Fashion History Now #65: Listener Mail Roundup
Update: 2024-12-06
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For our penultimate episode of season 7, we hear from YOU! Today's listener mail episode investigates the history of the French couture house Manguin, gets some updates on the militarization of glitter during WWII and makes an instagram rec to follow @moonhoney.jewelry for super interesting content on the history of jewelry.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Dress, the history of fashion, is a production of dress media.
00:00:03
Without our eight billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common.
00:00:12
Every day, we all get dressed.
00:00:13
Welcome to Dress, the history of fashion, a podcast that explores who won win of why we wear.
00:00:20
We are fashion historians and your hosts, Cassidy Zachary, and April Kellyanne.
00:00:24
Dress listeners, I cannot believe what I'm about to say, but today's episode is our pen ultimate episode of season seven of the podcast, meaning it is the second to last of our seventh year of making the show,
00:00:38
which is totally wild.
00:00:39
Thank you for defining that word for me because as our listeners probably know, April's vocabulary as well advanced, more advanced than mine.
00:00:49
And I'm always telling you you need to defy things from because I don't know them, but penultimately, yes, this is wild.
00:00:56
I can't believe it's December for one.
00:00:59
And yes, this is our second to last episode.
00:01:03
We have our last episode that will be coming your way next week, which is now a grand tradition of dress is our annual holiday gift exchange where April and I gift quote unquote each other items from the annals of fashion history.
00:01:17
And April has way more fun with this than me.
00:01:20
And so I'm going to be a little cheeky this year, April.
00:01:23
All right.
00:01:24
To up my game and see if I can surprise you.
00:01:28
So we'll see.
00:01:28
It's always super fun.
00:01:30
And we love ending our seasons with this because it's just a nice ringer in of the holidays.
00:01:36
And then we go on our annual hiatus for making new episodes for a few weeks.
00:01:41
We can take a little break over the holidays ourselves.
00:01:44
And this is one of the reasons why I thought it actually might be nice to hear from you all before we were assigned off for season seven.
00:01:52
So today we're going to bring you a listener mail episode with some fun queries, comments, and even a little bit of our original research on our part.
00:02:00
So we would like to start off with a listener mail that Cassine and I have been chomping at the bit to get to over the past couple of months because it's this incredibly touching story.
00:02:11
And as soon as it hit our mailbox, Cass, you texted me and you said, oh, we either need to make this a what's in your closet episode or listener mail episode.
00:02:20
And I was like, I have already marked it.
00:02:23
Yes.
00:02:23
And listeners, we have said it so many times on the show, but we both actually do read each and every email that you send to us.
00:02:32
It's just us too, but we make that a priority.
00:02:35
We don't always have time to respond to all of them because it's just us too, as I just said.
00:02:40
But please keep sending them to us.
00:02:41
We love hearing from you.
00:02:43
We really do read them.
00:02:44
We appreciate them.
00:02:45
And we would not be here seven years later, seven seasons later, five hundred plus episodes without all of you.
00:02:53
So thank you so much.
00:02:55
Absolutely.
00:02:56
Okay.
00:02:56
So our first listener mail today comes to us from Jennifer K.
00:03:00
She wrote to us a couple of months ago, the following.
00:03:04
Hello, my 83-year-old mother, there has a depressed from her time modeling for Shei Mengguen in Paris in 1960 to 1961.
00:03:13
She has dementia.
00:03:14
And my sister and I are determining what to do with this dress.
00:03:18
We should be so grateful for any guidance as we feel it should be preserved.
00:03:22
Here are some photos.
00:03:23
The first two show my mother.
00:03:25
And the third is her now with the dress she has.
00:03:28
And the photos Jennifer includes are two newspaper clippings featuring her mother modeling for the House of Mengguen in Paris.
00:03:37
Both are in French and one of the articles is entitled translated to English of course.
00:03:41
The curtain rises on spring fashions and the woman and the other features for his mom wearing a Mengguen dress bearing the title the samurai silhouette and presumably the wide flat collar of the dress takes its inspiration from samurai armor.
