is that it's hard to get in space and it's just it's hard to get
00:42:46
to low earth orbit but there's nothing like when you do trans lunar injection which is what we call
00:42:54
the burn that sends you to the moon maneuver as velocity enough to escape Earth uh-huh
00:43:00
that's a bit of a gulp moment uh because now we've done it yeah no going on we've committed them and
00:43:09
we got to get them back somewhere either through an abort or through a normal mission or whatever
00:43:15
but we we've the cruise lives are now on the line uh in a different fashion
00:43:21
at the moon you know it'll take you three and a half four days to get home yeah if you have a problem
00:43:28
unlike lower the orbit or I think from the ISS as a matter of hours they could abandon it and
00:43:35
um if they really had to fire or something right um so I really think the
00:43:45
the bottom line to Artemis is that we're ready to do it it's been done
00:43:52
we've got a great team of people um I think we've just got to turn them loose if we can
00:44:01
and and that's that's what we had in Apollo they turned us loose and they trusted us and we trusted
00:44:10
them and they had our back and we had their back and up and down up and down the chain
00:44:15
um that's hard to maintain yeah very long it sounds so electric though yeah to work here in that time
00:44:23
yeah always yeah quick story on Apollo 13 that is the best indicator I can remember
00:44:33
um glenn linee and I jing crans was off trying to figure out what had happened
00:44:41
in your shutdown and how to get it get the of the command module and get it and be able to
00:44:47
later get it back on because that never had been done in space and uh so his team was up to
00:44:54
year so glenn and my uh glenn linee he was a black team and I was the uh gold team and both our
00:45:01
teams had worked on on um what to do next I was more focused on consumables and glenn was more on
00:45:10
trajectory and finally at one point now listen to this transcript not too long ago um I called
00:45:20
well craft had been in the control center quite a bit that so I just talked directly to him I think
00:45:27
we know what we want to do now and and I can't remember either he said or I said it we were to get
00:45:34
to senior management it's here right right and at least brief him so then it was coming up and uh
00:45:42
so we went into the uh we went downstairs to the viewing room on the second floor
00:45:49
and uh the control center was shut down there was hardly any lights on in the place but it was a
00:45:56
private place and there were people there like craft and gill roof and uh rock opatrone dig slate and
00:46:05
and the administrator of of uh nasa the fellow named tom pain tomas pain
00:46:13
and at there were some other people from other centers and I can't remember and we had some of our
00:46:20
nj max for j was there and there were there were some engineering people in room probably maybe 15-20
00:46:26
people max so I briefed them on consumables and what it looked like um glenn got up and explain
00:46:34
several options on trajectory and he finally got to the end of his discussion and he said
00:46:40
and the option we like is what we call pc plus two that's pericentian that's
00:46:48
closest point of approach to the moon plus two hours to do this manoeuvre with the
00:46:53
distance stage on the on the lunar module and speed us up it gets us back or we can get a carrier
00:47:02
underneath it and it uh oh jimmy if it was there he was a program manager um it gets us
00:47:10
okay we can get a carrier under him so we'll have a carrier uh we we can get him back faster about
00:47:17
I think it was 18 hours we could get him back quicker um but we got to burn that decent engine
00:47:24
you know a long time to get add that velocity and but that's the one we like
00:47:30
and so then he just left it there and and there was this long silence
00:47:41
um not long but it it was awkward silence for a minute
00:47:47
Tom Paine the head of the agency said what can we do to help you man
00:47:52
that's only said there were no questions about did you think about her right you do this or did
00:47:59
you do that that's worth it leadership had trust yeah in us and um so the whole that whole
00:48:09
sequence kind of and I didn't recognize it at the time but later on when I said golly how neat that
00:48:17
was and now one of those guys raised a question right about well you want to burn the engine that long
00:48:24
or already been decided it was okay yeah you're the closest to it that you just did that you knew
00:48:31
the best and that's the point that I think was the strength of NASA is because decisions not just
00:48:39
at JSC and during missions but all over those decisions were pushed down to the level where the
00:48:46
expertise was right and one of my points I make when I talk to corporations because it happens to
00:48:52
corporations same way as they age more decisions start going to the top which slows things down
