There are still too many unpaid internships around, but there are fewer than there were - and that's partly thanks to Tanya de Grunwald.

In this episode, Julie Scanlon interviews her co-host about her 'dark past' calling out Simon Cowell, Tony Blair and Philip Green over unpaid internships. The pair discuss why Tanya's activism was so successful in the 'golden era' of the 2010s, where and why progress stalled, and how the next generation of young campaigners could re-start the fight:

- What does the law say about unpaid internships - and why do people think an 'intern' is a special class of employee who needn't be paid, and doesn't need to eat or pay rent?

- If most interns are covered by the National Minimum Wage law, why isn't it being enforced properly?

- Why was naming-and-shaming such an effective campaign strategy between 2010 and 2014, and why does Tanya think it wouldn't work now?

- Why did the corporate world lead the way on ending unpaid internships in the 2010s, when challenged over them? Was it because it was 'the right thing to do' - or were there good business reasons, too?

- Why have some industries - such as media, fashion, politics and charity - been so reluctant to ditch unpaid internships? And is it a coincidence that these are the industries where they started?

- Why does Tanya think the politicians didn't do more to help end unpaid internships - and is the current reporting system fit for purpose?

- Why aren't young people angrier about unpaid internships? And, if an agreed strike would end unpaid internships overnight, why won't they do it?

- If fixing this challenge for 2024 and beyond needs fresh eyes, whose might those be?

- Why does Tanya love a 'David and Goliath' fight - and should 'Curious and Furious' be the title of her memoirs?

Enjoy the episode! PS. You may notice that Tanya doesn't mention the role of universities. That's because she's saving that for a future episode...

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