00:03:56
And then the final photo Jennifer included was a photograph of her mother holding up a Mengguen dress which still resides in her closet.
00:04:04
And it is a black and white beauty of a dress.
00:04:07
It's a strapless cocktail gown and the bodice of the dress has rooching all over it.
00:04:12
It's a rooched black satin and the skirt it appears to be a bit of a bubble silhouette.
00:04:18
And meaning that the hand is gathered back up inside the skirt creating this bufant bubble.
00:04:24
There's a sweet little belt at the waist.
00:04:27
It appears to be made of a very luxurious black grigrain ribbon.
00:04:30
And there's a crystal button or a bobble at the center of the belt.
00:04:35
It's very chic and it's very much in keeping with that early 60s high-fashion silhouette that was omnipresent in French oak couture.
00:04:44
Which makes the question really what is the story of this Paris-based fashion house of Mengguen?
00:04:51
And while April and I have both seen references to this French house in the American fashion press over the years to be honest, neither of us knew much about Mengguen before Jennifer's email arrived in our inbox.
00:05:02
Which was one of the reasons we were so keen to feature this listener male because we love learning right alongside our listeners.
00:05:09
Yeah, so I definitely went into research mode.
00:05:12
And the first thing I did was I pulled out some of my books that are like these bigger, broader, secondary sources, overviews of women designers, overview of oak couturieres, overviews of the French fashion industry in general.
00:05:25
And you know what I found, Cass?
00:05:27
What did you find?
00:05:28
Oh, but you're nothing.
00:05:30
Not a zip-zero zilt, not a...
00:05:32
I needed that Mengguen was more on this kind of like obscure tip today, but it was quite well known at the time because it appears quite awesome in the pages of both French and American magazines from the fashion magazines,
00:05:45
of course, from the 1930s, '40s and '50s.
00:05:48
So aside from seeing it in these primary sources from these older magazines from decades past, I really had nothing to go on, which to be honest was what I was hoping would happen.
00:05:59
I really did want to have no other option, but to nerd out and return to those very sources like Vogue and Harper's Bazaar and Women's Rare Daily in the New York Times in order to like research and flesh out this snapshot of one of these couture houses,
00:06:13
which were important in their own day, but had now have fallen into obscurity.
00:06:18
Yes, and what we have on Earth is in no way exhaustive, but it is a rather Parisian tale of both art and fashion.
00:06:25
And calling all of the sources together, we learned that the House of Mengguen was founded by Madame Lucille Mengguen, who was born on November 13th, 1905, to Gen and Ampley Mengguen,
00:06:36
the noted phovest painter, and a close friend and peer of both the artist Henri Matisse and the fashion designer and art collector Paul Paris.
00:06:47
And Mengguen's work, likewise, pushed the boundaries of color theory and in addition to landscapes, on Henri Mengguen's wife and children were frequently his subject matter.
00:06:57
And I could not find out much about Lucille Mengguen's childhood, but it goes without saying that creativity was deeply valued in their household, her father being really truly one of the most cutting edge painters of that era's contemporary art scene in Paris.
00:07:13
And we learned from in 1948, Women's Rare Daily article that the House of Mengguen opened its doors in 1927.
00:07:21
So this bin when Lucille wasn't been about 21 or 22, so she was not very old when that's all went down.
00:07:29
And how when and where she received her fashion education, I cannot say.
00:07:35
But knowing what we already do, Cass, I'm going to go out on a limb here and presume that she probably spent some time training in the Atelier's out of another Christopher House or Christopher House's plural as these types of apprenticeships were very foundational to how the French Occouture industry operated at this time.
00:07:53
And given the fact that her father was incredibly close friends with Paul Paquet, it could be possibly him.
00:07:59
I'm not, I have no evidence of this.
00:08:02
This is just conjecture.
00:08:03
But I did also find this one quote from Lucille Mengguen, admitting quote, "For creations have always been influenced by Pa Ray in the domain of color."