00:49:01
to cost money and then you get in often cases you've got people at the top trying to make decisions
00:49:10
that don't don't know much about yeah it's it may be the financial impact but whether it's a worthy
00:49:17
way to go or whatever they don't have that and I can see it in NASA today that as the agency is
00:49:26
aged there's more visibility and decisions coming out of headquarters about a very highly technical
00:49:33
issue right and I I don't think it's the way to go I think it's inevitable unless you're just
00:49:43
very very conscious of it and don't let it happen but it happens and I when I got into the private
00:49:54
sector in particular when I was in the executive search business I could see it in the biggest
00:50:01
companies in the United States that in what often happens somebody will move up the chain and command
00:50:08
and they take their decisions with them rather than leaving them with the people that they knew they
00:50:15
should have readied to take that day and so it's something you got to worry about and think about I
00:50:25
don't think our people at headquarters for instance I don't think they ever wanted the decision-making
00:50:34
process when it came to highly technical decisions now you know if it's money or something like that of
00:50:42
course but I don't think they like they knew that we were ready that we knew what we were talking about
00:50:50
and that was that trust level leadership can do that if they trust the people below them hold
00:50:57
us accountable you know if we screw up something's got to happen but hold us accountable but don't
00:51:08
try to make the decision yourself yeah well with that I mean you really rose up through the
00:51:14
ranks at NASA starting as a flight controller and then all the way up to working at headquarters
00:51:20
and working as a center director do you think it's important that leadership gets to see an
00:51:25
organization from the bottom before being promoted to leadership yeah I do I think and in fact
00:51:33
at that's a good point when I went to take over legislative affairs and if I hadn't trusted
00:51:39
mossing off in Bob Wood I don't know what I had done right because they taught me how to do that
00:51:47
and they never got out of it they kept doing it themselves too so if there was something I didn't
00:51:54
understand I'd say Bob would you go talk to Senator Glutz and and see if you can straighten him out
00:52:01
usually it was a lost cause I said I didn't mossing out to the lost cause I like to talk to the friends
00:52:07
and but yeah I think it's just something that every large organization needs to be conscious
00:52:19
of don't try to do too much at the top it slows things down
00:52:27
part of that came about and understandably after the challenger accident more paper or more
00:52:33
approvals more this more that and that's the price you pay when you have an accident
00:52:40
but it would be nice to see if you could shed that after a while and build that trust back
00:52:50
and and be like Apollo yeah that's a really great perspective yeah well about you're about 20 years
00:52:59
here before you left NASA how did you see it all change in that time um actually I was the only
00:53:09
change that I've really noticed is when I was director here the then administrator and his deputy
00:53:19
wanted me to be the the guy that broke up the space station in the work packages so all the centers
00:53:27
could be involved and you know flying shuttles pretty fast at that point but I had to do that I
00:53:37
felt like Henry Kissinger and you it was Secretary of State and I used to call it his shuttle diplomacy
00:53:43
was airplanes all over the world flying to Rome Vienna however you had to go that's what I felt
00:53:50
like except it was in a Gulf Stream one which was a very slow prop driven airplane but I went all
00:53:58
over the center and I tried to convince at that point I said you ought to give the station to a
00:54:05
single lead center and it does if you don't want it to be JSC if you want to break up the Yankees
00:54:12
that kind of story then give it to Marshall give it to Kennedy I even went and talked to Don
00:54:18
Hart who was the then-centered director at Langley I said would you be interested in running this
00:54:26
thing if if I could talk bags and mark into it and he said no way I don't I don't want a piece of it
00:54:36
I wanted I want to stay in the research business and so I said okay but I was and finally I
00:54:43
started breaking it up into small pieces and it was kind of like a little bit like the
00:54:50
workforce development job instead of getting the done getting it done more efficiently and
00:55:01
so and build it on trust you know that so anyway that that's what I know
00:55:08
this more than anything is how we had become a little bit you got to kind of even out the
00:55:16
playing field sky like giving a trophy to everybody that plays the game whether they win or lose
00:55:22
