Summary for The Space Show presents Dean Cheng Friday, 9-19-25

Summary by Zoom, edited.

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We began this Space Show program with our guest, Dean Cheng, with a discussion about U.S.-China space relations and the Wolf Amendment's restrictions on NASA interactions with China, followed by an exploration of space exploration priorities and strategic considerations regarding lunar and Martian missions. The conversation then shifted to examining China's approach to space exploration and its historical context, including cultural motivations and diplomatic strategies, while also discussing the potential implications of directed energy weapons in space. The conversation ended with technical discussions about the Space Show's live caller participation system and its limitations, along with a brief discussion about tax-deductible donations. Detail follows. Space Show participants included John Hunt, Dr. Charles Lurio, Marshall Martin, Michael Listner, Atty, and Dr. Ajay Kothari.

David and Dean discussed the Wolf Amendment and its implications for U.S.-China relations in space. Dean clarified that while Congress is not prohibited from talking to the Chinese, NASA, OSTP, and the National Space Council are restricted. They also briefly touched on the contrast between U.S. engagement with China in areas like business and education versus space policy. The conversation ended with David mentioning recent shows featuring security experts and potential future discussions on China-related topics. In addition, Dean outlined the Wolf amendment's specifics and his position on maintaining it plus he did explain why he holds the position he has on this item.

Our Space Show group discussed perspectives on space exploration priorities, with David mentioning a debate between focusing on the moon versus Mars among his listeners. Dean shared his view that both the moon and Mars are strategically important for competition with China, particularly regarding cislunar space governance and the potential for China to be first to bring back Mars samples. The conversation highlighted differing opinions on space exploration approaches, including concerns about the Artemis program and alternative methods using SpaceX's Starship technology.

Per the Wolf Amendment, Dean went on to discuss the challenges and risks of engaging with Chinese companies in the space and technology sectors, particularly regarding national security concerns and data protection. Dean explained that while private industry and government have different equities and vulnerabilities, the Wolf Amendment restricts certain government interactions with China, though its potential repeal is uncertain. They debated whether commercial competition with China should take precedence over national security concerns, with Dean arguing that China's state-controlled economy and access to sensitive information present significant risks that should not be underestimated.

Dean explained why getting to the moon before China is important, highlighting concerns about U.S. capabilities and China's plans for a sustained lunar presence. He noted that China's competitive approach, including their "dual circulation" strategy, could give them an edge in space. Dean acknowledged that the U.S. has fallen behind its 2024 moon landing commitment and expressed concerns about our ability to sustain a lunar program at $4 billion per launch. Michael discussed how China approaches space strategy differently from the West, comparing it to a "game of go" rather than chess, and suggested that China's actions in the South China Sea could be a model for their space activities.

Dean talked about the importance of understanding different negotiation styles, particularly comparing business and diplomatic approaches, and emphasized that China's actions are driven by a desire to restore its historical greatness rather than just financial gain. Dr. Kothari highlighted the cultural and civilizational pride underlying China and India's ambitious space programs, noting how these initiatives resonate with historical and divine identifications for their people. The discussion touched on how leaders like Xi Jinping tie national ambitions to reviving past glory, with China's space program being a key component of this broader vision.

Our guest brought up the historical evolution of space exploration, comparing it to three distinct eras: Space 1.0 during the Cold War, Space 2.0 from the end of the Cold War to the early 2000s, and current Space 3.0 with China's increased involvement. He emphasized that China's approach to space engagement differs from cooperation, noting their strategic relationships and the absence of American involvement in the Chinese space station. Dean also highlighted the importance of understanding the historical context of space diplomacy and the role of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) in Chinese space initiatives.

Dean continued to discuss the potential implications of the Trump administration's Golden Dome concept, emphasizing that while it presents interesting opportunities with advances in directed energy and other technologies, it also raises strategic stability concerns similar to those in the 1960s and 70s. He noted that the significant reduction in cost to orbit and increased launch cadence could impact feasibility and affect China's strategic calculations. Ajay raised questions about the legality and effectiveness of deploying directed energy weapons in space, to which Dean clarified that, under the Outer Space Treaty, nuclear weapons are prohibited, but other forms of directed energy weapons are legal.

Our continued discussion focused on cultural and civilizational perspectives in space exploration, with Charles and Ajay highlighting how China's space ambitions are tied to its historical narrative of "century of humiliation" and India's interest in mythological stories. Dean shared historical perspectives on Manifest Destiny, noting how other countries viewed the United States' expansion in the 19th century, particularly the concerns in European capitals about America's battle-hardened military. The conversation concluded with a discussion about how different countries' historical expansions were viewed, with Dean pointing out that while Manifest Destiny had a specific term, other countries' expansions were similarly motivated by available technology and historical context.

Moving on, we focused on cultural and historical perspectives on space exploration, particularly comparing Chinese and Indian approaches. Dean explained how Chinese science fiction like "The Three-Body Problem" presents different approaches to alien contact than Western narratives, reflecting China's historical experiences and cultural context. The conversation also explored China's long-term planning capabilities through its 5-year plans and Project 921, which has provided stability for the Chinese Human Space Flight Program over decades. Ajay shared a unique perspective on India's historical relationship with the West, noting that while India has civilizational pride dating back to before 1000 AD, the country's more recent history of damage came from Islamic invasions rather than Western influence, making India more open to cooperation with the United States.

Dean discussed China's competitive approach to commercial space development, highlighting their deployment of multiple PEO constellations and the strategic implications for military surveillance. He explained that China views the West, particularly the US and its entrepreneurs, as a threat, and noted that China's private sector aerospace investment began in 2014-2015 in response to Western commercial companies like SpaceX. The discussion also covered China's lunar program, which aims to establish an International Lunar Research Station, and potential human missions to Mars, with Dean suggesting that if China were first to put humans on Mars, it could significantly enhance CCP legitimacy. Charles and Ajay contributed insights about America's historical challenges with space program funding and China's development of thorium nuclear power technology.

We did a bit of Space Show business at the end of the program. I discussed the current format and challenges with the Space Show's live caller participation system. I explained that while listeners can still call in via Zoom phone lines, most prefer to participate through email rather than phone calls, leading to limited live audience engagement during Zoom shows. The group discussed technical limitations preventing the integration of the toll-free line with Zoom due to audio quality concerns, and David emphasized that while he encourages caller partici