00:08:14
And quote, and then her skill as a colorist was also confirmed.
00:08:20
And as other newspeople, article I found in a French Tunisian newspaper from around that same time, which called her a born colorist.
00:08:26
And the limited press in American sources on Mengguen during the 1920s and 30s really paints this picture of the houses doing a lot of innovative sportswear,
00:08:36
including golf ensembles with detachable sleeves.
00:08:40
And interestingly enough, sportswear was also held as a scaperally.
00:08:44
It got first got her start in fashion at the urging of Paul Paquet also.
00:08:49
So, and this was the exact same year Mengguen was founded in 19, or the House of Penguin was founded in 1927.
00:08:56
So these ladies were really tapping into the same zeitgeist of the era with these types of comfortable clothing for sport or everyday wear.
00:09:05
And that was desired by the bold and increasingly independent women of the late 1920s and into the 30s.
00:09:12
Well, when he was the head designer for the House, her husband on during a Martinez ran the business operations.
00:09:19
Her brother Pierre Mengguen was depending on the source that you read because there's some conflicting information here.
00:09:25
He was either the director of the House or he was in charge of sales.
00:09:29
During the 1930s, the House of Mengguen would go on to establish itself as this sort of smaller but well-respected player in the French fashion industry and, quote,
00:09:40
devoted itself exclusively to private clientele.
00:09:43
Well-known in France, but maybe less are known in the US.
00:09:47
In the US, it was seen as a, quote, young and comparatively inexpensive firm whose models were bought by top New York houses per resale to the private customers who liked the label.
00:09:58
So basically, they were going over and buying the garments and just bringing them back to the United States.
00:10:04
And then moving into the 1940s, coverage on the House of Mengguen in the French fashion press indicates that the house most likely the cast remained open during World War II.
00:10:13
And then Nazi occupation of Paris, of course, many Couture houses, the many fashion brands did because they, it wasn't just about keeping their own businesses open.
00:10:22
It was about keeping the economy of brands functioning.
00:10:25
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:28
People fed.
00:10:29
And also to one of these 1940s sources that I read from during the war noted that her salons were both dazzlingly decorated with paintings by her father, Henri Mengguen,
00:10:40
as well as Raoul Duffy.
00:10:42
Yet again, another connection back to Apalpahre.
00:10:45
I'm just saying, Pahre keeps popping his head up.
00:10:48
Yeah, and these are, and people really ran together and these artistic circles, they stayed in touch a lot of the time.
00:10:54
So, yes.
00:10:55
And so 1948, 1949, so post-World War II, we see an increased amount of press.
00:11:01
We see an increased amount of press on the House, which detailed its expansion and its relocation in Paris to 12 rue-François-Premier.
00:11:09
And a fun fact, especially for any of you who know the city well, the location of 12 rue-François-Premier is directly across the street from where the Gallery Dior,
00:11:20
or the Dior Museum in Paris is located today.
00:11:23
And that was also the Dior Museum is where Dior opened his house in 1947.
00:11:28
It's the original location.
00:11:30
So in 1948, the House of Manguen moved and hired additional staff, including the contest to aid in, who was formally associated with the House of Scaparelli.
00:11:39
As the head of sales, the contest was charged with expanding the house by liaising with buyers from different department stores and copy houses, who wished to license manguen designs.
00:11:49
And things seemed to be going pretty well for the House during the first part of the 1950s, until a headline in the French newspaper Le Monde tells us that the House of Manguen gave up their official designation as an Okotour House in 1956.
00:12:04
I'm not exactly sure why.
00:12:06
And by 1961, the House closed its stores permanently, and its former work-rains, this is really interesting, were taken over by none other than the brand-new,
00:12:16
new-plemented, not even open yet for business, House of Yves Saint Laurent.
00:12:22
So it seems that Jennifer's mom was right there modeling for manguen around the same time, and it's the final years of 1960, 1961.