and the other centers as I said earlier were outstanding they were really good
00:55:28
but they weren't necessarily ops people right you know are they weren't necessarily strong and
00:55:34
this or that or the other and the man the three centers between Marshall and and JSC and Kennedy
00:55:42
we had the talent to do it I think in our contractors of course they were critical
00:55:49
but in fact you know we didn't cut a lot of hardware in Johnson Space Center
00:55:57
that flew tools and things like that so yeah I really do think the for the long run the
00:56:06
NASA has slowly crept into that too many decisions at too high level which are time-consuming
00:56:18
and are very costly yeah and we're straining for budget I'd put I believe if I were king for a day
00:56:28
I was saying it's easy I believe I'd put more responsibility down at the centers and see if we could
00:56:35
crank it up a little and since you left NASA you've been pretty busy you've been really busy
00:56:42
NASA in the ISS you know it's been marvelous machine but my goodness it ever goes away it doesn't land
00:56:50
I know I know the people land in the cars out of the cargo lands but
00:56:54
man I can't imagine those hours of of managing the control of the space station it's got to be
00:57:06
it's got to be tough it's constant it's admirable but you've been pretty busy too since you left NASA
00:57:12
yep some of those things you were a technical advisor on some blockbuster films we're thinking
00:57:19
Apollo 13 obviously Apollo 18 contact deep impact fly me to the moon is a new one
00:57:27
is a brand new you acted on some of those yep tell me all about it well I was part of a group of people
00:57:34
that that met with Ron Howard I was already living in the hill country been I got a call from his
00:57:42
office saying we could you meet with him and we went to the old controller the third floor before
00:57:47
it was restored and I said sure he went he's trying to decide whether to make a movie out of it or not
00:57:56
and out of Jim's book Jim level book and which had been located by the son who worked for
00:58:06
Ron of a flight controller named Jerry Bostic Michael grew up with my kids from about that age
00:58:16
up but he's the one that found that and he was working for Ron Howard so anyway we I went I came
00:58:24
down here from the hill country and and went to the control center and here was Ron Howard but he
00:58:31
was also Tom Hanks and Kevin Bacon and and Bill Paxton and he had a universal studios and the writer
00:58:40
and others and there was about six of us that had actually been involved in the mission
00:58:48
and he told us right away he said he said I've read the transcript I'm sure he hadn't read all
00:58:56
of it but he read enough he said sounds like a normal mission we all kind of like he is well not quite
00:59:02
and but he said weren't you scared he said he was trying to find the emotion right right and we all
00:59:13
kind of looked that way no that's not the right word yeah we were concerned but we were
00:59:20
is what we were trying to do you know so he's get to it and we did four hours there and then did
00:59:29
four hours at the barbecue place outside of we did four more hours of talk and questions and
00:59:42
and boy they had done their homework Tom Hanks had really done his homework and
00:59:47
they asked us a lot of technical stuff but finally when they left which was about six o'clock at night
00:59:55
after starting in the morning I didn't think he would be making the movie and because we kept telling him
01:00:05
it we were just working options anyway that's the way we did things it wasn't dramatic enough for him yeah
01:00:12
so we went away in about 30 days later I get a call and said would you like to be a technical
01:00:17
advisor for the movie and I said yeah I didn't know what I was getting at I gave away about three or four
01:00:23
months of my life but and when we got out there I remember the first time Jerry Bostic was also
01:00:33
a technical advisor he was a flight dynamics guy and the father of the guy that found the material too
01:00:41
so if Ron said it once and particularly when we started shooting finally it took us a few days to
01:00:50
kind of get cranked up and he said remember I'm not making a documentary I'm making an entertaining
01:00:58
movie yeah I want it technically to look right right and in the technical stuff to sound right but
01:01:06
I've got to have license to do this or that or the other well he would do something you know they
01:01:12
would each you know what do you think he you know he'd ask all of us what do you think well I was
01:01:17
I said well that's not quite right and he said Jerry I told you I'm not making a documentary
01:01:26
well he asked yeah and I said okay took a while for the creative side of my brain to start kicking in
01:01:34
and so it was and then he had to if you look at Apollo 13 anytime there's a
01:01:45
control center shot where it's aimed at the big boards right on the front
