The biggest wins in marketing rarely fit into neat dashboards. Rory Sutherland joins us to unpack why creativity is “fat-tailed,” how a few outlier ideas create the lion’s share of value, and why short-term incentives push teams to optimise what’s easy to count rather than what actually compounds. From “member since” on a card to names on Coke bottles, we dig into billion-dollar ideas that cost little to make but transform loyalty, fame, and lifetime value.

David and Rory get honest about metrics and the bottlenecks they create. When every brand chases the same KPIs, platforms become toll roads and marketers pay rent for access. Rory argues for brand-specific measures that mirror your distinctive value, plus smarter routes to reach people without bidding wars, think influence, communities, and the “Cafe Nero” side door. They also contrast two economic worldviews: the tidy rational model that treats marketing as a cost, and the psychology-first approach that sees value as subjective, created in minds through service, design, and language.

The conversation ranges from call centres as underestimated value engines to why family-owned firms often excel at brand building. David and Rory explore how an efficiency mindset blocks innovation by forcing either-or decisions, and how relational capitalism, trust over time, not transactional maximisation, builds resilient brands. The practical pivot: don’t just sell outputs; sell how you think. In an AI age, the durable advantage is reframing problems and resolving false trade-offs, turning contradictions into strengths. If you believe in magic, you’ll notice it, nurture it, and let it power growth.

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