00:12:31
And of course, this is a really pivotal period for fashion history, because we're beginning to see the changing of the guard, so to speak, as interests in Okotour declines in favor of the rise of ready-to-wear.
00:12:45
So why is it taking over the former home of this Ketour House to build his own brand, which later would become very much associated with the establishment of early ready-to-wear brands?
00:12:56
It's rather prescient in terms of things to come.
00:12:59
Okay, so that's a rather brief summary of the history of the House of Manguen, and there is clearly more work to be done on this, and perhaps some are of our listeners out there have.
00:13:09
And if so, she does an email.
00:13:10
We'd love to hear about what you have to say.
00:13:12
And of course, we will share that with Jennifer, and that actually doesn't April completely answer Jennifer's question about what she and her sister should do with her mom's dress in terms of its preservation.
00:13:24
And really, this is a pretty straightforward answer.
00:13:27
Looking at the photos, it seems like it should be kept in an acid-free garment box and stored flat.
00:13:33
Yes, especially because with these strapless garments, even in your strapless garments that comes with those little support straps for the purpose of hanging it, over time, the weight of the garment will become too much.
00:13:44
The straps will either break or where they're sewn to the textile itself that can shatter where they're sewn in.
00:13:50
So Jennifer, if you and your sister would like to keep the dress in your family and preserve it for austerity, we would really recommend checking out the offerings of archival garment boxes.
00:14:02
And two of my favorite places for that are Gaylord Archival or University products.
00:14:08
They have different sizes.
00:14:10
I think I looked it up and they, one of them was cost you about $55 or something.
00:14:14
And then we would also recommend using acid-free tissue paper to line the box and kind of create all the garment where it's needed.
00:14:22
And you might even go so far as to consider padding out the skirts from the inside and the bodice a little bit with this acid-free tissue because that's going to help it retain a little bit of its three-dimensional shape.
00:14:33
We have to remember garments are designed to be inhabited by bodies.
00:14:38
So when you store them flat, giving them a little support like that helps to not strain the textile while it's in flat storage.
00:14:45
Yeah.
00:14:46
And once it's in its box, you'll want to keep it somewhere in low light and with relatively stable temperature and humidity.
00:14:52
Yes, friends, the addict of your house isn't necessarily your friend for storing textiles and textile based objects, nor is the basement.
00:15:02
Sunlight is truly your enemy and we have all seen how fabrics left in the sun for extended periods of time will become bleached by sunlight, exposure alone.
00:15:10
So anyways Jennifer, we hope that was helpful.
00:15:13
Thank you so much for sharing your mom's story and giving us an excuse to do some research on a fashion house that we knew very little about.
00:15:21
And on that note, we will take a short sponsor break, more listener mail when we come back.
00:15:25
[Music]
00:15:30
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00:15:34
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00:16:46
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00:16:47
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00:17:00
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00:17:09
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00:17:41
Welcome back, Dress Listeners.
00:17:45
Cass, what do you have for us next?
00:17:48
Okay, our next listener mail is in response to something from one of our most popular episodes, which originally aired in 2019 and titled The History of Glitter.
00:17:59
Listeners Susan P wrote to us all the way back in January of this year, and to say, hi, I love the podcast.
00:18:06
I enjoy listening out of order.
00:18:08
Your pod about glitter interested me.
00:18:11
And you mentioned your uncertainty that there was glitter used in World War II, which is true.
00:18:16
All those aluminum toothpaste tubes collected for the war effort were made into strips and dropped from planes to float down as anti-radar countermeasures.
00:18:26
See Winston Churchill's closing the ring, which is volume five of his history of the Second World War.
00:18:31
He called it, quote, unquote, "window," but its purpose was to obscure.
00:18:35
It may be the only recycled glitter in the history of glitter.
00:18:39
Thanks for so many great episodes.
00:18:41
Well, thank you, Susan, for your email, and thank you for listening to the episodes out of order.