01:01:51
there's people walking this way and they walk this way and they were there's just constant motion
01:01:55
people walking back and forth and I said that looks chaotic I said that's not the way it was
01:02:03
and we didn't have a bunch of people of creation. They actually had extras set up where they could
01:02:11
go one way and then they sent them back the other way or new people to this way and then it was
01:02:18
anyway he said you don't have he's something like I'm paraphrasing you don't have many shots where
01:02:28
there's no motion except maybe in a love scene and so that's okay I get it okay it didn't hurt
01:02:37
the technical piece it was just not like it was right so that took getting used to and then the other
01:02:44
thing I found out is how much script that I with the writers consent that I had to rewrite because
01:02:53
I tried to tell him the air to ground conversation was more of a disciplined conversation it was a
01:03:03
conversation with discipline right it wasn't stilted over and out kind of discussions you know and
01:03:13
and a few times you might get a little more serious but quite often say hey Ron do this or
01:03:18
may Fred have it turned the switch over there so it was done with discipline but it was not
01:03:26
stilted stop right and he was amenable to changing all that and and so they I rewrote a lot of that in
01:03:34
fact I've worked five feature films and they've I've done script on all a lot of it was kind of fun
01:03:42
and I've turned down a couple of ones I didn't like I didn't even work at them but
01:03:49
anyhow the it was a fun business it different it I had a jaded
01:04:00
thought about Hollywood I thought it was mostly glitz but you know what I found out on 13
01:04:06
and it was same in in the others people were dedicated hard working in at seven in the morning
01:04:15
sometime I get out till ten at night back at seven in the morning the actress having to go through
01:04:21
makeup again and all that they worked hard it was and they were working toward a common goal
01:04:30
which reminded me very much of what I had done in Apollo yeah they believed in their mission too
01:04:35
they believed in their mission too and so it kind of changed my view of of Hollywood and then
01:04:42
contact came along and I got the opportunity to work with with the jody foster is amazing
01:04:49
and I wrote a lot of script there and that's first time I got in front of the camera
01:04:56
and they had to do what they call it taft heartly force to get me in because I was not a member of SAG
01:05:04
right but you are now I am now but they could force me in once without me joining got it okay
01:05:11
so we finished that and that was a great movie I really enjoyed that one this
01:05:17
Carla got to meet Carl Sagan before he died while we were shooting and uh but met some very interesting
01:05:25
people on that one but jody was really impressed me and then with the deep impact was Bobby DeVole
01:05:34
that's what we call him and Robert DeVole that was an experience and he was he was neat and went
01:05:44
back to his horse farm in Virginia and spent a weekend with him wow going through the script
01:05:49
and you didn't live in Hollywood he said he couldn't stand it out there
01:05:53
but uh he was a fun guy to work with and it was it was a very interesting movie um
01:06:00
and then did Apollo 18 we shot that in in Canada in Vancouver oh I didn't know that yeah and
01:06:09
that was a Weinstein movie of and I never met Harvey I met his brother uh and uh and it was different
01:06:23
it was growing thing as Coler and Hick and it really cold up there and everybody in
01:06:28
coats because we were in his warehouse where they put this winter surface set in and no heat
01:06:35
in winter time cold cold like the moon yeah yeah um and then came my last one oh it was in contact
01:06:46
where I got in to the first acting rule deep impact I did the same thing and again I was kept
01:06:55
typecast I was I was in a control center and uh but I they couldn't force me into that one
01:07:03
the director wanted to put me in it and so I had to join Sagan they paid for it oh that's great uh
01:07:10
nice thing about that is when I got home after we finished deep impact month so later I get this
01:07:17
check in the mail residual check from contact nice check and I still get them I still get them and
01:07:25
I get them from deep impact what and I will get them from fly me to the moon so go buy those DVDs
01:07:32
you got it and Netflix anything you can think of but all and uh but I haven't uh haven't gotten that
01:07:39
first check yet um and the uh it was interesting the the the last one fly me to the moon it's
01:07:49
everything except Apollo 13 strictly fiction uh-huh I finally got the creative set of my brain
01:07:57
exercised enough that I understand what they're doing now and and and that made it a little easier
01:08:03
uh working with with this director again named Greg Berlanti and uh