00:18:48
Yeah, recycled glitter is a rarity recycled, I'm saying here, because we are proud to say that eco-friendly and biodegradable glitter is not a rarity.
00:18:58
It is now widely available on the mass market.
00:19:02
And I've said it a couple times, I think, on the show now that it's a whole thing in York at clubs, like burlesque clubs and different things that use glitter and performances.
00:19:11
Oftentimes, it will make a point to let everybody know that it is biodegradable and that their business is not glitter bombing our planet.
00:19:18
Well, speaking of things that sparkle, our next listener mail comes from the UK, where Alexandra wrote to us a few months ago with an Instagram account to follow.
00:19:30
Yes, she wrote, "Hey, Casting April, I've been a long time fan of dressed ever since the beginning of the pandemic, and I've since managed to catch up on every episode of your podcast."
00:19:41
You guys really do a fantastic job.
00:19:43
Yes, thank you.
00:19:45
And I wanted to give you guys a recommendation.
00:19:49
There is an Instagram account called at moonhoney.jory that is so much fun to follow.
00:19:55
Melissa is a Goldsmith who posts almost daily videos about ancient historical jewelry.
00:20:00
She shares information on ancient jewelry making techniques, the materials, the people who wore the jewelry, some pieces that are ancient, but look modern, etc.
00:20:09
I think she'd be a great person to have on the podcast or at least give a little follow and shout out.
00:20:14
Anyway, looking forward to the latest episode and hoping that one day I'll be able to make it on one of your trips, maybe NYC.
00:20:20
I did my own little dressed inspired tour of Paris back in March.
00:20:25
Lots of love, Alexandra, from the United Kingdom.
00:20:28
Thank you, Alexandra.
00:20:30
Yeah, and I have to say this is an amazing recommendation.
00:20:34
I did not already follow them.
00:20:36
I have so much enjoyed following Melissa's content, and I've loved learning so much more about jewelry history, which I didn't really know what's done about.
00:20:45
And she also oftentimes includes art history content in her posts, which as we all know, my background is first as an art historian.
00:20:54
So it's a super fun account to follow.
00:20:56
Excellent suggestion, Alexandra.
00:20:59
Dress endorsed that's at moonhoney.jory for Melissa's unique expertise.
00:21:05
Yes.
00:21:06
Okay, Cass, should we do one there?
00:21:10
Yes, let's do it in April.
00:21:13
I'm not even sure if you've seen this one yet, because it just came into our inbox this morning.
00:21:18
And it's about an episode that we just released on Wednesday.
00:21:22
So it's hot off the press and Emma Z wrote to us and said, just wanted to drop a note to tell you how much I loved the toddler safety episode.
00:21:30
I am one of a team of people who make sure the children's wear at our brand is safe and legal.
00:21:35
We had much fun discussing the items you covered, and we were trying to go see the pudding at the V&A.
00:21:41
Much nerdy fun was had considering which of these things would be considered safe today.
00:21:46
So nice to hear something on children's wear.
00:21:48
We usually get completely forgotten about on fashion podcasts.
00:21:51
Thank you.
00:21:51
Thank you, Emma.
00:21:53
We appreciate this so much.
00:21:54
So basically she listened to the episode and then emailed us the same day.
00:21:58
Yeah, this was actually a really fun episode to research.
00:22:02
And friends, check out our reels this week for all of the crazy imagery that we referenced in the episode.
00:22:09
That imagery is actually what started this ball rolling in terms of the subject matter.
00:22:14
And Cass, I can't believe this is really nearly the end of season seven of this show.
00:22:20
I know that both you and I are very much looking forward to having a little annual hiatus from creating new episodes.
00:22:27
We do them twice a week, friends.
00:22:29
So it's no small feat.
00:22:30
Now this doesn't necessarily mean that Cass and I aren't creating new content.
00:22:35
We still are just not new episode content.
00:22:38
We might be creating things for our new class, as well as possibly contributing to a new book project.
00:22:44
Yes, we are going to try to take some time off, but in the meantime, before the podcast comes back on, we will have launched our new class, which is on the golden age of oak cature.