01:08:10
and then uh Scarlett Johansson and and uh Channing Tatum and Ray Navarro and
01:08:23
Woody Herylson yeah um it was really fun oh it was probably one of the it was one of the
01:08:31
fun thing and the probably one of the most enjoyable laughed a lot it's a romantic comedy yeah
01:08:39
with a nice twist at the end and um I gotta tell you anymore if you haven't seen good I think it's my
01:08:46
weekend plan now yeah okay and um she is so good and uh so it's Channing both of them and both
01:08:54
of them took the opportunity to come up to me while we were in production and um and when I met
01:09:03
Scarlett the first time she I said it it's an honor to meet you I said I've actually seen your
01:09:11
marvel yeah stuff that she does I said actually I've gone back and looked at it after I knew I was going to
01:09:17
meet her but that's smart but I said you uh you uh really you really um um it's an honor to meet you
01:09:27
and she looked me squaringly and she said no it's my honor oh that's because you really did this yeah
01:09:36
and I thought how nice of her to say and Channing came up to me and in one scene we had a a camera move and
01:09:44
took 20 minutes um and he came up to me during that that time and just said you know sir he had to call
01:09:55
me sir but uh after that he called me Jerry but he said sir said I just want to tell you how proud I am
01:10:05
of you and again I thought how nice of him to say that nice people nice people that's true to me
01:10:16
that's a that's a fun movie it's it turns out to be more like a hallmark theater than it does
01:10:25
hard stuff and I know it's it's gotten some well I've been told because I don't I don't do social media
01:10:37
anymore um that that has gotten a lot of criticism because it had something to do with a fake landing
01:10:46
well yeah watch it to the end you know anyway that's what I want to say watch the thing before you
01:10:54
this this was before it was released and uh by the way it the movie business has been a it's been a nice
01:11:05
break because I've never stopped talking about real space stuff and um I've always felt it
01:11:17
an obligation um particularly to the American people europeans are crazy about Apollo yeah
01:11:24
but I I've always felt an obligation to tell the story uh that I do a lot for nothing and then I do
01:11:32
some things for a fee I went to australia and got paid nicely but I really do it because I think
01:11:42
I think those of us that are still around ought to talk about it in remind us where we were 50 years ago
01:11:51
yeah I'm really grateful you came here today to talk about it yeah I've got one more question for you
01:11:56
okay so looking forward what what do you hope we see in the future of human space flight
01:12:05
and what do you think are the most important lessons learned that we have to carry forward
01:12:12
I I think I think the thing we're going to have to do is recognize I think the commercial having
01:12:23
the commercial people are a big asset um and his late was leading coming I thought somebody would
01:12:32
or I thought one of the big companies would start spending some of their own money which I tried to
01:12:37
talk something I'm into way back when I was director here want you to invest some and then they basically
01:12:44
said that our shareholders wouldn't approve us too risky and I thought well that's probably true
01:12:52
but my god you've made a fortune off a risky a risky business right and uh but I think having two
01:13:02
billionaires step up in at least jump starting the commercial piece I think is a big asset for
01:13:09
the future I believe the commercial sector will own the low earth orbit domain yeah they will do
01:13:18
the launching they will do the recovery they will and do some very very important stuff some of them
01:13:26
may want to go on I know it heard musk say that you want us to go to Mars um
01:13:33
Bezos been a little quieter about that you're building a great vehicle but anyway that kind of takes
01:13:45
that leaves NASA to go deep yeah and to me that's what we ought to be doing we ought to be going
01:13:52
back to the moon on the Mars and I've got a this is just Jerry Griffin opinion um I think
01:14:01
and it's not global warming but I think a thousand years from now 5,000 10,000 you name it I don't know
01:14:08
where it is we're gonna we're gonna use up this planet and I mean we're gonna use up the resources
01:14:15
and we're gonna have so many people on it and we're gonna second everything out of it we can't
01:14:21
and I think if the human species is to survive uh we're gonna have to do it somewhere else
01:14:29
so to me the important thing or NASA and the country to think about in the world even
01:14:36
is how do we move around in deep space how do we travel out there um
01:14:45
getting to the moon is tough enough and that's only you know 240,000 miles away in max
01:14:52
and and then to go to Mars is entirely different subbing much harder and and to go to even
01:15:04
beyond that you know the scientists are looking for small planets that are either
01:15:12
around another sun or around some object that we can get to in a few light years um places that
01:15:21
might be habitable you might have an atmosphere that we could deal with um I think we ought to spend
01:15:30
a certain portion of the national budget and it's like right now I think it's a half a one percent
01:15:36
yeah um I'm learning how to move around in deep space how to go places out of land how to stay
01:15:45
in space even for a long time because you're gonna have to do that occasionally trying to
01:15:51
forget what you're gonna do next now like I say this is not coming up I mean it's years in the future
01:15:59
but I really think we need to do that and I think the Artemis is a start yeah it's you know
01:16:07
Apollo is a small step in exploring space I mean we landed six times on a closest body to us
01:16:14
other than the earth um Artemis will be a little bit bigger step but it's still a baby step
01:16:21
right uh we need to learn how to go even farther than that so to me it's something that
01:16:29
we need to do and you know I look at the size of our budget 25 billion um compared to
01:16:40
not the entitlement programs you can't do that you got to get with but DOD spills that much you know
01:16:50
in a day or a year that we could double that um it's just there's gotta be a resolve that and it
01:17:01
kind of goes back to something that George Lone I focused on back in 1972 73 period
01:17:08
and that is that we haven't spent a dollar on the moon we haven't spent a dollar on Mars
01:17:16
we've all been spent here uh learning doing uh getting to the moon right getting to Mars with robots
01:17:25
very fancy robots good ones um and we need we need to do more in it we've got I think
01:17:38
ultimately NASA needs multi-year funding now we've talked about that since 72 73
01:17:47
um it's something like a five-year horizon because every time they saw tooth us
01:17:53
yeah and they take us down and then that causes the slip in the schedule and they say
01:18:00
and then when we come in at the end oh well you're overrunning right well no kidding
01:18:05
hard no kidding we we're we've got to cut back we can't take our starting standing army and say go
01:18:13
home we may be able to cut down a little bit but when we go into one of these cuts you cut
01:18:20
Artemis or you cut I don't care what it is cut it cut a robot to the to the learner's surface
01:18:27
you're killing us yeah and you're making you're making your prophecy as you go
01:18:35
but you don't ever own up to the fact that you caused it congress or you caused it
01:18:42
OMB or White House whoever um so it's gonna be a tough battle and Artemis will be
01:18:50
constantly a hard fight and but it sounds like the the agency is trying to do that so that's good
01:18:59
yeah I'm ready for that challenge yeah thank you so much Jerry I've loved this conversation
01:19:05
well I'm glad you have I enjoy talking about it and I'm no movie star but thank you really not
01:19:11
just for being here today and continuing to tell the NASA story and but for everything that you did
01:19:17
during Apollo and and putting a human on the moon with us I mean it the world would be so different
01:19:23
without you without your teammates I can't imagine and I I think you're right I think the
01:19:29
what we did 50 years ago was amazing when I look back at it um watching young people
01:19:41
good leaders um and you know Kennedy set the goal to do it within that decade we lost almost two
01:19:51
years after the fire and um we lost another almost year about a year 10 months I think after
01:20:03
Apollo 13 that was just but the system stayed with us that old time I mean that was that was so important
01:20:12
and we got we got on with it and but I think it takes a lot of work and and and I know the people
01:20:23
at headquarters that I was spoken to Bill Nelson sometime but I have with Pam working hard
01:20:31
keep it going well thank you for your service to the country for your service to the agency
01:20:38
and for coming and being with us here today all of that was my pleasure thank you
01:20:44
[Music]
01:20:53
thanks for sticking around and I hope you enjoyed getting to know a little bit more about Jerry Griffin
01:21:06
if you want to know what else is up with NASA you can visit us online at nasa.gov for the latest
01:21:12
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01:21:28
this episode was recorded august 16th 2024 thanks to Charles clandaniel Josh Barker cell
01:21:35
will flado dain turner abby graph jane jenning scary Jordan and Stephanie Castillo and of course
01:21:41
thanks again to jerry griffin for taking the time to come on the show give us a rating and feedback
01:21:46
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back next week three two one this is an official nasa podcast
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