00:22:53
And actually that will be coming your way next week, just in time for the holiday register.
00:22:59
Yes, to register.
00:23:00
And just in time for the holidays, if you want to get to to yourself or someone you love.
00:23:04
But yes, so we will be announcing that class next week as promised.
00:23:09
And you can register for what is sure to be a very fun and insightful class.
00:23:14
It's going to be a two-parter April and I are going to co-teach it.
00:23:17
And we're going to do a little bit of a deep dive into this golden age of the oak cature as we, as we briefly mentioned in the house when we were talking about the house of man Gwen, the 1950s is the golden age because it's the last age of the oak cature.
00:23:31
Things will change dramatically with the rise of ready to wear in the 1960s.
00:23:34
And who knows, maybe we'll follow that class up with a 1960s course.
00:23:38
That is your area of specialty.
00:23:40
Also two friends, we keep saying this that we're going to announce our dressed fashion history tour of Paris soon.
00:23:45
We have had so many meetings about this this week.
00:23:48
So we are, I don't even say, want to say we're knee deep or waist deep in the planning process.
00:23:54
We are neck deep.
00:23:55
Yes, planning process.
00:23:57
You can shoot us an email if you would like to get on the first to know list.
00:24:02
We already have dozens of people on it already.
00:24:05
That trip is going to sell out absolutely for sure pretty quickly.
00:24:09
If you want to be on that list to be the first to know, shoot us an email at helloatjabresthistory.com and dressed history.com is also our website where you can find out lots more information about our upcoming classes tours or basically anything else that we're up to.
00:24:26
Yes, and that does also include, as somebody else mentioned in listener mail, a New York City day tours are coming your way friends in this spring, probably in April.
00:24:36
Again, we're finalizing a lot of things, but we have to get to New York April to see the real close real lives real lives real close exhibition in New York Historical Society before that closes.
00:24:47
And then also our dear friend Colleen Hill, who is now the senior curator at the FIT museum and has an exhibition opening on the cabinet of curiosities.
00:24:58
So yeah, fashion's role in the cabinet of curiosities, which is the result of her PhD research.
00:25:05
Yes.
00:25:06
Also speaking of New York friends, my fashion history tours of the Met are back.
00:25:11
They were on pause for a little bit while I was in Paris and a lot of you wrote to us asking why there are no available dates that you could book.
00:25:19
And that's because I was not in New York, but I am back now.
00:25:22
So you can also head over to dressed history.com to sign up either on Tuesday mornings with me at the Met or Friday evening tours.
00:25:30
And then once again, I can do tours for your group or organization at other times.
00:25:34
You just need to connect with me and advance to get that all set up and you can email me at hello@dressedhistory.com for that.
00:25:41
Which is of course our email address.
00:25:43
If you want to pop us a line, say hello, send us some listener mail.
00:25:49
With that little tease, I think it does it for us today, dress listeners.
00:25:54
May you consider how lark about the history of fashion has impacted the way you look at your wardrobe next time you get dressed.
00:26:01
And if you would like visual content connected to each week's episodes, follow us on Instagram, dress underscore podcast.
00:26:08
And you'll definitely want to check out the Instagram content for this week in relationship to Wednesday's episode.
00:26:13
Lots of fun rules coming your way on that.
00:26:15
And of course, as we mentioned, the holidays are just around the corner.
00:26:18
So check out more than 150 of our favorite fashion history titles on our dress bookshelf at bookshop.org/shop/stress or at the link in our show notes.
00:26:29
Send your loved ones your wish list or buy for someone you love, including yourself.
00:26:34
Love dress, but want to skip the ads, consider subscribing to the ad-free version of the show for just $3 a month.
00:26:40
You can find a link to do so in our show notes as well.
00:26:43
As always, thank you for your continued support.
00:26:46
More dressed coming your way next week.
00:26:49
Dress in history of fashion is a production of dress media.
00:26:58
